What About God?

[Michael Leigh]

What is it? I am genuinely curios. I would never insult you.

Bill, you make me smile. You're very good at trying to get people to open up but I'm also good at being tight lipped. I will say though, that I'm not a church goer. It is just my personal belief that we didn't just evolve out of thin air according to what science and Darwin would want us to believe. As I've got older I see things differently. I also laughed when I heard some people say the earth is flat but since moving to Brighton and living by the sea I've questioned this. Now I've really have opened up a can of worms mentioning that one. You won't know if that's my British sense of humour or if I'm serious? As I said and with respect, I don't want get into talking about religion for as you rightly said, I have no proof and I'm certainly not knowledgeable enough to debate this subject in depth. I'm just a lay person with my own belief.

Michael

 

[eldudebro]

It is just my personal belief that we didn't just evolve out of thin air according to what science and Darwin would want us to believe.

Evolutionary theory doesn't say this. Darwin never stated this. You appear to be mixing up evolutionary theory, which explains changes in life over time, with the concept of abiogenesis, which tries to piece together how life got started to begin with.

I also laughed when I heard some people say the earth is flat but since moving to Brighton and living by the sea I've questioned this.

Naaaaaahhhh now I know you are trolling everyone.

You won't know if that's my British sense of humour or if I'm serious?

Good job Michael you almost got me !

 

[Bill Bauer]

I'm also good at being tight lipped.

Ok.

 

[threefirefour]

Evolutionary theory doesn't say this. Darwin never stated this. You appear to me mixing up evolutionary theory, which explains changes in life over time, with the concept of abiogenesis, which tries to piece together how life got started to begin with.



Naaaaaahhhh now I know you are trolling everyone.



Good job Michael you almost got me !

He's nice, but not the smartest person here. He could very well unironically think this

 

[threefirefour]

Bill, you make me smile. You're very good at trying to get people to open up but I'm also good at being tight lipped. I will say though, that I'm not a church goer. It is just my personal belief that we didn't just evolve out of thin air according to what science and Darwin would want us to believe. As I've got older I see things differently. I also laughed when I heard some people say the earth is flat but since moving to Brighton and living by the sea I've questioned this. Now I've really have opened up a can of worms mentioning that one. You won't know if that's my British sense of humour or if I'm serious? As I said and with respect, I don't want get into talking about religion for as you rightly said, I have no proof and I'm certainly not knowledgeable enough to debate this subject in depth. I'm just a lay person with my own belief.

Michael

Alright, You clearly seem to think I'm wrong. If that's the case, then why do you flat say you don't have the knowledge of this, yet go against 99% of the scientific community? Doesn't seem very smart to me.

 

[Michael Leigh]

Alright, You clearly seem to think I'm wrong. If that's the case, then why do you flat say you don't have the knowledge of this, yet go against 99% of the scientific community? Doesn't seem very smart to me.

Science is the mixing of lies with the truth. Next thing you'll be saying is that the moon landings were real...

 

[threefirefour]

Science is the mixing of lies with the truth. Next thing you'll be saying is that the moon landings were real...

Never mind I didn't read the whole conversation. You actually are trolling. You got me so gg.

 

[billie48]

You are showing a profound lack of understanding of the process of evolution. The DNA does not "understand" anything.

After you learn how evolution functions, you might want to look into an artificial intelligence technique called Genetic Programming. This technique can be employed to Evolve complicated computer programs, to Evolve solutions to mathematical problems, and to Evolve engineering solutions (e.g., circuit board design) that are better than solutions to the same problem that had been patented by humans.

I didn't join TT to spend time on debates but to support those who are suffering. So I will try to explain myself here and I won't spend more posts in debating with you or others about science and religion which is a controversial subject. I hope you learn to respect that others can come to a different conclusions based on their experiences and education/training.

I am not someone who didn't understand biology and as ignorant about the subject of evolution as you think. In fact I was a pre-med student who has studied something about DNA, molecular structures of cells, the role of their parts such as RNA or ribonucleic acid, mitochondria, vesicles, ribosomes etc. Is a student of science or scientists in general have to be a believer of Darwinism or the theory of evolution? The scientific method is good but is it always leading to truth? Scientsts had first stated that atom is indivisible. So that was like gospel truth for a long time until it isn't truth anymore. We were told Saturn has only 3 rings or that some planets have so many moons until the space probes prove otherwise. In other words, while scientific method is great, it may only lead to a certain stage of understanding due to our limit of knowledge and equipment. So that stage of understanding is not necessary the TRUTH.

On the theory of evolution by Darwin, perhaps these sites can show that this is not necessary the absolute truth as some may think, and these doubters are credible geniuses of science:

http://www.discovery.org/a/2732

https://blogs.scientificamerican.co...ligious-people-doubt-the-theory-of-evolution/

Do people with superior intelligence in science and technology have to be atheists? Not so. They don't seem to let science and religion be a problem with their faith, as shown in this detail list of famous names from different eras. So don't need to rule out faith if you are in science and technology:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christians_in_science_and_technology

Now to shoot down near-death experiences as purely some hallucinations of the dying brain can't explain many of the experiences of those who had gone through NDE. There are young kids, atheists, doctors, scientists and people of faith in the mix. How do you explain a boy who would meet long dead relatives before the boy's birth? How do you explain the story of this well educated, non-religious (prior to NDE) lady surgeon MD? Her story was actually told in CNN by investigative journalists in the program AC360. What was told in that long interview that is not in the first short video below totally amazed me, that while she was there on the other realm she was told her time wasn't up but that her 18 year old would soon be called home. She came back to life telling this to her husband and they decided to not tell their son about this to frighten him. He would live life as he would enjoy it and unfortunately he was lost subsequently in a tragic accident.


she did talk about her 18-year old son on this video:


The other aspect of the NDE folks is that they feel overwhelming love on the other side that they hate to come back to this world. Their experiences in the realm beyond is so vivid and profound that it changes their outlook towards life. They become much more caring people. I simply can't think this type of NDE is as a result of brain hallucination. No way. Believe what you want. To each its own. I respect people can come to different conclusions, as always the case with humanity. That is the beauty of human existence. I rest my case.

 

[Bobbie7]

I didn't join TT to spend time on debates but to support those who are suffering

To each its own. I respect people can come to different conclusions, as always the case with humanity. That is the beauty of human existence. I rest my case.

Hi @billie48 - That was a mighty powerful post: terrific! I very much enjoyed reading it. I refrain from expressing my religious beliefs or lack thereof since it is controversial and can cause strong emotional reactions which tend to separate people rather than unite. As you so adeptly pointed out, we are here to support each other and not debate such a fervent topic.

Best wishes,
Barbara

 

[Bill Bauer]

The scientific method is good but is it always leading to truth?

It ensures that you don't believe in something that, given all of the latest evidence, is demonstratively wrong.

To quote Richard Feynman
"Scientific knowledge is a body of statements of varying degrees of certainty — some most unsure, some nearly sure, but none absolutely certain."
I didn't say that evolution must be true. I pointed out that it is not as unlikely as you said it is (DNA knowing biology and physics and using that knowledge to design organisms is certainly unlikely; but the process of evolution has been shown to produce incredibly complex structures, and so evolution is a reasonable guess).

I think that whether or not the process of evolution is true is completely irrelevant. If it is proved that evolution has nothing to do with the origin of species, I will stop believing in evolution, but I will NOT start believing in competitive explanations that still don't have any compelling evidence to support them, and that fail Occam's razor.

They don't seem to let science and religion be a problem with their faith, as shown in this detail list of famous names from different eras.

One problem is that children are being indoctrinated. Evidently, for some people the consequences can last a lifetime. In a sane world it would be a crime to try to recruit children into cults or religions. I guess those scientists abandon the scientific method when they choose to have faith.

How do you explain a boy who would meet long dead relatives before the boy's birth? How do you explain the story of this well educated, non-religious (prior to NDE) lady surgeon MD? Her story was actually told in CNN by investigative journalists in the program AC360. What was told in that long interview that is not in the first short video below totally amazed me, that while she was there on the other realm she was told her time wasn't up but that her 18 year old would soon be called home. She came back to life telling this to her husband and they decided to not tell their son about this to frighten him. He would live life as he would enjoy it and unfortunately he was lost subsequently in a tragic accident.

People have an incentive to make up those stories. But this can still have a rational explanation, even if those people were telling the truth. Over the past 50 years, thousands (hundreds of thousands?) of people have had near death experiences. Many of them had hallucinations that involved predictions. We would expect that a tiny fraction of those predictions would actually end up being true, by chance alone. This is what the statisticians call "censored data" - you hear about the handful of people whose predictions came true, but you don't hear about the hundreds of thousands whose predictions didn't come true.

I simply can't think this type of NDE is as a result of brain hallucination.

I have never taken any drugs. But I heard Joe Rogan mentioned "spiritual experiences" as a result of taking the drug DMT. Check out
http://www.collective-evolution.com...known-to-man-your-brain-produces-it-everyday/

"For most, there are no words accurate enough to describe what happens when you experience the hyper-space reality of a DMT trip. It's called the "Spirit Molecule" by many of our greatest thinkers, an oxymoron when really considered. This is because DMT is said by many to be the portal to what we know as the 'afterlife', a realm built of light fractals and sacred geometry, where time and 3D space merge, and where we are brought into contact with 'them'."
"During Dr. Rick Strassman's infamous human-DMT studies in the 1990s, about half of all participants reported making contact with strange entities or beings. Some people described them as "helpers", "guides", or "aliens", Terrence McKenna coined them as "machine elves". Nevertheless, however the participants described these beings, there was a commonality among their experiences. These beings had been 'waiting' for the participants, with much to show them in a limited amount of time."
"Strassman said he immediately flocked to the biological explanation, that the brain was firing up some sort of wakeful dream experience. Yet, the participants refused to accept his conjecture."

They might have refused to accept that conjecture, but knowing that a drug can replicate what people feel during NDE, makes me more inclined to believe his conjecture.
DMA is not the only drug that can have that impact on the brain:
http://extraordinaryintelligence.com/psychedelic-drugs-hallucinations-or-hightened-consciousness/

 

[Vincent R]

Scientific explanations for all of those experiences have been available for a long time now.

I'll address this shortly.

Near-death experiences and out-of-body experiences don't prove the existence of a spiritual sphere. Compelling witness accounts, for example where a person look down at his own body and describe in detail how doctors try to make his heart beat again, can be frauds. Writing books about the afterlife is big business, and cons have been exposed one time after the other. Unless "supernatural" incidents are duplicated in labs, and curiously enough such attempts haven't worked out very well, we're left without evidence.

But saying that there are scientific explanations for NDE's available is a bit of a stretch. NDE's are activated by certain chemical reactions in the brain, that can be fully imitated by the synthesized drug Ketamine (originally used as a pain killer in surgery, I think).

But finding the biological trigger doesn't mean that we can determine weather what is being experienced are brain ghosts or something that exists independently of our physical bodies*. I'll quote the psychiatrist Stanislav Grof:

"If you have a full-blown experience of ketamine [sic!], you can never believe there is death or that death can possibly influence who you are."
​

For the record, I've never used psychoactive drugs and don't promote it either. I do drink a lof of coffee, though.

*It doesn't fall upon the shoulders of the sceptis to prove metaphysics, of course. It has to be the other way around; it's the believers who must cough up evidence. But there is empirical data in the sense that people do experience miraculous sensations, and we're yet to understand how they originate.

 

[Bill Bauer]

But finding the biological trigger doesn't mean that we can determine weather what is being experienced are brain ghosts or something that exists independently of our physical bodies

At that point, we can use Occam's razor to conclude that it is most likely vivid hallucinations one experiences when a certain region of the brain is stimulated in a certain way.

 

[Sonic17]

Hmmm, interesting posts about faith and science. I am not really sure why a person cannot have both? The scientific method has been so helpful to mankind, but sometimes when life throws us challenges that have no scientific explanation, what choice do we have but to turn to our faith?
I often think there is such a misunderstanding in communication about these subjects, and that is where the arguments start. If science is being used to improve mankind (ie research into curing diseases) then isn't science being used in a Godly manner? My understanding of God is doing things that are good for one another (a little oversimplified). So if a scientist uses his research to improve mankind, to some of us he can be viewed as acting in a Godly manner.
It is not so much what is done, but the intention behind the action.
Am I off topic? Maybe I missed the boat here completely....lol

 

[Vincent R]

At that point, we can use Occam's razor to conclude that it is most likely vivid hallucinations one experiences when a certain region of the brain is stimulated in a certain way.

Yes, we could do that. Dreams, a phenomena that falls under the distinction of hallucinations, show that the brain indeed can create internal imagery. I still harbor some lingering doubts, though. Spiritual experiences of the more dramatic kind appears to be coherent, elaborate, and purposeful in the extreme. More so than anything else, even. If it's just automatically reacting ions and molecules, coincidentally organized by the blind power of evolution, I have to say they're quite the overachievers.

I'm not trying to convince you. I just clarify how spiritually inclined people are wired.

 

[Bill Bauer]

Spiritual experiences of the more dramatic kind appears to be coherent, elaborate, and purposeful in the extreme.

But what about the spiritual experiences of people who take DMT? They seem to also be coherent, elaborate and purposeful.

I just clarify how spiritually inclined people are wired.

I understand that, and I am thankful for it.

 

[Bobbie7]

hmm.... I'm just pondering something here....

wondering..... if @Bill Bauer avatar and @Vincent R avatar mated, what would their offspring look like????

 

[Bill Bauer]

hmm.... I'm just pondering something here....

wondering..... if @Bill Bauer avatar and @Vincent R avatar mated, what would their offspring look like????

If the offspring keeps its mouth shut, it would just be my avatar with green eyes.

 

[Bill Bauer]

I am not really sure why a person cannot have both? The scientific method has been so helpful to mankind, but sometimes when life throws us challenges that have no scientific explanation, what choice do we have but to turn to our faith?

We could take comfort in the belief that when we die, we will feel the same way we had been feeling in the time interval between the Big Bang and our birth (i.e., feel nothing). We can also hope that our luck will change for the better.

I apologize if my posts make the experience of T harder for anyone. I think that it is important to never deceive oneself, even when it might be comforting to do so. However, I might be wrong about that.

It is not so much what is done, but the intention behind the action.

Make sense.

 

[Vincent R]

But what about the spiritual experiences of people who take DMT? They seem to also be coherent, elaborate and purposeful.

When it comes to NDE, we have a lot of accounts describing how the experience go down. Among the core characteristics are a (perceived) sensation of eternity and the self's indifference to death, a (perceived) transfer into a 3D-sphere, (perceived) meetings with people who used to live, and in some cases even a (perceived) meeting with a God-like being.

Since scientists can duplicate the process by injecting Ketamine, I think it's okay to say the coherency has been verified. I rely much on the assessments of the psychiatric Karl B Jansen who combines scientific knowledge and the open mind of a mystic. And of course the circumstance that I've had a (perceived) sensation of eternity and the self's indifference to death myself.

We have a scientifically pinpointed bio-trigger, we have a distinct set of sensations, we have a repeatable phenomena.

So we can start to ask ourselves how such wonders of the human mind can be possible.

I've read The Spirite Molecule by Richard Strassman, and what he describes seems completely buggfuck to me. I'm not about to believe in his "machine elves", even as a product of a hallucinating brain, until I meet them myself, or unless I hear it from long line of people who appear perfectly level-headed and don't have any economic motives.

 

[Bill Bauer]

Since scientists can duplicate the process by injecting Ketamine, I think it's okay to say the coherency has been verified. I rely much on the assessments of the psychiatric Karl B Jansen who combines scientific knowledge and the open mind of a mystic. And of course the circumstance that I've had a (perceived) sensation of eternity and the self's indifference to death myself.

Are you saying that taking ketamine can allow one to actually see dead people, because the alternative explanation (i.e., that it is a hallucination) is unlikely?

 

[Vincent R]

Are you saying that taking ketamine can allow one to actually see dead people, because the alternative explanation (i.e., that it is a hallucination) is unlikely?

Spiritual experiences are so elaborate that they cannot be written of as dogmatic beliefs or a malfunctioning of the cognitive apparatus. They're more like a design. In the case of NDE, we even have the luxury to say that conclusively. But why would the brain be equipped with a gadget that fakes meetings with the dead if a certain drug threshold is being hit? What evolutionary purpose does it serve?

And even more confusing: The main work of the neurons is to have ions running back and forth along their cell membranes. How do you bridge the explanatory gap between this simplistic phenomena and an individual sensing waves of emotional support from the spirits of the dead? Hell, you can't even bridge the gap to how a being can be aware about how a cup of coffee tastes.

I believe the wonders of the mind cannot convincingly be attributed to those busy ions, and that a metaphysical layer is a more credible option. But I can't say weather people who take Ketamine, and have full-blown trips, actually meet dead people for real. I'm not comfortable going that far in my speculations.

 

[Sonic17]

I apologize if my posts make the experience of T harder for anyone. I think that it is important to never deceive oneself, even when it might be comforting to do so. However, I might be wrong about that.

I admire your strength at looking at the truth….however some of us have to be a little delusional to cope.

 

[Sonic17]

The mind is still a mystery to us. When I was grieving a family member in my early 20's I had spiritual dreams. Call it "visits from the spirit world" or my minds way of coping with the loss. Anyways, they were beautiful dreams and nothing to fear, brought me great peace and comfort. I was only 21 a the time and never took drugs or drank alcohol…..no ketamine or any of these other drugs mentioned!

Perhaps Tinnitus is a condition of the mind?

 

[PaulBe]

Perhaps Tinnitus is a condition of the mind?

Ear or brain yes. The reaction to it belongs to the realm of the mind.

 

[Bobbie7]

I would like to share two very strange and perplexing experiences which I had shortly after my beloved mother (whom I mentioned in a couple of past posts) passed away. We were extremely close, shared a very strong bond and she gave me support throughout many difficult times in my life when it was most needed.

I don't recall exactly how long it was... perhaps a few weeks after she died... I was at home alone, sitting in the livingroom - not thinking of anything particular when .... all of a sudden, the room filled with her personal scent and I just could not believe it. I sat there almost frozen in a daze trying to make sense of this occurrence which had never happened before. The entire room was pervasive with her personal scent which was that of sweet corn. Each of us have a scent, of course, and this was distinctly hers and I instantly knew it was amazed. Well... it only lasted a few brief minutes and then it was gone. I had nothing cooking at that time nor was there any hint of a scent only minutes prior. Very odd and I only wish I had some explanation. I was not under the influence of any sort of drug nor had I any wine; it was the afternoon, clear and bright.

Shortly after I had another similar experience: It was during the day and I had just arrived home after doing some grocery shopping and was in the vestibule of the apartment building in which I live, opened the door and entered the hallway. Again...to my astonishment, what pervaded the entire hall was my mother's personal scent. There was no one else there at the time and the scent was unmistakably my mother's. Odd that both my experiences should have happened shortly after my mother's passing and then never occurred again. I am a rational person and know I did not imagine this twice as my thoughts were not focused on my mother on those occasions.

While this is neither a spiritual dream nor a near-death-experience it is, nevertheless, very strange and at times I still do wonder about it.

I would be interested to know if anyone else ever experienced something similar.

Wishing all who read this a pleasant and peaceful day/evening.

Barbara

 

[Sonic17]

I admire your strength at looking at the truth….however some of us have to be a little delusional to cope.

@Bill Bauer that compliment about being strong was intended for you Bill

 

[Sonic17]

@Bobbie7
Thank you for sharing your experiences with us. What I experienced was different from yours, but I will share some of it with those interested in reading this.
After my mother passed of a brain tumour in 1990 I had many visual dreams that brought me surprising comfort and peace. They were different from regular dreams..... more vivid and left me with such a calmness and inner peace I cannot explain. One of the dreams that stands out for me was that of me and my mother sitting in a dimly lit room, there were candles lit giving off a glow. I could see myself sitting across from her, like I was outside of myself, and I was looking at her from the backside, she had the white dressing around her head like she did after her brain surgery and was wearing a white garment, her eyes were open but her faced looked expressionless. I felt the love between us but we did not speak in words, we spoke in images shared between us. I was asking for forgiveness for my sins that I did as a child growing up, images of the situation would appear between us, then the next image would appear. She understood the images without either of us speaking. It sounds creepy as I write this, but at the time it did not feel creepy, just peaceful and loving. When I woke up I had such a sense of inner peace.
Not sure if anyone is reading this anymore, it has nothing to do with tinnitus, only the belief that there may be a spiritual world that we will never fully understand.
After having dreams of my mother who had passed I thought perhaps the Lord was calling me to join him in a life of worship.....perhaps to begin a new life as a nun. I never followed this calling.....but I think I may have enjoyed it

 

[Bill Bauer]

When I woke up I had such a sense of inner peace.

Interesting.

I was 20 when my dad succumbed to brain cancer. I also had several dreams that involved him during the months following his death. The only thing odd about those dreams was that he was completely silent in all of them. (This seems interesting, given that your mom also didn't speak during your dreams.) Otherwise, nothing unremarkable happened in those dreams - the dreams were about stuff like getting a flat tire, etc. LOL I wish, for once, to be the one with spiritual/non-mundane dreams, but I guess it is not to be.

 

[fishbone]

All of us believe in different things, I am not in the position to knock anyone's faith. If you believe in God great, if not that's ok too. Having a long heated debate at the end of the day, does nothing for your tinnitus. Getting all worked up on this subject, does nothing good for your tinnitus..

 

[billie48]

I too had many vivid dreams of my boy after he passed. It happened so often that I kind of complained why I couldn't actually feel my boy's presence while I was awake. One day I was watching TV in the family room, with my wife and my 3 girls in the kitchen talking to each other. Then suddenly I fell into a state of awareness that I have never felt before. I wasn't sleeping nor I was fully awake. I felt like I was in a trance and all of a sudden I felt being kissed all over my face. I couldn't shake it off. The sensation was real and I knew I wasn't dreaming because as this was happening I could still hear my wife and the girls talking in the kitchen. The only child who would kiss me all over the face like that as if making fun of the hug and kiss was my son. He was a jolly and mischievous child who liked to play like that when I said give me a kiss on the face and he would do many kisses on my cheek and face. So I knew I was being kissed by an unseen presence of my son. I was into tears knowing that he would do such to help me cope with the sadness of losing him. There are more of such spiritual experiences that are just too sacred and personal to talk about in such public forum. I am not trying to convince anyone of the reality of the spirit. It is just an extraordinary event that I would never forget and no way I can find an explanation for that.