2020 US Presidential Election
- Thread starter Born To Slay
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Member- Apr 6, 2020
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I'm afraid that this could become a precedent in other countries as well. Far right extremists, climate change denying farmers and anti-vax conspiracy activists are already working together in my country and organised many protests against my government and their policy against the COVID-19 epidemic. Cas Mudde, an expert on right wing extremism and columnist at the Guardian, wrote an interesting piece about this global phenomena.
Link:
https://www.theguardian.com/comment...n-washington-dc-is-happening-around-the-world
Do you think this could also happen in Spain?
In my view, it's vital that we maintain our progressive values when interacting with people. We are not the "fuck your feelings" side and we should not emulate the "fuck your feelings" side. I'm not falling for anything, I just apply the same attitude toward people I disagree with, to people I agree with. If I don't do that, then it's not really a value.
It'd be different if he insulted anyone here in a personal way but I don't believe he has. If he has hurt someone's feelings here, that person should tell him so, as I doubt he would've meant to do so on purpose.
I agree it's ironic that someone would be offended by that term when cheering on the end of PC, but I don't know if he personally does that and if he does, this could probably be a learning moment for him. That he doesn't like his feelings undermined and therefore he shouldn't do it others (hypothetically speaking, again, I don't know if he did hurt someone's feelings here).
I understand your view, I have a close friend in real life, who'd definitely agree with you 100% and we often go back and forth on things like this. Yesterday I called to check on her in the psych ward and we debated whether it was sad that woman died in the Capitol. She said the woman was trying to end democracy and therefore was subhuman and deserved it. She said we shouldn't include her in the death stat. I disagreed, I said even though it's true that she did something awful and disgraceful, it's still sad that we lost a life and a family and a group of friends lost someone. We ended up agreeing to disagree. At the end of the day, I believe progressive values are so superior that we should never wish to emulate the other side.
- Apr 6, 2020
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But for real though, he has to be mentally ill right? Like he either lied his ass off for four years and ended that with the biggest lie and conspiracy theory in American history or was so delusional that he actually believes all these outlandish things.
I have to believe there's something that caused this. Personally, I think he has some really bad self esteem issues that may be triggering this kind of behavior. These issues maybe were ingrained in him as a kid that not being the best at everything or not winning everything makes you a failure and these values were so ingrained in him that his psyche can't accept failure and he's so terrified of his own subconscious judgment and the public's judgement, that he just can't accept it. It'd be too much for him.
Deep down, I think he's a sad, scared, lonely soul.
This is why I 100% support using the 25th amendment. He was always a little off but losing the election seems to have caused him a mental collapse and he is not fit to be President as a result. It's my sincere hope that after this is all over, he sees a professional to deal with this.
- Apr 6, 2020
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This is getting out of hand. Michiel Vos is a Dutch-American journalist who was covering the news at the moment for a Dutch news outlet. He is known in my country for being critical of Donald Trump and his alt-right movement. So no, you should not consider this as an endorsement for Trumpian fascism.
- Aug 5, 2019
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Now would be a good time for me to explain why I laughed hysterically at his post and didn't feel bad about it. Let's say he said something like the following:
"I voted for Trump, but I think what happened at the Capitol is way out of line. I would appreciate not being called Trumper, as I do not stand by his side, even though I voted for him."
If he said something like that (but in his own words or with some variation), I definitely would not have laughed about it. What I thought was ridiculous was that he didn't separate himself from Trump and he made an added point (so that we would "get it") to say that it was like being called a "wet back."
It's that extra part that made me lose empathy for him. He was trying to get us to see him -- a Trump supporter, the day after Trump incited a riot on Capitol Hill -- as similar to an innocent Mexican being called a "wet back" by a bigot. I'm sorry, that is so fucking offensive. And to top things off, this is coming from someone who voted for the most brazen asshole imaginable.
Moreover, all this talk about fraud without evidence is highly offensive to people that voted against Trump. They are saying that democracy doesn't matter. That's extremely offensive.
You're right. I agree with your friend. When someone dehumanizes you for years and years, there has to be a line. Those same people call black protestors "animals" (you know about this) and make a point to dehumanize anyone who disagrees with them. I'm sorry, I certainly don't cheer for the death and if I had a choice between her dying and not dying, I would choose not dying. But do I feel bad about it? No.
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Slightly unrelated:
I like you a lot. I am curious about your opinion on this. Isn't the whole chasm between Progressives and Liberals based on the concept of "high road" versus "not taking it anymore." For example, Michelle Obama said "when they go low, we go high". Barack Obama also exemplifies this viewpoint. On the other hand, AOC is much more in the camp of not trying to please Republicans and to ruthlessly fight. It doesn't surprise me that AOC has this viewpoint since she receives tons of death threats from people who dehumanize her.
I am curious, because you are a progressive. Aren't you more on the Liberal side on this topic? That's not necessarily a criticism or anything, but it seems like you are speaking for Progressives when I get a sense that someone like AOC would be more on the side of having enough. I bounce back and forth on this topic. After the recent riot, I am more in the "not taking it anymore" camp like AOC and your friend. I don't agree with AOC on every policy, but I find her fight refreshing.
- Apr 6, 2020
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If I understand it correctly, Jimmy Dore has pressured progressive politicians in leveraging Pelosi's next term as speaker in exchange for supporting Medicare For All. Not all progressives wanted to do this out of fear of negatively influencing the Georgian elections, which could have favoured the Republicans, who would have bashed Ossoff and Warnock for being socialists in hopes of attracting the moderate vote.
The push for Medicare For All is still on the table if Biden commences his Presidency. Bernie Sanders and AOC are still hell-bent on pushing this through. But for now, most politicians are understandably more preoccupied with the fascist threat that both Trump and the GOP have unleashed on democracy.
Mainly in western countries that is happening. In Latin America there is some instability, but it's mainly leftist uprisings instead of the right wing kind we have seen recently. Based on what this Peruvian woman I know said anyways. In eastern Asia there's nothing like that whether that's Japan, China, Korea (both north/south) etc etc. A thing that shocks so many Japanese people I spoke to is that they couldn't understand the fact they you could get fired for expressing your political beliefs in the west, although they mainly talk about the US on this specific part. This is just me giving a small example on how united they are compared to the current divided states of some countries in Europe and the 5 eye nations. They don't make a fuss about masks either.
They say we have just entered the Asian century because the worlds largest and wealthiest trade area was signed there (RCEP). Japan alone almost dominated economically and culturally before the Plaza-Accord. China, Japan and South Korea have been becoming more co-operative lately both economically and politically, where not so long they wouldn't have agreed to the RCEP. Then there's the belt and road initiative and the infrastructure boom in Africa with it where a lot of the fastest growing economies in the world are there too.
The future is starting to head to a more multi-polar world with more focus on development and peace. I'm actually rather optimistic about the future, although there might be some bumpy roads for certain countries that are declining.
All one has to do is watch the hearings (which featured many witnesses) and read the court filings which were accompanied with numerous affidavits.
There were many court cases, but I'm not sure how many looked into the actual fraud issues. They were tossed out for reasons such as lateness or no standing. The courts rejected requests for audits. If someone can cite to cases which actually looked into fraud issues, that will be helpful.
On Wisconsin:
Wisconsin Supreme Court rejects Trump election lawsuit
"In the 4-3 ruling, the court's three liberal justices were joined by conservative swing Justice Brian Hagedorn who said three of Trump's four claims were filed too late and the other was without merit."
On Michigan:
Michigan Supreme Court, in 4-3 decision, refuses to hear election fraud case
"The three Democratic-nominated justices — Chief Justice Bridget McCormack and Justices Richard Bernstein and Megan Cavanagh — were joined by Republican nominee Elizabeth Clement in denying the requested actions without first hearing oral arguments."
I'm not going to go through each state, but you get the gist.
Also, there are whole of other issues which facilitate voter fraud. Just in the GA election, signature verification rules were changed where essentially there was no signature verification.
Graham says Stacey Abrams 'conned' Georgia GOP into helping Biden win
There were many court cases, but I'm not sure how many looked into the actual fraud issues. They were tossed out for reasons such as lateness or no standing. The courts rejected requests for audits. If someone can cite to cases which actually looked into fraud issues, that will be helpful.
On Wisconsin:
Wisconsin Supreme Court rejects Trump election lawsuit
"In the 4-3 ruling, the court's three liberal justices were joined by conservative swing Justice Brian Hagedorn who said three of Trump's four claims were filed too late and the other was without merit."
On Michigan:
Michigan Supreme Court, in 4-3 decision, refuses to hear election fraud case
"The three Democratic-nominated justices — Chief Justice Bridget McCormack and Justices Richard Bernstein and Megan Cavanagh — were joined by Republican nominee Elizabeth Clement in denying the requested actions without first hearing oral arguments."
I'm not going to go through each state, but you get the gist.
Also, there are whole of other issues which facilitate voter fraud. Just in the GA election, signature verification rules were changed where essentially there was no signature verification.
Graham says Stacey Abrams 'conned' Georgia GOP into helping Biden win
- Apr 30, 2018
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@Lilah -- The thing is, there were fair and honest elections. How anybody cannot see that Trump and his political allies are lying constantly about this is totally beyond me.
@ajc -- I absolutely believe you that you would do anything for him. All I have to do is look at the misfits that stormed the capital, and then look at the polls about how Republicans feel about it. Just unbelievable.
The fact that 45% of Republicans approve of the storming, and 30% think of the perpetrators as patriots kinda demolishes the veracity of claims that these rioters were Antifa. Really? If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's pretty certain it is a duck--as in dumbass Trump supporter.
See, I don't recall Pulsing Ear saying anyone was an animal but maybe he did, I don't read every post here admittedly, there's far too many to keep up 100%. And also to be clear, I was only trying to say to him that I hoped that my own words didn't offend him, as I also said I couldn't tell if he was serious. I wasn't saying you did anything wrong. I don't think I did anything wrong either but feelings aren't always that rational and black and white.
That said, that's an interesting question. And I do consider myself to be on the progressive side of that discussion. I believe that legally we should do anything possible to enact progressive policy and that includes slamming it thru congress in the shadiest of ways. Do whatever it takes to enact progressive policies, procedure and decorum be damned. If I had it my way, we'd abolish the filibuster and pass every policy possible in the next 2 years and watch as the GOP cries and bitches.
But, I believe we can do that while still understanding that everyone is a human being. Me being mean to a person or hurting their feelings does not accomplish anything. Especially when the people here, despite holding views the two of us don't like, have been mostly civil and nice to us. At the end of the day, democracy only is possible when people talk to each other. Not that tried to hurt anyone's feelings btw, this is just philosophical discussion.
Just to be clear though, I respect your view on this and completely get where you are coming from.
He's certified insane. You have seen the video where he bragged about doing an Alzheimer's test that I posted here before. Yes that test that asked "what is an elephant?" and he was trying to make it out like it an intelligence test to boost his ego. I'm surprised his head hasn't exploded on how inflated it is the narcissistic bastard. It was that point when I realised he was crazier than I thought. It was the most embarrassing thing I have ever seen.
Don't forget that he wrote his own medical report to prove he was healthy lol. Read this in his voice.
"If elected, Mr. Trump, I can state unequivocally, will be the healthiest individual ever". Yep he wrote that lmao
I'm no doctor, but when his test said it came back "positive"... I don't think that's a good thing LOL. You don't want positive tests.
Even in your link, it says a case was rejected because it lacked merit. Courts don't hear just anything you bring to them. If it lacked merit, that means the court didn't consider the case and the evidence brought to them worthy.
- Apr 30, 2018
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I'm certainly not "the Left", but I'll tell you why Trump and his followers upset me. He and his ilk have inflicted almost incalculable damage on the people of the U.S., the world, and the major institutions that are the bedrocks of U.S. democracy--and so much more. He's instilled within his followers a deep sense of grievance, hatred, and have incited them to think and feel like he does.
The poisonous effects of his lies, anger, sense of vengeance, and so much more have greatly weakened this country, and it will take many years, and perhaps a generation to heal, if we head in the direction of healing. The insurgency we saw at the capital on the other hand could just be the start of a long-term insurgency. These things can last for years, even decades (and they often do). People think things like this can't happen in the U.S., but the effects of what Trump has unleashed could last indefinitely, much to the detriment of every U.S. citizen.
Let me ask you something. Do you think Trump bears any responsibility for the planned kidnapping of Michigan's Governor? Do you think it's appropriate for anybody to kidnap any Governor, whether Democrat or Republican? Do you think people have the right to bring bombs into the Capital just because their dear leader led them to believe they should do so?
Do you think indiscriminate bombings of government buildings are appropriate (could very well happen)? Do you think it's appropriate to lie and lie and lie, just to somehow keep a hold on power? Trump and Trumpism are so corrosive, it can only lead to more chaos and destruction. I'd rather not live in a country like that, though I will stay to do what I can to educate and further any kind of healing process that Biden might be able to initiate.
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What are you talking about? The anger is not over Biden winning and having the trifecta. The anger is over the repeated attempts to use force to undo democracy.
I can tell you follow a lot of right wing media. I know this is how they talk about the Left. They 100% dismiss the reasons why they are angry and act like they just woke up that way.
What if two days ago, the security breach at the Capitol Building was just a little more? What if instead of snapping pictures in Nancy Pelosi's office, someone pulled a gun out of their backpack and gunned down a bunch of members of congress? We would be having a civil war. This is what people are angry about. You know this, you are just trying to place the blame on the left.
So, what I said is correct that the court dismissed the case because the "claims" "lacked merit", and did not even review the case. The court did not even want to look at the case.
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I don't think you understand what "not wanting to look at the case" meant. They looked at it. They just didn't invest heavy resources to pursue it because it lacked merit.
Kind of like if I accused you of murder and within a few minutes, the cops discovered that you had a credible alibi. If the Supreme Court would not look at this case, does that mean it's bullshit because you really committed murder?
Did you see the video with Trump supporters trying to stop Antifa from breaking the glass? They were there wearing Trump hats. It was a setup. Trumpers never loot or burn. They are not on food stamps. They are working people.
"The term "without merit" means that no legal basis exists for the acceptance, allowance, or crediting of a claim, defense, or legal argument"
https://www.avvo.com/legal-answers/in-legal-terms-what-does-it-mean-without-merit--3190279.html
When the court says it lacks merit, it's saying that there's no legal or factual basis to take the case. The case is just not strong enough to be heard in a court of law.
Buddy, we now know the identities of some of these people. They were Trump supporters. And over 40 million Americans are on food stamps, most of them work.
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I think I'm going to [try] to leave this thread as well. Calling these people out accomplishes nothing. They are narcissists like their cult leader. Trump could literally shoot their family members and they would say it was someone else's fault (I'm not kidding).
What's wrong with some people being on food stamps?
A lot of people got put on that after losing their jobs because of Trump's failure at handling the pandemic and civil unrest that came with it. That includes Trump voters too. People need to eat and survive.
Just know you are always welcome back buddy, especially because once Biden is in there's sure to be plenty of more substantive policy conversations as the Democratic trifecta tries to pass legislation.
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I so wish the Republican Party could extricate themselves from the likes of Josh Hawley, Ron Johnson, Ted Cruz, Newt Gingrich, Jim Jordan, the Trumps, Mitch McConnell, etc. I always liked John Danforth (dean of Missouri Republicans), and could easily see myself supporting him or others with similar integrity, no matter which party they belonged to. It appears however, that the Republican party may never recover from Trumpism, which has absolutely nothing to do with honesty and integrity. But everything to do with lies, cruelty, voter suppression, and so much more.
As Josh Hawley loses a book deal over the Capitol riots, his GOP mentor says backing him was 'the worst mistake I ever made'
As Josh Hawley loses a book deal over the Capitol riots, his GOP mentor says backing him was 'the worst mistake I ever made'
"John C. Danforth, a former Republican senator from Missouri, had once viewed Sen. Josh Hawley (R-Mo.) as a "once-in-a-generation" talent — a young, upstart politician with a promising future in Washington.
Yet after a mob of Trump supporters burst into the Capitol on Wednesday, Danforth said that campaigning for Hawley to take his old seat was "the worst mistake I ever made in my life."
Hawley had been the first senator to announce he would object to President-elect Joe Biden's victory, citing baseless claims of mass election fraud. So when the rioters bashed inside, attempting to overturn the election, it was clear who was at fault, Danforth said.
"But for him it wouldn't have happened," Danforth told the Kansas City Star. He made the certification vote "a way to express the view that the election was stolen. He was responsible."
The former senator was far from the only one to lay blame on his former protege. In the span of about five hours on Thursday afternoon, Hawley was denounced by one of his top donors, dropped from a book deal and lambasted by several Missouri Republicans. Calls for him to resign poured in from the editorial boards of Missouri's two major newspapers and students at the law school where he was once taught..."
Yet after a mob of Trump supporters burst into the Capitol on Wednesday, Danforth said that campaigning for Hawley to take his old seat was "the worst mistake I ever made in my life."
Hawley had been the first senator to announce he would object to President-elect Joe Biden's victory, citing baseless claims of mass election fraud. So when the rioters bashed inside, attempting to overturn the election, it was clear who was at fault, Danforth said.
"But for him it wouldn't have happened," Danforth told the Kansas City Star. He made the certification vote "a way to express the view that the election was stolen. He was responsible."
The former senator was far from the only one to lay blame on his former protege. In the span of about five hours on Thursday afternoon, Hawley was denounced by one of his top donors, dropped from a book deal and lambasted by several Missouri Republicans. Calls for him to resign poured in from the editorial boards of Missouri's two major newspapers and students at the law school where he was once taught..."
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Yeah, I'll probably be back. I mostly mean the mental illness of thinking Trump was robbed and that his people were screwed. I very much hope more reasonable conservatives join this thread. I think the left leaners and the right leaners could have really good conversation if we just stuck to facts and avoided sycophantic behavior.
There is a new right wing party here, created like 5 years ago, a spin off from another party. Many opportunistic people joined its ranks and they try to make a lot of noise on forums and social networks. These people insert comments on any newsboard praising their party, and probably they will get more votes in the next election.
However, the party leaders are somehow doomed from the start. They lack any credibility, as there are already suspicions of corruption looming over them. On top of that the party leader has never had any kind of job aside from politics; he has been living from politics since he was like 20 years old, decades living from institutions related to political parties, and in different positions within another party. He founded his new party, but cannot deceive anyone who remembers what he has been doing for the last decades.
So basically those new right wing parties thrive on discontent and benefit from the unstable economy and the crisis, but they lack any real program or political agenda, it is just people who try to shout louder and have their free lunch living out of politics... so I don't think they will be able to get enough votes to rule the country.
This is more worrying:
Pelosi raises prospect of impeaching Trump for second time
House speaker consults military on preventing 'unstable president' from launching nuclear strike
It is reasonable to make Trump go now before he does something that cannot be repaired, something worse that the assault on the US Capitol.
A coup d'état attempted by Trump': America's failed insurrection
Is it true that the reason why far right ideology isn't that popular in Spain like in some other western states is because of the more recent times of living under Franco's rule? I got told people hated life under his government.
I remember hearing something like that when someone was explaining why far right ideology only gained popularity in certain countries in Europe.
So, this is a "Stable Genius"?
When he leaves office then he should be put into a straight jacket.
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