Agnostics “R” Us...

[Jazzer]

My man, you wouldn't believe if Jesus Christ himself showed up at your doorstep. You'd probably blame it on hallucinations, or any other "natural explanation".

The problem is that one cannot lead a good life without God, it simply is not possible.

What risible views you have?!?

 

[Jazzer]

First of all, I never insinuated that @Jazzer, or any other person here, have not lead a good life. I know a lot of atheists and agnostics that I would consider "good" people, doing "good" deeds. It's just that they lack 'belief' in God, and that is different from my point which is to "lead a good life without God", or to clarify, 'without the existence of God.'

The problem with secular morality is that they are man made frameworks which still are subjective and not of objective nature. If anyone disagrees with these frameworks, who are we to judge them for that? We can't judge each other if we can subscribe to different moral frameworks.

From the Wikipedia-article you linked, I object to the following;

What is 'good'? You cannot define 'good'. If we say that 'good' acts are those that ultimately preserve the livelihood of man, who's to say that life is more preferable to death? Many, under different circumstances, prefer death over life.

Again, what is a 'happy' life? You may say that it is a given, but what may be a happy life for one person may not be equal to that of another, and if one persons happiness interferes with another persons happiness?

I'd totally say that all of these guidelines is good, I agree with them, but they are not fit to build an objective moral law that everyone would subscribe to. What is 'good' for one may differ to another.

The trouble with 'God' is that there is absolutely no evidence for his existence.
NONE!
Read Richard Dawkins.
Read Christopher Hitchens.

Christians cling on to their indoctrinated faith through their fear of eternal hell fire.
Some loving Heavenly Father!?!?!

I have no more idea whether there is a god or not, than you do.
You may claim to 'know' by faith, but you cannot actually 'know.'

If there is a god - I'd like to think he is a nice kind one.
Who wants the other sort?
Not me - and neither will I live in fear of a 'what if?'
I managed to unpick my 18 years of indoctrination very successfully.

 

[Jazzer]

My opinion is that God is wrathful and fearful and Jesus was the loving one that showed that humans are worth something.

It is worth remembering that 'Hell' was not mentioned in the Old Testament.

Jesus is looked upon as benign, but according to Matthew (whoever he was - and clearly not a witness - his gospel was not written until decades after the death of Christ) Jesus said that God will separate the sheep from the goats etc...
and cast many into lakes of fire.

This statement has 'spooked' people for generations!

 

[Henry Orlando FL]

I have been reading up on the Bible lately and I'm just like wtf am I reading. The stories are bizarre but interesting.

My opinion is that God is wrathful and fearful and Jesus was the loving one that showed that humans are worth something. I do believe most religions are derived from the same concept and more or less are expressed in their own unique way based on region.

It's ok if people believe and it's ok if people don't believe. I guess we can all appreciate either side not pushing their own beliefs on one another and just respect that.

I think the world is just played out and will be until it's not. We are flawed and that is why evil is set to exist in this world. Cancer, murder, rape, etc, it's just the natural things playing it's course.

I also believe there is no proof because in my opinion if God wanted us to follow based on faith, wouldn't concrete proof just defeat that purpose? People would follow out of pure fear and consequence rather than devotion. Just my opinion. Doesn't mean it's right lol.

There are some flaws in the Bible, like where are the dinosaurs? Beasts are mentioned but nothing really there that relates them.

I don't know, everything is just weird. Fucking tinnitus is weird. I appreciate anyone just being nice to another in this messed up world, I mean I wish I could be that person.

Glad you are diving into the issues of what it means to be human. Seems to me it is an ongoing challenge since at 73 I still am bumping up against stuff. We all have our stuff to contend with depending on a great number of factors. At the risk of being too much of an "OK Boomer" type, I must say overall "we get by with a little help of our friends" and we just "keep on truckin" to make a difference by doing the best we can to become the best we can become. To me, living is not much more complex than that. Of course, at the same time I know living in what most in the world would consider the lap of luxury in the USA my privilege has led to some people's exploitation, pain, and downright evil visited upon them. This then leads me to the "serenity prayer" which for me does not include the "God" part:

The ways of the world are a bit confounding at times. Tinnitus to a certain extent is a thing we can't change which requires a level of acceptance. Anyway, there you go. More than my two cents. Trust it is useful in some way.

 

[Mister Muso]

'Ditch the indoctrinated fear
- Just Live !!!!!'

That's a sweeping generalisation, Jazzer.

Who says we are living in fear, just because we have come to different conclusions on matters of belief than you have?

Who says were are not living, and are not alive and enjoying life as much as we can, for those same reasons?

You say nobody can really know about God. That's a fair enough starting point. Yet you continually use it parrot-fashion to shut down all further discussion, whilst seeming to think you know all about people who you've never met that do believe in a higher power. In fact, you can't stop talking about us! You continually portray us all as being fearful, indoctrinated. Something of which I personally am growing rather weary.

Does Archbishop Desmond Tutu seem fearful and indoctrinated to you? What about Martin Luther King? Or Bear Grylls? Or Johnny Cash? Or James Brown? Even Duke Ellington and John Coltrane remained respectful to their Christian roots.

So enough of the sweeping generalisations please. We can do better than that.

 

[Stacken77]

I have no more idea whether there is a god or not, than you do.
You may claim to 'know' by faith, but you cannot actually 'know.'

My claims may have come off as a bit dogmatic, but I never claimed to 'know' that God exist beyond a shadow of a doubt, I just put fourth a simple assertion that one cannot be 'good' without the existence of a God(the sole entity which could theoretically institute an objective moral law). If you are certain that this is untrue, please define to me that which is 'good' - give me examples. For the time being, nothing is self evident, not to the skeptic.

What risible views you have?!?

Again, in my statement, I did not claim that those who lack 'belief' cannot be 'good'. I claimed that - if God does not exist - we cannot be good, because we have nothing to ground the moral word 'good' in. We may declare some things good, but that is just our subjective understanding of right from wrong, and this understanding may differ from person to person - and if this is the case, we may not judge others even if their perception of right from wrong differ from us. Wouldn't you agree?

 

[FGG]

My claims may have come off as a bit dogmatic, but I never claimed to 'know' that God exist beyond a shadow of a doubt, I just put fourth a simple assertion that one cannot be 'good' without the existence of a God(the sole entity which could theoretically institute an objective moral law). If you are certain that this is untrue, please define to me that which is 'good' - give me examples. For the time being, nothing is self evident, not to the skeptic.

Again, in my statement, I did not claim that those who lack 'belief' cannot be 'good'. I claimed that - if God does not exist - we cannot be good, because we have nothing to ground the moral word 'good' in. We may declare some things good, but that is just our subjective understanding of right from wrong, and this understanding may differ from person to person - and if this is the case, we may not judge others even if their perception of right from wrong differ from us. Wouldn't you agree?

So, the idea is we can't be the judge of "good" because we are too subjective but God is "objective" so we need him to judge. I have heard this argument before and I see where it comes from because "good" is in the eye of the beholder in more complicated situations, especially.

But in Judeo-Christians religions at least, what do you make of questionable situations in the old Testament sanctioned by God (like Slavery and women being forced to marry their rapist)? Clearly our own subjective morality sees these are wrong. Would that make us wrong and these things are "objectively" good?

At least for those ideas of God, there seems to be a different moral feelings between what we feel is good and what they do.

 

[Stacken77]

But in Judeo-Christians religions at least, what do you make of questionable situations in the old Testament sanctioned by God (like Slavery and women being forced to marry their rapist)? Clearly our own subjective morality sees these are wrong.

I can see where you're coming from, FGG, and I will be honest and admit that I'm not theologically equipped to answer that question, since I have not studied the OT that thoroughly yet. But I appreciate you adding nuance to the discussion.

Would that make us wrong and these things are "objectively" good?

I will make a general statement on the above, not in direct regards to the examples you wrote though; Our culture, may change, and our subjective moral convictions may evolve over time, but even when our convictions are contrary to that of the divine law, we can't invalidate it, we can't compromise with it, since it is objective. We can either like it or not, but it remains.

Wish you well.

 

[FGG]

I can see where you're coming from, FGG, and I will be honest and admit that I'm not theologically equipped to answer that question, since I have not studied the OT that thoroughly yet. But I appreciate you adding nuance to the discussion.

I will make a general statement on the above, not in direct regards to the examples you wrote though; Our culture, may change, and our subjective moral convictions may evolve over time, but even when our convictions are contrary to that of the divine law, we can't invalidate it, we can't compromise with it, since it is objective. We can either like it or not, but it remains.

Wish you well.

It used to be a fear of mine (and maybe still is) that there is a God and his values don't match with what I see as loving and "good." And, of course, maybe I am wrong in my subjectivity but some of the "rules" seem so arbitrary to me (not mixing fabrics in clothing comes to mind) whereas exploitation seems ok.

I read the entire Bible once, when I was a teenager (though I skipped over chapters of "x begets y, begets z" type stuff) and it made me kind of sad and disappointed in a way. I guess I expected better but ultimately, who am I?

I'm definitely open to some of the mystery and possibility in the universe but the Bible itself left me fully disillusioned with "religion" at least.

 

[Jazzer]

That's a sweeping generalisation, Jazzer.

Who says we are living in fear, just because we have come to different conclusions on matters of belief than you have?

Who says were are not living, and are not alive and enjoying life as much as we can, for those same reasons?

You say nobody can really know about God. That's a fair enough starting point. Yet you continually use it parrot-fashion to shut down all further discussion, whilst seeming to think you know all about people who you've never met that do believe in a higher power. In fact, you can't stop talking about us! You continually portray us all as being fearful, indoctrinated. Something of which I personally am growing rather weary.

Does Archbishop Desmond Tutu seem fearful and indoctrinated to you? What about Martin Luther King? Or Bear Grylls? Or Johnny Cash? Or James Brown? Even Duke Ellington and John Coltrane remained respectful to their Christian roots.

So enough of the sweeping generalisations please. We can do better than that.

Very well made points MM.
I understand you very well.

As a child the concept of hell truly frightened me.
'Well - I'll have to try and believe - whether I believe or not.'
I resent that indoctrination attempt to this very day.

I still happen to believe it is the primary motivation for a 'religious life' - rightly or wrongly.

This I believe is particularly applicable to Catholics, who appear to have been terrorised.

How does one learn more about god.
Does he speak??

This answer is written in haste.
Perhaps I can do better later on?

Dave.

 

[Lilah]

Jesus said: "Healthy people don't need a doctor—sick people do. I have come to call not those who think they are righteous, but those who know they are sinners."

Jesus came to help humble people who know they are sinners and need help, not people who puff their chests and say they don't need God. If people think they are fine without God, nothing really can be done since people have free will/choice.

 

[Henry Orlando FL]

Jesus said: "Healthy people don't need a doctor—sick people do. I have come to call not those who think they are righteous, but those who know they are sinners."

Jesus came to help humble people who know they are sinners and need help, not people who puff their chests and say they don't need God. If people think they are fine without God, nothing really can be done since people have free will/choice.

Hi Lilah, About "...since people have free will/choice." You might want to look into that deeper. It may be true but then it may not be true. You might want to read these articles to get a deeper perspective if you have not looked into the issues in depth before:

There's No Such Thing as Free Will

Scientific evidence that you probably don't have free will

Why You Probably Don't Have Free Will

Enjoy,
Henry

P.S: I don't puff my chest out he says with a smile.

 

[Jazzer]

My claims may have come off as a bit dogmatic, but I never claimed to 'know' that God exist beyond a shadow of a doubt, I just put fourth a simple assertion that one cannot be 'good' without the existence of a God(the sole entity which could theoretically institute an objective moral law). If you are certain that this is untrue, please define to me that which is 'good' - give me examples. For the time being, nothing is self evident, not to the skeptic.

Again, in my statement, I did not claim that those who lack 'belief' cannot be 'good'. I claimed that - if God does not exist - we cannot be good, because we have nothing to ground the moral word 'good' in. We may declare some things good, but that is just our subjective understanding of right from wrong, and this understanding may differ from person to person - and if this is the case, we may not judge others even if their perception of right from wrong differ from us. Wouldn't you agree?

But in the total absence of any evidence for god we simply have to get on and set up a framework of workable rules that enable us to determine criminal activity, and help us to promote behaviour acceptable to society.

"If god does not exist - we cannot be good ?!?!"

Well - you can speak for yourself on that score.
We all have a thing called a conscience, and that is an incredible tool for keeping the great majority of us in check, I would suggest.
There is nothing more valuable to us than our self respect.
And in any case we do not have recourse to god if he doesn't exist.
A secular rule book us all we can have.

 

[Steph1710]

I don't know, everything is just weird. Fucking tinnitus is weird. I appreciate anyone just being nice to another in this messed up world, I mean I wish I could be that person.

This is a flipping brilliant post! I don't know who you are, but you'd definitely be one of my friends if I knew you. Everything you said was awesome!

 

[Steph1710]

I love this thread! I come here for pure entertainment. *munches popcorn*.

I read the Bible once... bloody boring, apart from the Apocrypha, I quite enjoyed that.

 

[Wrfortiscue]

It is worth remembering that 'Hell' was not mentioned in the Old Testament.

Jesus is looked upon as benign, but according to Matthew (whoever he was - and clearly not a witness - his gospel was not written until decades after the death of Christ) Jesus said that God will separate the sheep from the goats etc...
and cast many into lakes of fire.

This statement has 'spooked' people for generations!

I really don't know. I grew up Jehovah's witness and I kept questioning the elders as a kid. I liked myself when I had more faith lol. Anxiety and depression led me astray and I would like to educate myself more, that's all.

 

[prowlinacage]

Here's something else to "chew" on when pondering the concept of free will:

Collective unconscious: How gut microbes shape human behavior

 

[Elmer B Fuddled]

I love this thread! I come here for pure entertainment. *munches popcorn*.

I read the Bible once... bloody boring, apart from the Apocrypha, I quite enjoyed that.

I read the Bible. Well, not all of it as I found it to be prolonged story about nothing.

Then my father said he read the Bible 3 times as he couldn't figure where God truly came into play. Then his final remark, which put the final nail into that book, he said, "the damn thing was written by 7 Jews." We never brought up the subject again.

People are misled by the shoving down your throat that if you do not do right, you will burn in hell. What type of God would do that.

 

[Steph1710]

Actually, thinking about it, the Bible has some really interesting stories. I guess I was too young at the time to appreciate them. I went to a Church of England school. My family are not Christians - it was just a really good school that wasn't too far away for us to travel to.

I don't follow any faith myself, and would in fact say that I feel strongly against it. However, my partner is Baptist, and all my in-laws are strong believers. My two brother-in-laws are both preachers, and all my in-laws are heavily involved in the church, and missionary work.

I do really struggle with their faith sometimes. It's hard being brought up in a secular home, and then being introduced to a home where faith is the core of everything that they do. We have clashed on a number of occasions, and unfortunately for them, even after 6 years of being taught about God, my opinions haven't changed. In fact, I had less of a problem with Christianity before I knew them, because I didn't realise quite how strange it really was.

But, my point is, Christians/other religions and people who don't follow a faith, can get along just fine. My partner and I are living proof of this. But I do enjoy this thread, because it is like reading some of the arguments we've both had in our six years together.

I always say to him - how do you know your God is the real one, because anyone who believes in God, will swear their God is the true God/s. And I often end it by saying - let's face it, nobody has a bloody clue! Not you, not me, not anyone. You know why? Because none of us where there!

P.S. I didn't even know religion was still a thing in England until I met my partner. I thought it was something only Americans believed in. Growing up, on TV in England, we always had comedy sketches of crazy 'bible belt bashing' Americans who sat round a table a prayed.

 

[Jazzer]

I really don't know. I grew up Jehovah's witness and I kept questioning the elders as a kid. I liked myself when I had more faith lol. Anxiety and depression led me astray and I would like to educate myself more, that's all.

I suggest you read Richard Dawkins & Christopher Hitchens.

Both riveting authors.

 

[Jazzer]

Actually, thinking about it, the Bible has some really interesting stories. I guess I was too young at the time to appreciate them. I went to a Church of England school. My family are not Christians - it was just a really good school that wasn't too far away for us to travel to.

I don't follow any faith myself, and would in fact say that I feel strongly against it. However, my partner is Baptist, and all my in-laws are strong believers. My two brother-in-laws are both preachers, and all my in-laws are heavily involved in the church, and missionary work.

I do really struggle with their faith sometimes. It's hard being brought up in a secular home, and then being introduced to a home where faith is the core of everything that they do. We have clashed on a number of occasions, and unfortunately for them, even after 6 years of being taught about God, my opinions haven't changed. In fact, I had less of a problem with Christianity before I knew them, because I didn't realise quite how strange it really was.

But, my point is, Christians/other religions and people who don't follow a faith, can get along just fine. My partner and I are living proof of this. But I do enjoy this thread, because it is like reading some of the arguments we've both had in our six years together.

I always say to him - how do you know your God is the real one, because anyone who believes in God, will swear their God is the true God/s. And I often end it by saying - let's face it, nobody has a bloody clue! Not you, not me, not anyone. You know why? Because none of us where there!

P.S. I didn't even know religion was still a thing in England until I met my partner. I thought it was something only Americans believed in. Growing up, on TV in England, we always had comedy sketches of crazy 'bible belt bashing' Americans who sat round a table a prayed.

Very interesting post Steph.

My beautiful wife, who I lost last November, had a rock solid faith.
I am totally unconvinced about the existence of any god.
All I see is a book of dubious origin - particularly as the gospels were written decades after the death of Christ, if indeed he ever existed.
The gospelers could not have been eye witnesses.

Also - I can never accept that god is a loving Heavenly Father who is quite prepared to incinerate us for eternity for our unbelief.

I believe that countless generations have been terrified into belief by blackmail.
Our fear of death by burning is primordial, and a despicable concept to build a religious faith on.

But my precious Sylvie and I seemed to jog along okay - she had her belief in Jesus - and I had my conviction that we should all live by the principle of loving kindness.
(In effect - I guess I just cut out the middle man.)

I will also tell you that Sylvie was one of the brightest most intelligent people I have ever known, so her faith did mystify me some.
I would say to her,
"I have no conviction that god actually exists Syl."

She would say, in a threatening tone,
"You'll find out - one day."

 

[Mister Muso]

@Jazzer, thank you for your friendly response to my earlier post. I still love ya! There is a quote from the great C.S. Lewis:

"Some people are inoculated with just enough religion in their early life to prevent them catching the real thing."

Sometimes we need to lose our religion of our childhood in order to find God - or love, or whatever else we decide to base our lives on.

The world "love" occurs more than 700 times in the Bible. So any presentation of religion or faith which neglects love, and relies instead on a list of do's and don'ts, is seriously missing the point.

I'm just a few years younger than you Jazzer. I've read your tales of your upbringing with sadness. I didn't experience a lot of love in my childhood either. I guess our parents all came from a generation where they often weren't good at expressing love and support. Both my parents inherited problems from their own upbringing.

We did attend church as a family, but my parents had quite a "take it or leave it" approach towards observance - it was just something you did on a Sunday morning. My early experience of the church was rather dry and dusty, but I never felt coerced into church attendance, from which I drifted away in my teens. It was only later when I met Christians my own age at university that I finally understood what it was about. I saw the love and the joy they had, and I wanted some of that! They never dodged my hard questions, and when I finally caved in and acknowledged that God was God, and I was not God, it opened a whole new world of experiences to me. I would say that I went from knowing about God, to knowing God in my life. I cannot give you objective proof of that on a public forum, but all I can do is ask you to accept it when I say that it has been real for me. "There is no fear in love... perfect love casts out fear."

"If god does not exist - we cannot be good ?!?!"

We all have a thing called a conscience, and that is an incredible tool for keeping the great majority of us in check.

I think what Stacken77 is trying to say, is where does our "conscience" come from? Is it just something we pick up from society as we go through life? Or is it something we are born with?

And if we're born with our conscience, how did it get there?

Much talk occurs about "original sin" in some quarters, but I also believe our conscience is a sign of "original good". Again it doesn't "prove" God - but for me, it all adds up.

 

[Jazzer]

@Jazzer, thank you for your friendly response to my earlier post. I still love ya! There is a quote from the great C.S. Lewis:

Sometimes we need to lose our religion of our childhood in order to find God - or love, or whatever else we decide to base our lives on.

The world "love" occurs more than 700 times in the Bible. So any presentation of religion or faith which neglects love, and relies instead on a list of do's and don'ts, is seriously missing the point.

I'm just a few years younger than you Jazzer. I've read your tales of your upbringing with sadness. I didn't experience a lot of love in my childhood either. I guess our parents all came from a generation where they often weren't good at expressing love and support. Both my parents inherited problems from their own upbringing.

We did attend church as a family, but my parents had quite a "take it or leave it" approach towards observance - it was just something you did on a Sunday morning. My early experience of the church was rather dry and dusty, but I never felt coerced into church attendance, from which I drifted away in my teens. It was only later when I met Christians my own age at university that I finally understood what it was about. I saw the love and the joy they had, and I wanted some of that! They never dodged my hard questions, and when I finally caved in and acknowledged that God was God, and I was not God, it opened a whole new world of experiences to me. I would say that I went from knowing about God, to knowing God in my life. I cannot give you objective proof of that on a public forum, but all I can do is ask you to accept it when I say that it has been real for me. "There is no fear in love... perfect love casts out fear."

I think what Stacken77 is trying to say, is where does our "conscience" come from? Is it just something we pick up from society as we go through life? Or is it something we are born with?

And if we're born with our conscience, how did it get there?

Much talk occurs about "original sin" in some quarters, but I also believe our conscience is a sign of "original good". Again it doesn't "prove" God - but for me, it all adds up.

Love you too buddy.

Do you have any 'experience' of god?
Does he 'talk' to you?
Or do you just have the Bible to rely on, which would make all other possible experiences circumstantial.

Human kindness, family bonding, goodness itself all predates Christianity.
How else would humanity have survived for aeons of time.
Animals know about love and nurturing.
They don't know Jesus.

 

[FGG]

Animals know about love and nurturing. They don't know Jesus.

And weirdly rats seem among the most empathetic. A rat will preferentially pull a lever (when trained and given the choice) to help another rat in distress over food, access to mates or drug rewards.

Mammals are wired for love and nurturing. Look at Koko the gorilla and her pet cat.

 

[Jazzer]

 

[Mister Muso]

Human kindness, family bonding, goodness itself all predates Christianity.

If these good things come from God, who was there from the beginning, it doesn't matter if they pre-date Christianity or not.

Do you have any 'experience' of god?
Does he 'talk' to you?
Or do you just have the Bible to rely on, which would make all other possible experiences circumstantial.

I was brought up in a church which relied mostly on the Bible. Since then I've been part of churches which are open to the "charismatic" movement, which encourage a more personal relationship with God and expect him to work in miraculous ways.

I've never heard an audible voice but I've had times when I believe God has spoken to me multiple times over a period of days through different means to impress something upon me. Some would say coincidence, others call it God-incidence. (Sorry, bit cringey but it gets the point across).

Also there was one occasion when I went forward for prayer after a service, and I experienced on-the-spot healing of an ailment that had troubled me for some time. This occurred instantly in between my talking about the problem, and the person praying with me even opening their mouth to say a word. The power of suggestion? H'mm, well that was a pretty powerful suggestion that my brain somehow turned into rapid healing, if it was just my brain. Why doesn't God heal more people more often? I don't know, the Bible touches on that but doesn't give a definitive answer. Maybe that was what I needed at that time to encourage me to keep on going.

No one is guaranteed a life free from suffering - Jesus wasn't. I think that's why the Christian story speaks so powerfully to suffering people across the world. To the outside, it seems that some believers wallow too much in the suffering of the Cross. But to the believer, it's a sign that God is not immune to our troubles, and that he's willing to walk through them with us.

 

[kingsfan]

*stumbles in*

If god exists, then it is just a child and we are its play things.

 

[Jazzer]

If these good things come from God, who was there from the beginning, it doesn't matter if they pre-date Christianity or not.

I was brought up in a church which relied mostly on the Bible. Since then I've been part of churches which are open to the "charismatic" movement, which encourage a more personal relationship with God and expect him to work in miraculous ways.

I've never heard an audible voice but I've had times when I believe God has spoken to me multiple times over a period of days through different means to impress something upon me. Some would say coincidence, others call it God-incidence. (Sorry, bit cringey but it gets the point across).

Also there was one occasion when I went forward for prayer after a service, and I experienced on-the-spot healing of an ailment that had troubled me for some time. This occurred instantly in between my talking about the problem, and the person praying with me even opening their mouth to say a word. The power of suggestion? H'mm, well that was a pretty powerful suggestion that my brain somehow turned into rapid healing, if it was just my brain. Why doesn't God heal more people more often? I don't know, the Bible touches on that but doesn't give a definitive answer. Maybe that was what I needed at that time to encourage me to keep on going.

No one is guaranteed a life free from suffering - Jesus wasn't. I think that's why the Christian story speaks so powerfully to suffering people across the world. To the outside, it seems that some believers wallow too much in the suffering of the Cross. But to the believer, it's a sign that God is not immune to our troubles, and that he's willing to walk through them with us.

"I was brought up in a church" you say.
I would have been very surprised if you hadn't been.

I was also brought up in a church - the Salvation Army - for 18 years.
My first objection to the whole thing was the incontestable blackmailing threat of hellfire for the unbeliever.
That hateful doctrine finished the whole thing off for me.
I will not believe through cowardice.
God apparently has given us the free will to accept him or reject him.

Some 'Free Will !?!?!'

Believe on those terms?
'Not Bloody Likely !!!'

I had the courage to question everything.

It wasn't all a complete waste of time however.
At least I had access to brass instruments, and became a professional jazz trombonist and trumpeter, playing international jazz festivals at home and abroad for more than 50 years.

However, the price I paid was listening (nailed to me seat) for 18 bloody years, listening to, and rejecting all of those turgid sermons, spouting the prospect of hell and damnation.

No thanks brother.
I am not a 'sin sick soul' - I am quite simply a human being,
with flaws like everybody else living in this human condition.

It is never my intention to offend anybody, but will always have to speak my mind.

Best wishes

Dave x
Jazzer

 

[Jazzer]

It is my opinion that faith (religion) should not be taught as fact, to children before the age of cognitive thought - perhaps to ten year olds and above.

Indoctrination with menaces represents child abuse.

'Faith' should always be taught alongside other philosophical alternatives.

Fear induced acceptance amounts to corruption of the motherboard, and may contaminate the thought processes lifelong.

 

[Elmer B Fuddled]

It is my opinion that faith (religion) should not be taught as fact, to children before the age of cognitive thought - perhaps to ten year olds and above.

Indoctrination with menaces represents child abuse.

'Faith' should always be taught alongside other philosophical alternatives.

Fear induced acceptance amounts to corruption of the motherboard, and may contaminate the thought processes lifelong.

My lovely wife and her siblings were born Catholic, by this it meant Catholicism was introduced at the beginning of conception. The mother in Church every morning praying to some word spoken by a priest who faithfully told his people you will burn for eternity if you don't worship my God. Point being is from the time of birth children are threatened by words from some con artist with a white collar around his neck, or some sour old woman dressed up like a penguin, threatening children with a whipping if they don't learn the right way, which is, you damn well better be praying and not picking your nose, or by the wrath of God I will beat you.

These children have not put a foot in a Church for any sermon about hellfire and damnation. I have asked my wife numerous times, and her words ring the same, who the fuck is going to tell me how to live my life, it's you do as the Church says, or we will ban you. Plus as she said, why do I have to put my hard earned money into your damn basket, I'm not buying any stairs to heaven because it does not exist.