What's the Real Difference Between Using Headphones and a Telephone?

[Arseny]

There's a stigma against using headphones on this forum, however I doubt that most of the people refrain from using telephones.

What's the real difference between putting a speaker to your ear or using a over-the-head headphones?

I know people recommend to stay away from headphones altogether, because it's very easy to set the volume too high, but realistically there isn't that much difference...

I don't get spikes from talking on the phone, but fridge or even a few people talking at the same time give me a significant spike for an hour or so.
And I have to talk for several hours a day due to work. Realistically the volume is too low to cause any damage.

And what about people who use wearable maskers or hearing aids? Do they damage their hearing too?

While it's reasonable to exercise caution, but for the most of people with tinnitus headphones will never cause any problems at volumes 40 dB or less. Otherwise you wouldn't be able to use your phones or talk to people in general...

There's too much fearmongering on this website.

 

[OnceUponaTime]

I use speakerphone.

Maybe @Michael Leigh can answer your question better than me.

There's too much fearmongering on this website.

But there's a lot of hope, information, love and support.

Once

 

[Bill Bauer]

What's the real difference between putting a speaker to your ear or using a over-the-head headphones?

Thank you for pointing this out. It looks like there is not much of a difference. With this in mind, I will try to limit the time I spend talking on the phone. I will also try to keep the phone as far from my ear as I can, while still being able to hear the other person.

 

[GregCA]

There's a stigma against using headphones on this forum, however I doubt that most of the people refrain from using telephones.

What's the real difference between putting a speaker to your ear or using a over-the-head headphones?

I don't think there is much difference between all of these sound sources. At the end of the day, what matters, is the sound wave that hits your ear drum. Ask any doctor, or any person who knows a bit about sound physics. I did.

 

[Tinniger]

There's a stigma against using headphones

No, - that's just a specific obsession of Michael Leigh. Michael has made many very good and valuable contributions here and is a highly valued member of the community. But when it comes to headphones, he thinks that they are harmful even at low volumes. If the same low volume is applied via hearing aids, he does not consider them harmful.
I am sure and convinced that the use of headphones that are too loud is an enormously important aspect in the development of hearing impairment. And therefore also for the development of tinnitus caused by hearing damage.

In my opinion, a normal telephone is not too loud to worsen a tinnitus.

 

[Jack Straw]

I have thought about this as well.

A lot of people refuse to use headphones because they feel it can cause further hearing damage, but in the Neuromod Q&A there was no mention of complications or issues even when asked directly about it headphone use. I wonder if those people will not use the neuromod device since it requires your to listen to sounds through headphones for an hour a day.

I am not sure where this idea started, but there is no current scientific backing behind this idea. Loud music is obviously dangerous, but I don't know of any scientific research to show that low volume headphone use causes damage.

 

[Bill Bauer]

I wonder if those people will not use the neuromod device since it requires your to listen to sounds through headphones for an hour a day.

It will depend on the fraction of the users that end up being worse as a result of using the device.

 

[Michael Leigh]

I use speakerphone.

Maybe @Michael Leigh can answer your question better than me.

@OnceUponaTime

Thank you for the PM alert.

I have explained more than once in this forum the difference between using a landline telephone, white noise generators and headphones. Anyone that has "noise induced" tinnitus risks making their tinnitus worse using headphones even at low volume.

The person you have been corresponding with, has been disrespectful towards me on more than one occasion, when I was offering help and support to him, based on my years of experience with tinnitus. He thinks he knows everything about it within the short time he's had the condition. With this sort of arrogance he will undoubtedly learn the hard way, that "noise induced" tinnitus can be ruthless and very unforgiving to those that take it lightly and do not respect it.

My advice to you is to carry on and don't use headphones even at low volume. If possible don't use a headset either.
All the best

Michael

 

[Digital Doc]

I agree that there is not much difference between using headphones and the telephone, other than headphones are for both ears, while a phone is for one ear. Also, folks often listen to headphones for hours with the volume cranked up, while telephone calls are often shorter and lower volume.

Also, realize that many folks use the earbuds that come with their phone, and not traditional headphones.

https://www.medicaldaily.com/earbud...-will-cause-noise-induced-hearing-loss-366088

This was published in Medical Daily:

To preserve your hearing, doctors recommend headphones, which sit on your head like earmuffs, rather than earbuds, which fit inside your ear. The main reason is earbuds naturally add about 9 dB of volume because they are closer to the ear canal. Add to that, earbuds do not block out as much background noise, so most of us will crank up the volume to unsafe levels. Plus, there are many cheap earbuds on the market which may be great in a pinch, but these poorly made products will distort sound or produce uneven levels of sound and this leads most of us, once again, to increasing the volume to harmful levels.

I do not personally use headphones or earbuds, and I did not use them before T as I simply did not have any use to listen that way. However, talking on the phone, particularly with incessant beep for an incoming call has made my T temporarily worse on more than one occasion, no matter how low I cranked down the volume, and held the speaker away from my ear.

Overall, the best we can say about headphones and T is YMMV, but for those having T issues, it is a safer bet to stay away from them as there are generally other options, such as an external speaker.

 

[Michael Leigh]

there is no current scientific backing behind this idea

I am tired to explain to the people in this forum, that you mustn't look to science for advice about tinnitus as the answers are not there. Listen to people that have experience with tinnitus and then make up your own mind. My advice to you is to be careful, of listening to people that have no experience of tinnitus or do not have "noise induced" tinnitus because they know nothing about the risks of using headphones.

Doctors are physicians not tinnitus experts. It is the people that live with tinnitus, particularly "noise induced" tinnitus that know the harmful effects of using headphones even at low volume. It is true, some people with NIT use headphones without any problems. However, as a lot of people have found in this forum with NIT and use headphones, the tinnitus only needs to spike once and it will usually increase to a new and permanent level!

Michael

 

[Jack Straw]

I am tired to explain to the people in this forum, that you mustn't look to science for advice about tinnitus as the answers are not there. Listen to people that have experience with tinnitus and then make up your own mind. My advice to you is to be careful, of listening to people that have no experience of tinnitus or do not have "noise induced" tinnitus because they know nothing about the risks of using headphones.

Doctors are physicians not tinnitus experts. It is the people that live with tinnitus, particularly "noise induced" tinnitus that know the harmful effects of using headphones even at low volume. It is true, some people with NIT use headphones without any problems. However, as a lot of people have found in this forum with NIT and use headphones, the tinnitus only needs to spike once and it will usually increase to a new and permanent level!

Michael

Hi @Michael Leigh,

I hope you are doing well!

The reason I have changed my stance on this recently is because of the Neuromod Q&A. The questions was asked regarding the use of headphone on tinnitus patients being dangerous. They responded saying that there was no issue with people with tinnitus using headphones. They said they keep the volume low on their devices and there wasn't an issue.

This reminded me that Susan Shore also uses headphones as well for her treatment. It wouldn't make sense that the coming treatment for tinnitus would include something that would also be making it worse. I also trust that these researchers on the cutting edge of tinnitus would know whether or not it would be an issue from their own research and experiences from their testing subjects. I read an article that in ear headphones are dangerous because they increase the Sound by 9 dB because they are right against the ear drum. Over ear headphones doesn't have the boost in dB and are safer in that sense.

I guess we will wait and see what happens when the devices comes out and people use the headphones for the treatment. That will definitely help point us to the right answer regarding this dilemma.

I say all this with much respect. I understand that our views are very different on this matter and I respect if you disagree. I just wanted to share my point of view as well in case anyone comes across this thread in the future.

 

[Bill Bauer]

I have explained more than once in this forum the difference between using a landline telephone, white noise generators and headphones.

Could you please provide links to those explanations, or give a brief summary of those differences? Otherwise, most people who will read this thread will be left with an impression that there is no difference. Personally, I can't think of what could possibly be different.

 

[Karel]

I know for a fact that talking on the phone can make T permanently worse, because that happened to me a few years ago. It wasn't a regular call though, it lasted several hours with only a few short breaks, and I also have H which probably has something to do with it too. (I did keep the phone volume at the lowest setting where I could still hear the other person, so it wasn't a case of excessive noise.)
So maybe for most people (especially those with just T) normal twenty minute phonecalls won't be a problem, but I'm just saying, it's certainly not guaranteed to always be safe for us. Unfortunately.

 

[gorzakus]

I measured the output of the Koss headphones I am using to listen to the tinnitusmix file with a calibrated dB meter and it's around 58 Db.
I also measured the output of the speaker on my phone and on the loudest volume it was 98 dB.
I read on another forum that the sound coming from headphones has to do with the energy.
Quote from head-fi.org :
"Yes, but headphones typically have more treble energy, the high frequency cells are at the base of the cochlea, and damaged easier because of it. "

 

[Michael Leigh]

Could you please provide links to those explanations, or give a brief summary of those differences? Otherwise, most people who will read this thread will be left with an impression that there is no difference. Personally, I can't think of what could possibly be different.

I agree with you.

However, I will not be explaining these differences, for I have done so many times and I'm tired of going over the same thing and people wanting to challenge, my beliefs and me having to defend them on this particular issue. I have corresponded with many people over the years and also counselled them by email and telephone, in distress because headphones made their tinnitus worse, when previously they were able to manage it. It is up to the individual to do what they think is best for them.

I advise people to go to my "started threads" and read my posts on headphone use and tinnitus. There is also information on white noise generators which are quite different from headphones. Again, I have explained this many times.

@another sean explained the risks of headphone use in a recent post and thought he summed it up very well. It is all to do with "sound pressure" within the ear canal. There is nowhere for the sound to escape so it's directly aimed at the eardrum. In my article: Tinnitus, A Personal view, I explain the ear canal is only 26mm long a very short distance.

Michael

 

[Michael Leigh]

I hope you are doing well!

The reason I have changed my stance on this recently is because of the Neuromod Q&A. The questions was asked regarding the use of headphone on tinnitus patients being dangerous. They responded saying that there was no issue with people with Tinnitus using headphones. They said they keep the volume low on their devices and there wasn't an issue.

HI @Jack Straw

Thank you for your question and for being respectful which is appreciated.

I have briefly looked at Neuromod and aware headphones are used to administer its treatment. It would be wrong for me to say using this treatment will be dangerous because I do not know what type of audio is being played directly into the ear? I want to make a few things clear about headphone use and tinnitus which some people may not fully understand what I mean.

Anyone that has "noise induced" tinnitus or tinnitus caused by "noise trauma" risks making it worse when playing audio, and I am referring to "music" due to syncopation within the audio frequency; I have explained this many times in my posts. Perhaps Neuromod does not play music directly into the ear via headphones? It may be a set of tones played at a low level? Therefore this may not cause irritation to the tinnitus or hyperacusis.

My opinion on the dangers of using headphones are for those people who's tinnitus was caused by "loud noise". People that have tinnitus caused by an underlying medical problem, within the auditory system or elsewhere in the body, are not so much at risk of making their tinnitus worse using headphones. I still advise caution using them.

I wish you well
Michael

 

[gorzakus]

HI @Jack Straw

Thank you for your question and for being respectful which is appreciated.

I have briefly looked at Neuromod and aware headphones are used to administer its treatment. It would be wrong for me to say using this treatment will be dangerous because I do not know what type of audio is being played directly into the ear? I want to make a few things clear about headphone use and tinnitus which some people may not fully understand what I mean.

Anyone that has "noise induced" tinnitus or tinnitus caused by "noise trauma" risks making it worse when playing audio, and I am referring to "music" due to syncopation within the audio frequency; I have explained this many times in my posts. Perhaps Neuromod does not play music directly into the ear via headphones? It may be a set of tones played at a low level? Therefore this may not cause irritation to the tinnitus or hyperacusis.

My opinion on the dangers of using headphones are for those people who's tinnitus was caused by "loud noise". People that have tinnitus caused by an underlying medical problem, within the auditory system or elsewhere in the body, are not so much at risk of making their tinnitus worse using headphones. I still advise caution using them.

I wish you well
Michael

Hi @Michael Leigh ,
So if it depends on the audio, is it therefore I have no trouble listening to the sounds of the tinnitusmix?
Since having tinnitus one year ago, I stopped listening with headphones to music after reading your posts on this forum.
since two weeks I am listening to a sound file called tinnitusmix, I will post the link.
It contains a variety of tones one should listen to at night for three weeks with Koss on the ear headphones. To my surprise its really helping me with my tinnitus.
I play the file on really low volume ( output is between 50 and 58 Db).
The inventor claims he never had one complaint about people getting their tinnitus worse listening to it.
I have no desire to ever listen to music again with headphones but will want to try things like Neuromod if it can make things more bearable despite the headphones.
https://www.tinnitustalk.com/threads/i-invented-a-sound-that-knocked-out-my-tinnitus.33001/

 

[Jack Straw]

@another sean,
what about open back headphones? These allow allow sound to escape and enter. This would get rid of "sound trapping" right?

 

[Michael Leigh]

HI @Jack Straw

I did not get a PM alert and by chance have seen your post.
We are all different so any advice that I give is for guidance only. If you benefit playing the Tinnitus Mix through headphones then I suggest you continue using it and wish you every success.

what about open back headphones? These allow allow sound to escape and enter. This would get rid of "sound trapping" right?

HI @Jack Straw

I have known people with NIT to listen to low level music through open back headphones, Noise cancelling headphones, conduction headphones and all have regretted it because their tinnitus increased and will not reduce to its previous manageable level. As I have previously mentioned: some people with NIT use headphones and are not affected. However, the risk of making the tinnitus worse is always there.

Shortly before Christmas last year, a member of this forum contacted me saying she had habituated for 6 years and her tinnitus was quite manageable. She decided to return to using headphones keeping the volume low. Within 1 week, the tinnitus increased and she was pouring out her heart as she cannot return to work because of loud tinnitus which is causing her immense distress.

I have spoken with many people on the telephone that regretted returning to using headphones, as the tinnitus increased and will not reduce to its previous manageable level. Some of these people have become very emotional. For the life of me I cannot understand why anyone with "noise induced" tinnitus would want to put themselves at risk, knowing what this awful condition can do to a person's mental and emotional wellbeing when it becomes loud and intrusive.

Michael

 

[OnceUponaTime]

The person you have been corresponding with, has been disrespectful towards me on more than one occasion, when I was offering help and support to him, based on my years of experience with tinnitus. He thinks he knows everything about it within the short time he's had the condition. With this sort of arrogance he will undoubtedly learn the hard way, that "noise induced" tinnitus can be ruthless and very unforgiving to those that take it lightly and do not respect it.

So sorry, I didnt know.

Anyone that has "noise induced" tinnitus risks making their tinnitus worse using headphones even at low volume.

I agree.

Once

 

[SugarMagnolia]

There's a stigma against using headphones on this forum, however I doubt that most of the people refrain from using telephones.

I have never put a telephone to my ear since the onset of my tinnitus - which was caused by a telephone.
I only ever use speakerphone.

 

[SugarMagnolia]

In my opinion, a normal telephone is not too loud to worsen a tinnitus.

It depends on what sound comes out of that telephone.

 

[GregCA]

This was published in Medical Daily:

To preserve your hearing, doctors recommend headphones, which sit on your head like earmuffs, rather than earbuds, which fit inside your ear. The main reason is earbuds naturally add about 9 dB of volume because they are closer to the ear canal.

This does not make sense to me. When you use headphones or any other listening device, you set it so the volume to your ear is comfortable.
You don't go off and set the volume on device 1 (say speakers), and then switch devices to say device 2 (ear buds) and keep the volume as is: you re-adjust the volume so your ears get the amount of energy that you want.
Any variation in volume due to hardware or its distance to the ear drum is compensated by the user in the way of a volume adjustment.

Add to that, earbuds do not block out as much background noise, so most of us will crank up the volume to unsafe levels.

I doubt that this is true: many people use earbuds specifically because of the isolation properties they offer. The professional versions of earbuds that musicians use are called In-Ear-Monitors and are generally molded to the ear canal specifically to shut out external noise. The nice side effect of shutting down external noise is that you don't need to crank the volume up to listen to the content that you really care about. The same is true for noise cancelling headphones, which is why they can be a great listening device for those who want to be able to listen to content a low volume.

Plus, there are many cheap earbuds on the market which may be great in a pinch, but these poorly made products will distort sound or produce uneven levels of sound and this leads most of us, once again, to increasing the volume to harmful levels.

This is true but it's irrelevant: cheap products on the market exist whether they are ear buds, headphones, speakers, hearing aids, or any other listening device. This statement isn't specific to ear buds, so singling it out to make a point seems rather illogical.

what about open back headphones? These allow allow sound to escape and enter. This would get rid of "sound trapping" right?

I think sound trapping is mainly an issue in case of accidents. Not that it is not important to think about accidents, but in normal use, you are supposed to adjust the volume so you feel comfortable.

It's a bit strange to use the word "trapped": physically speaking, sound is absorbed or reflected.

The volume you adjust takes into account those reflections & absorptions, since your adjustment is directly linked to what you perceive from your ear, which is also a direct link with the sound waves hitting your ear drum (passing through the ossicles, then cochlea, etc).

 

[SugarMagnolia]

I wonder if those people will not use the neuromod device since it requires your to listen to sounds through headphones for an hour a day.

If it requires headphone use then no, I will not do it.

 

[Bill Bauer]

It wasn't a regular call though, it lasted several hours with only a few short breaks

It looks like this gives us a clue about how to solve this paradox. Phone calls are usually shorter than the time one spends listening to music.

For the life of me I cannot understand why anyone with "noise induced" tinnitus would want to put themselves at risk, knowing what this awful condition can do to a person's mental and emotional wellbeing when it becomes loud and intrusive.

I know...

 

[Michael Leigh]

I know...

I have listened to people on the telephone crying their eyes out regretting they have returned to using headphones and there is absolutely nothing I can do, apart from being a listening ear and offer some words of comfort!

Michael

 

[Michael Leigh]

If it requires headphone use then no, I will not do it.

That is the smart thing to do. I believe Neuromond is the same or very similar to what the Tinnitus clinic, in London practices, which is Neuromodulation. Very expensive and there's no guarantee that it will work - the same applies to TRT although most people have some success with TRT.

I have corresponded with two people that have tried Neuromodulation at the tinnitus clinic; both have noise induced tinnitus and the treatment did not work. At the time approximately 3 years ago the treatment cost over £4000.

Michael

 

[linearb]

I don't think there is much difference between all of these sound sources. At the end of the day, what matters, is the sound wave that hits your ear drum. Ask any doctor, or any person who knows a bit about sound physics. I did.

Yea exactly and that's why I have continued to use headphones for decades without any problems.

The volume and nature of the sound as it hits the drum are what matters, doesn't matter if the wave originates 2" from your ear or 200'. The one exception to this is completely occlusive earbuds which are probably a bit more dangerous because they give the sound nowhere to escape. I use a combination of closed and open backed over the ear cans, and I use a sleepphones band under my helmet when I ski.

 

[Michael Leigh]

Yea exactly and that's why I have continued to use headphones for decades without any problems.

As I have said @linearb some people with tinnitus use headphones without any adverse effects. I do not know if your tinnitus was originally caused by exposure to loud noise and would be interested to know? Whilst you may think headphone use doesn't affect you which is good. I wonder if you've thought using headphones could be one of the reasons you need to be taking clonazepam so often? I only take clonazepam once a month now if that.

All the best
Michael

 

[linearb]

I do not know if your tinnitus was originally caused by exposure to loud noise and would be interested to know?

Unsure but a noise trauma was what made it bad in 2010.

I wonder if you've thought using headphones could be one of the reasons you need to be taking clonazepam so often?

I avoided headphones, noise, benzos and nearly all other drugs, etc for a period of years and saw no improvement in my tinnitus. My benzo history is long and complicated and predates my significant issues with tinnitus by a lot, and I think there's some possibility that early use of benzos basically wired my brain to need them to function, in a way that did not unwire itself despite years of abstinence, Flumazenil, specialists, etc.

22 dB of acoustic pressure at 10000hz at your eardrum, has the same metabolic impact, whether it was delivered by a headphone, an earbud, or a faraway loud speaker. There are good reasons to be concerned about headphone use because they can certainly make it easy to overdose on noise, but if you use them in a way that exposes you to the same sound levels you'd get from a speaker system, then there's no magic mechanism by which headphones become more damaging.