UltraQuiet Therapy

[Steve]

When you say pure tones, it means you tried several frequencies with 90bpm? How many hours of RI did you achieved?

Pure tones - or Sine waves - are the most basic sound wave, the simplest sound possible. All other sound types can be made by adding lots of Sine waves together (called additive synthesis). If you google "Sine wave" you'll find a few explanations.

The aftershokz reviews are pretty much what I would have expected...they work, but you don't get excellent full spectrum audio performance.

The problems I have read are mainly with the bass, which shouldn't effect this treatment technique as you rightly say, being that it is most important to have the higher frequencies.

I'm not sure about their new unit, maybe they are going to take away the recorded music part and have the box synthesise the sound. The component parts are very cheap to buy yourself so they must have something unique about it.

I would recommend using the highest possible quality... at least 24bit / 96khz, if not 192khz. Its my understanding that the higher kHz the higher the capacity for higher frequencies.

Absolutely right. The way that it works is that the KHz part represents the number of times a sound wave is sampled per second. So 96KHz takes 96,000 samples per second - that is to say it takes 96,000 readings of the sound wave each second, the more readings the more accurate the reproduction of the sound.

To effectively sample the higher frequencies we are going to be producing some pretty large sound files.

 

[nogood]

Interesting Concept.. I like to pitch in if possible. .

 

[Steve]

I've just ordered a pair of Aftershokz S3. Couldn't see any alternative to them really. Hopefully they will arrive this week and I can start to experiment.

@nogood Happy to have any assistance.

 

[earflappin]

Hi Salt, I'm in the audio business and I can tell you that no, you would not need 24/96khz or 24/192khz for our application. Good old CD Redbook at 16bit/44.1khz would be more than sufficient to cover 0-20,000 hz. I doubt you would even need lossless uncompressed tiff/wav/flac format either, but all other things equal, why not use it. I use uncompressed files with Audacity when doing my notch therapy.

Bottom line, I think all we need here to DIY this treatment protocol is a consensus on the audio file. IOW, how should it be structured given that each person has a different T frequency, etc.

Thanks to Steve for shepherding us forward.

 

[earflappin]

I've just ordered a pair of Aftershokz S3. Couldn't see any alternative to them really. Hopefully they will arrive this week and I can start to experiment.

@nogood Happy to have any assistance.

Excellent Steve. I will stay tuned. Same as @nogood, I am interested in assisting/piggybacking on this project.

 

[Steve]

That's great, it should only take a few of us dedicated to this to drive it forward.

Accepting that we all have different hearing profiles and a different degree of hearing loss I think a universal treatment can still be designed.

As I understand it the goal is similar to acoustic neuromodulation (where the tonotopic map needs to be reset because of a loss of input) - but using frequencies that we can no longer hear outwardly. In theory it should work the same for hearing loss at any frequency.

I imagine that we can simply use sine waves in a pattern. I've already made sound files like this so I can just adapt them slightly and see if it works.

 

[Frederick86]

@earflappin According to the paper, the stimulus for this therapy is music altered to sound in the 10-20khz range, that is, a whole melody translated to the high frequencies, and would be the same for every person, with the exception that it also states that the music must be "well removed from the tinnitus frequency".

So, if I understand it correctly, it only need to be customized for those with tinnitus above the 10khz frequency, and it would be just to notch the T frequency or frequencies from the altered music.

 

[earflappin]

That's great, it should only take a few of us dedicated to this to drive it forward.

Accepting that we all have different hearing profiles and a different degree of hearing loss I think a universal treatment can still be designed.

As I understand it the goal is similar to acoustic neuromodulation (where the tonotopic map needs to be reset because of a loss of input) - but using frequencies that we can no longer hear outwardly. In theory it should work the same for hearing loss at any frequency.

I imagine that we can simply use sine waves in a pattern. I've already made sound files like this so I can just adapt them slightly and see if it works.

Thanks @SteveH and @ Frederick86. My T frequency is 11.5khz. I will await further feedback from @SteveH before taking any next steps. In the mean time I am doing 1 octave notched white noise therapy 3 hours per day.

 

[nogood]

I can't seem to pin point my t frequency cause as soon as I hear the T frequency it disappears for a while .. then slowly creeps back in.. I tested hearing a sweeping sine wave it helps me during a spike, it goes down almost instantly. .
My latest high frequency audiogram shows hearing loss in both ears.. I took two tests within one month time. . But First one showed one frequency dip... latest one multiple frequency loss..
So for now sweeping sine wave would be my best option. . Until I take another audiogram..

 

[Frederick86]

That's great, it should only take a few of us dedicated to this to drive it forward.

Accepting that we all have different hearing profiles and a different degree of hearing loss I think a universal treatment can still be designed.

As I understand it the goal is similar to acoustic neuromodulation (where the tonotopic map needs to be reset because of a loss of input) - but using frequencies that we can no longer hear outwardly. In theory it should work the same for hearing loss at any frequency.

I imagine that we can simply use sine waves in a pattern. I've already made sound files like this so I can just adapt them slightly and see if it works.

@earflappin According to the paper, the stimulus for this therapy is music altered to sound in the 10-20khz range, that is, a whole melody translated to the high frequencies, and would be the same for every person, with the exception that it also states that the music must be "well removed from the tinnitus frequency".

So, if I understand it correctly, it only need to be customized for those with tinnitus above the 10khz frequency, and it would be just to notch the T frequency or frequencies from the altered music.

@Steve As I read twice the paper, there's still something confusing to me... I understand what sine waves are, but I wonder why the researchers concluded this was better done with music. Could it be something about the complexity of the patterns in music? I'd find interesting to try both, music altered in the way the paper states, and patterned sine waves, and see if there are clear advantages of one over the other.

 

[Steve]

@Steve As I read twice the paper, there's still something confusing to me... I understand what sine waves are, but I wonder why the researchers concluded this was better done with music. Could it be something about the complexity of the patterns in music? I'd find interesting to try both, music altered in the way the paper states, and patterned sine waves, and see if there are clear advantages of one over the other.

It's definitely worth trying different variations to see what works. Whatever we use it will have to be well produced, not just noise, so that the brain can pick frequencies out.

My phones arrived today, tried them briefly and they are interesting, nice to have nothing inside your ear. The bass is lacking but that's only to be expected - you really need to move air to get good bass. I'll play with a few sounds and report back.

 

[jazz]

I can't seem to pin point my t frequency cause as soon as I hear the T frequency it disappears for a while .. then slowly creeps back in.. I tested hearing a sweeping sine wave it helps me during a spike, it goes down almost instantly. .
My latest high frequency audiogram shows hearing loss in both ears.. I took two tests within one month time. . But First one showed one frequency dip... latest one multiple frequency loss..
So for now sweeping sine wave would be my best option. . Until I take another audiogram..

I also can't pin down my main frequency. My main noise--when it's loud--is definitely narrow band so it's comprised of several frequencies, I presume. What's odd, however, is every time I've tried to match my noise I'll get some type of RI. As such, the noise will be greatly reduced, though not gone. But, invariably, the noise will then shoot back up and be louder than before. I wonder if this is more indicative of multiple frequencies or just auditory system being obnoxious?

Has this happened to anyone else when they are trying to match their frequency(ies)?

 

[jazz]

Here's a YouTube video on conductive hearing headphones:

I have ETD and can only listen to music with one ear. I'm not sure the two are related, but perhaps these headphones will help. Plus, I'd also like to participate in the experiment!

 

[jazz]

I was a bit disappointed by the study's longer term results as reported in ITJ journal:

All eight subjects who completed the study reported abatement of their tinnitus symptoms during the course of treatment. (One subject dropped out for reasons unrelated to the tinnitus study.) The duration of the improvement varied. For two patients, the improvement lasted for 2 or more weeks. For the others, it lasted for 1-2 hours for up to 3 days (Figure 3). A long-term follow-up questionnaire was administered 2-8 months after the end of the treatment; results are as follows. On the question, "How do you feel that your overall tinnitus symptoms have changed since before you began the tinnitus treatment?" one person answered "moderately improved," five people answered "slightly improved," and two people answered "about the same." [emphasis added] One person reported benefit lasting 4 weeks after the last treatment, one person reported benefit for 1 week, four people reported benefit for 3-5 days, and two people reported no lasting benefit. No one reported any adverse effects or worsening of symptoms (Figure 4). The mean change between the pretreatment and posttreatment audiograms was less than 5 dB (Figure 5), which was not statistically significant. No individual audiogram showed any notable change.
​

But it is likely that using the headphones for a longer period will improve results. Study participants only used the headphones for one month. I'd suggest using the headphones for at least three and preferably six months before we decide if the therapy works. Too often people try something for a few weeks then give up. It takes a while to help repair the maladaptive plasticity that accompanies tinnitus.

 

[Steve]

Interesting, thanks for posting that Jazz.

I think that it will definitely need to go on for longer to get any sort of good results - especially for someone like me who's had it for a long time.

I wonder if we have any early signs to look for that the treatment will be effective? I may have to do a few different styles so we can match the listener to sounds that they like, one size doesn't fit all.

 

[Frederick86]

@jazz is right about this, I think. Based in what we know about plasticity of the brain, all the treatments that get volume reduction, like ACRN and notched sound, take about 3 months to get good results, and more time to consolidate them. If we read about neuronal rehabilitation for things like regaining function after a stroke, the person usually need to do exercises and therapy for months and the treatment can take a year or two to complete. I think to rewire our brains can easily take that long or more.

@Steve I'm not any expert but, based on what this paper and the others therapies papers say, I could guess that the first good sign would be residual inhibition that lasts longer than the one the same person can get with white noise. The most usual is about a few seconds long after listening for some minutes. Then one can do a RI test with white noise and compare it with the RI obtained by this method, which should be longer if the stimulus is correct. Do you think this could be useful?

 

[RoyZ]

Hi Friends..

It's crazy, I just made that diy transducer without knowing of this thread or any research about bone conduction for dealing with T, I was just thinking to myself a few days ago that since I was a kid we used to bite the tip of the classical guitar, seal our ears and play something just for the fun of hearing the sound coming out "from our heads". so I thought.. well.. that might be a better way for receiving the Neuromodulation treatment. so Iv'e researched and came up exactly with @Steve headphones- Aftershockz and that diy transducer. so I just made that transducer, came out pretty good. I experimented with it with ACRN, I am not sure what my conclusions are, I might pissed my T off a little cause it went louder since. I did just go back to ACRN with headphones.
but it's so cool you people were talking about this while I was doing it. though it was for different experiments



I am also into the sound and music fields and I am sure there got to be a way of treating T with audio!
I am in that quest of finding that way! I will be glad to join everyone who shares this vision.
I am using myself as a guinea pig I tried many things as sweeping sounds, ACRN, noises, combinations and I have more things I would like to try. my T is at 13760Hz, and it took me a long time to figure it out. I was always thinking it was 13200Hz in the recent past but then I found out it was something else.
I think that this transducer I made really helped me finding out my T tone correctly, I managed to match the T with it much better than headphones although still, not easily. I was listening to my T and then attaching the transducer to my head next to my ear using a low volume for just a second, on and off for a few times to figure it out.. and I think it works better than headphones.
@Steve, with your new headphones, could you please try to see if it counts for you too? can you try matching your T with your new bone conducting headphones and compare your matching results to ordinary headphones? (starting with the ordinary headphones)
let's see if we are on to something.. knowing your T frequency for sure is important for any treatment.
no matter who will find this audio solution for treating T, I have a feeling that once it will be found it will be an amazing discovery that will turn to a practical treatment for T in the conventional medicine. just imagine...
for now it's like no one knows anything for certain and anything is still possible!
I wish we could have a place where we could make a list of possible experiments, for example, playing tones underwater using bone conduction (just joking.. or not? ), using filters to chop the sound.. come up with a series of tones in one way or another, different types of waves, with a logical explanation or not. anything that just sounds to be worth a try. who knows what we can come up with.. I know it will take time to make a difference but who knows.. if the right treatment will be discovered, maybe it will just make the T change a little in loudness or character after a short while..
if anyone thinks it's a good idea and thinks of a way of putting this kind of a list, I'll be happy to know!
I have just read this thread but didn't get into these researches yet, I am just about to do that.
If anyone has a suggestion of what can be tried in terms of these researches and creating any sounds or songs I am up for it.
p.s some it this research sounds similar to what this guy did according to some research but he didn't do any pitch shifting. Thanks.. Roy.

 

[jazz]

I think that this transducer I made really helped me finding out my T tone correctly, I managed to match the T with it much better than headphones although still, not easily. I was listening to my T and then attaching the transducer to my head next to my ear using a low volume for just a second, on and off for a few times to figure it out.. and I think it works better than headphones.

@RoyZ I might try this. I just can't match my main tinnitus sound, but since I will occasionally get RI I must be hitting it.

@Steve I'm not any expert but, based on what this paper and the others therapies papers say, I could guess that the first good sign would be residual inhibition that lasts longer than the one the same person can get with white noise. The most usual is about a few seconds long after listening for some minutes. Then one can do a RI test with white noise and compare it with the RI obtained by this method, which should be longer if the stimulus is correct. Do you think this could be useful?

@Frederick86 That sounds interesting. I'll have to test my tinnitus the next time it's crazy loud--which is usually 1-2 days a week--with white noise and see if I can obtain residual inhibition. Usually, I just try to match my noise with individual tones, and they sometimes will give me RI. I wish I knew what tone did it!

 

[Frederick86]

@jazz As I've always read about RI, you're supposed to get it by listening to white noise for at least 60 seconds at a volume just covering the tinnitus. Then, if it works for you, you'd get about 2-3 seconds of suppression.

@RoyZ Have you read about Notched White Noise and Dichonics? These in my opinion are the most promising options by now. NWW has achieved a 12-15db reduction in tinnitus volume after 3 months of treatment (there's a thread here about it) and Dichonis gets many hours of residual inhibition and has been proved by brain scans. It works similarly to Ultra Quiet, but the researcher has it under patent and it seem difficult to replicate.

The most interesting thing about the Ultra Quiet protocol is that it would work without T matching (except for those with T above 10khz, who would need to notch their T out of the stimulus).

That would be an important part of the treatment. There's a lot of people with multitones, buzzing or other complex sounds, and therapies based on extended residual inhibition that gows over time due to neuronal plasticity are the way to go to "reset" the brain filtering and stopping T no matter how complex it is.

 

[RoyZ]

@Frederick86, interesting, thanks for the information, I will look into those options.
How does Neuromodulation stand compared to these options in your opinion?

 

[Mark McDill]

@RoyZ
You seem to be well acquainted with the art of sound and audio technologies; recently I've noticed one song in particular that will give me up to five minutes of RI (no matter how much my T screaming). Obviously, I don't want to listen to the song all day long; but is there anything to be learned from that? I find it to be very odd...

Mark

 

[RoyZ]

@Mark McDill, if you'll tell me what's the name of the song I'll try to analyze it for you, maybe there is something going on over there at particular frequencies that helps you and you could try to replicate it in another way..

 

[Frederick86]

@RoyZ By what I've read, ACRN is good in that it can even half the volume, but notched white noise could be better, as it gets to 15db reduction. Most people's tinnitus is in the 10-20db volume range (although if it is high frequency it feels louder because normal everyday noises don't mask high frequencies, except for water and a few other sounds). This means the people in the trial got a mean of 75% reduction, and I remember one or two persons got it totally cured.

But I still think RI based treatments can be even better. If you think about it, the other sound treatments , besides requiring exact T matches, they work by remapping the auditory cortex, so you can lower in volume a certain T frequency, but your brain filtering is still defective, so new tones would appear with every new hearing loss worsening.

But RI, as I understand it, seems to work with brain filtering of any T signal, which is why people with not tonal tinnitus can get RI too, and why we get silence for some seconds before it fades in again in our consciousness. Then, RI based treatments would "regrow" the cortical filters over time, then going to the problem's root and, as I was saying, they would work also for people with buzzing, cicadas, and other complex tinnitus sounds.

 

[Mark McDill]

@RoyZ
Possum Kingdom (by Toadies); my T is in the 4-4.5 khz range.

That would be great; I have to say I don't agree with the message of the song (so I re-wrote the words ), but the music has an energy and I noticed it is the only song that does this to me (for me).

 

[nogood]

@jazz You have etd.. have you done your audiogram.. any hearing loss ?
My ent and audiologist suspected I have conductive loss probably just dried up mucus or just inflammation. .I have hearing loss in higher frequency above 8k.. I jst want to know for comparing. .
I get RI around and above 8k..
@RoyZ thanks for posting in hbot the android app.. I tried the sweeping sound it knocks the spike in just one sweep.. @Steve I can't seem to find the new version of the headphones only older version and its a lot expensive too. Almost 2.5 times the original cost. Where did u order urs.. the company website says it's only 40usd.. not sure they ship overseas.. also can't seem to locate any 3rd party who ship overseas. .

 

[Steve]

Then one can do a RI test with white noise and compare it with the RI obtained by this method, which should be longer if the stimulus is correct. Do you think this could be useful?

That fits with the logic. I can make a few styles and see which gives the best RI for the individual.

@RoyZ We are going to have an area on our new site for this sort of thing, experiments with sound and any treatments we can try ourselves (at low cost). Depending on what the web developers can do for us, it may be interactive or it may be an area where we can share things - we will update as we develop it and most likely consult with members. This project is actually perfect for getting a feel of how the area should be set up.

@nogood Mine were from Amazon - £60 delivered (we pay so much more in the UK), http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00JO9XTSI/?tag=tinntalk-21

 

[Markku]

Where did u order urs.. the company website says it's only 40usd.. not sure they ship overseas..

AfterShockz's own store ships only to Canada and US.

http://www.aftershokz.com/product/sportz-3/

They also have a UK store.

http://www.aftershokz.co.uk/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=AS400

And here's a list of some online stores that sell them.

http://www.aftershokz.co.uk/category-s/1837.htm

On eBay, this seller ships worldwide.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/AfterShokz-...66030862?pt=US_Headphones&hash=item53f369020e

 

[RoyZ]

@Frederick86, Thanks for the information! I will definitely look into those options.

@Mark McDill , sorry friend, couldn't get a hold of the music file itself, if you wish, send it to me. (the song idea is indeed horrible ) the electric guitar is running in your range sometimes. and drum cymbals are always the highest frequency available in popular music.

@Steve, cool, what it that site though? a totally different one than here? I am a web developer as well, maybe I can help, just let me know with what.
could you please share your view on matching your T tone with the Aftershokz? sorry I'm nagging I just think it might be important. Thanks..

 

[nogood]

@Steve @Markku
thanks. . Let me see if they deliver to Singapore. . Need to report to work on 19th...
me too a web developer. .
I do java based applications.. and good with Linux. . I can spare few hrs on weekends.. so let me know if need any help

 

[Steve]

@Frederick86, Thanks for the information! I will definitely look into those options.

@Mark McDill , sorry friend, couldn't get a hold of the music file itself, if you wish, send it to me. (the song idea is indeed horrible ) the electric guitar is running in your range sometimes. and drum cymbals are always the highest frequency available in popular music.

@Steve, cool, what it that site though? a totally different one than here? I am a web developer as well, maybe I can help, just let me know with what.
could you please share your view on matching your T tone with the Aftershokz? sorry I'm nagging I just think it might be important. Thanks..

It's the new tinnitus site, as a partner to Tinnitus Talk, we've just finished the crowd funding for. We're just getting the developers sorted so it won't launch for a few months yet. Any help is always appreciated as we progress the build, if we get something to work then we can feature an interface for people to use this themselves.

I haven't tried to tone match yet but I have used them for masking sounds. At a guess I can't see them being any different to normal headphones, possibly more difficult. I'll get a chance to try properly at the weekend and report back.

I did use my musical neuromodulation file with them today and it had the same effect as it does through headphones - which is a flattening of my T for a period after listening. The higher frequencies came through nicely so they should work well for this experiment.

For the music I'm going to try a noise sound, sweeping up and down (white noise with narrow EQ at full boost), from 20Hz to 20KHz as one file. Then another with Sine wave pulses, randomised at intervals of a major fifth (moving the pitch until all notes have been played), playing all notes up to 20KHz. And another with some bell sounds playing randomly (pentatonic scale) and moving in pitch to cover all notes.

Any other requests are welcome.