Unleashing the Power of the Mind to Manage Tinnitus?

[DebInAustralia]

@Pitseleh, thank you for your insights.

Please share how you detach emotion from tinnitus.

 

[StoneInFocus]

We already discussed the importance of a proper teacher. People should explore meditation for sure but under a good teacher.

In your opinion, which teachers/lineage is actually good? Maybe the teachers in smaller/more local circles are actually better, I wouldn't know about that because I mostly practiced solo, but a lot of the more public teachers and "gurus" who teach about Buddhism and meditation, such as Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh, Sadhguru, Thich Nhat Hanh (rest in peace), secular Buddhist teachers such as Doug Smith, magazines such as Tricycle, Lion's Roar etc confess a confusing and distorted type of Buddhism. I even think Goenka's Vipassana method is a corrupt practice because as far as I know, he does not teach the higher meditative absorptions which are necessary for liberation. A Vipassana retreat is not "a deep surgical operation of your mind" as is often claimed. Meditation is useless for the purpose of removing childhood traumas etc.

These entities do not only teach some intellectual or historical information about Buddhism, or things about meditation. They try to sell a whole worldview too. The students of these people often lack critical thinking skills and just parrot what these gurus say. Now let me ask this question: What sane, healthy, powerful, life-affirming person would ever become a Buddhist teacher? A Buddhist professor? A Buddhist monk? Happy people rarely if ever meditate. These teachers sell meditation and mindfulness as the destination, but its only truly powerful as a vehicle. Its a drug used to be carefully, strategically, only when strictly necessary.

It looks like the "controllable" part of the human mind is 5-10%. The rest is subconscious and we know very little about it. Meditation (and, differently, hypnosis) can help explore the remaining 90-95% but it's not a known machine. There are authors who don't think the mind operations are computational and have Godelian arguments for this (one is the Nobel prize Penrose). So even if it is a machine, it is a largely unknown one.

This is merely intellectual speculation. The relationship between the mind and the body has been studied for thousands of years. There is a reason why psychiatrists recommends exercise and enough sleep for their patients. We just know that certain physical actions have a specific effect on our mental well-being. Maybe our conscious mind hasn't got a lot of direct power over our body, but our body sure can affect the conscious mind to a great extent.

This may be the crux of the matter. Some forms of severe tinnitus are quite physical, like electricity running through your head, your skull vibrating, etc. It's hard to separate mental and physical symptoms. I feel my tinnitus very physically. Some symptoms of depression are extremely physical. Where do you draw the line? It's a very difficult question. Meditation works also for chronic physical pain, I used it like that successfully in the past, but I'm unable to do that with my catastrophic tinnitus. What are the limits? There must be some, or it would be a universal medicine and it isn't. Where do we draw the line between physical and mental? This is a very difficult question.

I get that "some forms of severe tinnitus are quite physical" and a healthy mind will only cope with it to some extent. Hell, I got painful hyperacusis myself, that's why I specified in my earlier post that mindfulness is helpful for tinnitus, by which I meant like the tonal type of tinnitus. I still believe that for regular, not too extreme tonal tinnitus, which constitutes the vast majority of tinnitus sufferers, mindfulness meditation can be so incredibly powerful. But for the more difficult cases, who also have other health issues, psychiatric problems and childhood traumas, mindfulness alone isn't going to cut it. But even in those cases, the reason why someone hasn't given up yet or committed suicide, is because of their mind. They still have some hope yet, they still don't want to say goodbye to their loved ones. So even in the more physical cases there is a mental aspect in how you deal with it.

 

[Chinmoku]

In your opinion, which teachers/lineage is actually good? Maybe the teachers in smaller/more local circles are actually better, I wouldn't know about that because I mostly practiced solo, but a lot of the more public teachers and "gurus" who teach about Buddhism and meditation, such as Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh, Sadhguru, Thich Nhat Hanh (rest in peace), secular Buddhist teachers such as Doug Smith, magazines such as Tricycle, Lion's Roar etc confess a confusing and distorted type of Buddhism. I even think Goenka's Vipassana method is a corrupt practice because as far as I know, he does not teach the higher meditative absorptions which are necessary for liberation. A Vipassana retreat is not "a deep surgical operation of your mind" as is often claimed. Meditation is useless for the purpose of removing childhood traumas etc.

It's a very difficult question. I practiced with Zazen masters in group meditation, but then, like you, I practiced solo a lot. I based my practice also on Theravada buddhism. I read the writings of Buddhadasha, a Thai Theravada monk. I did 30 to 60 minutes a day of vipassana for years, usually in the evening. I never had a mystical experience or a superior state, so maybe I'm not wired for it, but the Zazen teacher said not to seek those states, that's not the point. The practice did improve my mental stability, equanimity, benevolence and mood, but it was a very slow process. Occasionally I would do also metta meditation and meditate on the other incommensurable states. Like you, I was never too fond of gurus but I did like the writings of Charlotte Joko Beck and Darlene Cohen.

I don't like Tibetan Buddhism too much because it got mixed with a lot of exoteric stuff but I'm ok with much more bare practices like Zazen. I don't like currents where Buddha was deified, not only by the Hindu who view him as an avatar of Vishnu, but also cults like Amithaba etc.

I like the concept of bodhisattva in some post-theravada schools. I don't like the classification in small and large vehicle, but I digress.

Did you use meditation for a specific purpose (which usually they don't recommend), curiosity or other issues?

I also agree on Vipassana retreats, actually as I hinted earlier they can be dangerous for people with specific pathologies.

These entities do not only teach some intellectual or historical information about Buddhism, or things about meditation. They try to sell a whole worldview too. The students of these people often lack critical thinking skills and just parrot what these gurus say. Now let me ask this question: What sane, healthy, powerful, life-affirming person would ever become a Buddhist teacher? A Buddhist professor? A Buddhist monk? Happy people rarely if ever meditate. These teachers sell meditation and mindfulness as the destination, but its only truly powerful as a vehicle. Its a drug used to be carefully, strategically, only when strictly necessary.

Yes and it's not only the gurus. Mindfulness has become a business. I don't know if one can become a mindfulness therapist (?) with a 6 months master degree, but a lot of people jumped on the bandwagon. Again, as @Sleaford Mod pointed out, there is a whole industry out there but many people are not really qualified enough. Also, employers often offer mindfulness courses to teach employees acceptance of difficult work situations they should rather fight. This use of mindfulness as an "anesthetic" is totally wrong.

This is merely intellectual speculation. The relationship between the mind and the body has been studied for thousands of years. There is a reason why psychiatrists recommends exercise and enough sleep for their patients. We just know that certain physical actions have a specific effect on our mental well-being. Maybe our conscious mind hasn't got a lot of direct power over our body, but our body sure can affect the conscious mind to a great extent.

That is true but there is also a reason why some deep forms of mental problems can't be helped or healed merely with exercise or sleep. There is also a reason why AD that are even 30 or 40 years old still have unknown mechanisms of action and include... depression! among their side effects. We simply understand 5-10% of the mind at best. This cannot be stressed enough.

I get that "some forms of severe tinnitus are quite physical" and a healthy mind will only cope with it to some extent. Hell, I got painful hyperacusis myself, that's why I specified in my earlier post that mindfulness is helpful for tinnitus, by which I meant like the tonal type of tinnitus. I still believe that for regular, not too extreme tonal tinnitus, which constitutes the vast majority of tinnitus sufferers, mindfulness meditation can be so incredibly powerful. But for the more difficult cases, who also have other health issues, psychiatric problems and childhood traumas, mindfulness alone isn't going to cut it. But even in those cases, the reason why someone hasn't given up yet or committed suicide, is because of their mind. They still have some hope yet, they still don't want to say goodbye to their loved ones. So even in the more physical cases there is a mental aspect in how you deal with it.

My point was perhaps more general, I see mental-physical as a continuous spectrum rather than two different fields. What's the power of the mind? Is it unbounded? Clearly it's not. There are limits. Meditation may help explore and extend them, we agree on that, and I'm one of the cases you mention, I'm in constant mental battle to stick around for my kids. It's a minute by minute battle I'm losing, I held on so far. I still try to meditate but it's torture and I keep getting worse. It's not the meditation that's worsening me, I don't know what, doctors can't help. I wish you a better and better practice and hope it helps you more and more with hyperacusis and tinnitus.

 

[Uklawyer]

I haven't tried other psychedelics. Have you considered that yourself?

I have thought about it. I am hoping that mine will work its way through. It's an apposite thread as everyone seems to think that mine is "all in the head" as it were. I do acknowledge the psychological element of mine.

 

[Chinmoku]

I have thought about it. I am hoping that mine will work its way through. It's an apposite thread as everyone seems to think that mine is "all in the head" as it were. I do acknowledge the psychological element of mine.

Psychedelics have been under trials for a while for a number of conditions. A friend doctor told me the problem they have is controlling the side effects. I hope they manage and we find something that helps tinnitus cases like yours. I really do. Mine doesn't care about my mental state, I can meditate or relax for hours but it keeps screaming louder and louder. It's crazy.

 

[Uklawyer]

A friend doctor told me the problem they have is controlling the side effects.

Do you mean adverse effects of psychedelics?

Mine doesn't care about my mental state, I can meditate or relax for hours but it keeps screaming louder and louder. It's crazy.

I am sorry. Is there anything you have tried that has had any discernible effect on the tinnitus? Any luck with the benzos, including moving over to a different one?

 

[StoneInFocus]

@Chinmoku, thanks for sharing your story, appreciate it.

Did you use meditation for a specific purpose (which usually they don't recommend), curiosity or other issues?

That's a bit of a difficult question because I've meditated on and off for the few of years, switching between techniques, mindsets and purposes. I'll share a bit of my life story if you don't mind. I initially started meditating to deal with my tinnitus and racing thoughts. I had just moved from my home place to a different city, on a bad note with my parents, and had practically no interaction with my peers. So a bit like a monk I was already physically and emotionally detached from "home". A few months later after I had discovered meditation I came into contact with Buddhism through Julius Evola's 'The Doctrine of Awakening', which is an exposition of the original Pali canon. Reading this book initiated the intellectual desire in me to reach Nibbana. Fast forward a couple of years of spending most of my time alone, living a small room in a dirty apartment, to the start of the COVID-19 pandemic. I moved back in with my parents. I started to feel suicidal after meditation sessions. I realized the path I was walking on would end dead. So I quit. When I was staying with my parents my connection with them was a bit restored. I wanted to move back to my other city. I was kicked out of my jail cell, so I moved to a much bigger, lighter room in a house with an actual living room. In the summer of that year, after years of abstinence from weed and alcohol, I came into contact with Ketamine through a friend of mine. I started experimenting with drugs. I developed pain hyperacusis because of the partying without hearing protection. The hyperacusis was extremely damaging to my mood and social life. I literally started to slowly lose my mind because of the drugs. I slept at extremely irregular times. I won't go in to details in this forum but my mind was in a very dark place. Thought I was the reincarnation of Jesus Christ. Almost attempted suicide during a bad Psilocybin trip. But a few months later, a few puffs from a joint was the straw that broke the camels back. The days after smoking I became extremely agitated. Ran around the neighborhood because of anxiety so bad it was literally painful. Thought God was going to send me to hell. Tinnitus through the roof. Lost all hope because of hyperacusis. Discussed the possibility of suicide with my mother. Had to visit a psychiatric emergency service. I was prescribed an anti-psychotic drug. Moved back in with my parents. Very slowly started to get better. The almost-suicide incident changed my worldview forever. I realized that if I didn't profoundly change my ways, I would undoubtedly end up insane and killing myself. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer. Started to fix my extremely poor self esteem. Stopped thinking ego was bad anymore. Used meditation to get the discipline to change my bad habits. Became serious about my physical health again. Looked for inspiration and guidance in powerful men (had a father but never a father figure). Stopped shaming and started embracing my desires and libido. Utterly determined to heal from hyperacusis. Thoughts about suicide are not welcome in my head anymore. Just started the Wim Hof method. My life feels more meaningful than ever. Now I am finally equipped to deal with life's storms without resorting to contemplative escapism. Finally feel purpose. Hyperacusis is on the healing path. Utterly determined to make the absolute best of my life. But realize there is still a long way to go.

I think the fact that most teachers don't recommend meditating for a specific purpose is precisely where the danger lies. We all have certain conscious or unconscious desires and goals when we meditate. If we do not really know what we want to achieve with meditation, then how can we know whether or not it is actually good for us? Certainly meditation is not some sort of magic ritual which somehow brings inner peace about, right? There is actually a certain type of mechanism underlying the effectiveness of meditation which all these teachers, from the Buddha to Goenka, have tapped into. I don't know if you have any experience in this regard but phenomenologically speaking, the experience of taking stimulant drugs is very similar to the experience emerging from a more attention/absorption type of meditative session. I am a little but rusty on the neuroscience, so I will get back to that in a later post, but this very short article discusses how meditation influences brain circuitry. I hope that one day meditation is shredded from its cloud of spiritual mystery and we will look at it as just another type of drug. Which means: Helpful in certain cases, unnecessary to take with no problems present, but potentially dangerous as well.

I also agree on Vipassana retreats, actually as I hinted earlier they can be dangerous for people with specific pathologies.

Yes, have you read the story of Megan Vogt, who went psychotic during a 10 day Vipassana retreat? I have to make the connection with stimulants here again. This article goes into the role of neurotransmitters in meditation and behaviour. The article reads that "another study that incorporated PET scans observed an increase in dopamine levels in the ventral striatum of participants during practice of Yoga Nidra meditation." Could the reason that meditation increases dopamine concentrations in the synaptic cleft be the reason for its relation with psychosis? Again, I am dusty on this subject right now.

Also, employers often offer mindfulness courses to teach employees acceptance of difficult work situations they should rather fight. This use of mindfulness as an "anesthetic" is totally wrong.

I don't think using mindfulness as an anesthetic is intrinsically wrong, but yes I agree that using it for the purpose of exploiting your employees more successfully is very wrong.

 

[Chinmoku]

That's a bit of a difficult question because I've meditated on and off for the few of years, switching between techniques, mindsets and purposes. I'll share a bit of my life story if you don't mind.

Thank you for doing this, @StoneInFocus, sharing one's intimate experiences is not easy.

I initially started meditating to deal with my tinnitus and racing thoughts. I had just moved from my home place to a different city, on a bad note with my parents, and had practically no interaction with my peers. So a bit like a monk I was already physically and emotionally detached from "home". A few months later after I had discovered meditation I came into contact with Buddhism through Julius Evola's 'The Doctrine of Awakening', which is an exposition of the original Pali canon.

Haven't read that one. There is an old compilation of Buddhist parts from the Pali canon called "the gospel of Buddha" by Paul Carus. I read that. Then I read "old path white clouds" by Thich Nhat Hnan, he basically removed anything mystical and supernatural but the life of the Buddha was a little rearranged to be perfect. His abandoning Yashodara with child, for example, is reformulated to make it all look good but I find it unconvincing. It's a good book but I almost prefer Carus'. Will have to check Evola if this crazy thing calms down.

Reading this book initiated the intellectual desire in me to reach Nibbana. Fast forward a couple of years of spending most of my time alone, living a small room in a dirty apartment, to the start of the COVID-19 pandemic. I moved back in with my parents. I started to feel suicidal after meditation sessions. I realized the path I was walking on would end dead. So I quit.

This confirms that meditation in the wrong setting can be dangerous. Do you think a good teacher or perhaps a meditation group could have changed this? Often during COVID-19 a few would meet via Zoom.

When I was staying with my parents my connection with them was a bit restored. I wanted to move back to my other city. I was kicked out of my jail cell, so I moved to a much bigger, lighter room in a house with an actual living room. In the summer of that year, after years of abstinence from weed and alcohol, I came into contact with Ketamine through a friend of mine. I started experimenting with drugs. I developed pain hyperacusis because of the partying without hearing protection. The hyperacusis was extremely damaging to my mood and social life. I literally started to slowly lose my mind because of the drugs. I slept at extremely irregular times. I won't go in to details in this forum but my mind was in a very dark place. Thought I was the reincarnation of Jesus Christ. Almost attempted suicide during a bad Psilocybin trip. But a few months later, a few puffs from a joint was the straw that broke the camels back. The days after smoking I became extremely agitated. Ran around the neighborhood because of anxiety so bad it was literally painful. Thought God was going to send me to hell. Tinnitus through the roof. Lost all hope because of hyperacusis. Discussed the possibility of suicide with my mother. Had to visit a psychiatric emergency service. I was prescribed an anti-psychotic drug. Moved back in with my parents. Very slowly started to get better. The almost-suicide incident changed my worldview forever. I realized that if I didn't profoundly change my ways, I would undoubtedly end up insane and killing myself.

This is a most dramatic ordeal. But during this phase you didn't meditate, I understand? Below you compare the effects of meditation with psychedelics and other substances but it's funny the noble eightfold path recommends avoiding any intoxicating substances. I wonder whether that rule was put for medical reason. It's true the effects can be similar at times but with meditation you develop them slowly and with more control, in a more natural way, although your experience above shows this is not risk free either. But ketamina and cannabis affected you very dramatically.

The rich get richer and the poor get poorer. Started to fix my extremely poor self esteem. Stopped thinking ego was bad anymore. Used meditation to get the discipline to change my bad habits. Became serious about my physical health again. Looked for inspiration and guidance in powerful men (had a father but never a father figure). Stopped shaming and started embracing my desires and libido. Utterly determined to heal from hyperacusis. Thoughts about suicide are not welcome in my head anymore. Just started the Wim Hof method. My life feels more meaningful than ever. Now I am finally equipped to deal with life's storms without resorting to contemplative escapism. Finally feel purpose. Hyperacusis is on the healing path. Utterly determined to make the absolute best of my life. But realize there is still a long way to go.

Here meditation/mindfulness doesn't seem to have played a big role? It looks almost like something you had to break free from. Maybe a wrong idea of mindfulness. Or was it helping on the background?

I think the fact that most teachers don't recommend meditating for a specific purpose is precisely where the danger lies. We all have certain conscious or unconscious desires and goals when we meditate. If we do not really know what we want to achieve with meditation, then how can we know whether or not it is actually good for us?

I think the point is becoming aware or more aware of the desires, especially the unconscious ones, and watch them without judgement, as everything else? Again a good master is fundamental here.

Certainly meditation is not some sort of magic ritual which somehow brings inner peace about, right? There is actually a certain type of mechanism underlying the effectiveness of meditation which all these teachers, from the Buddha to Goenka, have tapped into. I don't know if you have any experience in this regard but phenomenologically speaking, the experience of taking stimulant drugs is very similar to the experience emerging from a more attention/absorption type of meditative session.

I see what you say but Buddhism has two types of meditation. If I recall correctly they are the last two points of to he eightfold path. One is calming meditation/absorption/samadhi, the other one is mindfulness / vipassana. They are two different practices as far as I understand .

I am a little but rusty on the neuroscience, so I will get back to that in a later post, but this very short article discusses how meditation influences brain circuitry. I hope that one day meditation is shredded from its cloud of spiritual mystery and we will look at it as just another type of drug. Which means: Helpful in certain cases, unnecessary to take with no problems present, but potentially dangerous as well.

I think this is already happening. We have clinical trials for mindfulness applied to many condition. Last year I was proposed one for visual snow. There was no spiritual mystery there. Neither there was any in the mindfulness for tinnitus trial.

Yes, have you read the story of Megan Vogt, who went psychotic during a 10 day Vipassana retreat? I have to make the connection with stimulants here again. This article goes into the role of neurotransmitters in meditation and behaviour. The article reads that "another study that incorporated PET scans observed an increase in dopamine levels in the ventral striatum of participants during practice of Yoga Nidra meditation." Could the reason that meditation increases dopamine concentrations in the synaptic cleft be the reason for its relation with psychosis? Again, I am dusty on this subject right now.

There are several effects, including on the amygdala, but yes, for people with latent psychosis this may be dangerous.

I don't think using mindfulness as an anesthetic is intrinsically wrong, but yes I agree that using it for the purpose of exploiting your employees more successfully is very wrong.

It's curious because a couple of teachers I saw view mindfulness more as provocation than anesthetic, at least in the beginning. Anesthetic could be more the other type of meditation I mentioned above. For tinnitus, they said, we are inviting you to experience it more fully and without filters (I don't know how in my case).

Thank you again for reporting your experience, very interesting read, but I'm a little confused. From reading it I don't have the impression that meditation helped your hyperacusis and tinnitus but more other factors like psychedelics, Wim Hof and some deep realizations that didn't seem to come from mindfulness. So would you say that mindfulness has not been fundamental in your case to live with these conditions?

 

[Chinmoku]

Do you mean adverse effects of psychedelics?

Yes but they said side effects more generally. For example, getting euphoric might not be seen as adverse but can create problems in some contexts

I am sorry. Is there anything you have tried that has had any discernible effect on the tinnitus? Any luck with the benzos, including moving over to a different one?

I only tried Clonazepam and Diazepam. They are not helping. I tried a ton of medications from several studies, no luck. I tried Lenire. I tried so many other things. too many, I'm making a list to show to posterity that I didn't give up easily.

 

[StoneInFocus]

@Chinmoku thanks for taking the time to read all of my ramblings.

I see what you say but Buddhism has two types of meditation. If I recall correctly they are the last two points of to he eightfold path. One is calming meditation/absorption/samadhi, the other one is mindfulness / vipassana. They are two different practices as far as I understand .

Yes, I agree. I wanted to talk about samadhi meditation in this case because this is what I practiced most diligently, and which is also a more "heavier", more stimulant-like form of meditation in my opinion, hence why it is more problematic in my case. It's different from my practice when I deal with my tinnitus specifically.

Thank you again for reporting your experience, very interesting read, but I'm a little confused. From reading it I don't have the impression that meditation helped your hyperacusis and tinnitus but more other factors like psychedelics, Wim Hof and some deep realizations that didn't seem to come from mindfulness. So would you say that mindfulness has not been fundamental in your case to live with these conditions?

I understand my story is a bit unclear. When I use mindfulness meditation for tinnitus, it directly has a calming effect for me. For instance, when I lay in bed and I am anxious about my tinnitus, I observe my breath and the tinnitus sounds for a bit, and the anxiety about these sounds fade away. I feel like mindfulness meditation is like a direct, surface-level bandage for when the tinnitus is particularly severe. But, the practices I've mentioned before like fixing self esteem, changing my nihilistic mindset, optimizing my health etc has improved my mind-body system in a more holistic way, which indirectly changed the way about how I felt about my tinnitus and hyperacusis. Meditation for the sake of gaining discipline was also part of this larger, deeper process of self-healing. So its important to make a conceptual distinction between meditation as an immediate medicine for stress, anxiety etc and meditation as part of a larger journey of self-actualization (me) or self-realization (Gautama Siddhartha), or how you would call it "helping in the background."

This is a most dramatic ordeal. But during this phase you didn't meditate, I understand? Below you compare the effects of meditation with psychedelics and other substances but it's funny the noble eightfold path recommends avoiding any intoxicating substances. I wonder whether that rule was put for medical reason. It's true the effects can be similar at times but with meditation you develop them slowly and with more control, in a more natural way, although your experience above shows this is not risk free either. But ketamina and cannabis affected you very dramatically.

I've said that performing samadhi meditation has similar effects to taking a stimulant drug. The experience of emerging right after a longer, attention-heavy meditation session is similar to that of experiencing the peak of a stimulant drug. Wim Hof actually talks about this as well in his book. So meditation is not only slowly developing certain qualities of the mind, a meditation session can also have a direct effect on concentrations of neurotransmitters and how active certain parts of the brain are. When I learned how to drive a car for instance I meditated for like half an hour before each driving session to get into a highly focused flow state.

I think the point is becoming aware or more aware of the desires, especially the unconscious ones, and watch them without judgement, as everything else? Again a good master is fundamental here.

I know that's how they usually teach it, but I am very skeptical about the use of vipassana meditation as some sort of psychoanalytical tool. This type of approach typically characterizes 'desires' or 'ego' as intrinsically problematic and proclaim that the awareness and ultimate cessation of these psychic phenomena is the solution to all spiritual problems. I think that vipassana meditation cannot truly heal traumas. Having perfect awareness or insight in these phenomena is not equal to happiness or self-actualization.

Then I read "old path white clouds" by Thich Nhat Hnan, he basically removed anything mystical and supernatural but the life of the Buddha was a little rearranged to be perfect. His abandoning Yashodara with child, for example, is reformulated to make it all look good but I find it unconvincing.

very important point you make here.
If you read into the life of Gautama Siddhartha you'll find out he was actually a deeply psychologically disturbed man. This article suggests Siddhartha suffered from PTSD related to his war experiences: https://www.historynet.com/buddha-enlightened-warrior/. In my opinion, there is a possibility he was schizophrenic too. Only by developing iron discipline over his psychic lie he could take control of his tormented mind. But that's not the same as being a happy, self-actualized person.

And this is the crux of why I said a lot of Western teachers, professors, gurus etc cannot be trusted to give adequate guidance. Because in their minds, Gautama Siddhartha is the personification of the Dharma, the perfect doctrine. Because the Buddha meditated for hours and days on end in the same spot, a 10-day vipassana course is totally appropriate for Westerners looking for "happiness" or reduced stress, right? These people believe that all psychic problems can be solved by just meditating more. So when someone is experiencing suicidal thoughts or psychotic behaviour, it's obvious to these teachers they should just meditate more, because the root of all problems is a lack of awareness, is it not? But the Buddha's conception of Nibbana is totally different from the Western conception of happiness or eudaimonia. And that is why people can meditate for years on end without getting anywhere. Because classic Buddhist types of meditation are not designed to achieve what these Westerners want.

 

[Pitseleh]

Please share how you detach emotion from tinnitus.

Hi Deb!

The best way you can do this is by finding a truly professional hypnologist you can consult with (whether he is a psychiatrist or not, it doesn't matter as long as he knows what he is doing). Give them a call, explain your issues, be honest with them but most important: test them on the phone.

Here are a few tips to find someone who knows what he/she is talking about:

- If a hypnologist tells you he can "cure" you, run away.
- If a hypnologist tells you hypnosis is not manipulation, run away. He's lying.
- If a hypnologist mentions "magic", "magnetism" or any kind of esoteric stuff, run away.
- If he says he has a solution for you, run away. He doesn't. Only you have it, but you have to learn how to find it and he can help with that.
- If he never heard of tinnitus : it's OK. This should not be a dealbreaker for you. Yet, if he is not ready to learn about tinnitus, run away.
- If he gives you a predefined number of how many consults you will need : run away. There is no way to know.

I just want to make something clear though: I did not habituate to tinnitus. It has nothing to do with it.

My tinnitus is way worse now than it was when I started hypnosis and is still getting worse from a purely "decibel/number of frequencies" point of view. So it's not habituation working, it's just practice and working on manipulating my own brain.

My fellow tinnitus sufferers above are mainly focusing on meditation and minfulness, which is not a field I know much about, so I won't comment on that.

Hypnosis works in a very different way, which is why I am no more taking part in the thread :=)

 

[bobvann]

I do think the MCBT instructor did not understand tinnitus per say. It was for a group with depression. The part that perhaps may have been relevant is there was one person seeking help with chronic pain management who wound up dropping out. That was the therapist recommended by the clinic.

BTW I do appreciate folks like @StoneInFocus, @fishbone, @GeorgeLG that offer their view point and unlike our "resident expert" actually take time to listen and have mature discussions with people who have opposing views.

 

[Sevv]

I just want to make something clear though: I did not habituate to tinnitus. It has nothing to do with it

Would it be a correct assumption that hypnosis is an active separation of tinnitus and emotional reaction, whereas habituation would be passive (unconscious) separation?
Or what are your benefits? Less suffering? I'm just interested if this could also be a path for me as I do have some experience with hypnosis.

 

[Uklawyer]

I only tried Clonazepam and Diazepam. They are not helping. I tried a ton of medications from several studies, no luck. I tried Lenire. I tried so many other things. too many, I'm making a list to show to posterity that I didn't give up easily

I do not doubt it for a second. Just read a guy that runs places in Costa Rica and Mexico claim he has cured people of tinnitus with Iboga. This woman that wants to talk to people about chronic illness I mentioned previously has gotten in touch. Apparently she was helped by it too for TBI and other illness.

Makes you think...

End of hijack.

 

[Chinmoku]

@Chinmoku thanks for taking the time to read all of my ramblings.

It's actually quite interesting. You make some unorthodox points about meditation that should receive more attention. Also, your points on the Buddha are new to me but I had similar thoughts based on my reading between the lines of the canon.

Yes, I agree. I wanted to talk about samadhi meditation in this case because this is what I practiced most diligently, and which is also a more "heavier", more stimulant-like form of meditation in my opinion, hence why it is more problematic in my case. It's different from my practice when I deal with my tinnitus specifically.

From what I understand, samadhi meditation (let's call it that way) must precede vipassana/mindfulness. Otherwise, if your mind is not disciplined and calm and sharp, the practice of mindfulness may become counterproductive or even dangerous. This is why in Buddhism samadhi meditation is right before vipassana in the path. But practically none of the lay mindfulness teachers I met remembers this point. They all ignore samadhi meditation.

So its important to make a conceptual distinction between meditation as an immediate medicine for stress, anxiety etc and meditation as part of a larger journey of self-actualization (me) or self-realization (Gautama Siddhartha), or how you would call it "helping in the background."

Ok I had never considered these two layers, because they always say it's without purpose, but that has never sounded extremely convincing. If one takes a mindfulness course for tinnitus or chronic pain of course one has a purpose. They say not to attach to it but is it humanly possible?

I've said that performing samadhi meditation has similar effects to taking a stimulant drug.

I partly agree, I found our previous discussion confusing because we didn't distinguish the two types of meditation.

I know that's how they usually teach it, but I am very skeptical about the use of vipassana meditation as some sort of psychoanalytical tool. This type of approach typically characterizes 'desires' or 'ego' as intrinsically problematic and proclaim that the awareness and ultimate cessation of these psychic phenomena is the solution to all spiritual problems. I think that vipassana meditation cannot truly heal traumas. Having perfect awareness or insight in these phenomena is not equal to happiness or self-actualization.

This is quite an original take. I don't know if they require cessation, that would be too ambitious, the claim is that as awareness increases the attachment to the psychic phenomena decreases. The phenomena are still there but you don't identify with it. This is the theory. I wonder what this can do to people with some specific mental conditions or if it can even trigger them on people who are latent.

If you read into the life of Gautama Siddhartha you'll find out he was actually a deeply psychologically disturbed man. This article suggests Siddhartha suffered from PTSD related to his war experiences: https://www.historynet.com/buddha-enlightened-warrior/. In my opinion, there is a possibility he was schizophrenic too. Only by developing iron discipline over his psychic lie he could take control of his tormented mind. But that's not the same as being a happy, self-actualized person.

And this is the crux of why I said a lot of Western teachers, professors, gurus etc cannot be trusted to give adequate guidance. Because in their minds, Gautama Siddhartha is the personification of the Dharma, the perfect doctrine. Because the Buddha meditated for hours and days on end in the same spot, a 10-day vipassana course is totally appropriate for Westerners looking for "happiness" or reduced stress, right? These people believe that all psychic problems can be solved by just meditating more. So when someone is experiencing suicidal thoughts or psychotic behaviour, it's obvious to these teachers they should just meditate more, because the root of all problems is a lack of awareness, is it not? But the Buddha's conception of Nibbana is totally different from the Western conception of happiness or eudaimonia. And that is why people can meditate for years on end without getting anywhere. Because classic Buddhist types of meditation are not designed to achieve what these Westerners want

Yes I thought many times that despite the exaltation of Buddha in the canon (and Thich Nhat Hnan even went beyond that to remove all residual doubts) there were some quite perplexing aspects. I admire a large part of Buddha's life and his noble protest against Hinduism, his ignoring the class system, his invitation to man to take their salvation in their own hand and not rely on the Hindu gods, but some parts of his bio always struck me as less than saintly. Abandoning Yashodara? Naming your son as a constraint? Getting incredibly upset in adult age for seeing an old man, a sick man and a dead man? There are many weird things. And that's fine. Zen masters say, if you meet the Buddha kill him. We should not idolize him but kill him if he becomes an obstacle to practice.

Good, lots of stuff to think about, which I will do if this electric torture gives me pause.

 

[DebInAustralia]

Hi Deb!

The best way you can do this is by finding a truly professional hypnologist you can consult with (whether he is a psychiatrist or not, it doesn't matter as long as he knows what he is doing). Give them a call, explain your issues, be honest with them but most important: test them on the phone.

Here are a few tips to find someone who knows what he/she is talking about:

- If a hypnologist tells you he can "cure" you, run away.
- If a hypnologist tells you hypnosis is not manipulation, run away. He's lying.
- If a hypnologist mentions "magic", "magnetism" or any kind of esoteric stuff, run away.
- If he says he has a solution for you, run away. He doesn't. Only you have it, but you have to learn how to find it and he can help with that.
- If he never heard of tinnitus : it's OK. This should not be a dealbreaker for you. Yet, if he is not ready to learn about tinnitus, run away.
- If he gives you a predefined number of how many consults you will need : run away. There is no way to know.

I just want to make something clear though: I did not habituate to tinnitus. It has nothing to do with it.

My tinnitus is way worse now than it was when I started hypnosis and is still getting worse from a purely "decibel/number of frequencies" point of view. So it's not habituation working, it's just practice and working on manipulating my own brain.

My fellow tinnitus sufferers above are mainly focusing on meditation and minfulness, which is not a field I know much about, so I won't comment on that.

Hypnosis works in a very different way, which is why I am no more taking part in the thread :=)

Thank you for your advice. Greatly appreciated. I am really interested in hypnosis. I have been seeing someone for anxiety using hypnosis and I do find it helpful.

Would you consider creating your own thread on hypnosis here? I think a lot of us would really benefit from your wisdom and expertise.

So I am clear, when you say that you did not habituate to your tinnitus, and that your improvement came as a result of practice and working on manipulating your brain, did you mean that hypnosis has helped facilitate habituation for you?

Thanks again for your insights.

 

[Chinmoku]

Your unconscious mind if way way more powerful than your conscious mind. If you treat it with the respect it deserves, it will help you. Can it shut down all of your tinnitus sounds? Yes, of course it can, you would just need a lot of hypnotic training with a professional (I'm not talking 10 or 20 sessions with esoteric gurus or light-therapist and "magical healing specialist", I'm talking about working with hypnologists that can teach you to love every part of you who are. Because maybe if you love every part of yourself, than maybe... just maybe, you can start a discussion with it and ask it to do you a favor and shut down the noise).

If your brain can make 80 dB music vanish, it can make a hiss/low hum/static/pure tone tinnitus vanish as well. OF COURSE it can.

But you can make a quicker and easier choice, as I did: detach emotion from pain, detach emotion from tinnitus. The result is the same: you don't care about tinnitus because you love the person you are. You just have tinnitus like you have blue, green or brown eyes, white, black or brown skin.

@Pitseleh, I was thinking about this. My tinnitus is so bad that no amount of self-compassion or self-love seems to be doing anything. I'm reaching the end as it is at an unbearable level and it keeps worsening. It has ruined my marriage, my job, and impacting heavily my kids life.

You make a very strong claim here but a claim that could save lives.

There are a few things I don't understand.

From what you wrote above you could have tinnitus conscious perception eliminated with a long stream of hypnosis sessions from a colleague but instead you decided to keep your tinnitus and love yourself? This doesn't make sense to me. Why not go for the elimination then?

Even with all the love of this world this symptom can be so disabling to lead people to take their lives. I don't think that Gaby or Kent or other friends too close to home lacked self love. If hypnosis can really work on the symptom perception, which seems to partly agree with the study you quoted, this is extremely important, why kind of dismiss it by saying we take a shortcut and love ourselves with the catastrophic impact this condition had and is having in our lives?

Let me ask you: are you confident that, with as many sessions as needed, you can lead a client to shut down the perception? Do you work also in remote or via video appointments? If not, can you recommend anyone in London?

I tried hypnosis previously but it didn't do much for me. The therapist was very very experienced and mentioned I was abandoning myself to the process well. Yet no benefits. Can you help me? I'm sure many here have the same question.

 

[Uklawyer]

I tried hypnosis previously but it didn't do much for me. The therapist was very very experienced and mentioned I was abandoning myself to the process well. Yet no benefits.

I did hypnotherapy with someone that an ENT here in France recommended specifically for tinnitus. She had a protocol with 3 separate, recorded sessions that I was to listen to, each for a period of 3 weeks. I saw her each time for the session that was recorded, then went off and listened at night. I also had an introductory session for anxiety.

I fell asleep listening to hypnosis nearly every night (i.e. before it finished - each session was c. 30 minutes). I was also taking c. 5 mg of Valium I believe.

I was wondering if it was helping me and I liked some of the imagery in the hypnosis. But it was still there at the end of the protocol. I contacted her and she seemed a little surprised given that it had appeared to be doing something. She told me to listen to the first session again for 3 weeks and then report back. At the time, I must have been trying something else or going through a harder time, because I did not try again.

@Chinmoku - see my thread in the Alternative Treatments on Iboga. Looks potentially interesting. Seems that you need to try something else, possibly a bit more radical, to try to get somewhere with this.

 

[Chinmoku]

I did hypnotherapy with someone that an ENT here in France recommended specifically for tinnitus. She had a protocol with 3 separate, recorded sessions that I was to listen to, each for a period of 3 weeks. I saw her each time for the session that was recorded, then went off and listened at night. I also had an introductory session for anxiety.

I fell asleep listening to hypnosis nearly every night (i.e. before it finished - each session was c. 30 minutes). I was also taking c. 5 mg of Valium I believe.

I was wondering if it was helping me and I liked some of the imagery in the hypnosis. But it was still there at the end of the protocol. I contacted her and she seemed a little surprised given that it had appeared to be doing something. She told me to listen to the first session again for 3 weeks and then report back. At the time, I must have been trying something else or going through a harder time, because I did not try again.

@Chinmoku - see my thread in the Alternative Treatments on Iboga. Looks potentially interesting. Seems that you need to try something else, possibly a bit more radical, to try to get somewhere with this.

Yes, I think hypnosis is very tricky. We had a couple of hypnologists here in the forum in the past, Andrew Parr (London) and Paul Hughes (in the US I believe), promoting hypnosis for tinnitus, but the evidence for hypnosis to be effective is very limited. That's why I asked @Pitseleh above, because I would like to understand whether hypnosis can really help or not, especially very severe cases. Both you and I seem to have witnessed little efficacy.

I will look into the Iboga thread, thank you for the heads up.

 

[StoneInFocus]

From what I understand, samadhi meditation (let's call it that way) must precede vipassana/mindfulness. Otherwise, if your mind is not disciplined and calm and sharp, the practice of mindfulness may become counterproductive or even dangerous. This is why in Buddhism samadhi meditation is right before vipassana in the path. But practically none of the lay mindfulness teachers I met remembers this point. They all ignore samadhi meditation.

It's good that you mention this, I know that is how samadhi and vipassana meditation are typically characterized by a lot of Western teachers. For instance, if I remember correctly, the first few days of a Goenka Vipassana course are spent developing concentration skills, after which the student is supposed to apply this attention to phenomena to gain insight in their nature and their interaction between each other.

But theoretically, this is a later development in the history of Buddhism and not something the Buddha actually taught. It's totally understandable this is how you conceptualize the relationship between these two types of meditation because of how widespread this idea is. I mean, when you google "8thfold path" on Images the engine typically returns two types of pictures of Dharma wheels. The first type labels the 6th spoke Right Concentration and the 7th spoke Right Mindfulness, the other type labels them vice versa. After some time actually researching the original Pali doctrine I came to the conclusion that the term "Vipassana meditation" is not actually mentioned in the canon, but that this technique refers to what is called "mindfulness of breathing" (Anapanasati), a type of mind-object-contemplation. As you see in the graph below, mind-object contemplation is part of the Right Mindfulness path. I know that in order to contemplate the relationship between the mind and its objects you need a certain amount of attention or 'concentration', which can developed by the other paths such as Right Action, but that is semantically different from samma samadhi, or Right Concentration. As you see in the graph, Right Concentration is constituted by the dwelling in the jhana's, which is conceptualized as being distinct from mindfulness meditation. Mindfulness meditation and concentration meditation are two separate but interrelated practices from the 8thfold path.

It's not surprising the mindfulness teachers you met skip over this part of the doctrine. According to Keren Arbe,

"anyone who heard about the jhanas in most traditional Theravada practice environments heard that these states are not necessary for insight and awakening. However, anyone who read the suttas, quickly realize, that these four states, appear repeatedly in the Buddha's descriptions of the path to liberation. Reading the suttas over many years I have found many passages in which the Buddha refers to the four jhanas as intrinsic and essential to the development of liberating wisdom and awakening. The four jhanas were certainly fundamental in the Buddha's own path to awakening."

Yes I thought many times that despite the exaltation of Buddha in the canon (and Thich Nhat Hnan even went beyond that to remove all residual doubts) there were some quite perplexing aspects. I admire a large part of Buddha's life and his noble protest against Hinduism, his ignoring the class system, his invitation to man to take their salvation in their own hand and not rely on the Hindu gods, but some parts of his bio always struck me as less than saintly. Abandoning Yashodara? Naming your son as a constraint? Getting incredibly upset in adult age for seeing an old man, a sick man and a dead man? There are many weird things. And that's fine. Zen masters say, if you meet the Buddha kill him. We should not idolize him but kill him if he becomes an obstacle to practice.

Good, lots of stuff to think about, which I will do if this electric torture gives me pause.

If there is one thing I learnt is that no person, religion, ideology or practice is perfect. Even the greatest saints and the cleverest philosophers each had their flaws and blind spots. You just got the select the good stuff from these things while filtering the bullcrap out.

 

[Pitseleh]

So I'll try and reply to all the quotes up here

@Pitseleh,

From what you wrote above you could have tinnitus conscious perception eliminated with a long stream of hypnosis sessions from a colleague but instead you decided to keep your tinnitus and love yourself? This doesn't make sense to me. Why not go for the elimination then?

(Skipping to the next question) : Yet no benefits. Can you help me? I'm sure many here have the same question.

Regarding the first question: well, it is not as simple as I made it sound, but I am sure you are aware of that. Remember, it took me years to get there, so the whole process is more complex than just "deciding" to love myself. I'll try and give an answer anyway: we all know here science cannot cure tinnitus. There is something not working within our auditory system/brain, and we don't know exactly what and why. What we all need here is a cure, period and I cannot stress that enough. Science will bring as a cure. When? We don't know.

So then hypnosis comes into play, not selling a "cure", but bringing back a life that's worth living. I realized at some point, after years of suffering, going through months and months (probably years tbh) of suicidal thoughts, that it was not about fighting the problem (winning or losing the fight), but not living it as a fight anymore and focusing on reaching something else that I had lost on the way.

For me, it was love. I had completely buried inside what love was. Self-love mostly.

For someone else, it could be a completely different experience. Maybe your tinnitus has buried the fun in your life. Maybe your tinnitus has buried the joy in your life. Maybe it has buried your sexuality? Your pride?

It is not about how many things it has buried, it is about what biggest value in your life it has buried. It is about what you don't feel anymore because of tinnitus that you need to feel to keep on enjoying your life on earth.

There is something that already exists inside yourself that is more valuable than a sound and that you've lost BECAUSE of a sound (or many sounds, but it's not important).

It led me to find a psychological balance, a stability. It allowed me to wake up, one morning, my ears blasting louder than ever, but with a smile on my face because I FELT (it's subconscious, it's not something you decide) love for who I am. So, dying was not an option anymore. Crying was not an option because I had this love inside and, for me, living with love is what living is all about.

Now, regarding eliminating the sound: I could spent months and months more and train my brain to shut it down. But really, why would I? It would take me so much time and energy that I could use for something that brings me more love! I'm done fighting this sound, I'm OK with my severe tinnitus, it's just who I am.

One day, a cure will come. I'll buy it.

Will I be happier with less tinnitus or no tinnitus?

Not sure.

I am happy, I have a daughter I would give everything for, I have a wife, 2 dogs, and patients that I love too, that teach me so many things everyday about how brain can become an amazing tool when used appropriately.

I think the quest for silence is the biggest danger when you suffer severe tinnitus and hyperacusis. I'll stop here.

As to the evidence for hypnosis helping tinnitus being limited: I've never met someone in real life with tinnitus as severe as I have, really. People never believe me when I try and explain to them what I hear everyday and night.

Yet, I am enjoying my time on earth.

My own evidence is enough to me when I remember 4 years ago when I would have jumped off a bridge had I not discovered hypnosis. I don't need more evidence. But I understand other people do. Yet, my patients show me everyday that hypnosis can change you in crazy ways.

Regarding the second question asking if I can I help you. Unfortunately, I personally can't, because English is not my mother tongue and hypnosis is a language-based therapy.

Let me ask you: are you confident that, with as many sessions as needed, you can lead a client to shut down the perception? Do you work also in remote or via video appointments? If not, can you recommend anyone in London?

Sorry man, I had skipped this part of your post.

An answer through 3 examples:

If a client asks me: "I need to do something with my tinnitus and I realize I can't consciously do anything, can you help me?", I'll say "Yes, I'll try."

If a client asks me "I will pay you 300 000 € if you can shut down my noise", I will decline to even work with him, because the goal itself is flawed/wrong and he is not ready for hypnosis.

If a client comes in and says: "You (or any other hypnologist) have helped me live with my tinnitus, and now I feel fine, but I would love to experiment further, have fun and see how far my brain can go and shut it down", I won't even make him pay and make appointments with him every week, for the fun of it.

Client n°1 will most likely benefit appointments.
Client n°2 needs yet to realize treatments do not exist and I am not a guru but he's clearly not ready to accept it. He will not benefit hypnosis because his expectations are not correct.
Client n°3 we could do wonders.

Thank you for your advice. Greatly appreciated. I am really interested in hypnosis. I have been seeing someone for anxiety using hypnosis and I do find it helpful.

Would you consider creating your own thread on hypnosis here? I think a lot of us would really benefit from your wisdom and expertise.

So I am clear, when you say that you did not habituate to your tinnitus, and that your improvement came as a result of practice and working on manipulating your brain, did you mean that hypnosis has helped facilitate habituation for you?

Thanks again for your insights.

I will not create a thread, because hypnosis is an individualized therapy. There is not a universal technique that will work for everyone.

Yet, I will do my best to reply to questions. I will not book any appointments though because again, I am French and even if my English is decent, I'm not bilingual. Also, some hypnologists like to do "video call/web call sessions", I think it's a joke. I need to see a person face to face to work with them.

Regarding your second question and habituation: I wouldn't call it a habituation process because my tinnitus is regularly louder (I mean permanent spikes) and frequencies add up. It's more that hypnosis has helped me completely detach my reaction to tinnitus. It's just there, it's evolving, but I don't care.

Would it be a correct assumption that hypnosis is an active separation of tinnitus and emotional reaction, whereas habituation would be passive (unconscious) separation?
Or what are your benefits? Less suffering? I'm just interested if this could also be a path for me as I do have some experience with hypnosis.

Mmmmh... beautiful question. I love it. Not sure if I have an answer though. I'll try: hypnosis works by suggesting unconscious strategies to your instincts by switching from a conscious state to a hypnotic state through hypnotic inductions. So, is it active separation ? Yes and no, because you're not communicating to the conscious part of your patient while he's into trance. Yet, you're still being active because you are, indeed, suggesting something (active).

Benefits? No suffering anymore.

 

[fishbone]

I do think the MCBT instructor did not understand tinnitus per say. It was for a group with depression. The part that perhaps may have been relevant is there was one person seeking help with chronic pain management who wound up dropping out. That was the therapist recommended by the clinic.

BTW I do appreciate folks like @StoneInFocus, @fishbone, @GeorgeLG that offer their view point and unlike our "resident expert" actually take time to listen and have mature discussions with people who have opposing views.

There are a few factors here, that make a world of difference: First, it is all about choosing a specific group, possible treatment that shares what we hope to achieve. There are so so many different groups these days, they may say that they can do something (and they might), but it cannot be general. If my focus is "tinnitus", then my group or possible treatments should understand what I deal with.

Second, this could actually be first but I'll leave it at second. It's all about going in with an "OPEN MIND", this is very important. It's all about going in with the feeling, that this new group can be helpful to me. If we go in with the thinking that "this might not help at all", then we have already framed our mind to not make it work.

The auto-suggestion and the framing of our unconscious mind is what drives us each and every day. it's our motivation, desire, drive, willpower, it is very important. If I want to learn something or try something new, I will go in with an open mind.

No matter what it is. I will first be very specific (on what I want to achieve), be very specific (on the group, tool, treatment) and then go in with an open mind.

If makes absolutely no sense, to go in without an open mind.

This applies, to possible CBT treatments, or anything else that might be a goal or an objective for us.

 

[Sevv]

Mmmmh... beautiful question. I love it. Not sure if I have an answer though. I'll try: hypnosis works by suggesting unconscious strategies to your instincts by switching from a conscious state to a hypnotic state through hypnotic inductions. So, is it active separation ? Yes and no, because you're not communicating to the conscious part of your patient while he's into trance. Yet, you're still being active because you are, indeed, suggesting something (active).

Benefits? No suffering anymore.

I gave myself the suggestion yesterday that when I hear tinnitus (though it translated more to "listening to") I am relaxed. Now I can calm down despite the relatively loud ringing if I listen out for my tinnitus (I can't be constantly relaxed, otherwise I wouldn't function anymore). I'll keep experimenting around. I kinda don't dare though to give myself the suggestion "I love my tinnitus". Seems too creepy.

It's indeed not habituation, since habituation means that tinnitus doesn't elicit a reaction anymore (or at least a vastly reduced one). For hypnosis however, it's more of a change how you react to it. As far as I know, the suggestion "I will not react to it" shouldn't work because I've been informed that the word "not" is not registered by yourself when used in a suggestion.

 

[AnthonyMcDonald]

I gave myself the suggestion yesterday that when I hear tinnitus (though it translated more to "listening to") I am relaxed. Now I can calm down despite the relatively loud ringing if I listen out for my tinnitus (I can't be constantly relaxed, otherwise I wouldn't function anymore). I'll keep experimenting around. I kinda don't dare though to give myself the suggestion "I love my tinnitus". Seems too creepy.

It's indeed not habituation, since habituation means that tinnitus doesn't elicit a reaction anymore (or at least a vastly reduced one). For hypnosis however, it's more of a change how you react to it. As far as I know, the suggestion "I will not react to it" shouldn't work because I've been informed that the word "not" is not registered by yourself when used in a suggestion.

So you say your ringing is loud but you have to listen for it to "hear it" and don't "hear it" all the time?

 

[Wrfortiscue]

So you say your ringing is loud but you have to listen for it to "hear it" and don't "hear it" all the time?

I can hear mine all the time and can't mask it usually... my brain does block it out if I'm really focused or busy.

 

[Chinmoku]

After some time actually researching the original Pali doctrine I came to the conclusion that the term "Vipassana meditation" is not actually mentioned in the canon, but that this technique refers to what is called "mindfulness of breathing" (Anapanasati), a type of mind-object-contemplation. As you see in the graph below, mind-object contemplation is part of the Right Mindfulness path. I know that in order to contemplate the relationship between the mind and its objects you need a certain amount of attention or 'concentration', which can developed by the other paths such as Right Action, but that is semantically different from samma samadhi, or Right Concentration. As you see in the graph, Right Concentration is constituted by the dwelling in the jhana's, which is conceptualized as being distinct from mindfulness meditation. Mindfulness meditation and concentration meditation are two separate but interrelated practices from the 8thfold path.

I never realized this. You really did delve into the Pali canon. I recall the jhanas being mentioned and I remember awareness of breathing (Thich Nhat Hnan wrote a whole book on that sutra) but the term "vipassana" I don't remember at all, that's true.

It's not surprising the mindfulness teachers you met skip over this part of the doctrine. According to Keren Arbe,

"anyone who heard about the jhanas in most traditional Theravada practice environments heard that these states are not necessary for insight and awakening. However, anyone who read the suttas, quickly realize, that these four states, appear repeatedly in the Buddha's descriptions of the path to liberation. Reading the suttas over many years I have found many passages in which the Buddha refers to the four jhanas as intrinsic and essential to the development of liberating wisdom and awakening. The four jhanas were certainly fundamental in the Buddha's own path to awakening."

I agree with this and it's a good point to note that the two practices are in fact interrelated. I think I didn't do enough samadhi meditation in my practice as all the emphasis has always been put on mindfulness, also in Zazen sessions.

If there is one thing I learnt is that no person, religion, ideology or practice is perfect. Even the greatest saints and the cleverest philosophers each had their flaws and blind spots. You just got the select the good stuff from these things while filtering the bullcrap out.

As I grow old I realize this more and more. I'm killing my idealized idols one by one. Again, if you meet the Buddha, kill him.

 

[Chinmoku]

@Pitseleh, thank you for taking the time to respond. I feel like you dodged my question but it's more a feeling than anything, it may be wrong.

So I'll try and reply to all the quotes up here

Regarding the first question: well, it is not as simple as I made it sound, but I am sure you are aware of that. Remember, it took me years to get there, so the whole process is more complex than just "deciding" to love myself. I'll try and give an answer anyway: we all know here science cannot cure tinnitus. There is something not working within our auditory system/brain, and we don't know exactly what and why. What we all need here is a cure, period and I cannot stress that enough. Science will bring as a cure. When? We don't know.

So then hypnosis comes into play, not selling a "cure", but bringing back a life that's worth living. I realized at some point, after years of suffering, going through months and months (probably years tbh) of suicidal thoughts, that it was not about fighting the problem (winning or losing the fight), but not living it as a fight anymore and focusing on reaching something else that I had lost on the way.

This looks almost identical to ACT, there is a sentence in the book by Steven Hayes that reads like this, almost verbatim. You realize of course that this you are saying above is not specific to tinnitus but applies to any intractable illness? So let's say you can use hypnosis to make someone who developed say MS love life again. And it is good. But hypnosis could not eliminate the MS symptoms perception. The unfortunate person won't be able to stand up from the chair. Instead, with tinnitus you say hypnosis may suppress the symptom perception altogether. I go back to Gaby and Kent, because I'm getting there too, my tinnitus is nearly unbearable, typing this is like pushing a mountain. Could hypnosis have saved them? I realize this is an impossible question but the study you posted partly opens this possibility. Probably it would take a very long time and a top hypnologist, but you say it's possible. Then why not trying? You say your tinnitus is bad and I believe you, you say it's getting worse. I believe you. But at some point it could become too much. I hope this never happens to you and fingers crossed, but this seems to me a very valid reason to try and use hypnosis to suppress the perception while one can. The volume and intrusiveness of this thing seem unbounded. It's true evil. If you have a tool that can turn the perception off you can save people, literally.

For me, it was love. I had completely buried inside what love was. Self-love mostly.

For someone else, it could be a completely different experience. Maybe your tinnitus has buried the fun in your life. Maybe your tinnitus has buried the joy in your life. Maybe it has buried your sexuality? Your pride?

It is not about how many things it has buried, it is about what biggest value in your life it has buried. It is about what you don't feel anymore because of tinnitus that you need to feel to keep on enjoying your life on earth.

Well for me it destroyed everything. Everything. family, children, professional pride, work, income, appreciation of nature, music, traveling. I understand value based living, it's ACT again, but this horrid condition blew everything up.

I am happy, I have a daughter I would give everything for, I have a wife, 2 dogs, and patients that I love too, that teach me so many things everyday about how brain can become an amazing tool when used appropriately.

I think the quest for silence is the biggest danger when you suffer severe tinnitus and hyperacusis. I'll stop here.

You are evidently wired very differently from me. I envy you. More power to you.

As to the evidence for hypnosis helping tinnitus being limited: I've never met someone in real life with tinnitus as severe as I have, really. People never believe me when I try and explain to them what I hear everyday and night.

Here I was more referring to a clinical trial. There is one showing evidence for mindfulness for example. I'm not doubting your word for a second.

Regarding the second question asking if I can I help you. Unfortunately, I personally can't, because English is not my mother tongue and hypnosis is a language-based therapy.

I do speak French. I learned it in school and I lived in France for one year. But I can't take the Eurostar indefinitely if it has to be done in person, and I understand that need. My previous experiences in London with hypnosis have been ineffective. In fact before reading your posts I had thought hypnosis was a lost cause for tinnitus. Yet you are so confident that you got me interested in it again. Pity I can't realize this potential.

 

[bobvann]

I gave myself the suggestion yesterday that when I hear tinnitus (though it translated more to "listening to") I am relaxed. Now I can calm down despite the relatively loud ringing if I listen out for my tinnitus (I can't be constantly relaxed, otherwise I wouldn't function anymore). I'll keep experimenting around. I kinda don't dare though to give myself the suggestion "I love my tinnitus". Seems too creepy.

It's indeed not habituation, since habituation means that tinnitus doesn't elicit a reaction anymore (or at least a vastly reduced one). For hypnosis however, it's more of a change how you react to it. As far as I know, the suggestion "I will not react to it" shouldn't work because I've been informed that the word "not" is not registered by yourself when used in a suggestion.

I am attempting to do the same but it is not 100% working for me. Glad it is for you.

I am living my life. Go to the gym 4 days a week. I had quit playing drums, I had sold everything.

Picking up an electronic drum kit that I will connect to powered speakers with low volume. I can tolerate my 7.1.2 Dolby Atmos full system so don't see why this won't work.

 

[Sevv]

So you say your ringing is loud but you have to listen for it to "hear it" and don't "hear it" all the time?

It's loud/high-pitched enough that only few noises mask it (shower and running faucet are still among them). So it's essentially "always there" but not quite "in your face enough" that it's always in my conscious awareness. It doesn't really seem to matter since Pitseleh's tinnitus is very severe and he can still detach emotion from it (with practice).

My unconsciousness probably modified the suggestion to "when you listen to your tinnitus" rather than "when you hear your tinnitus" since I can hear it essentially always but don't want to be relaxed all the time.

 

[Pitseleh]

@Pitseleh, thank you for taking the time to respond. I feel like you dodged my question but it's more a feeling than anything, it may be wrong.

I'm sorry that it feels like I dodged the question, I didn't mean to.

The clearest answer I can give is: I believe shutting down tinnitus is possible because I've witnessed it happen and I also experienced it myself during a decent amount of time while I was into deep trance.

It didn't last after I came out of trance, because I wasn't working on shutting down the sound during this session, but rather working on internal emotional adaptations.

Will this work systematically with every single client? I cannot say.

Can this work? Yes.