Agnostics “R” Us...

[Jazzer]

In my opinion the entire world has been held to ransom for thousands of years by religious doctrines which have terrorised civilisation for generations with these threats of eternal torture.

I believe not one word of it - and yes - I couldn't care less.

 

[volsung37]

Can some faithful people who are ill, and believe in a god or gods, obtain results whether the being that they believe in exists, or not? I think that hope and a positive attitude can help with some, to various degrees with most medical conditions, and if their faith provides this it's fine for them. For myself, this would be impossible but I'd try to do it other ways. I do not, however, believe in "faith healers" at all. Faith healing is a hoax, and highly dishonest. As far as praying for sick or needy people, there is the Ingersoll quotation, "The hands that help are better far than lips that pray".

Tried a faith healer once for a few sessions. Nothing much happened.

I think the main benefit was getting through time hopefully.

The real 'miracle' of healing comes from within ourselves over time. Whatever gets us through the crisis time is useful whether it be weird supplements, faith healers, prayers...

As long as we don't place too much faith in invasive medical procedures in this crisis period. That is when real damage can be done especially when all they get usually is measurements they can do nothing further with.

 

[UKBloke]

@volsung37, truth 'absolutely' is an interesting concept (there's a pun in there somewhere).

I remember frying my brain reading Stephen Hawking's A Brief History of Time back in the early 90's. I've never really gone too deeply into this stuff but that book was (surprisingly for me at the time) the first introduction to the notions of things like truth, knowing, belief, and even faith. Dunno if any of you guys read the book but he talks about the uncertainty of absolute truth, and then frames this in stuff like Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle.

I've had many conversations with my mum about religion, life after death etc. We're not a particularly religious family but at the same time, absent some kind of faith, both of us admitted struggling to wrap our heads around the idea of oblivion post mortem; the concept of nothing, zero. There's a really beautiful section in Hawking's book where he discusses Schrodinger's experiment. He describes matter and anti-matter, and expresses the following equation with +1 representing matter, and -1 representing anti-matter:

(+1) + (-1) = 0

It's such a simple equation in the context of his discussion that I didn't immediately recognise the philosophical beauty of it. Hawking mysteriously said if you ever meet yourself don't shake hands because the combination of matter and anti-matter results in zero. Profoundly (for me at least) though, he then reversed the equation in the same kind of way we would do straightforward math exercises in school to read:

0 = (+1) + (-1)

In basic parlance Hawking said, out of nothing comes everything.

I've never forgotten the feeling I had at that precise moment reading those words. To have the concept of nothing expressed in the most basic way (especially to someone as thick as a barn door like me) was almost a relief.

In some respect I guess that was the day I found my own version of faith. To no one in particular I would say it's important to have faith, faith in religion, faith in science, faith in fate, whatever. The opposite is a form of nihilism, and I don't believe that is a particularly healthy state for humans to exist in.

 

[Greg Sacramento]

Can some faithful people who are ill, and believe in a god or gods, obtain results whether the being that they believe in exists, or not? I think that hope and a positive attitude can help with some, to various degrees with most medical conditions, and if their faith provides this it's fine for them.

Agree - like.

Medically yes, it exists, believing - as within trauma hospitals where I worked. More so when one has previously lost a loved one.

With illness, believing or showing compassion to those who believe helps with own aging mentality. With this, when time comes for most ill patients - hospitalization, less psych drugs are used. Or even when one thought is I don't know / I don't think about it.

 

[Henry Orlando FL]

Also, given how much you value stillness, have you ever considered that stillness may "possibly" be the presence of god?

Ah Lane, right here (per above) is an interesting place for me. Right there is where interpretation takes place. What I am referring to is where you talk about "...that stillness may "possibly" be...". For you it may mean the mind that you inhabit or inhabits you (not sure which... get into free will or not discussions) interprets that experience of stillness as the presence of god. That which most call mind automatically creates a piece of "self talk" (which may be unconscious or subconscious) and tells what we call "you" (after all it can be argued there is no "you" or "self"... those are just explanatory constructs) that the stillness place you speak of "just could be mind" or with some if not most people "it is god". Many go so far as to say they "feel" the presence of god in those "stillness" places one can experience. The Hindu of the Vedas or Upanishads would say it is "Atman" which is the principle of the universe (or god) that animates the universe. A person like me says/thinks two or three things about those types of places or spaces that leads to #4:

1. Different people will interpret those experiences in different ways due to biological, psychological and social factors that have influenced them in the past to interpret them the way they do.

2. They think what their automatic self talk (automatic = listened to without any critical thinking in the matter just automatically accepted... may be unconscious or subconscious) is in the matter "The Truth" and again due to biological, psychological ad social factors (such as tribalism, education, laws, etc.) will, to one degree or another, want to convince or even impose those beliefs, as if they were facts, on to others.

3. If one looks at those places/experiences and listens to the "self talk" with an objective and rational approach without getting, shall I say, carried away with the emotions that often comes along with the experiences one can think actually we just don't know what those experiences mean if anything. In fact they just might be "empty and meaningless" other than for the meaning we bring to them via our automatic self talk about them or critical thinking about what self talk arises. It just might be we can't know what they mean (agnostic) and thus given that we can't say there is any god or Atman (atheist) with any level of certainty (agnostic again).

4. Which way that people go with these things above (1-3) a culture or country can wind up as some type of a "Taliban" or "Jihadi" (using the term Jihadi as a holy warrior not as a personal struggle for devotion to Allah if one is a Muslim but as a violent person) or even in the USA anyway, a "Christian evangelical tribe" of what is called "Christian nationalists" that wants to impose those values in law (most non-violent voters but some create legal militias thanks to our gun laws) because they think the USA was established as and should be a Christian nation so basically a Christian theocracy in the USA is desired.

Well anyway, enough already, long way to throw some light on one way of thinking. Thanks for creating the opportunity for me to wax on in the matter.

 

[Jazzer]

I begrudge nobody their faith, their belief, always providing that their faith is benign, peaceable.

At the most desperate times I prayed my heart out.

"Dear God - please help me, please see me, please recognise my pain, please give me your presence."

My entire being was wracked with pain.

I waited minutes, hours, days, weeks, months, years.

What happened?

Nothing. No thing. Reluctantly, and with the heaviest of hearts, I eventually gave up.

I changed my search.

Instead of searching for solace, comfort, a loving Heavenly Father, etc... I decided to search for truth. To weed out the obvious anomalies, the myths, the nonsensical, the vicious threats, the cruel blackmailing descriptions of hellfire and damnation that had haunted me from my childhood.

My world became a kinder place.

 

[Jazzer]

 

[Jazzer]

'The only true religion perhaps...x'

 

[volsung37]

A great teacher died today in Thich Nhat Hanh.

His teachings on mindful walking helped me a lot when I was first experiencing tinnitus.

Even today as I walk in a park I say 'Breathing in, I breathe in, breathing out, I breathe out... Breathing in, I breathe in deeply, breathing out, I breathe out slowly... Breathing in, I am aware of my body, breathing out, I am at ease.'

I believe the calmness and mindfulness helped me heal through that terrible time. There were no Gods in his teaching. Just a belief that ultimately we are all one. He said once 'I am a continuation, like the rain is the continuation of the cloud'.

 

[Luman]

A great teacher died today in Thich Nhat Hanh.

His teachings on mindful walking helped me a lot when I was first experiencing tinnitus.

Even today as I walk in a park I say 'Breathing in, I breathe in, breathing out, I breathe out... Breathing in, I breathe in deeply, breathing out, I breathe out slowly... Breathing in, I am aware of my body, breathing out, I am at ease.'

I believe the calmness and mindfulness helped me heal through that terrible time. There were no Gods in his teaching. Just a belief that ultimately we are all one. He said once 'I am a continuation, like the rain is the continuation of the cloud'.

Thich Nhat Hanh was a Buddhist monk, not a proponent of Atheism or Agnosticism. so why is he being memorialized here?

 

[volsung37]

Thich Nhat Hanh was a Buddhist monk, not a proponent of Atheism or Agnosticism. so why is he being memorialized here?

Because he meant a lot to me (a contributor to this thread) and I believe helped me heal my tinnitus before through mindfulness.

I suppose you could actually say he was an atheist. He certainly never talked about gods.

 

[Jazzer]

Thich Nhat Hanh was a Buddhist monk, not a proponent of Atheism or Agnosticism. so why is he being memorialized here?

The Buddha never claimed to be a god. He knew that he was merely a man. He was a spiritual teacher, a philosopher, but not a god. There is no deity in Buddhism.

Hence - an atheist.

 

[Luman]

Because he meant a lot to me (a contributor to this thread) and I believe helped me heal my tinnitus before through mindfulness.

I suppose you could actually say he was an atheist. He certainly never talked about gods.

He never said a single word about Atheism or Agnosticism, in any of the well known quotations that I have reviewd this morning. Not talking about god is not an indication that he had any understanding of, or enthusiasm for, Atheism or Agnosticism. Was he against organized religion, and was he a proponent of separation of church and state? If he was, I can't find anything to support it.

 

[Luman]

This looks to me like he's praying. No Agnostic or Atheist would would pose for a photo, in this manner.

 

[volsung37]

This looks to me like he's praying. No Agnostic or Atheist would would pose for a photo, in this manner.

View attachment 48606

On the contrary. This is a greeting. In India they would call it Namaste. I'm not sure what they call it in Vietnam.

People have different ways of greeting each other around the world whether agnostic or atheist.

 

[volsung37]

He never said a single word about Atheism or Agnosticism, in any of the well known quotations that I have reviewd this morning. Not talking about god is not an indication that he had any understanding of, or enthusiasm for, Atheism or Agnosticism. Was he against organized religion, and was he a proponent of separation of church and state? If he was, I can't find anything to support it.

You don't have to talk about these things to be an atheist. What he was about was mindfulness and compassion. I don't think he actually cared if you believe in organised religion. I know many theists who valued his approach to life. I know many atheists likewise.

His approach was always that it is this present moment which is important. Not thoughts of future lives or gods.

 

[Jazzer]

There have been millions of books, essays, words written about him, and the general consensus seems to be that he did not consider himself to be a god.

He had no desire to be worshiped, but rather to promote a truly peaceful way of life.

Anyway, it's a bit late to ask him now, and it's not something that I personally choose to worry about myself.

 

[Luman]

You don't have to talk about these things to be an atheist. What he was about was mindfulness and compassion. I don't think he actually cared if you believe in organised religion. I know many theists who valued his approach to life. I know many atheists likewise.

His approach was always that it is this present moment which is important. Not thoughts of future lives or gods.

He was an ordained Buddhist religious leader, an enterprising monk with millions of dollars and countless suckers who cosidered him a "Master" of Zen Buddhism, whatever that is.

This man was no more an Atheist than Billy Sunday.

He and others such as the Dalai Lama were trained by their superiors from a very young age to act the part of an enlightened holy man, and they did it very well. There is nothing that either of them ever said, that was not said before, sometimes better.

If either had said, just once, that they did not believe in a god, or gods, because there was no evidence to support such a claim, at lesst that would have been a step in the right direction, but as far as I know, they never did. Neither of them deserve to even be mentioned in the same discussion as the great freethinkers of what we would call the subject of Atheism, because they did nothing to indicate that they have the slightest interest in the subject.

This is a forum supposedly for Agnostics and non-believers, and this is my opinion.

 

[Jazzer]

We all take a view...

 

[Elmer B Fuddled]

I think that those so called monks have only one religion and it's not Buddha. Their religion is peaceful and money, as all priests, monks, whomever. I met a man who claimed to have been a monk in India for 30 years. And when I questioned him, his true reply was "there is no God, those who have read the Bible are only worshipping a book." With that I carried on down the path.

 

[volsung37]

Think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one

 

[Luman]

As I see it, all religous leaders are, at best, money-hungry con artists and this includes Buddhist monks from the Far East. There are no "special" people, with supernatural gifts or divinely inspired wisdom. This is the basis of non-belief in religion, theology, etc. No Agnostic or Athiest would think otherwise. All monks are priests, no matter what race or nationality they are, or how well they are able to convince people that they are something different, in order to cash in on their naivety.

 

[Jazzer]

Think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one

I'm with you brother.

 

[Luman]

The average life expectancy for Tibetans rose from 35.5 years in 1951, to 72.19 years by 2021. In 1950, under the rule of the Dalai Lama, Tibetian life expectency was 10-15 years lower than world average.

Today, free of Buddhist monk rule since 1950, the lifespan of Tibetan people has doubled, and is slightly above aveage

The former leader of Tibet known as the Dalai Lama wishes to return Tibet to the past. Today, due to public relations and political support, he is worth an estimated 150 million dollars.

 

[Jazzer]

@Luman - you have made yourself perfectly clear.

I do not agree with you, and will not however many times you choose to repeat yourself.

We are all entitled to take a view - I hope?

The religion's founder, Buddha, is considered an extraordinary being, but not a god. The word Buddha means "enlightened." The path to enlightenment is attained by utilizing morality, meditation and wisdom.

QED.

 

[Jazzer]

Out of interest, the Buddha lived during the 5th century BC. He did not proclaim any being as worthy of worship.

The concept of non-belief was considered by the early Greek philosophers.

The Buddha would obviously not have referenced terms such as 'atheism' - (first recorded usage about 1570) or 'agnosticism'- (a term invented by T.H. Huxley 1825 - 1895.)

 

[Luman]

@Luman - you have made yourself perfectly clear.

I do not agree with you, and will not however many times you choose to repeat yourself.

We are all entitled to take a view - I hope?

The religion's founder, Buddha, is considered an extraordinary being, but not a god. The word Buddha means "enlightened." The path to enlightenment is attained by utilizing morality, meditation and wisdom.

QED.

There is nothing in the statement above that I disagree with, about Buddha. I was not talking about him.

Do you consider modern ordained so-called Buddhist monks, to be Agnostics or Atheists? I certainly would not want one of their Grand Poobahs, the Dalai Lama, to be linked in in any way, shape or form, to either of these lifestyles and mindsets.

 

[Jazzer]

I'm not an authority on the Dalai Lama, and don't have time or inclination to become one.

Just looking through several of his 'quotes' on kindness and consideration as a way to live, I don't find too much to argue with.

I can see much that appeals to me in the teaching of the Vietnamese monk Thich Nhat Hahn, who promotes meditation, mindfulness, love and peace etc... though I struggle with the implication of reincarnation.

I do attend a philosophy school once a week, where the emphasis is on 'Living Justly for the benefit of all,' a laudable concept of course.

However, I notice that reincarnation seems to be a prevalent concept.

A teacher explained to me that the essence of a person never dies.

Me: "It doesn't? So what happens to it??"

Teacher: "It goes looking for another womb to get started again."

All a bit 'airy-fairy' for me I'm afraid.

 

[Jazzer]

 

[Elmer B Fuddled]

A group of people were lined up along the river bank watching and praying while the preacher kept dousing a man under water, holding him down then lifting him back up.

The preacher asked the man numerous times, "have you found god my son?"

After about the 4th dousing the man said, after he surfaced."Are you sure this is where he fell in?"