2020 US Presidential Election

Unfortunately, I cannot honestly say that our Generals, who kept our troops in Afghanistan for nearly two decades after 9/11, are competent, or worthy of praise. Apparently, Trump doesn't think so, either, according to reputable sources. When he spoke his mind, and was critical of their performance, rather than gush over them like former presidents have, these military bureaucratic officers sulked and withdrew. I have my own 9/11 stories, and fully supported and appreciated actions by our military to prevent future attacks, and catch those responsible for carrying out acts of terrorism, but keeping our military forces present in in Afghanistan for almost two decades after 9/11, for no good reason, is simply unacceptable.
Remember when Kaepernick kneeled (for reasons that had nothing to do with the military) and it was apparently the most anti-American thing ever? It's really annoying when conservatives use the military as props to show how virtuous they are when it's convenient, only to later take a dump on them when their authoritarian leader does something a million times worse.

I appreciate your anti-war sentiment -- I think that is a very positive aspect of your perspective. But can conservatives be more consistent on the military? Just say you disagree with BLM, Kaepernick was peacefully exercising his first amendment rights, it's BS that he's out of the NFL over a disagreement, etc. Conservatives began cancel culture over this.

Can they please pick one? Trumpism is about power and rubbing hypocrisy in everyone's face -- moving the goal posts when convenient.

By the way, I don't even have strong views of Kaepernick; he's not like my hero. He started a cause and didn't even vote; I don't respect that. But I do have strong views about the BS of him getting kicked out of the league, all because Trump riled up anti-military sentiment. I would think all of the first amendment conservatives who feel so "oppressed" would have strong views on this as well.
 
Remember when Kaepernick kneeled (for reasons that had nothing to do with the military) and it was apparently the most anti-American thing ever? It's really annoying when conservatives use the military as props to show how virtuous they are when it's convenient, only to later take a dump on them when their authoritarian leader does something a million times worse.

I appreciate your anti-war sentiment -- I think that is a very positive aspect of your perspective. But can conservatives be more consistent on the military? Just say you disagree with BLM, Kaepernick was peacefully exercising his first amendment rights, it's BS that he's out of the NFL over a disagreement, etc. Conservatives began cancel culture over this.

Can they please pick one? Trumpism is about power and rubbing hypocrisy in everyone's face -- moving the goal posts when convenient.

By the way, I don't even have strong views of Kaepernick; he's not like my hero. He started a cause and didn't even vote; I don't respect that. But I do have strong views about the BS of him getting kicked out of the league, all because Trump riled up anti-military sentiment. I would think all of the first amendment conservatives who feel so "oppressed" would have strong views on this as well.
Why did you bring up Kaepernick? Well, that is fine with me, but I don't follow football, and have no idea what he did, why he did it, if he did it, or the ramifications of it. I don't care what millionaire movie stars, bands, sports figures, rappers, or any other kinds of celebrities say or do, when it comes to politics. As far as their losing their jobs due to censorship, I have no sympathy for them, as the same thing applies to the rest of us, even more so. I am sure that many people are afraid to even say who they're voting for, in their workplace, if they're not voting Democrat.
 
Who's we? I'm not the US Government circa 1800'-1860's.
The US government is what I mean by "we". I was using shorthand because I thought it was apparent that I wasn't suggesting individuals on this thread were maltreating Native Americans.
 
Why did you bring up Kaepernick? Well, that is fine with me, but I don't follow football, and have no idea what he did, why he did it, if he did it, or the ramifications of it. I don't care what millionaire movie stars, bands, sports figures, rappers, or any other kinds of celebrities say or do, when it comes to politics.
Yes, conservatives do care, considering they voted in a reality TV star moron throwing out baseless conspiracy theories (like the birther movement, Central Park Five) on twitter. And mind you, they chose him over a crowd of politically experienced people within the Republican party. Of course I'm going to compare Trump and Kaepernick. It's pretty much the perfect reactionary contrast available regarding the first amendment and the importance of bowing to the military at all times.

One guy takes a knee and says it has nothing to do with the military. He then proceeds to lose his career. Another shits over gold star families and prisoners of war. Gets promoted to the most powerful position in the world. How do you reconcile it besides just covering our eyes and hope it doesn't get brought up?
 
Yes, conservatives do care, considering they voted in a reality TV star moron throwing out baseless conspiracy theories (like the birther movement, Central Park Five) on twitter. And mind you, they chose him over a crowd of politically experienced people within the Republican party. Of course I'm going to compare Trump and Kaepernick. It's pretty much the perfect reactionary contrast available regarding the first amendment and the importance of bowing to the military at all times.

One guy takes a knee and says it has nothing to do with the military. He then proceeds to lose his career. Another shits over gold star families and prisoners of war. Gets promoted to the most powerful position in the world. How do you reconcile it besides just covering our eyes and hope it doesn't get brought up?
Not all Republicans are "conservatives." Trump was never that conservative, he has to act this way, but in reality, it's only to get votes from the bible belt. I've never cared for Trump's haircut, sense of humor, taste in music (he enjoys Kenny G), conspiracy theories, golf, his glitzy manner, his hotels, former TV show, casinos, etc., but none of this has anything to do with his ability to do the job as president.

Basically, I would have to look up Kaepernick, and learn about him, to understand what you're getting at, but I simply have no interest in the man, or in comparing him to Trump. The "Taking a knee" pose, and losing his career, has nothing to do with Trump, as far as I'm concerned, which makes me even less likely to be interested in his trials and tribulations. He's a very privileged person, talented as he is, but none of these athletes are particularly intelligent, on average. The popularity of sports has gone down, due to the emphasis on BLM, and other political themes, that athletes are now promoting. People want to watch the game, not political statements.

I actually admire Trump, if he pulled off a draft dodge scam, as some accuse him of doing. I don't happen to believe that he did something illegal, as there's no evidence for it other than speculation by his detractors, but if these allegations are true, then it was a very intelligent, and humanistic thing to accomplish, especially during the VietNam conflict. John McCain, when he was a young man, volunteered to bomb North VietNam, a country that never did anything to us. I've never understood why anti-Trump boomers all of a sudden loved McCain, a Republican, when so many of these same left-wing boomers were opposed to what we were doing in Southeast Asia, back then. Boomers loving a bomber, sounds weird. I guess, it's because McCain didn't like Trump, and vice versa, and the old, "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" saying kicks in, for the Democrats. McCain was lucky the VietCong didn't kill him, for what he, and others, did to their country.
 
Basically, I would have to look up Kaepernick, and learn about him, to understand what you're getting at, but I simply have no interest in the man, or in comparing him to Trump. The "Taking a knee" pose, and losing his career, has nothing to do with Trump, as far as I'm concerned, which makes me even less likely to be interested in this man.
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you are misinformed or uninformed on this topic. However, Trumpism definitely has a lot (namely everything) to do with Kaepernick losing his job. Trump turned a peaceful protest (taking a knee!!!!) into a highly politicized topic regarding patriotism and respect for the troops.

https://www.nbcsports.com/bayarea/49ers/trump-anthem-protesters-get-son-b-field

Speaking in Huntsville, AL, Trump told a group of his supporters during a campaign rally, "wouldn't you love to see one of these NFL owners, when someone disrespects our flag to say, 'get that son of a bitch off the field right now. Out. He's fired. He's fired."

On October 8, 2017, Trump sent Mike Pence to a Colts game (on taxpayer money) to stage "walking out" as a political stunt. This was a big thing; I'm surprised that you missed it.

Anyways, the point I was getting at is that an athlete takes a knee for reasons independent of the military and gets blamed for being anti-American. Meanwhile, Trump shits all over gold star families and gets elected to the presidency. The support for kicking Kaepernick out of the league grew when Trump got involved.

It's a dazzling display of hypocrisy, using the troops to virtue signal, fascism, exposing right wingers for calling people snow flakes who reject freedom of speech. I don't know how anyone here could possibly defend it, and again, I'm referring to him losing his job over his political opinions. I am not saying everyone needs to agree with Kaepernick. I'm pretty pro police myself so I un

I have said in the past on this thread that I fully condemn violence from protesters. I still do. But it is a really bad look when Kaepernick can't even put his knee on the ground without fascism forcing him out of his job.

Also, as a heads up, if you look up the Kaepernick stuff into more detail, don't buy the BS that conservatives say about Kaepernick losing his job because he was a crappy football player. There is zero question that he failed to make an NFL roster because of the protest. The Philadelphia Eagles hired 40 year old Josh McCown (from retirement) over Kaepernick, a dude who in 2013, had a great year and carried the 49ers to the Super Bowl.

This topic became important to me after Trump got involved because it was no longer just the nature of capitalism. The president got heavily involved. This is a giant step towards fascism.
 
I understand your argument, and you could be right. We are after all talking hypotheticals here.

Give me your best guess what will happen in/to Ukraine in the next 5 and 10 years.
Honestly, I don't know.

At first, I kinda supported the Revolution (I guess they call it Maidan/Euromaidan?) but now I think it was a *bad* mistake.

It's funny that you guys are having a long chat on slavery but we are all slaves. (Not to mention so many being inaccurate and incorrect about things).

I think it's easy to be misled and duped so I am afraid of what Ukrainians will do. I don't think they should join the West/EU or Russia. There is no choice. Just like most elections.
 
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you are misinformed or uninformed on this topic. However, Trumpism definitely has a lot (namely everything) to do with Kaepernick losing his job. Trump turned a peaceful protest (taking a knee!!!!) into a highly politicized topic regarding patriotism and respect for the troops.

https://www.nbcsports.com/bayarea/49ers/trump-anthem-protesters-get-son-b-field

Speaking in Huntsville, AL, Trump told a group of his supporters during a campaign rally, "wouldn't you love to see one of these NFL owners, when someone disrespects our flag to say, 'get that son of a bitch off the field right now. Out. He's fired. He's fired."

On October 8, 2017, Trump sent Mike Pence to a Colts game (on taxpayer money) to stage "walking out" as a political stunt. This was a big thing; I'm surprised that you missed it.

Anyways, the point I was getting at is that an athlete takes a knee for reasons independent of the military and gets blamed for being anti-American. Meanwhile, Trump shits all over gold star families and gets elected to the presidency. The support for kicking Kaepernick out of the league grew when Trump got involved.

It's a dazzling display of hypocrisy, using the troops to virtue signal, fascism, exposing right wingers for calling people snow flakes who reject freedom of speech. I don't know how anyone here could possibly defend it, and again, I'm referring to him losing his job over his political opinions. I am not saying everyone needs to agree with Kaepernick. I'm pretty pro police myself so I un

I have said in the past on this thread that I fully condemn violence from protesters. I still do. But it is a really bad look when Kaepernick can't even put his knee on the ground without fascism forcing him out of his job.

Also, as a heads up, if you look up the Kaepernick stuff into more detail, don't buy the BS that conservatives say about Kaepernick losing his job because he was a crappy football player. There is zero question that he failed to make an NFL roster because of the protest. The Philadelphia Eagles hired 40 year old Josh McCown (from retirement) over Kaepernick, a dude who in 2013, had a great year and carried the 49ers to the Super Bowl.

This topic became important to me after Trump got involved because it was no longer just the nature of capitalism. The president got heavily involved. This is a giant step towards fascism.
You are the one who is misinformed. I was mostly ignoring this topic but I can notice that you are misinformed or lying.

Since this stupid kneeling thing was in the news so much I read about it. When Kaepernick was playing, he lost his job. He eventually went down to third or 4th string just before he was out of football. Recently, he was given a tryout by several teams but he pissed off the ownership/organization of those teams with his demands. His main priority is politics and creating a diversion or being a political spectacle.

As for Trump, meh. Biden has mostly ignored the violence of the protesters and now there's a hash tag, #bidenriots?

There's a lot of scandal and controversy with him so you have two parties/candidates with plenty of dirt. That's by design? Probably. Yet, you hypocritical liberals only talk about one of them. So pathetic. :rolleyes: Tsk tsk.
 
Yes, conservatives do care, considering they voted in a reality TV star moron throwing out baseless conspiracy theories (like the birther movement, Central Park Five) on twitter. And mind you, they chose him over a crowd of politically experienced people within the Republican party. Of course I'm going to compare Trump and Kaepernick. It's pretty much the perfect reactionary contrast available regarding the first amendment and the importance of bowing to the military at all times.

One guy takes a knee and says it has nothing to do with the military. He then proceeds to lose his career. Another shits over gold star families and prisoners of war. Gets promoted to the most powerful position in the world. How do you reconcile it besides just covering our eyes and hope it doesn't get brought up?
You can bring it up, I'm not "covering my eyes", I simply don't care about somebody who is making millions of dollars for playing a game, who screwed up. If most people did the nonsensical "take a knee", while on the job in front of the owners, they'd be fired. This guy apparently did it in front of the whole country. He is an idiot, and no more persecuted than anybody else, Republican or Democrat, liberal or conservative.

There is no free speech at a place of employment. You are there to work, not make political statements. He deserved to be fired, just as anybody else, in the real world would be. If this moron can't understand that, then he deserves to lose his multi-million dollar career. He can now do his political moralizing from the basement, like Biden.
 
I was thinking about this in the shower, so I'm not sure if this is a coherent idea or just a "shower thought" but I wonder if the BLM protests won't turn out effective because it's aimed at adults. And, by the time you are adult, if you don't already see things from the point of view of different races, sexes, nationalities, etc., it's really hard to start doing it.

I think protests *do* have the ability to energize and mobilize, but I'm not sure they can change hearts and minds because people are able to go to incredibly lengths to rationalize mistreatment and keep the status quo if it suits them.

So, I started thinking (it was a long shower) about how realistic ways to improve justice and equality for all. I think it starts with the arts: fiction, movies, music, visual arts, etc and it starts at a young age.

I remember a literature professor in college telling us that one of the reasons literature is so important is because it's one way we learn empathy. Having to view the world through different characters with different genders, nationalities, races and backgrounds makes us more empathetic. We see the world as they do while we read their story and we care about it.

In my generation, Gen X, we didn't have many heroes that were not white men or boys but it was just starting to change. We had Ripley from the Alien franchise and she was a total badass (one of my favorite Hollywood stories is that the only reason Sigourney Weaver got the part is that she didn't realize it was supposed to be a male lead when she auditioned) and the Cosby Show, which showed a successful black family.

Anyway, I believe this is the reason late Gen X and younger are much less prejudice on the whole and it boils down to learned empathy from having more diverse representation.

I think this is related to tinnitus as well. People with no or mild tinnitus can't imagine how disabling it can be because they have trouble putting themselves in the frame of mind of people dealing with things they can't relate to. It's one reason why people with invisible disabilities are dismissed and told to "toughen" up.

In the US, we have a national crisis of a lack of empathy but hopefully the younger generations will save us -- if they show up to vote.
 
Then why mention it? Would it be intellectual for me to share a story of Hitler giving a Jew a glass of water? Or would it just be nonsense? At some point, order of magnitude has to supersede contrarianism.
Why not mention it? Details are important. When African tribes were themselves involved in the slave trade and where slaves may have had a worse lot than in the US:

"Africans played a direct role in the slave trade, selling their captives or prisoners of war to European buyers. The prisoners and captives who were sold were usually from neighbouring or enemy ethnic groups. These captive slaves were considered "other", not part of the people of the ethnic group or "tribe"; African kings held no particular loyalty to them. Sometimes criminals would be sold so that they could no longer commit crimes in that area"

Some people think "White people need reeducating" (totally racist thing to say), but I accept that some people make such general and sweeping generalisations and that it just adds to the discussion.

We can't change the past, but we can openly discuss it.
 
Ah, that's a good one @just1morething ;) Your question indicates that I would have visited the Red Light District at least once. No, not every Dutch person has visited the District, just as much as that not every American has seen the Capitol building up close.
La da da da da, la da da da da. It's not unusual for @Christiaan to lie a little bit, it's not unusual for @Christiaan to hate Trump a little bit. And if he does a hate a a Trump a little bi i it, it's not unusual, it happens every day, no matter what you say........Meooooow...joke :D

 
The Numbers Are In:

• 1.37 million jobs created in August

• Unemployment rate drops from 10.2% to 8.4%

Unemployment rate during the Obama/Biden administration in August 2012: 8.1% (no pandemic).
 
I was thinking about this in the shower, so I'm not sure if this is a coherent idea or just a "shower thought" but I wonder if the BLM protests won't turn out effective because it's aimed at adults. And, by the time you are adult, if you don't already see things from the point of view of different races, sexes, nationalities, etc., it's really hard to start doing it.

I think protests *do* have the ability to energize and mobilize, but I'm not sure they can change hearts and minds because people are able to go to incredibly lengths to rationalize mistreatment and keep the status quo if it suits them.

So, I started thinking (it was a long shower) about how realistic ways to improve justice and equality for all. I think it starts with the arts: fiction, movies, music, visual arts, etc and it starts at a young age.

I remember a literature professor in college telling us that one of the reasons literature is so important is because it's one way we learn empathy. Having to view the world through different characters with different genders, nationalities, races and backgrounds makes us more empathetic. We see the world as they do while we read their story and we care about it.

In my generation, Gen X, we didn't have many heroes that were not white men or boys but it was just starting to change. We had Ripley from the Alien franchise and she was a total badass (one of my favorite Hollywood stories is that the only reason Sigourney Weaver got the part is that she didn't realize it was supposed to be a male lead when she auditioned) and the Cosby Show, which showed a successful black family.

Anyway, I believe this is the reason late Gen X and younger are much less prejudice on the whole and it boils down to learned empathy from having more diverse representation.

I think this is related to tinnitus as well. People with no or mild tinnitus can't imagine how disabling it can be because they have trouble putting themselves in the frame of mind of people dealing with things they can't relate to. It's one reason why people with invisible disabilities are dismissed and told to "toughen" up.

In the US, we have a national crisis of a lack of empathy but hopefully the younger generations will save us -- if they show up to vote.
I often wonder (and this has been studied) how much of it is just people of different political viewpoints having different neural makeups and inclinations. Sort of like which regions in the brain are the most susceptible to straw men shaping our world views. Empathy versus fear centers as the dominant feature.

It astonishes me how uncommon it is for people's core political positions to change. This includes myself as well. Over the years, I have forced myself to listen to so many viewpoints, and yet it always sort of ends up roughly back to the same spot. At one point, I listened to far more conservative pundits than liberal. While I did learn some things, I don't know that I would say my very basic worldviews changed a whole lot.

In this thread, how many people have changed their minds? I don't know, but it certainly requires a rare combination of interest and intelligence to do so.

I simply can't get over Trumpism. I am very open-minded to intellectual discussions, but Trumpism is just so obviously horrific to me.
 
In the US, we have a national crisis of a lack of empathy
Taking your last point first, I would say that the US is one of the most empathetic nations on the planet.

The US takes in more immigrants per year than any other country, it allows protests for everything from gay rights to black rights to abortion rights, it allows every religion under the sun and so on.

Of course we could argue that the US gets involved in too many wars that are none of its business and that kill lots of innocent citizens, but then so do many other countries for geopolitical reasons.

I realise though that you are talking more about the empathy of individuals, which I will address below, sort of.
I was thinking about this in the shower, so I'm not sure if this is a coherent idea or just a "shower thought" but I wonder if the BLM protests won't turn out effective because it's aimed at adults. And, by the time you are adult, if you don't already see things from the point of view of different races, sexes, nationalities, etc., it's really hard to start doing it.

I think protests *do* have the ability to energize and mobilize, but I'm not sure they can change hearts and minds because people are able to go to incredibly lengths to rationalize mistreatment and keep the status quo if it suits them.

So, I started thinking (it was a long shower) about how realistic ways to improve justice and equality for all. I think it starts with the arts: fiction, movies, music, visual arts, etc and it starts at a young age.

I remember a literature professor in college telling us that one of the reasons literature is so important is because it's one way we learn empathy. Having to view the world through different characters with different genders, nationalities, races and backgrounds makes us more empathetic. We see the world as they do while we read their story and we care about it.

In my generation, Gen X, we didn't have many heroes that were not white men or boys but it was just starting to change. We had Ripley from the Alien franchise and she was a total badass (one of my favorite Hollywood stories is that the only reason Sigourney Weaver got the part is that she didn't realize it was supposed to be a male lead when she auditioned) and the Cosby Show, which showed a successful black family.

Anyway, I believe this is the reason late Gen X and younger are much less prejudice on the whole and it boils down to learned empathy from having more diverse representation.

I think this is related to tinnitus as well. People with no or mild tinnitus can't imagine how disabling it can be because they have trouble putting themselves in the frame of mind of people dealing with things they can't relate to. It's one reason why people with invisible disabilities are dismissed and told to "toughen" up.

In the US, we have a national crisis of a lack of empathy but hopefully the younger generations will save us -- if they show up to vote.
First, I would question whether empathy for others is always a good thing. A lack of empathy for others/outsiders is sometimes the glue that helps a society keep together and thrive, ie help those like ourselves and not outsiders (whether it be the colour of one's skin, religious beliefs, political beliefs and so on). Take Japan for example where the society is linguistically, ethnically and culturally homogeneous, ie around 98% of the people are ethnically Japanese (although there are three minorities included in that). It has low immigration and places little importance on trying to assimilate foreigners into its society, the same goes for minorities. One could argue that due to this, or partly due to this, Japan is doing rather well, eg economic powerhouse, very long life expectancy, very low levels of violent crime, religion is dominated by Shintoism and Buddhism, democratic political system* and so on. Japan is very nationalistic, and people follow a pretty strict social code. Harmony and social obedience are highly valued. Interestingly though, there is quite a bit of corruption.

In contrast, it could be argued, the US is more and more being torn apart by multiple narratives from opposing forces that have little empathy for each other. Even though the US has done very very well in many areas, which it could be argued is due to its diversity, it is dealing with massive social problems, relatively poor life expectancy, massive crime rates and a total lack of harmony.

* Not sure about how much having a democratic political system makes a difference, but I included it anyway. South Korea could be compared to Japan and so could North Korea, but the latter is doing worse off in many ways using the criteria above.

Second, I feel that most people have an inbuilt 'stranger danger' mechanism that automatically sways them to people similar to themselves, eg conservatives will naturally search out other conservatives, liberals the same, gay people the same, heterosexuals the same, people of different colours the same, people with the same interests and so on. In contrast, some people are born more empathetic to outsiders than others. For example, take me (not that I consider myself the poster boy for empathy), living half my adult life abroad in a country that for a long time has been the enemy of my own, marrying a foreign citizen, learning the country's language, understanding the mentality and so on. I have empathy for these people and for this country in some ways, ie I can see where these people are coming from and how they look at life (this is a very big generalisation of course as there are many points of view among people). But it doesn't mean that I agree with much of what goes on here. But, yes, I have empathy. One that is naturally built in, one that swayed me to go out and see how others live and study anthropology and people and society and culture.

How many people who are white have many or any black friends and vice versa? How many heterosexuals have many or any gay friends and vice versa? How many conservatives have close liberal friends and vice versa? How many close foreign friends do you (not you FGG in particular) have? How many poor people have rich friends and vice versa? As an educated guess, I would say not many to all of the above in relation to most people. Am I wrong?

People, in general, find comfort in similarity, so emphathy for outsiders is not something of a high priority for many. Am I wrong?

Third, although at the beginning I said that I consider the US to be one of the most empathetic countries on the planet, that does not mean everybody within the country is very empathetic. I feel that the nation state US, as a world power, is trying to lead the way and trying to force its own vision of what society should be onto others.

Fourth, can people be made more empathetic? Yes, at least some people, but probably not all. Like you stated films and books and other media etc can definitely sway people's outlooks. You could call it propaganda I suppose, and the use of propaganda is well known to work. And like you said, if you want to make people more empathetic then the earlier in life they start to view other people from their (the other people's perspective) the better.

Will the BLM movement change anything? I'm not so sure. It may cause more divison than actually bring people together. I don't know enough about the movement to judge how well it is doing at achieving its perceived goals. Whatever, something has to happen in the US as at present things are getting to the point where a civil war could become a not so far-fetched possibility.
 
I often wonder (and this has been studied) how much of it is just people of different political viewpoints having different neural makeups and inclinations. Sort of like which regions in the brain are the most susceptible to straw men shaping our world views. Empathy versus fear centers as the dominant feature.

It astonishes me how uncommon it is for people's core political positions to change. This includes myself as well. Over the years, I have forced myself to listen to so many viewpoints, and yet it always sort of ends up roughly back to the same spot. At one point, I listened to far more conservative pundits than liberal. While I did learn some things, I don't know that I would say my very basic worldviews changed a whole lot.

In this thread, how many people have changed their minds? I don't know, but it certainly requires a rare combination of interest and intelligence to do so.

I simply can't get over Trumpism. I am very open-minded to intellectual discussions, but Trumpism is just so obviously horrific to me.
Trumpism. I don't even know where to begin. Trump is no more, or less, than an average president, in the larger scheme of things. The Democrats have now offered us a candidate that is less likable, and less likely to win, than their last one. The Democrats have only insulted, and alienated, Trump voters, while Trump has invited Democrats to switch. Look to the Democratic leadership, and their candidates, if you want to know why Donald Trump will win, in November, and you will have the answer, as to why the Biden & Harris team, has already lost. They would have been better off with Bernie Sanders, at least he can form a coherent sentence, knows where he stands, and is willing to go out and campaign. They have learned nothing, in the past four years.
 
Trumpism. I don't even know where to begin. Trump is no more, or less, than an average president, in the larger scheme of things. The Democrats have now offered us a candidate that is less likable, and less likely to win, than their last one. The Democrats have only insulted, and alienated, Trump voters, while Trump has invited Democrats to switch. Look to the Democratic leadership, and their candidates, if you want to know why Donald Trump will win, in November, and you will have the answer, as to why the Biden & Harris team, has already lost. They would have been better off with Bernie Sanders, at least he can form a coherent sentence, knows where he stands, and is willing to go out and campaign. They have learned nothing, in the past four years.
We will have to agree to disagree on the dangers of Trump. Biden was far from my first pick.
 
They would have been better off with Bernie Sanders, at least he can form a coherent sentence,
I'm not going to lie and say that Biden's stutter - which isn't necessarily indicative of mental/intellectual impairment, I say that as someone with a stutter - isn't distracting. But I find it strange that you criticize Biden for it while Trump's speech is hardly what I'd call coherent. Have you seen the Axios interview? Or the Chris Wallace interview? He's far from coherent.

(Or, better yet, take a look at the recent speech in which he urges his supporters to commit voter fraud by voting for him twice.)
 
I'm not going to lie and say that Biden's stutter - which isn't necessarily indicative of mental/intellectual impairment, I say that as someone with a stutter - isn't distracting. But I find it strange that you criticize Biden for it while Trump's speech is hardly what I'd call coherent. Have you seen the Axios interview? Or the Chris Wallace interview? He's far from coherent.

(Or, better yet, take a look at the recent speech in which he urges his supporters to commit voter fraud by voting for him twice.)
Whether Trump is more or less coherent than Biden is debatable, but the fact is, he's looking more and more like he's going to win.

Trump is not the stupid, lying idiot that the Democrats believe he is. He throws them curve balls, and they fall for it, every time. Rather than waste their time criticizing his every utterance, trying to impeach him, and alienating his voters, they should have simply found a candidate that could beat him in 2020. They were suckered, and played right into his hands. The nomination of a man like Biden, who has been sitting in his basement for practically the entire time, during the most important election of recent history, is probably enough to give Trump a win, in November. The nomination of a VP candidate that is about as unlikable as Hillary, and with less experience, was their second major mistake. If they lose, they have nobody to blame, but themselves. Biden, and his pathetic race-based campaign. can go to hell. I voted for Hillary in 2016, despite the fact that I did not like her, but this time, it's different. I'm voting for Trump in 2020.
 
I was thinking about this in the shower, so I'm not sure if this is a coherent idea or just a "shower thought" but I wonder if the BLM protests won't turn out effective because it's aimed at adults. And, by the time you are adult, if you don't already see things from the point of view of different races, sexes, nationalities, etc., it's really hard to start doing it.

I think protests *do* have the ability to energize and mobilize, but I'm not sure they can change hearts and minds because people are able to go to incredibly lengths to rationalize mistreatment and keep the status quo if it suits them.

So, I started thinking (it was a long shower) about how realistic ways to improve justice and equality for all. I think it starts with the arts: fiction, movies, music, visual arts, etc and it starts at a young age.

I remember a literature professor in college telling us that one of the reasons literature is so important is because it's one way we learn empathy. Having to view the world through different characters with different genders, nationalities, races and backgrounds makes us more empathetic. We see the world as they do while we read their story and we care about it.

In my generation, Gen X, we didn't have many heroes that were not white men or boys but it was just starting to change. We had Ripley from the Alien franchise and she was a total badass (one of my favorite Hollywood stories is that the only reason Sigourney Weaver got the part is that she didn't realize it was supposed to be a male lead when she auditioned) and the Cosby Show, which showed a successful black family.

Anyway, I believe this is the reason late Gen X and younger are much less prejudice on the whole and it boils down to learned empathy from having more diverse representation.

I think this is related to tinnitus as well. People with no or mild tinnitus can't imagine how disabling it can be because they have trouble putting themselves in the frame of mind of people dealing with things they can't relate to. It's one reason why people with invisible disabilities are dismissed and told to "toughen" up.

In the US, we have a national crisis of a lack of empathy but hopefully the younger generations will save us -- if they show up to vote.
I also don't believe that the Black Lives Matter movement protests will change anything either. For starters the movement is aimed at only black people where they forget about racial attacks that have been happening with other races and only focus on black issues only which I think is a negative.

I've seen people getting gaslighted for talking about racial attacks that have been happening to other races by black people and saying "nOw iS NoT tHE tImE tO bE TaLKiNG aBOuT tHEsE iSsUEs" and also saying "why are you racist to black people" when they clearly weren't being racist at all and were just letting others know about these racist attacks that have been happening to other races by black people.

Like come on, we should be focusing on all racial attacks that have been happening to others in the community and not just focusing on black lives and police brutality.

A better way to unite all races is to have an Anti-Racist Movement which supports all races who have suffered from racial attacks, oppression, police brutality etc. I think with an Anti-Racist Movement more people will support this over Black Lives Matter movement.
 
Whether Trump is more or less coherent than Biden is debatable, but the fact is, he's looking more and more like he's going to win.

Trump is not the stupid, lying idiot that the Democrats believe he is. He throws them curve balls, and they fall for it, every time. Rather than waste their time criticizing his every utterance, trying to impeach him, and alienating his voters, they should have simply found a candidate that could beat him in 2020. They were suckered, and played right into his hands. The nomination of a man like Biden, who has been sitting in his basement for practically the entire time, during the most important election of recent history, is probably enough to give Trump a win, in November. The nomination of a VP candidate that is about as unlikable as Hillary, and with less experience, was their second major mistake. If they lose, they have nobody to blame, but themselves. Biden, and his pathetic race-based campaign. can go to hell. I voted for Hillary in 2016, despite the fact that I did not like her, but this time, it's different. I'm voting for Trump in 2020.
If Trump does get in, can you give me a checklist of things you want him to achieve in his second term?

What do you think of his love for Putin? Do you feel he is being played by him? Do you think that Trump's seeming disregard for his own intelligence services puts the US in dangerous waters?

You may have addressed these earlier in the thread, but I've not been reading every post, so may have missed it.
 
he's looking more and more like he's going to win.
Because he's actively cheating? And asking his supporters to vote twice?
trying to impeach him, and alienating his voters
They shouldn't try to impeach someone for offenses that are very well impeachable? And while I won't deny that some of the alienation comes from the left, many of Trump's supporters actively create conflict. Many don't even have the common decency to wear a mask, and not properly even if they do wear one.
they should have simply found a candidate that could beat him in 2020
Fair enough.
Biden, and his pathetic race-based campaign.
How is Trump's campaign not race based? He's been thriving on thinly veiled white supremacy.
 
I also don't believe that the Black Lives Matter movement protests will change anything either. For starters the movement is aimed at only black people where they forget about racial attacks that have been happening with other races and only focus on black issues only which I think is a negative.

I've seen people getting gaslighted for talking about racial attacks that have been happening to other races by black people and saying "nOw iS NoT tHE tImE tO bE TaLKiNG aBOuT tHEsE iSsUEs" and also saying "why are you racist to black people" when they clearly weren't being racist at all and were just letting others know about these racist attacks that have been happening to other races by black people.

Like come on, we should be focusing on all racial attacks that have been happening to others in the community and not just focusing on black lives and police brutality.

A better way to unite all races is to have an Anti-Racist Movement which supports all races who have suffered from racial attacks, oppression, police brutality etc. I think with an Anti-Racist Movement more people will support this over Black Lives Matter movement.
So you're starting to clue in?

About time for someone...

It's pointless to discuss this on here since it's so one-sided with indoctrinated liberals who are so in denial... I am not even American but I notice all these violent protests going on, BLM and Antifa committing violence everyday, Portland, Seattle, Rochester, on and on.

But, "nothing to see here, folks...." :rolleyes: :sleep:

"Iz awl Twump's fault, y'know!"
 
I also don't believe that the Black Lives Matter movement protests will change anything either. For starters the movement is aimed at only black people where they forget about racial attacks that have been happening with other races and only focus on black issues only which I think is a negative.

I've seen people getting gaslighted for talking about racial attacks that have been happening to other races by black people and saying "nOw iS NoT tHE tImE tO bE TaLKiNG aBOuT tHEsE iSsUEs" and also saying "why are you racist to black people" when they clearly weren't being racist at all and were just letting others know about these racist attacks that have been happening to other races by black people.

Like come on, we should be focusing on all racial attacks that have been happening to others in the community and not just focusing on black lives and police brutality.

A better way to unite all races is to have an Anti-Racist Movement which supports all races who have suffered from racial attacks, oppression, police brutality etc. I think with an Anti-Racist Movement more people will support this over Black Lives Matter movement.
BLM is not about "racial attacks", it's specific to police brutality and miscarried justice in our system disproportionately affecting the black community.

Hate crime is universally illegal in the US no matter who is carrying it out but police have abused "qualified immunity" and often bear no professional consequence even for excessive use of force.
 
Taking your last point first, I would say that the US is one of the most empathetic nations on the planet.

The US takes in more immigrants per year than any other country, it allows protests for everything from gay rights to black rights to abortion rights, it allows every religion under the sun and so on.

Of course we could argue that the US gets involved in too many wars that are none of its business and that kill lots of innocent citizens, but then so do many other countries for geopolitical reasons.

I realise though that you are talking more about the empathy of individuals, which I will address below, sort of.

First, I would question whether empathy for others is always a good thing. A lack of empathy for others/outsiders is sometimes the glue that helps a society keep together and thrive, ie help those like ourselves and not outsiders (whether it be the colour of one's skin, religious beliefs, political beliefs and so on). Take Japan for example where the society is linguistically, ethnically and culturally homogeneous, ie around 98% of the people are ethnically Japanese (although there are three minorities included in that). It has low immigration and places little importance on trying to assimilate foreigners into its society, the same goes for minorities. One could argue that due to this, or partly due to this, Japan is doing rather well, eg economic powerhouse, very long life expectancy, very low levels of violent crime, religion is dominated by Shintoism and Buddhism, democratic political system* and so on. Japan is very nationalistic, and people follow a pretty strict social code. Harmony and social obedience are highly valued. Interestingly though, there is quite a bit of corruption.

In contrast, it could be argued, the US is more and more being torn apart by multiple narratives from opposing forces that have little empathy for each other. Even though the US has done very very well in many areas, which it could be argued is due to its diversity, it is dealing with massive social problems, relatively poor life expectancy, massive crime rates and a total lack of harmony.

* Not sure about how much having a democratic political system makes a difference, but I included it anyway. South Korea could be compared to Japan and so could North Korea, but the latter is doing worse off in many ways using the criteria above.

Second, I feel that most people have an inbuilt 'stranger danger' mechanism that automatically sways them to people similar to themselves, eg conservatives will naturally search out other conservatives, liberals the same, gay people the same, heterosexuals the same, people of different colours the same, people with the same interests and so on. In contrast, some people are born more empathetic to outsiders than others. For example, take me (not that I consider myself the poster boy for empathy), living half my adult life abroad in a country that for a long time has been the enemy of my own, marrying a foreign citizen, learning the country's language, understanding the mentality and so on. I have empathy for these people and for this country in some ways, ie I can see where these people are coming from and how they look at life (this is a very big generalisation of course as there are many points of view among people). But it doesn't mean that I agree with much of what goes on here. But, yes, I have empathy. One that is naturally built in, one that swayed me to go out and see how others live and study anthropology and people and society and culture.

How many people who are white have many or any black friends and vice versa? How many heterosexuals have many or any gay friends and vice versa? How many conservatives have close liberal friends and vice versa? How many close foreign friends do you (not you FGG in particular) have? How many poor people have rich friends and vice versa? As an educated guess, I would say not many to all of the above in relation to most people. Am I wrong?

People, in general, find comfort in similarity, so emphathy for outsiders is not something of a high priority for many. Am I wrong?

Third, although at the beginning I said that I consider the US to be one of the most empathetic countries on the planet, that does not mean everybody within the country is very empathetic. I feel that the nation state US, as a world power, is trying to lead the way and trying to force its own vision of what society should be onto others.

Fourth, can people be made more empathetic? Yes, at least some people, but probably not all. Like you stated films and books and other media etc can definitely sway people's outlooks. You could call it propaganda I suppose, and the use of propaganda is well known to work. And like you said, if you want to make people more empathetic then the earlier in life they start to view other people from their (the other people's perspective) the better.

Will the BLM movement change anything? I'm not so sure. It may cause more divison than actually bring people together. I don't know enough about the movement to judge how well it is doing at achieving its perceived goals. Whatever, something has to happen in the US as at present things are getting to the point where a civil war could become a not so far-fetched possibility.
I will agree that people often have an innate tribalism that causes them to want to like people themselves more without any outside information but I don't think educating against that is "propaganda" any more than any of the moral lessons we instill in children are. Even teaching children about cultural traditions or public behavior is, I suppose "propaganda" through that lens. I have heard Mr. Rogers called "propaganda" before for teaching children to be good neighbors. I guess "right from wrong" lessons are picked and chosen by parents and society at large and is all "propaganda" in that sense but I would personally argue empathy is the most important to being a good person.

I would also argue against your point that the US takes in the most immigrants because it is "empathetic" we depend on immigrant labor for both unskilled and skilled labor. And illegal immigrants are exploited in many industries (esp migrant farming and meat processing). Trump himself exploited cheap illegal Polish labor to build Trump Tower.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/27/...legal-immigrant-workers-union-settlement.html

From the article:

"In 1998, Wojciech Kozak described to The New York Times the backbreaking labor on the job.

"We worked in horrid, terrible conditions," Mr. Kozak said. "We were frightened illegal immigrants and did not know enough about our rights."

Making illegals afraid is a good way to exploit them.

We are not an empathetic nation, we have some very troubled things from our past: Japanese internment camps, Tuskegee Syphilis trials, the Native American trail of tears just to name a few. Freedom of speech and religion are in our constitution, it has nothing to do with the "empathy" of our government since.

As far as your assessment that monocultures thrive more, it is I suppose easier to not have to deal with racial conflict if there are no different races to conflict but this doesn't apply to the US as it has always been a melting pot (and has benefited from that in terms of culture, the arts, and even scientific advancement), and the only way to change that would be what the Chinese are doing to the Muslims (ie committing war crimes and atrocities), so even if you would wish the US had only one national identity, it never had that. We were a nation of immigrants from the inception.

Black, Asian and Hispanic Americans are just as "American" as White Americans (though it can perhaps be argued that perhaps all these groups have less claim on what being American should be than Native Americans if a monoculture should be argued for it should be their culture)
Non-Christian Americans are just as "American" as Christian Americans.
Gay Americans are just as "American" as Straight Americans.

To suggest otherwise, is actually very un-American.
 
BLM is not about "racial attacks", it's specific to police brutality and miscarried justice in our system disproportionately affecting the black community.

Hate crime is universally illegal in the US no matter who is carrying it out but police have abused "qualified immunity" and often bear no professional consequence even for excessive use of force.
You can thank the police unions, the other unions which all support them, and politicians for the "qualified immunity" of cops.
 
Because he's actively cheating? And asking his supporters to vote twice?
That was just to test the system. He has no need to cheat, anyway, he's probably going to win by a landslide.
They shouldn't try to impeach someone for offenses that are very well impeachable? And while I won't deny that some of the alienation comes from the left, many of Trump's supporters actively create conflict. Many don't even have the common decency to wear a mask, and not properly even if they do wear one.
The supporters of Trump are far less likely to create conflict. As far as masks, there are people from both camps who refuse to wear them, including Nancy Pelosi, and many of the demonstrators and rioters who are spreading it by screaming in people's faces, invading restaurants, and in other ways.
How is Trump's campaign not race based? He's been thriving on thinly veiled white supremacy.
That statement is ridiculous. He is a New Yorker, and has people of many backgrounds working for him, which a white supremacist would not. He is not the one who said, "If you have a problem figuring out whether you're for me or Trump, then you ain't black." I believe that I have already posted a list of racists and legislation, regarding the history of the Democratic Party, including known segregationists that Joe Biden has worked for, and/or supported, in the past.
 
I will agree that people often have an innate tribalism that causes them to want to like people themselves more without any outside information but I don't think educating against that is "propaganda" any more than any of the moral lessons we instill in children are. Even teaching children about cultural traditions or public behavior is, I suppose "propaganda" through that lens. I have heard Mr. Rogers called "propaganda" before for teaching children to be good neighbors. I guess "right from wrong" lessons are picked and chosen by parents and society at large and is all "propaganda" in that sense but I would personally argue empathy is the most important to being a good person.

I would also argue against your point that the US takes in the most immigrants because it is "empathetic" we depend on immigrant labor for both unskilled and skilled labor. And illegal immigrants are exploited in many industries (esp migrant farming and meat processing). Trump himself exploited cheap illegal Polish labor to build Trump Tower.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/27/...legal-immigrant-workers-union-settlement.html

From the article:

"In 1998, Wojciech Kozak described to The New York Times the backbreaking labor on the job.

"We worked in horrid, terrible conditions," Mr. Kozak said. "We were frightened illegal immigrants and did not know enough about our rights."

Making illegals afraid is a good way to exploit them.

We are not an empathetic nation, we have some very troubled things from our past: Japanese internment camps, Tuskegee Syphilis trials, the Native American trail of tears just to name a few. Freedom of speech and religion are in our constitution, it has nothing to do with the "empathy" of our government since.

As far as your assessment that monocultures thrive more, it is I suppose easier to not have to deal with racial conflict if there are no different races to conflict but this doesn't apply to the US as it has always been a melting pot (and has benefited from that in terms of culture, the arts, and even scientific advancement), and the only way to change that would be what the Chinese are doing to the Muslims (ie committing war crimes and atrocities), so even if you would wish the US had only one national identity, it never had that. We were a nation of immigrants from the inception.

Black, Asian and Hispanic Americans are just as "American" as White Americans (though it can perhaps be argued that perhaps all these groups have less claim on what being American should be than Native Americans if a monoculture should be argued for it should be their culture)
Non-Christian Americans are just as "American" as Christian Americans.
Gay Americans are just as "American" as Straight Americans.

To suggest otherwise, is actually very un-American.
Good post. Something I want to add as an outside observer - I struggle to see how a nation that does not provide universal healthcare for its citizens can be described as one of the most empathetic.
 
This was a good quote/tweet from Marianne Williamson today:

"Some on the right act as tho America has never done anything wrong & some on the left act as tho America has never done anything right. But they're both wrong. It's seeing that our history is a combination of the 2 that gives us the insight needed to fundamentally course-correct."
 

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