Theatres/Performances/Laughing and Clapping People

[linearb]

Speaking of apps, I have been using Professional dB Meter on Android. I just got a new phone (nexus 6p) - so I figured I'd do a side by side with a real meter. I slapped ear muffs on and then dry fired a 1700fps BB gun inside a closed room; the real meter showed 118 db, and the phone showed a peak of 71. I was able to get the phone to register a bit closer to 80 by clapping my hands a bunch, which the real meter captured at closer to 95.

So, my take is that this combination of phone/app is very inaccurate, and it gets worse with very short impulse noises.

I'd like to do the same comparison with an iPhone, since overall it's a lot easier to make accurate apps for an Apple device than an Android (because all the hardware is identical).

PS Take the example of people who get T from a kiss in the ear . How is that possible if we take OSHA for granted ?

Don't take OSHA for granted; @Nucleo just posted a bunch of stuff in another thread about how threshold shifts are not a reliable indicator of damage. This included a study which showed that rats exposed to 65db of continuous noise for 10 hours a day, ended up with demonstrable, aberrant changes to the parts of their brains that deal with audio processing. Additionally, and anecdotally, a researcher that I have been working with as part of a tinnitus treatment study that I am a lab rat in, told me that when they induce tinnitus in experimental animals, the volumes used do not produce a permanent threshold shift. Meaning, the whole idea that a permanent threshold shift is required to induce tinnitus or other problems, is complete nonsense.

Unfortunately, it's very, very difficult to assess things like aberrant neuroplastic changes or even neurotoxicity in living humans, so the pure-tone audiometry test remains the most widespread tool for assessing hearing...

 

[Zorro!]

Let's say from this post I feel that the intention of the poster is definitely not about help. It's pure criticism and patronizing. As well as the 'sweetie - gem' thing. Of course, one can always say the nastiest thing and then say ''he was only trying to help'' and feel excused.

I agree. Whoever said that is a total bastard. Throw him in the Bastille!

 

[linearb]

As well as the 'sweetie - gem' thing. Of course, one can always say the nastiest thing and then say ''he was only trying to help'

I read 'gem' comment that as very deliberate, and very spiteful. I would try not to take it personally; this is a stressful condition which we all have. When people engage in lashing out which shows an obvious and fundamental lack of empathy, I think the best thing to do is assume that it's because they have a problem, and not you.

Put differently, if someone genuinely thought you were being a bit too obsessed with this condition and wanted to reply in a way that is actually helpful, they probably would have said something like

Gosia, from reading your posts I think you are very distressed, and it seems possible that the amount of anxiety you're experiencing has a lot to do with the way you're thinking about your condition. It's certainly advisable to avoid excessively loud noises, but once you've been exposed to something, it does no good to obsess or fret over it.

Note that I'm not down on @Zorro! here any more than I'm down on anyone else. If you look back over my approximately six million posts here, you will find plenty of places where I am snarky, spiteful, or basically unhelpful. I can pretty much guarantee you that in every case, I was not in a great mood myself; this doesn't excuse my prior behavior. My point is just that tinnitus sucks, and just like every other health condition related forum I've read, when people are the most hurtful it's usually a reflection of their own struggle (or, perhaps, in some cases an attempt at "tough love", which I believe has its place, but perhaps not on support forums except in cases where people are clearly enabling unhealthy behavior).

 

[linearb]

One point of self-criticism to what I just posted: I basically said, "whenever someone gives me a hard time, I assume that it's their problem, and not my own." A very obvious response to that thought is, "wow, doesn't that pretty much give you license to be as self-absorbed, arrogant and egomaniacal as you want, without any guilt or self awareness?"

Yes, it sure does, and that can make life pretty comfortable Seriously, though, I make some effort to differentiate between honest criticism spoken from a place of wanting to be helpful, and basic snark.

 

[Ed209]

@linearb

I agree, the phone apps are all useless. They're about as useful as a condom machine in the Vatican. Every phone has different hardware and non of them have a calibrated mic. The iPhone can only go to 100db, I tried various apps and in my case based on various comparisons they all ran on the high side. To be precise one app called decibel 10th which seemed to be one of the most highly rated was out by a whopping 13db.

 

[Zorro!]

One point of self-criticism to what I just posted: I basically said, "whenever someone gives me a hard time, I assume that it's their problem, and not my own." A very obvious response to that thought is, "wow, doesn't that pretty much give you license to be as self-absorbed, arrogant and egomaniacal as you want, without any guilt or self awareness?"

Yes, it sure does, and that can make life pretty comfortable Seriously, though, I make some effort to differentiate between honest criticism spoken from a place of wanting to be helpful, and basic snark.

So basically the theme of what I said was okay, just not the way I said it?

 

[Gosia]

@linearb , good points there I have definitely never taken OSHA guidelines for granted and that's exactly what I'm forcing here in my last posts..The common opinion is that the phone apps will show more db than there really are..but you just proved it can be the opposite. Which means I can't know how loud my performance was. That we don't have to feel uncomfortably with the sound and have the damage done anyway - it seems to be a common opinion among the specialists. Once the spike is there, there's nothing else left than just hoping it will pass, really..Still, I know you do loud activities like riding a motorbike..Aren't you afraid you will seriously worsen your condition ?
Just as an anecdote..the source of noise can just be so unpredictible..yesterday I was on the streets of Brussels ..when suddenly two guys appeared on the street ..all dressed with empty soda cans ! there must have been a few hundreds of them clenching, you can't imagine the noise that made.
http://images.google.fr/imgres?imgu...ved=0ahUKEwjHqZ7DmNLKAhXItBoKHSdaDfsQrQMIITAA

 

[linearb]

So basically the theme of what I said was okay, just not the way I said it?

This will quickly devolve into a semantic argument about what constitutes the "theme". As far as the tone/emotional theme, I thought those posts were aggressive to the point of being borderline antagonistic, and my personal opinion is that people in a distress state, in general, can't be antagonized into a less distressed state.

Note that I'm not a qualified mental health practitioner, and I'm also not trying to be very judgey about any of this, because as I said before, I have made plenty of unhelpful/antagonistic posts myself.

Still, I know you do loud activities like riding a motorbike..Aren't you afraid you will seriously worsen your condition ?

I limit time on the bike and my goal for the next year or two is to ditch it for an electric motorcycle (which are much quieter, and also sort of insanely expensive). But I have to admit that if I was really taking the long-term health view, I probably wouldn't ride a motorcycle at all, it's so fundamentally dangerous that you have to be sort of brain-damaged to think it's a reasonable pastime.

That said, my bike is generally in the 100dB range, which means 32dB NR plugs get you down into the upper 60s. So, the only thing you really need to worry about is bone conduction from deep bass (which is why electric bikes are attractive).

All of this is a bit of a crapshoot. There are people who continue to go to concerts for years and never have their tinnitus get worse, and people who avoid all loud sounds and still get worse tinnitus. Past a point I just don't think it's worth thinking about; it seems pretty unlikely to me that tinnitus will be my biggest health concern if I live a sufficient period of time, and even if it is, having spent a bunch of time worrying about that now isn't going to make it less crappy if it happens.

 

[dboy]

So basically the theme of what I said was okay, just not the way I said it?

For what it is worth, I thought Zorro was trying to be helpful, was a bit insensitive and self-righteous in how he went about it, and then failed to accept feedback on that when I waded in. It got a bit blown out of proportion. Being insensitive is easy - I've done it in support before and it feels horrible when you realise. No sense hanging on to that.

That said, my bike is generally in the 100dB range, which means 32dB NR plugs get you down into the upper 60s.

Just for info I'm not sure this is correct. I used to think the same until I read this post:

These star wars movies are way too damn loud.
Remember, guys, that 30db ear plugs don't actually reduce noise by 30db. The math goes a bit different. If I remember correctly, earplugs with a rating of 32dB actually reduce loudness by 12.5dB.

See this link for examples and an explanation:
www.coopersafety.com/noisereduction.aspx

 

[Gosia]

All of this is a bit of a crapshoot. There are people who continue to go to concerts for years and never have their tinnitus get worse, and people who avoid all loud sounds and still get worse tinnitus. crappy if it happens.

My point exactly .. Still, I think worrying about it is somewhat inevitable, at least in ..first years? If I could sleep with any kind of tinnitus, maybe it wouldn't be that crippling, but louder t means losing functionality in my case so .. I really hope for my spike to calm down. I was aware of the fact that it may one day get louder no matter what I do..and I did't think about it on everyday basis. But still, I'd rather not do anything to make it worse, consciously so in general, I avoid or limit all the loudness I can.

I just went through a very similar topic which raises the same questions as are raised here..and as usual, there are two sides..Same arguments were given to @Ed.. https://www.tinnitustalk.com/threads/spike-after-cinema.12577/
And I learnt something new, yet not very common knowledge on the forum :
http://www.coopersafety.com/noisereduction.aspx
If that's the case, that means I could have easily exposed myself to much more noise than I thought. As each of us who thinks that NRR means we have 33 db fewer with the earplugs in. What do you think of that, @linearb ?

 

[Ed209]

I'll just point out that the NRR's are lab based results. This basically means they are testing the perfect fit/seal. The cooper safety link and various others that you will find online are bringing down the NRR based on a weighted average of the seal not being ideal. If the plugs are used properly and give a perfect seal then you will get the full lab tested benefits. I reckon in most cases the foam ones when rolled and deeply inserted give a very good seal. If you have very oddly shaped ear canals maybe not.

The alpine style plugs need to be twisted as you push them in to create a good seal. The reason I find these uncomfortable including Hearos xtreme is because they are oversized to fit the majority of ears best, which generally means uncomfortable fitting ear plugs for the majority of us. A lot of people simply don't insert ear plugs correctly, such as pushing foam ones in so half of them hang out of your ear.

As far as Hearos go, in my ears the seal is perfect. I know this because I go nearly deaf when they are in. The drop in noise is significant. The reduction I felt using the Alpines for my ears felt about the same as using an ACS 17 filter for my molded plugs. The only difference being more mid frequencies so you can hear conversation better, and they are far more comfortable.

 

[Gosia]

I feel my alpines fit and seal very well, but I only use them for a moderate noise - like yesterday in the car for a ride of 90 mins x 2. Otherwise I feel like they block very little noise, so for the performance in question I had those : http://www.quies.com/product/foam-earplugs/ They go easily inside the ear canal , but I definitely didn't feel they block as much as 35 db as the producer claims. I squeezed them as much as I could ( I felt like two milimiters after there was my eardrum .)

 

[linearb]

Fwiw I'm literally on my way to star wars right now, with foam plugs and muffs on hand in case it's a loud theater...

I think I get close to a perfect seal; I cram those suckers way in, and I know what a bad seal sounds like.

 

[Ed209]

http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/...how-to-use-the-noise-reduction-rating-nrr.pdf

Further information on how they calculate the ratings.

 

[Gosia]

Fwiw I'm literally on my way to star wars right now, with foam plugs and muffs on hand in case it's a loud theater...

I think I get close to a perfect seal; I cram those suckers way in, and I know what a bad seal sounds like.

Enjoy and let us know how it was !

 

[linearb]

Enjoy and let us know how it was !

As far as the movie goes, totally stupid, saved 100% enjoyable would see again.

This was in an AMC with recliner seats; I clocked the volume during an early action scene with booming bass. 75ish db overall, closer to 80 during explosions with occasional peaks over 85 but not over 90. So, while I did mostly use plugs because loud noises annoy me, that volume is consistent with lots of day to day noises and not something I'd personally be worried about from a harm point of view unless I was going to be in it for extended periods over many days/weeks.

I don't go to movies much, and was sort of shocked that I was able to buy beer at the theater and bring it in to the show; pretty good.

 

[Ed209]

As far as the movie goes, totally stupid, saved 100% enjoyable would see again.

This was in an AMC with recliner seats; I clocked the volume during an early action scene with booming bass. 75ish db overall, closer to 80 during explosions with occasional peaks over 85 but not over 90. So, while I did mostly use plugs because loud noises annoy me, that volume is consistent with lots of day to day noises and not something I'd personally be worried about from a harm point of view unless I was going to be in it for extended periods over many days/weeks.

I don't go to movies much, and was sort of shocked that I was able to buy beer at the theater and bring it in to the show; pretty good.

That's exactly the same decibel range as the cinema I saw it at. I was surprised at how low it was on the decibel meter.

 

[linearb]

My guess is that 75-87 is an average range for theaters, and places that really blast into the 120 range are the extreme exception. That's really loud, and most people would hate it.

 

[Ed209]

My guess is that 75-87 is an average range for theaters, and places that really blast into the 120 range are the extreme exception. That's really loud, and most people would hate it.

That's exactly what I said in a thread a month or so back. People generally don't quite understand how loud a 100db is. There were some reports floating around about cinemas being dangerous because they hit 130db; I merely pointed out how unbelievably unlikely it was for a cinema to hit those levels and got totally shot down for it.

All the the films I've seen so far have been around 65-75db on average. The peaks can hit around 85db but this is only during action scenes, and even then they don't stay at that level, it's just the odd moments that can make it spike there. Obviously that's not to say all cinemas are like this but the two I've been to so far have been identical.

I stand by what I said before, that if there are cinemas that actually hit 130db you would clear the room, because at that volume your head would vibrate and your ears would seriously hurt you. Cinemas would lose a ton of money as well.

 

[Ed209]

I'll add that I still use my 10db filters when I go, but I personally don't think the cinemas in the UK are damaging at all. If you don't already have T I seriously doubt it's possible to get it from a cinema in the UK.

 

[linearb]

I'd like to get 10db filters; I'm not too worried about actual damages but 85db grates on me.

 

[object16]

I have the exact same issue. I went to a small venue live performance, with very small amount of amplification. I do not really believe the db level was very high or dangerous, this was Fiddler on the Roof, and I was wearing Bose QC15 which cuts things down nicely. I stayed in the back, well away from any possible clapping, because clapping will spike my tinnitus, even someone smacking a mosquito next to me will create a spike. I am a total wreck, I must admit, I just wish I could somehow get better. Lately, I've been taking cannabis, but I think sometimes the cannabis makes me worse, so i'm going to cut that out for a while.
Like the OP I have serious issues with sleep, and if I'm doing well, I can usually sleep pretty well, but if I just get slightly worse, my sleep gets shot to hell, and then my tinnitus starts to spiral out of control. Unfortunately, I have no medical practitioner that is willing to manage my drug use, except for useless advice like you can't take that many meds, but I just don't know what else to do. I already do all of the pink noise white noise music Dali Lama tracks, to distract my brain, but in the end, I use quite a bit of meds, and can't seem to reduce the dose. with every spike, I end up on more meds, and it is very difficult to cut back. I was able to get myself off of Imovane, which was a relief, but forget about getting off Lyrica/Seroquel/Clonazepam/Tegretol - unfortunately, I seem to get quite a tolerance to meds, so what would initially work real well, soon stops working, and then I get trapped. I resist taking more, but at a certain point I can no longer just lie there and not sleep. yikes, I am in bad shape. maybe even worse than OP.