I suspect the cause is Walkman use (classical music) at higher-than-appropriate volumes in about 1990, but I cannot say for sure. I'm not questioning anyone's conclusions about cause-and-effect. I'm just wondering about a possible recent uptick despite similar headphone/earphone use in the extended past.
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Used Headphones to Watch a Show...
- Thread starter WildMan
- Start date
I suspect the cause is Walkman use (classical music) at higher-than-appropriate volumes in about 1990, but I cannot say for sure. I'm not questioning anyone's conclusions about cause-and-effect. I'm just wondering about a possible recent uptick despite similar headphone/earphone use in the extended past.
Member@BobDigi
This is the last time I will be commenting on headphone use on this thread unless someone comes up with another question that hasn't been replied to.
Your last comment in your post I am now going to answer. Someone that has "noise induced" tinnitus and habituates and uses headphones is taking a risk. As I mentioned in a post earlier, someone returned to headphone use after 6 years of habituating. The volume was kept low and within a few days the tinnitus "Spiked" and now the tinnitus will not reduce to it's previous level.
That is the risk of using headphones for somone that has noise induced tinnitus. There is no way of knowing if a spike is will calm down or remain permanent.
Michael
This is the last time I will be commenting on headphone use on this thread unless someone comes up with another question that hasn't been replied to.
Your last comment in your post I am now going to answer. Someone that has "noise induced" tinnitus and habituates and uses headphones is taking a risk. As I mentioned in a post earlier, someone returned to headphone use after 6 years of habituating. The volume was kept low and within a few days the tinnitus "Spiked" and now the tinnitus will not reduce to it's previous level.
That is the risk of using headphones for somone that has noise induced tinnitus. There is no way of knowing if a spike is will calm down or remain permanent.
Michael
- Feb 17, 2017
- 10,400
- Tinnitus Since
- February, 2017
- Cause of Tinnitus
- Acoustic Trauma
I am convinced that headphones are certainly a more common cause of noise damage and tinnitus than expected. Because especially young people listen to music much too loudly due to the clarity of the sound.
Yet I do not believe that quiet! Music or masking noises over headphones are more harmful than soft music over a bluetooth hearing aid or the same soft music over the stereo. The eardrum does not know the size of the loudspeaker membrane.
I would also always warn against headphones, because their volume is underestimated.
But basically it always depends on the volume and not on its source.
Yet I do not believe that quiet! Music or masking noises over headphones are more harmful than soft music over a bluetooth hearing aid or the same soft music over the stereo. The eardrum does not know the size of the loudspeaker membrane.
I would also always warn against headphones, because their volume is underestimated.
But basically it always depends on the volume and not on its source.
And that's the issue for me. Do I actually have an increase? Or am I just obsessing, like a person who erroneously thinks he has heart disease and is certain he's experiencing heart attack symptoms . . . similar to a psychosomatic illness.
I don't know which models do you have but the mics responsible for listening the noise should be stationary with respect to the drivers, and between those DSP must do its magic to find the signal to invert. So they most likely have be inside the cups, corded or not. And the cord should be for incoming music signal only. And btw, you can use some cordless models with a cord too. So it would be strange that the cord would have some role here (except causing annoying microphonics). But I guess anything is possible...
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I corresponded with many people whose tinnitus got worse after habituating and returning to headphone use. The choice is up to the individual what they want to do.
Michael
I hear you Bill and I have this to say: ENT doctors are physicians not tinnitus experts. They know about the anatomy of the ear and can treat it medically or surgically and this they do well. However, the majority of them no nothing about tinnitus other than what their tinnitus patients tell them. It is for this reason there are so many tinnitus forums because the only people that understand it, know how to live with it and treat it are the people that have the condition. Many Hearing Therapists and Audiologists that practice tinnitus management with tinnitus patients, were either born with tinnitus or acquired it at some time in their life. They will usually have a depth of understanding and be able to empathise with a tinnitus patient when a ENT can't.
Michael
I honestly don't see any difference in listening to music on speakers or on headphones... My tinnitus worsens either way... I mean it is not as loud as Michael describes a very loud T but it gets loud... Also, I started listening a little to music on headphones after a long time.. I use those big headphones and a very low volume... My T changes a lot in intensity with or without headphones... There are days where my T is louder for no apparent reason... I was not exposed to music or anything... And then, there are moments when it is very quiet... Also, for no apparent reason... Just makes no sense... :/
Of course, it's always a personal choice, and I agree we're sort of beating a dead horse at this point. I will continue with modified (reduced) use and see how that goes. I have been doing so for many weeks, and believe my tinnitus has not gotten any worse. Hopefully those are not famous last words . . .
I also have fluctuations for reasons seemingly unrelated to headphone use (e.g., physical exertion and leaning forward, even though my blood pressure is normal), which can complicate matters.
Please peruse some of the posts in this forum from people that have "noise induced" tinnitus. They habituated and returned to using headphones and used them at low volume. Many have regretted doing so. I say again, hopefully for the last and final time:not everyone with "noise induced" tinnitus is affected by headphone use. However, many are. Also, people that work in call centres and wear headsets for long durations, sometims 5 to 8 hrs have developed tinnitus.
Michael
Alvise
Member
- Aug 8, 2017
- 88
- 43
- Tinnitus Since
- 02/2017
- Cause of Tinnitus
- Acustic Trauma in childhood with onset after 26 years
Michael I can't understand how is possibile that if I listen with a monoaural head phone in my left ear, I could increase my T in my right.
I read about the brain, etc... but can't understand. And anyway I still don't know why I have T un the first place. A bang when I was child, then sudden hearing loss after 30 years.
I read about the brain, etc... but can't understand. And anyway I still don't know why I have T un the first place. A bang when I was child, then sudden hearing loss after 30 years.
I respect your opinion, don't get me wrong.Only the problem is: How to stop using headphpnes when you need them....
I did not say that your tinnitus will increase in your right ear @Alvise The best advice I can give you if this is what you are asking of me? Is to do what you feel comfortable doing. If you want to use monoaural headphones then go ahead and use it. If you sense that your tinnitus is getting worse then you have two choices: either continue using the headphone or stop.
I wish you well
Michael
- Feb 17, 2017
- 10,400
- Tinnitus Since
- February, 2017
- Cause of Tinnitus
- Acoustic Trauma
That is what science dictates indeed.
That seems to be the consensus among doctors too.
In some designs, the speaker is indeed ahead of the ear hook ("the hollow tube") in the pipeline, for example:
Of course that doesn't change the mechanism of action and the resulting sound waves, since the hearing aids are tuned based on the amount of energy they want your ear drum to receive, irrespective of the speaker location.
@John Smythe
Please read the post below that you might find helpful.
Michael
The habituation process.
Habituation is frequently talked about in tinnitus forums and probably comes in at second place to the popular question: when will a cure be found? It seems some people have become quite taken with this word and believe it is the most important thing to strive for when dealing with this condition. Everyone wants to habituate as soon as possible and carry on living their life doing everything that they want to and putting tinnitus firmly behind them.
I can honestly say that I see nothing wrong with that, but wanting something in the speed that we would like it isn't always achievable, especially with something like tinnitus. A few people that have had tinnitus for a while, have contacted me to discuss just that. They have concerns about the length of time it's taking to habituate. Similarly, I have heard from those new to this condition that want the habitation process to start as quickly as possible. Both groups tell me they are doing all the right things but it seems patience is giving way to despondency and despair and some are starting to believe habituation might never happen for them.
It is of little comfort to these people when they hear family and friends say, tinnitus is just a minor irritant and something that can easily be ignored. Occasionally, it might be intrusive but this is never more than temporary and they are still able to carry on with their life unperturbed. I often sense the frustration a person is under when they are relaying this to me. Whether I'm talking to them on the telephone, private messenger or answering an email. It is then that I'm often asked: why is it that the habituation process doesn't seem to be happening for them?
Answering such a question isn't easy because there is no single answer that I can provide but I will say this. Tinnitus is a common condition that comes in many forms and intensities and no two people experience it the same. It can be very troublesome especially in the early stages of onset, but gradually this gives way and the condition settles down and in time many manage to cope with it when it's mild or moderate. Sometimes this may involve treatment via a hearing therapist or a person achieves this naturally without being referred to a clinic.
It should be noted that tinnitus can be a complex condition, depending on how loud and intrusive it is for the individual? So what I've just outlined won't apply to everyone. There are other factors that also come into play. A person's make-up or rather their outlook on life. Whether they are positive or negative thinking can help or delay the habitation process. In addition to this, stress and anxiety are often associated with tinnitus and a person might be taking medication such as an antidepressant to help cope with it. There are a myriad of scenarios that I could relay to you on how tinnitus can affect someone's quality of life, their well-being and the habituation process. For now I will say this:
When a person habituates to tinnitus it means they are able cope with it but this doesn't mean they will never hear it. Although some people habituate to a level where the tinnitus is rarely heard or stays at a very low level. Whether the tinnitus is silent for periods of time or remains low, mild, moderate or is occasionally intrusive, it doesn't really matter, because it all means the same thing. When habituation is reached a person will know, because whatever the level it will not bother you. However, like everything there are exceptions and tinnitus is no different. I believe there are some limitations to habituation. As I have previously said the condition comes in many forms and intensities. Some people have variable tinnitus that can fluctuate from silent, mild, moderate and severe. When it is loud and intrusive (severe) and this level is sustained for long periods it can become very debilitating and a person might have to take medication to cope with it, which is usually supplied by their doctor. This level of sustained intrusiveness shouldn't be confused with a tinnitus spike, which usually returns to baseline within a short period of time.
I want to say that I believe habituation is achievable for most people with time. In some instances a person might need the professional help of a Hearing Therapist or Audiologist, as there are a variety of treatment options available to help one in the habituation process. One should also try to be realistic. There are some people that will accept nothing less than a complete cure from their tinnitus and this is unfortunate, because they could waste a lot of time being miserable.
I have corresponded with people that have said, their tinnitus is very low and is only heard occasionally or in a quiet room, at night for instance. Yet these people are not satisfied because they want a complete cure and will deliberately seek out quiet surroundings to monitor their tinnitus, checking to see if it has increased or not. It's as if they have become obsessed with this condition and to the point where is starts to affect their relationship with those that are close to them, and I don't think this is healthy.
In summing up I want to say one last thing. Those that are having treatment with a Hearing Therapist, Audiologist, or finding that their tinnitus is becoming less intrusive and they are in the habituation process. Try not to read negative posts or associate with negative thinking people who are not in the same place that you are, as their beliefs can prevent your advancement, if you are not careful.
Further reading on habituation:
https://www.tinnitustalk.com/threads/tinnitus-a-personal-view.18668/
https://www.tinnitustalk.com/threads/hyperacusis-as-i-see-it.19174/
https://www.tinnitustalk.com/threads/answers-to-hyperacusis-and-habituation.12058/
- Feb 17, 2017
- 10,400
- Tinnitus Since
- February, 2017
- Cause of Tinnitus
- Acoustic Trauma
T sounds exactly the same, but the sufferer either doesn't notice it anymore, or is not bothered by it.
If you are implying that you need to use headphones for work in order to earn a living? The answer is quite simple. If a person uses headphones and they find that their tinnitus is becoming worse whilst using them they have two choices. Continue using them and they will eventually reach a point where they will have to stop. Or stop using them the moment they are sure they are making the tinnitus worse.
Look: Tinnitus can be a very debilitating condition when it becomes severe and this level of intensity is sustained. I hope no-one ever has to endure this because it can be a person's worst nightmare. I am not talking about tinnitus that affects a person and they are still able to work. I am referring to tinnitus that can become so severe a person would want to bring about their own demise. I have counselled people in such a state that no longer what to live because of the distress they are going through.
Sorry to sound so sobering.
I wish you well.
Michael
As much as a disagree with Michael about TRT he's for the most part right about two things. Headphones making tinnitus worse, and ear plugs making painful hyperacusis worse. I could draw it exception on half the volume for headphones but it still holds risk.
The hair cells and synapses are already damaged and the vibrations from the headphones are greater and could cause more damage, then the tinnitus gets louder. Then the tinnitus sufferer wants to dolphin dive into a highway.
The hair cells and synapses are already damaged and the vibrations from the headphones are greater and could cause more damage, then the tinnitus gets louder. Then the tinnitus sufferer wants to dolphin dive into a highway.
Re-quoting your post in light of the "habituation" discussion above. I think it is entirely consistent to say that noise canceling headphones do not cause an increase in tinnitus, but that the use of such headphones (or any ambient noise-reducing device, such as earplugs) negatively affect one's ability to habituate to existing tinnitus. Is that a fair statement? I believe if that proposition is correct, then: (1) that may be the source of my present problem (i.e., noise canceling headphones and/or earplugs); and (2) the question I have for myself is the extent to which I can continue to be able to habituate to my relatively mild tinnitus and use my headphones.
MeBeSurfer
Member
- Dec 13, 2017
- 91
- Tinnitus Since
- 10/17
- Cause of Tinnitus
- SSRI Medication, Movie Theaters, or Gaming Headphones
So you would advise a hearing loss patient with T, to not wear hearing aids? That's where the confusion started for me. On one hand, I'm told to wear my in-ear hearing aids, but then also told not to use headphones. In ear hearing aids amplify sounds too.
- Feb 17, 2017
- 10,400
- Tinnitus Since
- February, 2017
- Cause of Tinnitus
- Acoustic Trauma
There are many posts on this site where the poster suspects that their T or their T spike was caused by noise cancelling headphones. I wear earplugs under my Bose noise cancelling headphones...
I am not sure why you think the above. My bedroom is quieter than other places where I spend time during the day. Back when my T was very loud, it was difficult to get to sleep as I could hear T louder than during the rest of the day. One thing I had considered trying was wearing earplugs 24 hours a day. My reasoning was that if one hears T at the same volume for an entire day, it will take less time to habituate, compared to habituation time in the case when one hears it at that loud volume only in the evening.
This was very informative and unfortunately not addressed by anyone claiming headphones are bad. Clearly headphones, hearing aids and even WNGs have similarities . . . but apparently we should ignore that and maintain that only one should be avoided.
- Feb 17, 2017
- 10,400
- Tinnitus Since
- February, 2017
- Cause of Tinnitus
- Acoustic Trauma
When a theory doesn't match the empirical observations, it doesn't mean that the empirical observations ought to be ignored, it means that that theory has to be adjusted.
- May 16, 2017
- 3,754
- Tinnitus Since
- 04/2011
- Cause of Tinnitus
- Syringing + Somatic tinnitus from dental work
@Bill Bauer I'm kind of scared with all the many physical things that I have going on. I always research the negatives of any corporate or industry promoting anything relating to medical or not. What may be OK for one person may not be OK for another. Theory often has to be adjusted from in depth research.
Just one brief limited statement as an example: Loud noise is not good for those with neck tinnitus, but the weight of headphones compressing the neck isn't good either.
Just one brief limited statement as an example: Loud noise is not good for those with neck tinnitus, but the weight of headphones compressing the neck isn't good either.
@John Smythe
I understand the concerns that you may have about using noise cancelling headphones. You also want to continue using them and have peace of mind that they won't make your mild tinnitus worse. My belief and opinions about headphone use for people that have tinnitus, which was originally caused by "loud noise, noise trauma etc" is to not use any type of headphones and this includes noise cancelling headphones, sleephones or bone conduction headphones, as I believe there is a risk of making the tinnitus permanently worse.
Put simply, noise cancelling headphones reduce outside ambient noise so the user can hear music more clearly. I am not technically qualified in this area and those wanting a more detailed explanation please go to Google.
I am an Audiophile and used to listen to music through high quality Beyer Dynamic headphones a lot. I didn't realize I was causing harm to my ears because I listened at too high a volume. I developed severe tinnitus and hyperacusis 22 years ago. I would never use headphones again and now enjoy listening to music through speakers.
You are fortunate that your tinnitus is mild as you've mentioned in your above quote. You have also mentioned that you used headphones in the passed which may, if I understand you correctly caused your tinnitus, although on your profile it says cause unknown. The most common cause of tinnitus is exposure to loud noise. Typically it is using headphones at too high a volume or going to clubs, concerts where sound levels a high. My advice to you is to tread very carefully and think seriously about what you are doing if you continue using "noise cancelling headphones" even at low volume.
As I mentioned in an earlier post on this thread. Recently someone from this forum telephoned me that habituated for 6 years and the tinnitus was low. The tinnitus was originally caused by headphones. This person began using headphones keeping the volume low and within a few days, the tinnitus has returned with a vengeance and will not reduce to it's previous level. This person is now in a lot of distress and unable to go back to work.
I wish you well in whatever you decide to do.
Michael
PS: I have taken the liberty and looked at a few of your previous posts, in which you mentioned the following: My tinnitus at least seems worse since I started using my wireless NC headphones on a regular basis.
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The most important thing to do when battling tinnitus is to try and not focus on it. Easier said than done I know. But if you don't know if you are having a spike or not, then I don't think you are having a spike.
