The Noise at Concerts

[Ed209]

I know it's this old chestnut again; I was going to post this as a reply in this thread:

https://www.tinnitustalk.com/thread...re-they-with-32-db-nrr-custom-earplugs.33299/

It's probably worth reading the thread above to gain some context. However, I thought this probably deserved its own thread.

Here you will hear from the legendary sound engineer, Big Mick, talking about sound levels at the Metallica gig he was setting up. He also talks about what he believes is the trend in live music, and that is quieter, more controlled conditions. I share this opinion and have stated this many times.

Big Mick has been going a long time and he has seen it all. He has worked with - and managed in some cases - all these bands and artists:

Metallica (since 1985 to current day)
Judas Priest
Ozzy Osbourne
Def Leppard
The Wildhearts (managed and engineered)
Steve Vai
Queens of the Stone Age
Slipknot
Led Zeppelin (engineered their reunion at the O2)

If you skip to 18:10 you will hear him talking about the noise levels and how they set up and calculate everything. It's worth listening to if you want to gauge how loud 100dBA is at an average level over time (leq). It's very interesting what he says about the MIXhalo system as well. Keep listening and you'll see what I mean.

 

[Ed209]

To those who didn't listen, he said the PA was measured at 99dBA from a metre away (30 minute leq). He also said that he believes in the future there won't be any speakers at concerts and that we'll move to a system where there will be a network of WiFi routers relaying the concert to individual earbuds instead. These would be handed out as you enter the venue, and he believes it would give endorsement opportunities to companies like Sony, Bose, etc, to be the providers. They may even sell and market these earphones as something like "the concert series."As he says, this way the volume is in the hands of each individual and they can have the concert as loud or as quiet as they want it.

 

[Julien87]

Thank you Ed. Very interesting!

 

[Ed209]

Thank you Ed. Very interesting!

This is why I laugh when I see posts like "cinemas are 130dB" and other such high measurements for other things. I also find it hard to believe NFL games are 140dB. They could maybe clip that for a nanosecond, measured in an impulse window, but as an leq for the entire game it seems implausible. This would mean that the NFL game has 10,000 times more energy than that Metallica concert. I would say that the average leq for an NFL game is likely below 100dBA.

Like I've always said, most people on here underestimate how loud 100dB is as a continuous sound.

 

[Julien87]

Yeah.. I guess those people never heard of the threshold of pain. If cinemas were 130 dB they would be empty

 

[Ed209]

Yeah.. I guess those people never heard of the threshold of pain. If cinemas were 130 dB they would be empty

That's exactly what I've said before. You wouldn't get people sitting through a movie in pain; they would leave and complain in high numbers at that level. In fact, that's loud enough for plaster to be shaken loose from the walls and ceilings.

 

[GregCA]

To those who didn't listen, he said the PA was measured at 99dBA from a metre away (30 minute leq). He also said that he believes in the future there won't be any speakers at concerts and that we'll move to a system where there will be a network of WiFi routers relaying the concert to individual earbuds instead. These would be handed out as you enter the venue, and he believes it would give endorsement opportunities to companies like Sony, Bose, etc, to be the providers. They may even sell and market these earphones as something like "the concert series."As he says, this way the volume is in the hands of each individual and they can have the concert as loud or as quiet as they want it.

That's interesting. I wonder how they are planning to deal with the bass, as it doesn't quite shake your body when delivered via headphones.
When I play my e-drums, I have something called a "throne thumper" that makes my throne vibrate to give me the bass body sensation that my headphones can't. It's amazingly realistic.

The other potential issue with the tech is the latency/delay induced by the wireless protocol. It could lead to a very perceptible desync between the stage and what is heard. Good challenges!

 

[Ed209]

That's interesting. I wonder how they are planning to deal with the bass, as it doesn't quite shake your body when delivered via headphones.
When I play my e-drums, I have something called a "throne thumper" that makes my throne vibrate to give me the bass body sensation that my headphones can't. It's amazingly realistic.

The other potential issue with the tech is the latency/delay induced by the wireless protocol. It could lead to a very perceptible desync between the stage and what is heard. Good challenges!

The issue with "feeling" the concert must be something these companies have considered. I'm sure by the time it happens (if it ever does) that they'd have figured all this stuff out. Interesting concept, but I feel many would resist a paradigm change as big as this. However, time can slowly change well-known conventions and people will, probably, gradually accept it.

 

[Ed209]

@GregCA, in fact, he does mention your point and says that maybe they'll use some subs just to add some 'feel'. He also mentions thumpers.

 

[kmohoruk]

Very interesting info @Ed209 . That would be really neat to see if concerts went that way.

While I haven't been back to a "big screen" movie in a couple years. I've often wondered how loud bigger movie theatres actually are. The big movie theatres here in Western Canada are "Cineplex Odeon", and I remember when I was younger coming out of movies and my hearing "feeling" like it was muffled. Even my mom and dad who still go there to see movies, say that for them they find it to be very loud.

While I'm not the biggest movie goer (even before my T), I've been to a couple smaller indie movie theatres and haven't had any issues when wearing a pair of ear plugs.

 

[Bill Bauer]

I also find it hard to believe NFL games are 140dB. They could maybe clip that for a nanosecond, measured in an impulse window, but as an leq for the entire game it seems implausible.

I don't think I ever read anyone implying that various loud events produce noise that is at a constant 140 dB. It was also clear that we are talking about the peak that is there for a very short time. The messages often imply that this fraction of a second is all it takes to do some SERIOUS damage. (By the way, I got T as a result of an incident that had lasted a fraction of a second.)

 

[Ed209]

I don't think I ever read anyone implying that various loud events produce noise that is at a constant 140 dB. It was also clear that we are talking about the peak that is there for a very short time. The messages often imply that this fraction of a second is all it takes to do some SERIOUS damage. (By the way, I got T as a result of an incident that had lasted a fraction of a second.)

That's the whole point though, Bill. Using the cinema example, I don't believe you would see a peak of 130dB in 99.9% of cinemas. The important measurement is the LAeq (leq) as this gives you a weighted average of exposure over time (and this is crucial). If you take a fast-acting decibel meter and measured various things whilst out and about, the LAFmax may reach above 100dB quite a few times (and this may seem alarming), but these measurements could be around 20ms, meaning they would be insignificant in terms of hearing damage.

On the flip side: if you are in an environment that has a 15 minute (or more) leq of 100dB (and you have no hearing protection) then it's time to worry. It's the combination of noise and time that's critical, unless you are dealing with really loud impulse noises like explosives.

The short story to all this is that too many people are over-exaggerating the dangers for certain activities and everyday sounds. And there are a lot of people on here unnecessarily worrying about their environment, 24/7, and have resorted to using earplugs (and muffs in some cases) in their house. We all know when sound becomes dangerous, almost instinctively, and at this point, you can use plugs and/or muffs, or just get out of there.

 

[Bill Bauer]

The short story to all this is that too many people are over-exaggerating the dangers for certain activities and everyday sounds.

It is better to over-exaggerate and to overprotect. That's because all it takes to make one's body uninhabitable is underprotecting once (for a fraction of a second) at the wrong place and wrong time.

have resorted to using earplugs (and muffs in some cases) in their house

Assuming their house is quiet, that is certainly the wrong thing to do.

 

[Ed209]

It is better to over-exaggerate and to overprotect.

No, it's not.

 

[Bill Bauer]

No, it's not.

I explained the reasoning behind my statement. I guess you don't have any arguments that could address my reasoning, but that's ok.

 

[Ed209]

I explained the reasoning behind my statement. I guess you don't have any arguments that could address my reasoning, but that's ok.

We've been through it lots of times, Bill. We are just rehashing the same arguments.

Firstly, you happily live a life of seclusion so there is no impact on your quality of life or state of mind. For others, however, it can make one's anxiety and/or depression worse and it can lead to OCD in the form of phonophobia. This can have catastrophic consequences on one's life and is not something that can be easily dismissed.

After my tinnitus became worse (after a ridiculously loud gig) I started over protecting because of what I was reading on here. When I left the house I put earplugs in to protect against "outside noises." In my case, I became very averse to sound because I was conditioning my behaviour this way. My tinnitus kept spiking and my ears were more sensitive, and more importantly, my life was utter, miserable, shit. It destroyed me. In the end, I told myself enough was enough, and I stopped doing it.

Now I feel a million times better and I'm relearning my boundaries with sound. There's a stark difference between walking outside in a city and going to a concert. We all lose hearing as we age anyway, and there's nothing we can do about it. So, the moral of the story is to not let tinnitus dictate to you all day long, unless you want mental health issues.

Live your lives and create happy memories. Don't create memories of you hiding in the corner of your house with earplugs stuck in your head and muffs firmly placed over the top.

This in no way means that we shouldn't protect our ears, but we should do so when we are actually in a dangerously loud environment.

 

[Bill Bauer]

Live your lives and create happy memories.

The problem is that some happy memories will come at a cost of being unhappy for years to come...

 

[linearb]

The concerts I've been to post-tinnitus with a dB meter, when not standing right next to a speaker, are not alarmingly louder than walking on a sidewalk in the middle of a city on a summer afternoon.

Meter says 95? I move back 15 yards. Meter says 80-85? Everything is fine. Meter says 70? You're at an acoustic folk show, bro.

I wear 33db foam plugs, sometimes I wear slim-profile muffs under a hoodie, too. Only do this a couple times a year, but that mostly has to do with how few bands I like come to Vermont, plus the cost of babysitting...

I stick to 1-2 beers at a show, and don't smoke pot or do anything else that's going to amp up my sensory apparatus.

 

[Jason C]

I wonder if Big Mick has tinnitus as he seems oblivious to hearing damage despite the fact Lars and James both suffer tinnitus from loud music.
I know myself from seeing Guns n Roses in 2010 and that was loud as hell (before I had any understanding of loud noise damage) my hearing was terrible for a week after that. (No tinnitus)
Now I use special moulded ear plugs for loud environments.

 

[kmohoruk]

We all lose hearing as we age anyway, and there's nothing we can do about it. So, the moral of the story is to not let tinnitus dictate to you all day long, unless you want mental health issues

I think that's something that gets lost on this forum sometimes. We all lose hearing as we age naturally. The T clinician who I saw years ago told me about that and said that it's just apart of life - no matter how well you protect.

In a weird way I found it sort of empowering. Live it up, enjoy life (while still protecting around reasonably loud sounds of course )

 

[Sam Bridge]

I found it quite annoying how Mick was so oblivious to loud noise. I assume he doesn't have tinnitus as he doesn't seem to care.

 

[linearb]

Chiming in because I saw Kurt Vile & The Violators this week. I wasn't paying much attention but I checked the volume levels a couple times from where were were (back of venue, partially because of proximity to bar, partially noise, partially because my wife can see better from there) and it was in the high 80s to mid 90s, I never observed anything much over 95. This is consistent with what I know of general industry practice of keeping the level in the 98-105db range right at the sound board, which was both in front of us, and positioned so that the maximum volume from all the stacks would get dumped there.

Anyway, for me, with earplugs, the noise was a total non event, we enjoyed the show and my ears were completely normal afterwards. I did bring muffs, which I experimented with, but they didn't seem to do much on top of foam plugs at that volume level and obviously they're bulky (I do double up for louder stuff like power saws).

I didn't feel great when I woke up this morning, but a Mayan Mule followed by a Paloma (dinner) followed by some kind of high-ABV beer (at venue) followed by 6 hours of sleep will do that to you.

Kurt Vile has tinnitus, so that might inform the reasonable mixing at his shows. On the other hand, I think this show was actually louder than the Mountain Goats at the same venue a few months ago; in that case I had to work my way about halfway up to see volumes peaking into the 90s.

The show that fucked my hearing in 2010 was in a tiny concrete box of a venue, and I'll never know for sure but I'd be sorta shocked if there was stuff hitting 120 or close to on big hits. It was absolutely insane, felt more like an indoor firing range than a concert.

 

[Ed209]

The show that fucked my hearing in 2010 was in a tiny concrete box of a venue, and I'll never know for sure but I'd be sorta shocked if there was stuff hitting 120 or close to on big hits. It was absolutely insane, felt more like an indoor firing range than a concert.

Same for me. It was a gig under a solid brick archway and concrete floor. The sound just bounced around everyone and it was very harsh on the ears.

 

[Jazzer]

Same for me. It was a gig under a solid brick archway and concrete floor. The sound just bounced around everyone and it was very harsh on the ears.

In which case those (pseudo) "musicians" are both idiots and criminals.
I wonder if you can guess which syndrome I genuinely wish them - - - - - - - - ??

 

[Jazzer]

The problem is that some happy memories will come at a cost of being unhappy for years to come...

Noise volume wrecked my hearing, and to a significant extent wrecked the life I knew and loved.
I do not have phonophobia.
I do not fear phonophobia.
I know when noises are dangerous by the degree of discomfort/pain/distress they cause me.
The blender in my home needs protecting from.
As also does an hour or more of vacuuming, which adds to an already substantial noise in my head.
It sounds very loud to me, and unpleasant.
I use ear plugs.
This is nothing whatever to do with fear, but everything to do with avoiding discomfort.
Just plain common sense.
B.B. has it right on the need for caution, IMNSHO.

 

[Michael B]

Saw Paul McCartney at Petco Park last night. Even though it was outdoors and I wasn't anywhere near the speakers, it was still loud. I wore earplugs and still needed to plug my ears with my fingers at times. Looked around and saw very few people wearing earplugs. Offered them to my wife, but even she refused them and she has tinnitus. Fortunately my ears are no worse than they usually are but I'm sure they would be had I not come prepared.

Just a word of caution.

 

[annV]

Offered them to my wife, but even she refused them and she has tinnitus.

Why did she refuse them? Did you tell her that her tinnitus could become jet engine loud?

 

[Ken219]

Looked around and saw very few people wearing earplugs

The more the merrier?

 

[Digital Doc]

@Michael B

Thanks for sharing, and I decided a while ago I would not be going to any concerts again. Glad you seem to be ok, although be aware that sometimes a T-spike can take a few days to develop.

With properly placed earplugs, putting fingers in your ears should not add much more protection. Perhaps in that situation you are better off putting your hands over your ears, which would be analogous to ear muffs, a sort of double protection.

 

[Michael B]

Why did she refuse them? Did you tell her that her tinnitus could become jet engine loud?

She's been dealing with me and my tinnitus. You would think that would be enough to convince her to wear them.