Why Doctors Are Usually Worthless (Minor Rant)

[Fangen]

Just wanted to lift this off my chest.

I went to a GP today to get a referral to a TMJ specialist, maybe I don't have TMJ or maybe I do, I just want to do what I can to rule things out and at least get some peace.

The doctor was an idiot. He asked me questions why I thought I needed the referral and then as soon I started to answer, he just cut me off. Did that maybe 5-7 times before I got irritated and nicely asked him to stop interrupt me. His whole body language and tone were just "you don't know anything and you are just making things up". I had to argue for my sake and eventually he hesitantly gave me the referral. Then gave me a 10 min speech why this was of no use to me anyways.
He also told me that jaws don't have anything to do with T. That T comes from fluid behind my ears.
T IS CAUSED BY FLUID BEHIND THE EARS. And noises. That are the two only causes for T.
I hope you understand that I got really freaking pissed off but kept my calm. He said that and then behaved like I was making this up, that I had no reason to go to a TMJ specialist because it has nothing to do with my T.

The other GP I saw a few weeks ago was just telling me about her Madonna concert and how loud it was and then told me that AD are so great, that I might consider to get them to ease my mind. I came there to ask for CBT, why the hell would you want to put somebody that is relatively young on AD? I am feeling good enough that I can carry out my work, pay my bills, living fairy decent but need help to get over those dips that I get all the time and the fear of having worse T. How can you not be educated enough to know that AD are not good for you unless you are in a really tough situation, and they are freaking oxidant which is BAD for your T.

Sorry for the rant guys but I am getting really fed up seeing doctors that knows NOTHING about T at all. Like telling me that the world is flat even though there are clear evidence that it is round. Then refusing to look at the evidence and then act like I am a nutjob.
I hope the TMJ specialist is good, she seems like she knows a lot about T and has worked with that a lot.

 

[Soul Reaver]

I feel you.
Some of the doctors I've seen even told me that they don't see T as a disease if there's no important underlying cause... (Which is a coward way of saying that "We're not yet capable of curing it") And keep saying that there's nothing to be done (Which is a coward way of saying that "I can't do anything about it"), you got to learn to live with it.

They didn't even know about AM-101 clinical tries that I had to find out myself... Just utter ignorance.

They may even prescribe thing that make T worse; my T is lower since I'm off of "vasoserc bid" (after getting suspicious of my T's getting worse with that drug, and reading countless comments sharing the same experience), which my doc prescribed...

 

[Fangen]

I feel you.
Some of the doctors I've seen even told me that they don't see T as a disease if there's no important underlying cause... (Which is a coward way of saying that "We're not yet capable of curing it") And keep saying that there's noting to be done (Which is a coward way of saying that "I can't do anything about it"), you got to learn to live with it.

They didn't even know about AM-101 clinical tries that I had to find out myself... Just utter ignorance.

They may even prescribe thing that make T worse; my T is lower since I'm off of "vasoserc bid" (after getting suspicious of my T's getting worse with that drug, and reading countless comments sharing the same experience), which my doc prescribed...

Sorry to hear that you have encountered bad doctors too. I wish they could just say hey, its a freaking problem but unfortunately we cannot treat it right now. At least that is the truth.
Doctors just usually wave people off because if they cannot treat it, why would they put time into trying to help to ease the symptoms. I suppose regular GP have no idea what is going on since they usually see patients with rashes and things like that I guess.
Glad that you found the cause of the increase, I can't believe how many doctors just prescribe things left and right and not even bother to check how it can affect T.

 

[Ed209]

Just wanted to lift this off my chest.

I went to a GP today to get a referral to a TMJ specialist, maybe I don't have TMJ or maybe I do, I just want to do what I can to rule things out and at least get some peace.

The doctor was an idiot. He asked me questions why I thought I needed the referral and then as soon I started to answer, he just cut me off. Did that maybe 5-7 times before I got irritated and nicely asked him to stop interrupt me. His whole body language and tone were just "you don't know anything and you are just making things up". I had to argue for my sake and eventually he hesitantly gave me the referral. Then gave me a 10 min speech why this was of no use to me anyways.
He also told me that jaws don't have anything to do with T. That T comes from fluid behind my ears.
T IS CAUSED BY FLUID BEHIND THE EARS. And noises. That are the two only causes for T.
I hope you understand that I got really freaking pissed off but kept my calm. He said that and then behaved like I was making this up, that I had no reason to go to a TMJ specialist because it has nothing to do with my T.

The other GP I saw a few weeks ago was just telling me about her Madonna concert and how loud it was and then told me that AD are so great, that I might consider to get them to ease my mind. I came there to ask for CBT, why the hell would you want to put somebody that is relatively young on AD? I am feeling good enough that I can carry out my work, pay my bills, living fairy decent but need help to get over those dips that I get all the time and the fear of having worse T. How can you not be educated enough to know that AD are not good for you unless you are in a really tough situation, and they are freaking oxidant which is BAD for your T.

Sorry for the rant guys but I am getting really fed up seeing doctors that knows NOTHING about T at all. Like telling me that the world is flat even though there are clear evidence that it is round. Then refusing to look at the evidence and then act like I am a nutjob.
I hope the TMJ specialist is good, she seems like she knows a lot about T and has worked with that a lot.

My experience is very similar, as is many other members here. It's something that needs to change by bringing more awareness to the condition, then hopefully more doctors will become better educated on the issue.

When I went to see my gp for a referral he had no information on tinnitus at all and because I was already under an ENT for my allergies he told me to bring it up at my next visit.

So, when I finally got to see the ENT I told her about my tinnitus and she just stopped and looked at me and said "but that's your ears". I obviously told her I knew that but was flabbergasted at her tone and how she insinuated that I must be stupid, so I pressed on and told her I knew it was my ears but asked if she could investigate it to see if she could find a cause. Without hesitation she said "but it's your ears, we are dealing with your allergies and sinuses."

I simply could not get through to her at all. She didn't even so much as look into my ears with an otoscope, she did nothing at all.

Before her I paid to see a private ENT a week after the onset and didn't get very far with him either. He gave me an audiogram via air conduction only; he couldn't even be bothered to do the bone conduction or a tympanometry. That was that.

I've booked in again with an audiologist on March 22nd for another audiogram, an OAE and a tympanometry test. All I want is a few tests to see if a cause can be found but what I am finding to my disgust is that the NHS in my case has just not bothered. I've had to pay for every test I've had, I say every, even when I paid I was greeted by a definite lack of interest and only given an audiogram.

I've yet to be given an MRI or any kind of investigative tests.

 

[Fangen]

My experience is very similar, as is many other members here. It's something that needs to change by bringing more awareness to the condition, then hopefully more doctors will become better educated on the issue.

When I went to see my gp for a referral he had no information on tinnitus at all and because I was already under an ENT for my allergies he told me to bring it up at my next visit.

So, when I finally got to see the ENT I told her about my tinnitus and she just stopped and looked at me and said "but that's your ears". I obviously told her I knew that but was flabbergasted at her tone and how she insinuated that I must be stupid, so I pressed on and told her I knew it was my ears but asked if she could investigate it to see if she could find a known cause. Without hesitation she said "but it's your ears, we are dealing with your allergies and sinuses."

I simply could not get through to her at all. She didn't even so much as look into my ears with an otoscope, she did nothing at all.

Before her I paid to see a private ENT a week after the onset and didn't get very far with him either. He gave me an audiogram via air conduction only; he couldn't even be bothered to do the bone conduction or a tympanometry. That was that.

I've booked in again with an audiologist on March 22nd for another audiogram, an OAE and a tympanometry test. All I want is a few tests to see if a cause can be found but what I am finding to my disgust is that the NHS in my case has just not bothered. I've had to pay for every test I've had, I say every, even when I paid I was greeted by a definite lack of interest and only given an audiogram.

I've yet to be given an MRI or any kind of investigative tests.

Sorry to hear about that Ed. I guess these kind of experiences are not that uncommon around here in the forum
I hope the new test might reveal something, or that you get someone that actually can be bothered to investigate a little more.

Fortunately in Sweden, once you pay over a decided level for medical care, you are given a free card to all the treatments within the public domain (TMJ not included though, cost like $350). So I've gotten a lot of use for that. I have not been even asked for a MRI, but not sure I would dare to do one anyway. Mine is noise induced so the cause is pretty clear. ENT here work with T, not sure why they seemed so surprised that you wanted to investigate your ears. I cannot say that my experiences have been much better.

My audiologist wanted to do an echo-testing on the ear drums, put in a device and told me not to jump at the high sound that would come. I was like "but I have T, why would you do that?". She just told me to sit still and not jump, but I got so anxious that I couldn't do it and told her that I wanted to skip it. She then sighed and then said she would lower the noise from the device. You treat people with hearing loss or T, how does it seem logical to plug in a device that will give out a really high beep? And if you can lower the noise, why didn't you do it from the beginning? GOSH!

 

[Dutchy]

You treat people with hearing loss or T, how does it seem logical to plug in a device that will give out a really high beep? And if you can lower the noise, why didn't you do it from the beginning? GOSH!

A really high beep (as in frequency) is not that bad,it depends on the volume whether it does harm,
nonetheless it's easy for those not having T to treat it like it's JUST sounds in your ears.

( A hidden high frequency noise/sound could damage your ears as well when you are not aware of it and are exposed to it over a long period of time)

 

[Ed209]

There is a general lack of interest in tinnitus because in most cases it's untreatable. That doesn't mean they shouldn't try. It appears to me that some of the best doctors for tinnitus are the ones who have tinnitus themselves. Only then do they understand it.

I don't think T can really be understood and comprehended from reading books. It truly is a condition that needs to be experienced or at least experienced through a partner or close friend to be properly appreciated.

 

[Dana]

(medium rant)

It's something that needs to change by bringing more awareness to the condition, then hopefully more doctors will become better educated on the issue.

Yes, we have to do something about it. It's only up to us to change things.
No T- free people will come to us one day and ask :" Aren't you, by any chance, suffering of a condition that is ranging from "a tiny nuisance" to "mild" or to "severe" or to "so torturous" that dieing becomes appealing and the medical establishment is treating it like it's not a problem (as "just" a sound) and you want us to change this attitude of the doctors and of the medical world in general?"
Some movements started toward bringing awareness to healthy population about the dangers of loud sounds, so they do not become like us, but how did we, the T sufferers, organize ourselves to unite our voices in order to be heard where we should be heard and to change this unfairness that we are subjected to by the medical world? Who is representing us, the already afflicted with T, to gain the rights that we ought to have but we do not?
We need to do something to stop the ignorance of doctors and get them educated re this "phantom condition", condition that is very real, actually, so we stop suffering "in silence" ("silence" for them only, but "terrible noise" for us in our heads), with our mouths shut up every time we try to announce just how bad T can get sometimes and that we need help)?
I personally do not even understand why do we, the T sufferers, have to fund ourselves the research for a cure. Did the sufferers of cancer, or hepatitis C, or any other serious condition had to chip in for research funds? No, they didn't. Why are we an exception? Because our condition is not visible? It is, but only while tested on medical devices that are only a few in the world, not in every country at least. Because our condition is not contagious? I'm afraid that is the reason. Healthy people can calmly ignore us, because they are not afraid that this condition can hit them one day too.
It is only depending on us to change things toward getting tinnitus acknowledged as a real condition that can get very severe sometimes, so the ignorance of doctors stops and T begins to be seriously funded for finding a cure for each T subtype. Why we are only left with the big pharmas to fund the research, looking at T like at only a potential for big business?
"That drug doesn't work for T? No problem, we can try tweaking another drug to replace an old drug for another condition and get our money from there"
Who is supposed to take care of us and doesn't?
We were not insured when we got sick? I think most of us were.
While we do not do anything in this direction, we deserve our fate, I am afraid.
Blind people organized themselves and obtained some rights that were entitled to (to get jobs), amputated people organized themselves and obtained wheelchairs and good prosthesis covered by insurance.
We shoud obtain hearing aids or maskers paid by our insurances! At least that!
What did we do in this direction?
Nothing!
Why?
What are we waiting for?
Our dieing day to bring us the coveted silence?

 

[Ed209]

I'm not sure what more the sufferers can do though? What's needed is some government funding to run a few ads to show exactly what loud sound will do to your ears. They spent millions on smoking campaigns as well as other issues like obesity, diabetes etc. Plenty of money is spent to educate people in the hope they change their ways for the better. We ALL know smoking and overeating is bad for us but hardly anyone knows about the dangers of loud sound in relation to tinnitus. Where is the campaign to promote this on a national scale like other problematic conditions have received?

Statistically more and more people are getting T and hearing problems in general are on the rise, most likely due to ear pod/headphone use (higher than ever) and clubs/concerts being far far louder than any other generation. The current generation are going to be the worst effected, they just don't know it yet because the education on the subject is stunningly quiet.

Let's start moving some of the budget into educating people on the delicate issue of our auditory system and how it never repairs itself once damage occurs. Educate people on exactly what this entails, most are totally oblivious and would take action if they knew. A lot of people would act if the message got out there properly; ear plugs would become more of a norm in clubs and at concerts.

 

[Fangen]

Let's start moving some of the budget into educating people on the delicate issue of our auditory system and how it never repairs itself once damage occurs. Educate people on exactly what this entails, most are totally oblivious and would take action if they knew. A lot of people would act if the message got out there properly; ear plugs would become more of a norm in clubs and at concerts.

It is like in the BTS video "people told me I'd go deaf, no one told me about Tinnitus". This is so true.
We might have heard about T at some point in our life (or maybe not at all) but no one really explained how easy it can be to get it if we are not careful.
Not to mention how stupid majority of all doctors are, even if you seek help or advice, they will give you the incorrect information and maybe you get it regardless because the doctors themselves don't seem to have interest to help out. They just see us as a burden because we ask for help and take resources and time, but it won't cure us like it does with other diseases.

I wish they would implement this "ear-screen", where you can see how loud the db is in the specific room/place and warn if it is going over a certain level. Or at clubs/concerts, the screen will be connected to the speakers, if you keep playing over a dangerous db for longer than x and y minutes, they the power will go and the speakers will be turned off. This would prevent people from playing too loud because no one want to have their music turned off right? And that way we could save people hearings, we cannot expect everyone to be educated in T and hope that they are protecting themselves.

Since T isn't even considered to be a disease but a condition, no one is interest to help out more than just see that you are not physical ill. I believe with every generation that have access to headphones, IMAX and all loud things, the population that suffers from T will increase to the point that it will become a national health issue. Unfortunately I believe a lot of people will have to suffer a life-time before the idiots in health care and in politics will care.
I go around and warn people that I know, at my job, my friends etc. That is what I can do. Social media maybe too. But there is no point of arguing with a doctor that is an ignorant **** because they will just wave you off and be rude because you are questioning their knowledge.

 

[Dana]

@Ed209

I'm not sure what more the sufferers can do though?

Although your post made me post my message, I am afraid that you missed my point. I was not at all referring at what we can do to educate people about the dangers of loud noises. If you asked me, I would do something to ban clubs to turn the volume past a certain level and ban headphones producers and mp3 player producers to make products that can blast music above the dangerous level. Simple as that!
The only problem would remain with the soldiers exposed to loud weapons and with the people unfortunate enough to be near explosions, or with noisy job environments (if we were to take into consideration only noise induced T)
My post was not about how can we warn people to not become victims of noise induced T, but why aren't we doing something to obtain hearing aids covered by our insurances, maskers covered by our insurances, HBOT covered and other treatments and tests covered by insurances, and also about finding out who is in charge with this condition, T, that has almost become an epidemic.
My post was about who is supposed to help us.
Nobody is?
How come?

 

[snow86]

@Ed209

but why aren't we doing something to obtain hearing aids covered by our insurances, maskers covered by our insurances, HBOT covered and other treatments and tests covered by insurances, and also about finding out who is in charge with this condition, T, that has almost become an epidemic.
My post was about who is supposed to help us.
Nobody is?
How come?

Depends on where you live :/...In germany you will get all these things from your insurance. The insurance is automatically paid from your salary. If you dont have a job the state will provide insurance for free. Theres at least that. Too bad none of these things help with extreme T. (yes as you said, dying appeals very appealing with extreme T) We need a real treatment.

But as ATEOS said...much of these things are driven by mediocrity...Like he pointed out that US ARMY is focusing on the aftermath of T and "management therapies" like CBT/TRT etc.

As for the topic...yes. Same for psychiatrists and other specialists.

 

[Ed209]

@Ed209

Although your post made me post my message, I am afraid that you missed my point. I was not at all referring at what we can do to educate people about the dangers of loud noises. If you asked me, I would do something to ban clubs to turn the volume past a certain level and ban headphones producers and mp3 player producers to make products that can blast music above the dangerous level. Simple as that!
The only problem would remain with the soldiers exposed to loud weapons and with the people unfortunate enough to be near explosions, or with noisy job environments (if we were to take into consideration only noise induced T)
My post was not about how can we warn people to not become victims of noise induced T, but why aren't we doing something to obtain hearing aids covered by our insurances, maskers covered by our insurances, HBOT covered and other treatments and tests covered by insurances, and also about finding out who is in charge with this condition, T, that has almost become an epidemic.
My post was about who is supposed to help us.
Nobody is?
How come?

There is no way that headphones will ever be banned above a certain volume and I don't believe they should. The key is education, then it's up to people to excise their freedom to do as they wish. I believe there should be a limit in clubs (it won't ever happen though) and I also believe there should be disclaimer notices at the doors of clubs warning that you could irreversibly damage your hearing and acquire tinnitus by entering their premises.

Why bother campaigning against smoking for example when you could just ban cigarettes? Banning everything isn't always the answer; education is. Once the mass population know what's going on headphones would be used differently and sales could even drop. Either way damage limitation would occur.

I have no idea how the US insurance system works with regards to hearing aids etc but you do get hearing aids in the UK on the NHS for hearing loss.

You have to remember we are dealing with different countries and each has their own way of dealing with things, but what seems to be consistent is the huge lack of education around the subject of tinnitus. This includes the medical community as well as the general public.

 

[Mithrandir]

@snow86

US ARMY makes bullshit with CBT/TRT but I think they take part in Tzoonopoulos lab in Pittsburgh for SF00034 ?

Maybe they will open their eyes...

 

[Fangen]

I would do something to ban clubs to turn the volume past a certain level and ban headphones producers and mp3 player producers to make products that can blast music above the dangerous level. Simple as that!

I know that there are some laws (I think from the US) that bans headphones from playing over 100db if I am not mistaken. I believe there is a limit for how loud headphones can be, however there are always loopholes that companies will find.

Also, in Sweden we have laws for how loud a bar/club/concert can play, both to protect hearing but also so that it does not disturb people living around the place. But that doesn't mean that people can't play it over the banned level, who is going to check? Sometimes the government go out and measure, the places that are playing to loud are given warnings and fees. But that doesn't mean that you can't be unlucky and still get T.

 

[Dana]

Why bother campaigning against smoking for example when you could just ban cigarettes? Banning everything isn't always the answer; education is.

If banning is not the answer, why heroine and cocaine and other drugs are banned, with harsh punishments for people who sell them, when education is the key?
Cigarettes should become illegal because they are highly addictive and at a certain point you can't stop smoking more and more (tolerance occurs).
Cigarettes being legal represents a crime done by the states, and they are legal because the states get good money from cigarettes buyers, which is an appalling way of thinking. I am not sure i got my T only from chain smoking, but I am sure in my multifactorial T cigarettes played a big part. I did not read on the packets a warning that smoking can cause T, but it can.
Anyway, that is already on off topic subject, the original topic was the unacceptable behaviour and lack of education of the doctors.
We go to them only to end up paying for their incompetence and lack of knowledge .

 

[Ed209]

If banning is not the answer, why heroine and cocaine and other drugs are banned, with harsh punishments for people who sell them, when education is the key?
Cigarettes should become illegal because they are highly addictive and at a certain point you can't stop smoking more and more (tolerance occurs).
Cigarettes being legal represents a crime done by the states, and they are legal because the states get good money from cigarettes buyers, which is an appalling way of thinking. I am not sure i got my T only from chain smoking, but I am sure in my multifactorial T cigarettes played a big part. I did not read on the packets a warning that smoking can cause T, but it can.
Anyway, that is already on off topic subject, the original topic was the unacceptable behaviour and lack of education of the doctors.
We go to them only to end up paying for their incompetence and lack of knowledge .

Can't compare headphones to crack and heroine that's apples and oranges. I'm saying banning clubs and headphones etc would do nothing to help, ironically just like banning drugs does nothing to help addicts. It just increases crime instead.

You have to educate people so they have free will to do as they please. If they continue to use headphones at ridiculous volumes knowing the risk then it's their choice and they were warned.

 

[Ed209]

I'll just add that historically banning things never works. It just leads to illegal methods of obtaining whatever it is you have banned making it worse.

Look at prohibition for instance and the current war on drugs which is a losing battle as well. It just doesn't work.

 

[Dana]

I'll just add that historically banning things never works. It just leads to illegal methods of obtaining whatever it is you have banned making it worse.

Look at prohibition for instance and the current war on drugs which is a losing battle as well. It just doesn't work.

It worked for me. If drugs were legal I would have tried them a long time ago. I haven'T simply because I am reluctant to buy something illegal. Banning drugs like heroine and cocaine and the likes saved some lives for sure At least mine.
Allowing something is equivalent to a guarantee that is not harmful.

 

[Ed209]

It worked for me. If drugs were legal I would have tried them a long time ago. I haven'T simply because I am reluctant to buy something illegal. Banning drugs like heroine and cocaine and the likes saved some lives for sure At least mine.
Allowing something is equivalent to a guarantee that is not harmful.

I completely disagree with that. That's why education is important! If you would take heroine simply because it's legal shows your thinking is massively flawed. Whether it's legal or not makes no difference to the substance you are putting into your body. The problem is that people can be like lemmings and just do something because it's "legal." I certainly wouldn't stab myself in the foot because it's legal! I have also never smoked (it's legal) even though several of my friends did; I have always seen cigarettes as cancer sticks because my mom told me as a child to never smoke. Sometimes legality has no bearing on people's decisions, its mainly an outside influence from the people they hang around with. If people were properly educated you could reduce the numbers.

The only difference legality would have is on the horrendous crime side of drugs which only gets worse. If it was legal you could guarantee the drugs are not cut with toxic substances and you would also eliminate an incredible amount of murders and other crimes such as burgularies and muggings.

Tax them and put the revenue to better uses. As a deterrent there should be a disclaimer in health insurance policies that stipulate drug users will NOT get the same help as non users.

You will NEVER beat the war on drugs and people will use them if they want to regardless of their legality.

 

[Dana]

Can't compare headphones to crack and heroine that's apples and oranges. I'm saying banning clubs and headphones etc would do nothing to help, ironically just like banning drugs does nothing to help addicts. It just increases crime instead.

I didn't say to ban clubs, headphones etc. I would prefer not to have my statements misquoted in order to be ridiculed later. I just said that some laws to interdict the noise in clubs to go past a certain level would be good. If such laws can not be enforced, because verifying is difficult, I would make laws to make adjustments to the audio equipment to not be able to crank up the volume to dangerous level. If that does not completely solve the problem, because for each law there are some that break it, at least such rules would be more effective in reducing the cases of noise induced T than some warning on the doors of the clubs, that nobody will read in poor light and while being drunk and crushed in line.

You have to educate people so they have free will to do as they please. If they continue to use headphones at ridiculous volumes knowing the risk then it's their choice and they were warned.

I think that is unethical to scatter dangers all over the place, with some warnings in fine print, and to say in the end that if they got T is their fault. Doesn't matter whose fault it was, whether it was theirs or others.
People should not get T, so they should all be protected, period. Some people are stupid, some are irresponsible, some are drunk, some are unconscious, but they should all be protected.

 

[Dana]

What's the logic to let clubs crank up the volume at any level and educate people to always wear noise filters to not hear that volume? That's ridiculous!

If you would take heroine simply because it's legal shows your thinking is massively flawed.

Doesn'T matter if this thinking is massively flawed or not, the point is that this massively flawed thinking saved me from becoming a heroine addict, and that is the final goal!

I certainly wouldn't stab myself in the foot because it's legal!

I said that I would prefer to not be misquoted in order to ridicule my statements. Anyway, I never saw anywhere knives sold as "knife for stabbing you own leg", so there isn't anywhere an enticing to stab your own leg, like the enticing those clubs with dangerous noise level exert on you in order to have "a cool experience". I had enough of this dialogue. Your arguments simply do not convince me.

 

[Ed209]

I'm not ridiculing you Dana, I'm just disagreeing with you. First I wouldn't say headphones or stereo equipment are in the same realm as class A drugs for a comparison.

I completely agree with limiting volumes in clubs and bars though as my post above says. They should be limited and have a disclaimer at the door because some people stay all night and even at 80db, that can be damaging. Especially if your going out all the time.

 

[Dana]

First I wouldn't say headphones or stereo equipment are in the same realm as class A drugs for a comparison.

I would say they are, in terms of suffering and effect on health that they can cause. The level of suffering from a noise induced T in some cases is very much comparable with the level of suffering from heroine withdrawal. As a matter of fact, I would have preferred to have drug withdrawal problems right now than the T that I have to deal with. As a heroine addict I could have switched to the legal methadone, which is also a drug, but a drug that the states make a lot of money from, but for T what do we have?
Would you say that "stabbing your own leg because it's legal" is in the same realm with "starting to smoke and drink alcohol because it's legal"? For the first action there isn't a special product approved by the state to be manufactured, for the latter two actions there are products allowed by the state to be made exactly for those purposes.. If I am talking about oranges in a conversation about apples, at least I stayed in the realm of fruits, but with your example of harming yourself with objects sold for something completely different, I think you tried to ridicule me, but that may be my massively flawed thinking. I didn't even know that something can be "massively flawed", BTW.
But if you agree with putting limitations on the noise volume in clubs, as you stated above (which means you agree with banning making noise above a certain level, although you said that historically banning never works), then we agree in the major point, and that's what is important.
Why there is so much bickering on this forum, I wonder.
I'll put it down as a result of overstretched nerves by this maddening T.
Before T life was a joke for me, even during bad times it seemed like a joke, a bad joke, of course, but since I got T I am always in "fight or fight mode".
I propose to make peace, for a change.

 

[Ed209]

I don't want to argue too much about this Dana because you are obviously a nice person and don't see the point in falling out over a different opinion.

My view on your latest point would be that they are only bad for your ears when misused. People need to turn stuff down! Heroine is never good for you and serves no purpose at all. Sound equipment can't just be swept aside and banned because of tinnitus, there is still a need for it and plenty of people use headphones for their job. I'm a musician so I'm looking at things from a creative perspective. The big issue is the volume people play things at and this is what needs to change. Whether it be in a club or through headphones, people need to know the danger.

The equipment is not to blame, the misuse is and the lack of knowledge on the subject is a definite problem. Kids are especially not aware and yet iPhones/androids and similar devices are in pretty much every kids pockets nowadays. Almost all of them max out the volume which is around 100db; it's far too loud but they all blast it like that everywhere they go because they don't know the danger.

I've told my cousins kids who I see regularly and other kids who I teach and they listen to me. I've given them the blunt facts of what loud noise has done to my hearing and it scared them. They no longer have it beyond half way.

 

[Ed209]

But if you agree with putting limitations on the noise volume in clubs, as you stated above (which means you agree with banning making noise above a certain level, although you said that historically banning never works

Limiting is not banning though; it is limiting. Although it would be extremely difficult to enforce such a rule. If you banned clubs there would be illegal underground gatherings by the following week. The U.K. Notoriously had an underground rave scene which was banned and illegal, yet the police could never shut them down or stop them. In fact the police have gone on record as saying they were better organised then the military at bringing thousands of people together on very short notice.

 

[truesilence]

I don't want to argue too much about this Dana because you are obviously a nice person and don't see the point in falling out over a different opinion.

My view on your latest point would be that they are only bad for your ears when misused. People need to turn stuff down! Heroine is never good for you and serves no purpose at all. Sound equipment can't just be swept aside and banned because of tinnitus, there is still a need for it and plenty of people use headphones for their job. I'm a musician so I'm looking at things from a creative perspective. The big issue is the volume people play things at and this is what needs to change. Whether it be in a club or through headphones, people need to know the danger.

The equipment is not to blame, the misuse is and the lack of knowledge on the subject is a definite problem. Kids are especially not aware and yet iPhones/androids and similar devices are in pretty much every kids pockets nowadays. Almost all of them max out the volume which is around 100db; it's far too loud but they all blast it like that everywhere they go because they don't know the danger.

I've told my cousins kids who I see regularly and other kids who I teach and they listen to me. I've given them the blunt facts of what loud noise has done to my hearing and it scared them. They no longer have it beyond half way.

I see people everyday going into the 'red zone' on their iPhone. I feel like screaming at them.

 

[Ed209]

I see people everyday going into the 'red zone' on their iPhone. I feel like screaming at them.

It's all too common and sad to see. The next generation really will be the tinnitus generation if things don't change.

 

[dboy]

Limiting is not banning though; it is limiting. Although it would be extremely difficult to enforce such a rule.

It is p'raps worth noting that some countries have done this, eg. the Netherlands:

The dB restrictions are nationwide among all big venues and festivals. It's the legally binding (I think) result of a cooperation between the government, an organisation representing all venues/festivals and a couple of 'prevent hearing loss' foundations. I have a summary here, which I'll quickly try to translate to English:

1. The average SPL won't be above 103dB(A), measured over 15 minutes.
2. The dB level will be measured for the entire duration of the performance.
3. There should be affordable hearing protection available, with adequate dB reduction (17 SNR).
4. If the SPL is higher than 96dB(A), visitors will be notified of the high SPL, the risks of hearing damage and the options to protect your hearing.
5. Communication should be in such a way that visitors will be informed.
6. Loudspeakers producing more than 96 dB(A) are at a safe distance from the audience as much as possible. (If possible >2 meters at 103 dB(A). If this is not possible, warning sign will be placed on the loudspeakers.
7. All staff is informed of the SPL standards, the risks of hearing damage and the protective measures.

Some venues hand out free earplugs near the entrance and/or restrict the volume even more, at their own initiative

 

[truesilence]

It's all too common and sad to see. The next generation really will be the tinnitus generation if things don't change.

What I simply can't understand is why some of them haven't developed T already.