Why Do Some People Hate Bill Bauer?

[Flamingo1]

Would you say that the music at a mall is harmless? If the answer is Yes, then would you like me to give you a link to what happened to Lex as a result of being exposed to music at a mall for 30 seconds? Does this mean that you need to update what you consider to be harmless?

Oh no! Does this mean we can't go shopping either?!

 

[Bill Bauer]

Oh no! Does this mean we can't go shopping either?!

We could do it, provided both of us wear matching Peltor X5A earmuffs!

[Edit: Sorry - I misread your post. I thought it said "... go shopping Together".

The font size on my screen is set to Huge, but I still can't see it clearly.]

 

[Flamingo1]

We could do it, provided both of us wear matching Peltor X5A earmuffs!

[Edit: Sorry - I misread your post. I thought it said "... go shopping Together".

The font size on my screen is set to Huge, but I still can't see it clearly.]

Sounds more like a Freudian slip to me.. So @Bill Bauer DOES like people
I honestly think you mean well by warning others of the dangers of noise. You devote an extraordinary amount of time responding to posts and are a notable contributor to TT. This is much appreciated. I don't think that scaring newcomers, many of whom are just young kids, however is the best thing for their mental health. When I first realized I had tinnitus, I was devastated and pondered suicide, thinking that is my only way out. I slowly grew to accept my condition which I was only able to do by making sure that I still did the things I wanted to do (under 85dB) and with ear plugs on hand... always. If I had read your posts when I first got T, I would not have wanted to go on living. Perhaps you could be a little more gentle in your approach is my only comment. And shopping malls?? Please!

 

[Gman]

I don't hate anyone, but I noticed in the forum that Bill Bauer considers noise to be particularly harmful.
I am worried that this will drive many tinnitus sufferers into overprotection. No one has ever recovered from the people who walk around outside the apartment with airport hearing protectors.
It seems to me that noise is the only cause of tinnitus for Bill Bauer. For me this point of view is too one-dimensional....

Noise can be harmful. As has been said countless times, our ears are compromised. Please explain to me why I have had multiple horrible incidences that have caused temporary conductive hearing loss, along with bad tension inside my ears, around my head plus other symptoms with certain sounds as low as in the 60db range?
My T wasn't noise induced and used to be very stable, very minor and no spikes.

Caution is good.

 

[Sam Bridge]

Are malls at concert levels of noise in the US or something? In England they really aren't that loud at all.

 

[PaulBe]

Are malls at concert levels of noise in the US or something?

They are when the flash-mobs attack.

 

[Bill Bauer]

Are malls at concert levels of noise in the US or something? In England they really aren't that loud at all.

Lex does not live in the US. In her post, she wrote that the people around her did not seem to think that the music was too loud. I cited her post as evidence that noises that are not that loud have the potential to hurt people like us.

 

[Sam Bridge]

Lex does not live in the US. In her post, she wrote that the people around her did not seem to think that the music was too loud. I cited her post as evidence that noises that are not that loud have the potential to hurt people like us.

But then not all of us are the same either. Most t people won't have the horible noise inflicted pain Lex has/had.

 

[Tinker Bell]

Lex does not live in the US. In her post, she wrote that the people around her did not seem to think that the music was too loud. I cited her post as evidence that noises that are not that loud have the potential to hurt people like us.

The music at the mall aggravated Lex's hyperacusis. That was her complaint, not worsening tinnitus. She has commented on multiple threads that it is her severe hyperacusis with pain — not her tinnitus — that bothers her the most.

Hyperacusis very much complicates how individuals respond to loud noises, how they recover, etc. Citing Lex's experience with loud music as a warning for all tinnitus sufferers without mentioning her severe hyperacusis is very misleading.

That is the problem with anecdotal information. There is no control for all factors and not all information is always included to help the reader identify whether the example truly matches their own situation. You referenced people like us but Lex's severe hyperacusis actually sets her apart from the majority of forum participants.

 

[JurgenG]

Seriously, I am very aware of all sound around me, now I need therapy for this obsession.
There is a middle ground in anything, I don't think we should go to loud places without protection, even if most people would be fine.
But as said before, A LOT of people have hearing damage, even when they don't have any form of T yet. So they should also start wearing peltors to stroll in the supermarket?
I agree that some heavy H sufferers are different, but this is not the case for most people.

I am glad I've got T more than a year ago, which has improved. Because if I would have seen threads as this I probably would be job-less and gf-less, I would be anxious beyond control.
So I really feel for the new sufferers and hopefully they take advice with a pinch of salt.

 

[Julien87]

The music at the mall aggravated Lex's hyperacusis. That was her complaint, not worsening tinnitus. She has commented on multiple threads that it is her severe hyperacusis with pain — not her tinnitus — that bothers her the most.

Yeah, that's the problem with Bill's method. If you take any thread to back up your claims, you mix up everything: discomfort due to hyperacusis, temporary and permanent T spikes, including spikes due to anxiety, spikes due to other circumstances and spikes actually due to noise..
Everytime it can look like it backs up his point when he presents them in bulk. But when you go look into each thread in detail you realize the story is not necessarily about damage due to noise. That's mainly why I criticize his methods (without any hate, of course..).

 

[Michael Leigh]

Yeah, that's the problem with Bill's method. If you take any thread to back up your claims, you mix up everything: discomfort due to hyperacusis, temporary and permanent T spikes, including spikes due to anxiety, spikes due to other circumstances and spikes actually due to noise..
Everytime it can look like it backs up his point when he presents them in bulk. But when you go look into each thread in detail you realize the story is not necessarily about damage due to noise. That's mainly why I criticize his methods (without any hate, of course..).

I agree with a lot in what you say and it's one of the reasons, I rarely use other threads or website links to backup my posts, particularly when writing about noise induced tinnitus. If one isn't careful, there is a danger of creating fear and anxiety in the reader, especially if they are new to tinnitus which we all know, can be difficult to deal with in the early stages.

Michael

 

[Jazzer]

I agree with your comments. The author of this thread should have shown more sensitivity in the title and not use the word hate, for I'm sure Bill is not hated. He has always conducted himself with civility and shown respect, even when dealing with adversity from some members. Some of his advice is very good but he can be overzealous with it at times, which Fishbone and I have mentioned. He is doing a good job but just needs to rein things in a little.

Michael

@Michael Leigh - @Bill Bauer 'overzealous?'
I dearly wish I'd met someone 'that overzealous' years ago...!!!

 

[MBH]

Hello Bill, I'm glad you have our backs with your type of caution, I certainly didn't receive any advice from docs and that's why we are on this forum. Thanks for all your forumism. Your information and knowledge is comforting.

 

[MBH]

Here facts:

Michael Leigh 4,173 posts over many years

Bill Bauer 4,152 posts over one year this is the amount of time put into this site.

But I think Bill is catching up to Michael, either way it's nice to know they have spent time helping and understanding people in need.

 

[Michael Leigh]

I dearly wish I'd met someone 'that overzealous' years ago...!!!

@Jazzer
I doubt whether reading Bill's posts would have made much difference to you years ago. You would still have played in a jazz band blowing your trombone loudly and in total bliss. The thought would be something like this: " Tinnitus won't happen to me". Many people are cavalier about the dangers of high noise levels affecting them until they get tinnitus. I presume you are still playing in a band blowing your trombone? Even wearing earplugs you're still putting yourself at risk. If external sound is loud enough it can pass through your skull and be transferred to your inner ear by bone conduction.

I watched a TV documentary some time ago about the dangers of high sound levels at nightclubs, which can cause hearing damage and tinnitus. Young people were being interviewed as they left the club. Their comments below are replies when told about the dangers of high sound levels at nightclubs. " The louder the music the better". "When I leave a club and my ears are ringing, it's a sign I've had a good night". "Earplugs are for whimps".

I rest my case.
Michael

 

[Jazzer]

@Jazzer
I doubt whether reading Bill's posts would have made much difference to you years ago. You would still have played in a jazz band blowing your trombone loudly and in total bliss. The thought would be something like this: " Tinnitus won't happen to me". Many people are cavalier about the dangers of high noise levels affecting them until they get tinnitus. I presume you are still playing in a band blowing your trombone? Even wearing earplugs you're still putting yourself at risk. If external sound is loud enough it can pass through your skull and be transferred to your inner ear by bone conduction.

I watched a TV documentary some time ago about the dangers of high sound levels at nightclubs, which can cause hearing damage and tinnitus. Young people were being interviewed as they left the club. Their comments below are replies when told about the dangers of high sound levels at nightclubs. " The louder the music the better". "When I leave a club and my ears are ringing, it's a sign I've had a good night". "Earplugs are for whimps".

I rest my case.
Michael

@Michael Leigh - all points taken and some disagreed with.
With regard to your opening sentence - we will never know, will we ??
In every band I have ever played, I have been the one player concerned about volume, who campaigns to reduce it as much as possible.
I have been active on this point for years.
I have not been remotely cavalier.
I completely occlude my left ear, and half occlude my right.
Yes I understand bone conduction.

Your impression seems to be that in Jazz, we blow our heads off as much as possible.
Simply not true.
You need to look at "Rock bands" to find that.

Finally; Music has been my life.
I was a brass band solo cornet player, from age ten to eighteen, when I switched to trombone, and turned my abilities to jazz performance.

Unlike all written music, Jazz demands a particular skill - the ability to hear and recognise chord sequences, and to create melodic lines above them.
Basically - thinking on one's feet.
I have that ability, not given to that many.
No - I am not a genius - just one of many fine jazz musicians.

I have truly considered packing up, but have been advised against it by my doctors, audiologists, ENTs, my fellow musicians, my friends, my children and my wife.

The contributions I have made, and the pleasure I have derived from my achievements, playing in many concert halls, in many countries, and many cruise ships, will of course mean nothing to you, but means a great deal to me.

Giving up is one possibility.
Going forward with great caution and care, is another.

I am currently 75 years old, and can not expect to live all that much longer.

And yes, I still believe that reading @Bill Bauer's posts would have done me much good.

I rest my case M'lud.

Jazzer xx

PS - I genuinely thank you for your concern x

 

[fishbone]

@Jazzer and @Michael Leigh

Both of you are fantastic people, please stop this. I want to comment on your posts but cannot take sides at all. Michael does have a point with Bill being too fanatical, with some of his advice and too extreme. I am sure Bill means well but for newcomers it can be a very aggressive stance on some things. I always believe that it's good to be moderate and not extreme, it's good to be balanced.

I respect Michael for some of his qualities (the man is brilliant with his posts) and I also respect jazzer for the life and achievements he has lived. To have played in a band and seen the world and excited thousands of people and seen the most beautiful women. That's a life most dream about.

Jazzer has lived his life to the max. I rather have lived a exciting life and possibly have tinnitus, than have lived a boring life with no memories. Not everyone that has lived their life to max has tinnitus either, so both of you mean well and I respect both of your views as usual

Music has also been my passion in life and I still listen to it even with the tinnitus I have, nothing changes that. The volumes are lower but the passion is always at an all time high...

I always come here to support and inspire and for me to inspire someone like jazzer inspires me

 

[Jazzer]

@Jazzer and @Michael Leigh

Both of you are fantastic people, please stop this. I want to comment on your posts but cannot take sides at all. Michael does have a point with Bill being too fanatical, with some of his advice and too extreme. I am sure Bill means well but for newcomers it can be a very aggressive stance on some things. I always believe that it's good to be moderate and not extreme, it's good to be balanced.

I respect Michael for some of his qualities (the man is brilliant with his posts) and I also respect jazzer for the life and achievements he has lived. To have played in a band and seen the world and excited thousands of people and seen the most beautiful women. That's a life most dream about.

Jazzer has lived his life to the max. I rather have lived a exciting life and possibly have tinnitus, than have lived a boring life with no memories. Not everyone that has lived their life to max has tinnitus either, so both of you mean well and I respect both of your views as usual

Music has also been my passion in life and I still listen to it even with the tinnitus I have, nothing changes that. The volumes are lower but the passion is always at an all time high...

I always come here to support and inspire and for me to inspire someone like jazzer inspires me

There you go again @fishbone - ever my friend.

But don't get us wrong fish'.
@Michael Leigh and myself are both gentlemen, trying to recommend the best for each other.
I truly appreciate that.
I didn't want anybody to run away with the idea that I have been cavalier over volume.
Ask anyone of probably a hundred traditional jazzers over here, what Dave's attitude to excessive volume is:
"I'm a real pain in the arse!"

Must also admit this.
Never great at school, I struggled to concentrate because I was trying to cope with schizoid withdrawal from the world, and chronic depression.
I had to concentrate on emotional survival.

Then one day somebody put a cornet in my hands, and within a week - "BINGO!"
I found I could play the bloody thing!
At last, I found something I could actually 'do' and be good at!
I guess we all need to succeed at some thing.
Jazzer x

 

[Michael Leigh]

Both of you are fantastic people, please stop this.

@fishbone @Jazzer

Thank you fishbone for writing such a great post and for your kind words. @Jazzer and I are cool as they say and I believe we understand each other. As we say on this side of the pond: it's water off a duck's back. I am a HI-FI enthusiast Jazzer and have been since the age of 16. My particular tastes are classical, opera and Jazz Fusion: David Sanborn, Lee Ritenour Michael Franks, Bob James etc I wish I could play an instrument and what a pleasure it must be to do so. My choice would be the cello, as I love the sound of the instrument.

Thanks for writing such a good post @Jazzer I hope you'll continue playing and joying music for many years to come.
All the best
Michael

 

[GregCA]

I have truly considered packing up, but have been advised against it by my doctors, audiologists, ENTs, my fellow musicians, my friends, my children and my wife.

Good for you Jazzer: you've talked to the real professionals. I did the same and got the same unanimous feedback as you from all ENT doctors, neurotologist (my ear surgeon), countless audiologists and the T expert from San Francisco.

I always recommend newcomers on this board to talk to real pros, because the advice they get in here by self-proclaimed experts is often worth the amount of money they paid for it: it needs to be taken with a big grain of salt.

People are quick to point out the risks of doing such and such activity, sometimes with a one-sided rhetoric that seems crafted to instill fear and doubt rather than consider the "whole picture" of a patient. What is often forgotten is the risk of NOT doing such and such activity.

Like you I considered ditching my music (I play drums - I enjoy Progressive Metal like @Bassplayer quite a bit) and my mood was very low when I was thinking of a future without it. Those thoughts contributed to my feeling depressed (I like to call it "objectively depressed" to distinguish it from depression as a condition that some believe is due to a brain chemical imbalance) and increased my dark thought moments with all the possible one-way consequences that I don't need to explain.

Being able to play music again, play video games again, forego dietary restrictions, drink coffee, drink wine, and basically "live again" has been a real saviour to me. I may not be here today if I had given up on these things, like some in here would have pushed me to.

Giving up is one possibility.
Going forward with great caution and care, is another.

Wise words. Good luck to you.

 

[Bassplayer]

Good for you Jazzer: you've talked to the real professionals. I did the same and got the same unanimous feedback as you from all ENT doctors, neurotologist (my ear surgeon), countless audiologists and the T expert from San Francisco.

I always recommend newcomers on this board to talk to real pros, because the advice they get in here by self-proclaimed experts is often worth the amount of money they paid for it: it needs to be taken with a big grain of salt.

People are quick to point out the risks of doing such and such activity, sometimes with a one-sided rhetoric that seems crafted to instill fear and doubt rather than consider the "whole picture" of a patient. What is often forgotten is the risk of NOT doing such and such activity.

Like you I considered ditching my music (I play drums - I enjoy Progressive Metal like @Bassplayer quite a bit) and my mood was very low when I was thinking of a future without it. Those thoughts contributed to my feeling depressed (I like to call it "objectively depressed" to distinguish it from depression as a condition that some believe is due to a brain chemical imbalance) and increased my dark thought moments with all the possible one-way consequences that I don't need to explain.

Being able to play music again, play video games again, forego dietary restrictions, drink coffee, drink wine, and basically "live again" has been a real saviour to me. I may not be here today if I had given up on these things, like some in here would have pushed me to.



Wise words. Good luck to you.

I should point out I love listening to prog metal but I can't play it for my life. I play in a covers band doing anything from Beatles to Led Zep!

 

[Jazzer]

@Michael Leigh.
I love you guys - so kind - just great !!

If it's hero time, for me:

Louis Armstrong (alias God)
Billie Holiday (Mrs God)
Wild Bill Davison (white cornetist from Defience.)
who I got to play with over here on a visit.

Also played with Stephan Grappelli, (vn)
Barney Kessell (gtr) in Montraux Switzerland.

(I BLOODY HATE POXY ONE-EYED
NAME DROPPERS !!!)

- sorry -

 

[GregCA]

I should point out I love listening to prog metal but I can't play it for my life.

I don't know how it is for the bass, but I do know that the drum parts are often quite challenging (lots of double bass going), and perhaps that's one of the things I like about it (it's quite a workout to play a few songs!). I particularly enjoy Avenged Sevenfold and Dream Theater, although I'm not sure I'll ever be able to do them justice.

 

[Bassplayer]

I don't know how it is for the bass, but I do know that the drum parts are often quite challenging (lots of double bass going), and perhaps that's one of the things I like about it (it's quite a workout to play a few songs!). I particularly enjoy Avenged Sevenfold and Dream Theater, although I'm not sure I'll ever be able to do them justice.

Seen Dream Theater a couple of times. Great band. I'm into a Danish band called Vola at the moment. Also Textures, Twelve Foot Ninja, Contortionist etc. Djent stuff really. Sorry to digress everyone....

 

[GregCA]

Seen Dream Theater a couple of times. Great band. I'm into a Danish band called Vola at the moment. Also Textures, Twelve Foot Ninja, Contortionist etc. Djent stuff really. Sorry to digress everyone....

With a thread title of "Why Do Some People Hate Bill Bauer?" I feel like any digression would be an improvement over the initial topic. Maybe we're going to see a moderator complain "guys, stay on topic! do you hate him or not?!"

 

[Sam Bridge]

With a thread title of "Why Do Some People Hate Bill Bauer?" I feel like any digression would be an improvement over the initial topic. Maybe we're going to see a moderator complain "guys, stay on topic! do you hate him or not?!"

Do you guys like Nightwish?

 

[threefirefour]

Do you guys like Nightwish?

They're okay. Kinda overrated.

 

[Bill Bauer]

I don't think we should go to loud places without protection, even if most people would be fine.

I agree.

A LOT of people have hearing damage, even when they don't have any form of T yet. So they should also start wearing peltors to stroll in the supermarket?

People should listen to the signals given by their bodies. Initially, I would be getting spikes, and feel uncomfortable upon hearing sounds like the rattle of metal shopping carts. Despite that, it hasn't occurred to me to do anything about it. After all - those are just Shopping Carts! After I read this forum, I learned that it is a good idea to protect my ears when I expect to encounter sounds that might cause a spike or even just my H complaining. When I started to do that, I got better. My H is now gone. Now I protect my ears in fewer places.

So, it seems to me, the takeaway is that if you don't have H and if your T is not reactive, then you don't need to change anything. You might consider staying away from moderately loud places [whenever you can easily do it] (in case you are like those people who don't feel pain, and who end up hurting themselves as a result) but that is probably an overkill. If, on the other hand, you have H and/or if your T is reactive, I believe it is a good idea for you to try to attempt to avoid those spikes and to avoid noises that make you feel discomfort as a result of H. Try it for three months and then decide whether you want to continue.

My plan is to gradually reintroduce myself to moderate sounds. Having said this, I won't be around any loud/live music ever again.

 

[Michael Leigh]

Do you guys like Nightwish?

Never heard of them @Sam Bridge so looked on youtube. Not my taste at all....
Michael