Agnostics “R” Us...

[Adaś]

Since when did supporting the poor become an extreme position in the Christian faith??

My guess is that since prayer has become accepted alternative to physical help/support. It is far easier to do, takes little time, no need to spend money or give away your goods, brings instant complacency you did something good for others.

 

[FGG]

My guess is that since prayer has become accepted alternative to physical help/support. It is far easier to do, takes little time, no need to spend money or give away your goods, brings instant complacency you did something good for others.

"Thoughts and prayers" are so popular because it's literally the least you can do sometimes.

 

[Jazzer]

I always send my thoughts and my best wishes which are genuinely heart felt.

I do not send prayers.

I am not aware that there is anybody to pray to.

 

[Mister Muso]

I'm an atheist and I'm genuinely confused by the above quote. Since when did supporting the poor become an extreme position in the Christian faith?? Jesus was incredibly compassionate towards the poor - it was a huge part of his teachings. What happened to 'it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God'?

Sometimes it seems like religion, which for all its faults was intended as a guide for being a good person, has now been co-opted by certain groups to preach entirely the opposite of its original message.

Nothing against you, Mister Muso - I know this isn't your position and I think that you're being a 'true' Christian.

I agree with you, care for the poor should be a vital part of any religion. And for most Christians I've ever known, it is. There just seems to be a disconnect when religion mixes with politics, especially in the US. I'm in the UK and we are beginning to see signs of it here too.

 

[Mister Muso]

'Oh please......'

My thoughts exactly, every time I open up this thread...

 

[Adaś]

I agree with you, care for the poor should be a vital part of any religion. And for most Christians I've ever known, it is.

This is great. Unfortunately in my case most of the Christians (Catholic) I know only care about themselves and their families, go every Sunday to the church trying to do all the sacraments. Definitely not thinking about the poor, or anything bad that happens around the world. I am not saying that they are bad people though, just maybe not very interested in the problems beyond their own lives.

 

[Mister Muso]

Unfortunately in my case most of the Christians (Catholic) I know only care about themselves and their families

Interesting. Especially since the worldwide Catholic church is actually the world's biggest charitable organisation. Maybe some of the people you know are more involved in helping their fellow man behind-the-scenes than you think. I guess you can find a variety of differing examples of commitment amongst people wherever you look.

 

[Adaś]

Interesting. Especially since the worldwide Catholic church is actually the world's biggest charitable organisation.

I know that. It is good that Catholic church tries to follow the teachings of Jesus, as it is something that it should do in the first place. But if you look at the numbers, 2.382 billion of Christians, you realize that those who are actively involved in helping others is just a tiny fraction of all adherents.

In the same time you don't need to be religious to help others. There are many secular organizations and charities that I am pretty sure they do as much or even more than Catholic church, but without promoting (enforcing) the religion.

 

[Elmer B Fuddled]

Them Catholics have to hide themselves in some of the most corrupt religion on the planet. Bunch of walking paedophiles.

 

[Henry Orlando FL]

Them Catholics have to hide themselves in some of the most corrupt religion on the planet. Bunch of walking paedophiles.

Well, I figure you really don't think all Catholic clerics are corrupt and pedophiles.

Surely you know that many if not most Catholics are good people doing the best they can to live a decent life who have had the dice rolled to have them turn out as Catholics much like the Buddhists in Thailand turned out and the Shito folks in Japan turned out.

Additionally, just like you and I, they may have not had any choice in how they turned out on the spirituality scale so we probably need to approach other religions with at least some compassion for how they arrived at their beliefs. Besides, showing no compassion or understanding of them only leads to more incivility and division that makes it hard on everyone in the long run as well as certainly not helpful in leading them out of what appears to be a delusion to me.

End rant he says with a smile.

 

[Elmer B Fuddled]

Well, I figure you really don't think all Catholic clerics are corrupt and pedophiles.

Surely you know that many if not most Catholics are good people doing the best they can to live a decent life who have had the dice rolled to have them turn out as Catholics much like the Buddhists in Thailand turned out and the Shito folks in Japan turned out.

Additionally, just like you and I, they may have not had any choice in how they turned out on the spirituality scale so we probably need to approach other religions with at least some compassion for how they arrived at their beliefs. Besides, showing no compassion or understanding of them only leads to more incivility and division that makes it hard on everyone in the long run as well as certainly not helpful in leading them out of what appears to be a delusion to me.

End rant he says with a smile.

Nope. I believe all religion is a farce. End of story.

 

[Mister Muso]

Well, I figure you really don't think all Catholic clerics are corrupt and pedophiles.

Surely you know that many if not most Catholics are good people doing the best they can to live a decent life who have had the dice rolled to have them turn out as Catholics much like the Buddhists in Thailand turned out and the Shito folks in Japan turned out.

Additionally, just like you and I, they may have not had any choice in how they turned out on the spirituality scale so we probably need to approach other religions with at least some compassion for how they arrived at their beliefs. Besides, showing no compassion or understanding of them only leads to more incivility and division that makes it hard on everyone in the long run as well as certainly not helpful in leading them out of what appears to be a delusion to me.

End rant he says with a smile.

That's a reasonably fair and tolerant comment. For this thread, at any rate.

 

[Jazzer]

Nope. I believe all religion is a farce. End of story.

'Elmer - my man - unequivocal - spot on Bro'

Dave xx

 

[Jazzer]

Spinoza on God,

God would say:

"Stop praying.
What I want you to do is go out into the world and enjoy your life. I want you to sing, have fun and enjoy everything I've made for you.

Stop going into those dark, cold temples that you built yourself and saying they are my house. My house is in the mountains, in the woods, rivers, lakes, beaches. That's where I live and there I express my love for you.

Stop blaming me for your miserable life; I never told you there was anything wrong with you or that you were a sinner, or that your sexuality was a bad thing. Sex is a gift I have given you and with which you can express your love, your ecstasy, your joy. So don't blame me for everything they made you believe.

Stop reading alleged sacred scriptures that have nothing to do with me. If you can't read me in a sunrise, in a landscape, in the look of your friends, in your son's eyes... you will find me in no book!

Stop asking me "will you tell me how to do my job?" Stop being so scared of me. I do not judge you or criticize you, nor get angry, or bothered. I am pure love.

Stop asking for forgiveness, there's nothing to forgive. If I made you... I filled you with passions, limitations, pleasures, feelings, needs, inconsistencies... free will. How can I blame you if you respond to something I put in you? How can I punish you for being the way you are, if I'm the one who made you? Do you think I could create a place to burn all my children who behave badly for the rest of eternity? What kind of god would do that?

Respect your peers and don't do what you don't want for yourself.

All I ask is that you pay attention in your life, that alertness is your guide.

My beloved, this life is not a test, not a step on the way, not a rehearsal, nor a prelude to paradise. This life is the only thing here and now and it is all you need.
I have set you absolutely free, no prizes or punishments, no sins or virtues, no one carries a marker, no one keeps a record.

You are absolutely free to create in your life. Heaven or hell.

I can't tell you if there's anything after this life but I can give you a tip. Live as if there is not. As if this is your only chance to enjoy, to love, to exist.

So, if there's nothing after, then you will have enjoyed the opportunity I gave you. And if there is, rest assured that I won't ask if you behaved right or wrong, I'll ask. Did you like it? Did you have fun? What did you enjoy the most? What did you learn?
Stop believing in me; believing is assuming, guessing, imagining. I don't want you to believe in me, I want you to believe in you. I want you to feel me in you when you kiss your beloved, when you tuck in your little girl, when you caress your dog, when you bathe in the sea.

Stop praising me, what kind of egomaniac God do you think I am?
I'm bored being praised. I'm tired of being thanked. Feeling grateful? Prove it by taking care of yourself, your health, your relationships, the world.

Express your joy! That's the way to praise me.

Stop complicating things and repeating as a parakeet what you've been taught about me.

What do you need more miracles for? So many explanations?
The only thing for sure is that you are here, that you are alive, that this world is full of wonders."

- Spinoza

 

[Jazzer]

'Ditch the indoctrinated fear
- Just Live !!!!!'

 

[Elmer B Fuddled]

Spinoza on God,

God would say:

"Stop praying.
What I want you to do is go out into the world and enjoy your life. I want you to sing, have fun and enjoy everything I've made for you.

Stop going into those dark, cold temples that you built yourself and saying they are my house. My house is in the mountains, in the woods, rivers, lakes, beaches. That's where I live and there I express my love for you.

Stop blaming me for your miserable life; I never told you there was anything wrong with you or that you were a sinner, or that your sexuality was a bad thing. Sex is a gift I have given you and with which you can express your love, your ecstasy, your joy. So don't blame me for everything they made you believe.

Stop reading alleged sacred scriptures that have nothing to do with me. If you can't read me in a sunrise, in a landscape, in the look of your friends, in your son's eyes... you will find me in no book!

Stop asking me "will you tell me how to do my job?" Stop being so scared of me. I do not judge you or criticize you, nor get angry, or bothered. I am pure love.

Stop asking for forgiveness, there's nothing to forgive. If I made you... I filled you with passions, limitations, pleasures, feelings, needs, inconsistencies... free will. How can I blame you if you respond to something I put in you? How can I punish you for being the way you are, if I'm the one who made you? Do you think I could create a place to burn all my children who behave badly for the rest of eternity? What kind of god would do that?

Respect your peers and don't do what you don't want for yourself.

All I ask is that you pay attention in your life, that alertness is your guide.

My beloved, this life is not a test, not a step on the way, not a rehearsal, nor a prelude to paradise. This life is the only thing here and now and it is all you need.
I have set you absolutely free, no prizes or punishments, no sins or virtues, no one carries a marker, no one keeps a record.

You are absolutely free to create in your life. Heaven or hell.

I can't tell you if there's anything after this life but I can give you a tip. Live as if there is not. As if this is your only chance to enjoy, to love, to exist.

So, if there's nothing after, then you will have enjoyed the opportunity I gave you. And if there is, rest assured that I won't ask if you behaved right or wrong, I'll ask. Did you like it? Did you have fun? What did you enjoy the most? What did you learn?
Stop believing in me; believing is assuming, guessing, imagining. I don't want you to believe in me, I want you to believe in you. I want you to feel me in you when you kiss your beloved, when you tuck in your little girl, when you caress your dog, when you bathe in the sea.

Stop praising me, what kind of egomaniac God do you think I am?
I'm bored being praised. I'm tired of being thanked. Feeling grateful? Prove it by taking care of yourself, your health, your relationships, the world.

Express your joy! That's the way to praise me.

Stop complicating things and repeating as a parakeet what you've been taught about me.

What do you need more miracles for? So many explanations?
The only thing for sure is that you are here, that you are alive, that this world is full of wonders."

- Spinoza

Brilliant and that's the way it should be.

 

[Stacken77]

Spinoza on God

That's their subjective wish, based on a lot of misconceptions, of how God should be, based on their subjective moral framework which has no grounding.

'Ditch the indoctrinated fear
- Just Live !!!!!'

I'd rather fear God, and be assured that my future is in his hands, rather than it be in the hands of chance — that would be a lot more fearful.

 

[Elmer B Fuddled]

That's their subjective wish, based on a lot of misconceptions, of how God should be, based on their subjective moral framework which has no grounding.

I'd rather fear God, and be assured that my future is in his hands, rather than it be in the hands of chance — that would be a lot more fearful.

When your so-called god arrives to put the fear of him into you please inform us of what he really is, and bring him along and show him to all of us.

 

[Elmer B Fuddled]

@Jazzer, I think I just opened a can of s#$t, oh well.

 

[Jazzer]

That's their subjective wish, based on a lot of misconceptions, of how God should be, based on their subjective moral framework which has no grounding.

I'd rather fear God, and be assured that my future is in his hands, rather than it be in the hands of chance — that would be a lot more fearful.

God may or may not exist?
Nobody knows do they?
It's all guesswork.
Religion has been indoctrinated into all of us.
I am not prepared to live in fear of 'what if?'

 

[Stacken77]

[...] bring him along and show him to all of us.

My man, you wouldn't believe if Jesus Christ himself showed up at your doorstep. You'd probably blame it on hallucinations, or any other "natural explanation".

[...]
Religion has been indoctrinated into all of us.
I am not prepared to live in fear of 'what if?'

The problem is that one cannot lead a good life without God, it simply is not possible.

 

[Henry Orlando FL]

The problem is that one cannot lead a good life without God, it simply is not possible.

Ah, my indeed. Maybe this was written in haste and you really don't believe this assertion. It would be quite amazing to me how anyone can be so certain that this assertion is accurate. Why this is much the same as saying all Catholic clerics are corrupt and pedophiles. Take a look at this information about "secular morality" that has nothing to do with belief in a God:

"Secular morality is the aspect of philosophy that deals with morality outside of religious traditions. Modern examples include humanism, freethinking, and most versions of consequentialism. Additional philosophies with ancient roots include those such as skepticism and virtue ethics. Greg M. Epstein also states that, "much of ancient Far Eastern thought is deeply concerned with human goodness without placing much if any stock in the importance of gods or spirits." An example is the Kural text of Valluvar, an ancient Indian theistic poet-philosopher whose work remains secular and non-denominational. Other philosophers have proposed various ideas about how to determine right and wrong actions. An example is Immanuel Kant's categorical imperative."​

You can read the whole article here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_morality

 

[Elmer B Fuddled]

My man, you wouldn't believe if Jesus Christ himself showed up at your doorstep. You'd probably blame it on hallucinations, or any other "natural explanation".

And I wouldn't believe it if he did.

The problem is that one cannot lead a good life without God, it simply is not possible.

I lead a great life I've everything I need and I sure as hell didn't ask any god for help.

 

[Stacken77]

Ah, my indeed. Maybe this was written in haste and you really don't believe this assertion.

First of all, I never insinuated that @Jazzer, or any other person here, have not lead a good life. I know a lot of atheists and agnostics that I would consider "good" people, doing "good" deeds. It's just that they lack 'belief' in God, and that is different from my point which is to "lead a good life without God", or to clarify, 'without the existence of God.'

The problem with secular morality is that they are man made frameworks which still are subjective and not of objective nature. If anyone disagrees with these frameworks, who are we to judge them for that? We can't judge each other if we can subscribe to different moral frameworks.

From the Wikipedia-article you linked, I object to the following;

Consequentialism
[...] a morally right act (or omission) is one that will produce a good outcome, or consequence.

What is 'good'? You cannot define 'good'. If we say that 'good' acts are those that ultimately preserve the livelihood of man, who's to say that life is more preferable to death? Many, under different circumstances, prefer death over life.

Secular humanism
[..] Secular humanism focuses on the way human beings can lead happy and functional lives.

Again, what is a 'happy' life? You may say that it is a given, but what may be a happy life for one person may not be equal to that of another, and if one persons happiness interferes with another persons happiness?

I'd totally say that all of these guidelines is good, I agree with them, but they are not fit to build an objective moral law that everyone would subscribe to. What is 'good' for one may differ to another.

 

[Henry Orlando FL]

First of all, I never insinuated that @Jazzer, or any other person here, have not lead a good life. I know a lot of atheists and agnostics that I would consider "good" people, doing "good" deeds. It's just that they lack 'belief' in God, and that is different from my point which is to "lead a good life without God", or to clarify, 'without the existence of God.'

The problem with secular morality is that they are man made frameworks which still are subjective and not of objective nature. If anyone disagrees with these frameworks, who are we to judge them for that? We can't judge each other if we can subscribe to different moral frameworks.

From the Wikipedia-article you linked, I object to the following;

What is 'good'? You cannot define 'good'. If we say that 'good' acts are those that ultimately preserve the livelihood of man, who's to say that life is more preferable to death? Many, under different circumstances, prefer death over life.

Again, what is a 'happy' life? You may say that it is a given, but what may be a happy life for one person may not be equal to that of another, and if one persons happiness interferes with another persons happiness?

I'd totally say that all of these guidelines is good, I agree with them, but they are not fit to build an objective moral law that everyone would subscribe to. What is 'good' for one may differ to another.

Oh good, thanks for the clarification Stacken77. I am glad you found something that works for you so I have no problem with your belief in God. Naturally, as an agnostic, I don't think God is all-powerful who can make a rock too big for him to lift. And if he could build a rock so big he could not lift it then he is not all-powerful thus not God. That being just one argument in the matter.

I definitely don't think there will ever be an "objective moral law that everyone would subscribe to" given the nature of human beings and our cultures I would say even philosophers and psychologists debate if there is any possibility for humans to be objective about anything. If you are open to learning the other side's thinking, I recommend Matt Dillahunty. You can look him up on YouTube.com and he is also on YouTube with The Atheist Experience.

I wish you well.

Henry

 

[Stacken77]

If you are open to learning the other side's thinking, I recommend Matt Dillahunty. You can look him up on YouTube.com and he is also on YouTube with The Atheist Experience.

Thanks. I'd recommend the works of Jordan B Peterson. While he may not be a your traditional christian believer, I find his reasoning interesting. I remember he had a very interesting discussion with Matt Dillahunty.

Anyway, I sincerely wish you well, Henry.

/Carl

 

[Stu1983]

Hi guys. I hope you're all well. I'd like to ask you two questions if you' be kind enough to answer them.

1) What are your reasons for rejecting or being unsure of God's existence in general or more specifically Christian Theism?

2) What bothers you most about Theists or Monotheists?

Thanks for taking the time to read this

 

[Henry Orlando FL]

Hi guys. I hope you're all well. I'd like to ask you two questions if you' be kind enough to answer them.

1) What are your reasons for rejecting or being unsure of God's existence in general or more specifically Christian Theism?

2) What bothers you most about Theists or Monotheists?

Thanks for taking the time to read this

Hello Stu 1983,

I personally am not bothered by Theists or monotheists or Christians. I am happy for them if they have found something that makes them feel good. I do get concerned with any "true believers" of any religious tradition that try to impose a theocracy like say the government in Iran or the Taliban in Afghanistan.

Now, what does bother me and is an immediate threat in the USA is when particularly the evangelical protestants who are mostly on the right-wing of the Republican Party try to enforce their value systems by getting them placed into the law thus requiring me to live by their rules. To be sure not all evangelical Christians are on the right-wing of the Republican Party. Some, indeed a minority of them, are in the progressive or left wing of the Democratic Party. Additionally, the Roman Catholic Church's conservative wing of the church in the USA can also try to impose or keep their rules into law along with the right-wing evangelical protestants. Here again, not all Catholics in the USA are conservative Catholics. In fact, most Catholics in the USA are not conservative Catholics.

In terms of what is my number one reason for not being a theist is there just is no proof. There are opinions but no proof. In terms of Christianity, I was raised as a conservative Roman Catholic in the 1950s. Of course, I was a child and took it all in totally as do most children everywhere whatever the religion. As I began to grow into adulthood it became very clear a ton of things were off with Catholicism. A little later I learned of the problems with the Bible being "the word of God" if you will. I learned of the problems with believing the divinity of Jesus. That pretty much ruled out being a Christian. I then journeyed into Hinduism which I later learned had issues. I then moved on into Buddhism which is a "non-theistic" religion. Finally, I ended up as a "secular Buddhist" which is a philosophy rather than a religion since it strips out all of the religious aspects out of "regular" Buddhist approaches. Some "regular" Buddhists don't consider Secular Buddhists as Buddhist mostly because they at least call into question or do not believe in reincarnation. In recent years I have honed my thinking on being an atheist of the agnostic type via spending time reading books on the history of Christianity with how it became the dominant religion in the west, modern atheists like Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins as well as watching Matt Dillahunty on YouTube.com via "The Atheist Experience" which is a site he spends a lot of time on although he has other sites as well.

Probably more than you wanted to know. Hope this hits the spot for you.

Henry

 

[Wrfortiscue]

I have been reading up on the Bible lately and I'm just like wtf am I reading. The stories are bizarre but interesting.

My opinion is that God is wrathful and fearful and Jesus was the loving one that showed that humans are worth something. I do believe most religions are derived from the same concept and more or less are expressed in their own unique way based on region.

It's ok if people believe and it's ok if people don't believe. I guess we can all appreciate either side not pushing their own beliefs on one another and just respect that.

I think the world is just played out and will be until it's not. We are flawed and that is why evil is set to exist in this world. Cancer, murder, rape, etc, it's just the natural things playing it's course.

I also believe there is no proof because in my opinion if God wanted us to follow based on faith, wouldn't concrete proof just defeat that purpose? People would follow out of pure fear and consequence rather than devotion. Just my opinion. Doesn't mean it's right lol.

There are some flaws in the Bible, like where are the dinosaurs? Beasts are mentioned but nothing really there that relates them.

I don't know, everything is just weird. Fucking tinnitus is weird. I appreciate anyone just being nice to another in this messed up world, I mean I wish I could be that person.

 

[Jazzer]

Hi guys. I hope you're all well. I'd like to ask you two questions if you' be kind enough to answer them.

1) What are your reasons for rejecting or being unsure of God's existence in general or more specifically Christian Theism?

2) What bothers you most about Theists or Monotheists?

Thanks for taking the time to read this

Very good questions Stu.

1. There is only a book, written by men, of dubious authenticity.
Referred to as 'The Word of God.'
God didn't write it - men did.
There is no experiential evidence for any god.
Prayer is a pointless monologue, not a dialogue.
There is no reply.

2. Their apparent relegation of atheists and agnostics as somehow lacking in moral fibre, and therefore inferior people.