Agnostics “R” Us...

[just1morething]

This is true whether you are atheist or agnostic:

Ecclesiastes 11
As you do not know the path of the wind, or how the body is formed in a mother's womb, so you cannot understand the work of God, the Maker of all things.


Isaiah 55
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the LORD.

"As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.

 

[Lane]

I am into the idea of if one doesn't know both sides of the argument, one has not thought it through enough.

Hi @Henry Orlando FL -- Are you familiar with some of Yogi Berra's sayings? One that has stuck with me is what he had to say before an upcoming world series against a team that was favored. He apparently quipped, "If we can get them to thinking, we can beat 'em"!

I'm of the opinion that when it comes to discerning whether or not God exists, we should of course depend on our thinking--to a degree. But what if we're meant to come to a point where we're supposed to just stop thinking? I think there are parts of every person that is much more "astute" than the thinking part. But that's just me.

 

[Henry Orlando FL]

Hi @Henry Orlando FL -- Are you familiar with some of Yogi Berra's sayings? One that has stuck with me is what he had to say before an upcoming world series against a team that was favored. He apparently quipped, "If we can get them to thinking, we can beat 'em"!

I'm of the opinion that when it comes to discerning whether or not God exists, we should of course depend on our thinking--to a degree. But what if we're meant to come to a point where we're supposed to just stop thinking? I think there are parts of every person that is much more "astute" than the thinking part. But that's just me.

Yes, I am aware of the assertion that feelings are another way of perceiving and if one lets go of the thinking then one can experience XXXXX.

Here is where I think biology enters the picture. See this on the biology of feelings for example:

The Biology of Emotions

Or even better is this article on the God Spots in the Brain:

God Spots in the Brain: Nine Categories of Unasked, Unanswered Questions

Some people are hard wired up to be more likely to believe in God or so goes the hypothesis with some research support. Also some people are hard wired up to be highly sensitive people emotionally, thus more feeling oriented, and others are wired up to me more intellectually oriented and less feeling oriented.

Then there is the cultural aspect of feelings with some cultures being more emotional based or less emotional based.

Then let's not forget the gender differences that may be somewhat biological and somewhat cultural.

I have to say I am wired up to be intellectual, I also have all the cultural baggage of the USA male although I am not an Alpha male.

And finally I have made a conscious decision a few decades ago (thanks to Werner Erhard and Secular Buddhism) to be aware of my feelings or go with what people call "my gut" and not act on my feelings but instead to be committed to think before I act thus hopefully finding the best course of action in the now that serves everyone or at least does the least damage to everyone.

If I had followed my feelings I probably would have become a Roman Catholic priest only to find much later that was a mistake. Instead I became a sort of secular priest by becoming a psychotherapist who spent much of the day not acting on feelings, staying centered and coming from my intellectual nature since I practiced using Cognitive Behavioral Therapy which is very intellectual/thinking oriented.

Long way to say I understand what you are pointing to and it is just not my way. It may be other people's way which is fine with me unless they start to have me live by their religion's rules.

 

[SarahMLFlemmer]

Welcome Sarah. Brave of you he says with a smile. Is that assertion your sole basis for believing there is a God? I am into the idea of if one doesn't know both sides of the argument, one has not thought it through enough.

To get a refutation of the "Jesus resurrection" story see here:

Rebuffing and Rejecting the Resurrection: An Explanation of Cavin and Colombetti's Article

Hi Henry! I can't give you a super fancy answer to your question, all I can really tell you is that I've read Scripture and there's just way too many "coincidences" in the world and in my life to deny that what the Bible says.

It isn't complete objective truth.

 

[Stuart-T]

Hi Henry! I can't give you a super fancy answer to your question, all I can really tell you is that I've read Scripture and there's just way too many "coincidences" in the world and in my life to deny that what the Bible says.

It isn't complete objective truth.

Christians claim some of the events in the bible are objective truth.

Two Christian objective truths:

• God exists.
• Jesus is God in the flesh.

You base belief in these "objective truths" on co-incidences you have observed?

Please supply some examples.

I'm of the opinion that when it comes to discerning whether or not God exists, we should of course depend on our thinking--to a degree. But what if we're meant to come to a point where we're supposed to just stop thinking? I think there are parts of every person that is much more "astute" than the thinking part. But that's just me.

The problem with feeling your way to God - or intuition - is - how can you be confident your intuition and unthinking feelings relate to anything objectively real?

Intuition and feelings are not reliable pathways to determining what is real. You could do a special pleading trick and say - well normally yes - but in this case no. But you have no way of demonstrating that to yourself, let alone anyone else.

What we need - so that we can determine shared facts about reality - is evidence - which can then be evaluated.

If you have your own intuited God, higher power or whatever that you think perhaps you have had a glimpse of in unthinking meditation - that's fine - but I don't know how you can map that to reality with any level of confidence. And I would ask - if you have intuited such an entity or power or whatever - tell me something - anything about it.

Skeptics like me are not saying we should live dry rational lives and overthink everything all the time. I experience non thinking awe when perceiving art, nature, love, beauty - maybe in the same way you do. But if we are talking about truth claims - namely - that some God exists - feelings and intuition are not the way to confirm them in any way that can be shared between people so that something can be considered true.

-----------------------------

Joke:

Buddha went into a pizzeria and said "make me one with everything".

The pizza was brought and he said "where is my change?"

He was told. "Change only comes from within".

 

[GeorgeLG]

As long as you are not hurting anybody I'm good with all belief systems. For me it's personal and something that we need to arrive at on our own and then have our truth. Either you believe or you don't and it doesn't need to be proven empirically. Constant attempts to do so seem to me to be doubt that needs reconciling. OK, maybe it's just annoying because it's not the same respect I give, back towards me. I have no idea if God exists personally, it's inherently unknowable. There can only be faith or the lack thereof. The repeated attempts to convince people on circular arguments about actual events and facts is futile. It's thousands of years of story telling and words written by humans. I know, the inerrant word, but it's just as likely to be errant as with most written things. The books are selective, the words are translations from multiple languages. 5,000 years old, what about dinosaurs? Don't get me wrong, none of this matters to me and certainly has no bearing on if I believe or not, I'm just saying that all this arguing is goofy. Oh believe me, I know that it's not goofy to the devout and I understand. Strict rules, pageantry and structure are an important part of many religions and I get it. I personally have searched for decades and found nothing. The closest I have come yet was to be completely overwhelmed on an isolated summit in Hawaii and cried at the beauty and spirituality of this place and thought that if there is a God, it is in nature. I am spiritual for sure. That hit me pretty hard and that's in the front running for me.

I can't explain the origins of the universe or know where we go when we die. If God created the universe, then who or what created him or her. I know, he always "was". Well then the universe could just have always been. Why do devout Christians who pray and go to church suffer like my wife did and die in horrible pain. Genocide, famine, plagues. These debates can go on for days but my observations over 70 years is that none of this changes our life on earth. Mysterious ways, God has a plan for them, we'll see them again in everlasting glory. Sounds great, it's some easy concepts to like but in my case I just did not find them when I looked. To me, at least in some religions, man created God in "his" image and most of the rationale just attempts to explain the random swirling in our universe where shitty things happen and we don't really know what happens when we die. The inheritance of the meek, a judgement for all the bad people getting away with shit, all sounds pretty good. Dudes that die and come back as proof of heaven, inherently unprovable. The believer sees proof, the skeptic sees the dreams and the random brain firing of a dying person who may or may not even be giving us an accurate account. It sells books though.

Maybe it helps us cope, to remove our fears about our purpose, good people suffering, what happens when we die, the "God effect" if you will but I see no actual difference in the outcome for our earthly selves and I was married to a devout Christian family for a quarter century who had at least as much suffering as the non believers in my life. Multiple horrible cancer deaths, including my wife at 54. Same with my mother and father. Interestingly I have been told multiple times that I am the most Christian non-Christian that a few people have ever met so leading a good life can be inspired by more than one thing apparently to reasonable effect. Then of course there is the whole problem of multiple religions currently and thousands before us and who, if anyone is right. I mean people have been killing themselves over this for thousands of years so it's a hot topic and only one can be right. Or maybe they are all right because any such God may not care about the framework and process. Or there is simply nothing there. I'm not even going to get into the whole child abuse thing and profit, confessing to man, etc. Whoa, we could be here all night.

I personally have no idea but I keep an open mind so who knows what I will take to the grave, it ain't over yet. I don't know why some search and find God and speak of overwhelming emotion and love and others like me find nothing. I think of it like when you walk into a room and lock eyes with a stranger and boom, you fall in love. What the hell was that? Nothing to measure, nobody else can see it. You have not even met them yet. If I tell you that I just fell in love with a woman that I have never met, you have no idea if I am being truthful, you only see how excited I am. I cannot prove it but it's my truth. Additionally, two other guys walked in an hour ago and walked right past her and nothing. BTW, that's how it went with my wife. 22 years until death did we part and I had eyes for no other woman, not even 4 years after she passed. I guess falling in love with God, being enraptured with Jesus and the word is something like that, or at least for those that are true believers cuz that ain't always the case.

My wife and I had the greatest relationship ever. I went to her churches, had dinner with her pastors and families and even met with her pastor multiple times after her passing. Nice people, it was important to her so I respected it and supported her but for me personally, nothing ever happened. I even gave her eulogy in this big beautiful church and worked with the pastor's entire family to honor her memory with grace and beauty as she wanted it which was my pleasure. I have a place in my heart for everyone who is loving and sincere but I have no tolerance for violence in the name of a God, hatred and bigotry towards others beliefs, manifest destiny, religious wars, discrimination and non-tolerance. Those are the failings of garden variety human beings that do not actually carry the word and love of their God in their hearts. I still have dinner with my mother-in-law every single night. She is the most devout Christian I have ever met, so pure of heart and love for others, completely selfless and spends her entire day and week in the service of others and God through church, nursing homes, Bible study, and prayer groups. She's 86. I love her and spend time with her because she makes me a better person and I know that my wife who was her caregiver would want me to care for her and she deserves everything that I can offer her.

Carry on soldiers, finding truth ain't for sissies.

P.S. I think I repeated myself back there somewhere, I'm having my monthly chemo weekend and my brain is in the tank until around Tuesday.

George

 

[Henry Orlando FL]

As long as you are not hurting anybody I'm good with all belief systems. For me it's personal and something that we need to arrive at on our own and then have our truth. Either you believe or you don't and it doesn't need to be proven empirically. Constant attempts to do so seem to me to be doubt that needs reconciling. OK, maybe it's just annoying because it's not the same respect I give, back towards me. I have no idea if God exists personally, it's inherently unknowable. There can only be faith or the lack thereof. The repeated attempts to convince people on circular arguments about actual events and facts is futile. It's thousands of years of story telling and words written by humans. I know, the inerrant word, but it's just as likely to be errant as with most written things. The books are selective, the words are translations from multiple languages. 5,000 years old, what about dinosaurs? Don't get me wrong, none of this matters to me and certainly has no bearing on if I believe or not, I'm just saying that all this arguing is goofy. Oh believe me, I know that it's not goofy to the devout and I understand. Strict rules, pageantry and structure are an important part of many religions and I get it. I personally have searched for decades and found nothing. The closest I have come yet was to be completely overwhelmed on an isolated summit in Hawaii and cried at the beauty and spirituality of this place and thought that if there is a God, it is in nature. I am spiritual for sure. That hit me pretty hard and that's in the front running for me.

I can't explain the origins of the universe or know where we go when we die. If God created the universe, then who or what created him or her. I know, he always "was". Well then the universe could just have always been. Why do devout Christians who pray and go to church suffer like my wife did and die in horrible pain. Genocide, famine, plagues. These debates can go on for days but my observations over 70 years is that none of this changes our life on earth. Mysterious ways, God has a plan for them, we'll see them again in everlasting glory. Sounds great, it's some easy concepts to like but in my case I just did not find them when I looked. To me, at least in some religions, man created God in "his" image and most of the rationale just attempts to explain the random swirling in our universe where shitty things happen and we don't really know what happens when we die. The inheritance of the meek, a judgement for all the bad people getting away with shit, all sounds pretty good. Dudes that die and come back as proof of heaven, inherently unprovable. The believer sees proof, the skeptic sees the dreams and the random brain firing of a dying person who may or may not even be giving us an accurate account. It sells books though.

Maybe it helps us cope, to remove our fears about our purpose, good people suffering, what happens when we die, the "God effect" if you will but I see no actual difference in the outcome for our earthly selves and I was married to a devout Christian family for a quarter century who had at least as much suffering as the non believers in my life. Multiple horrible cancer deaths, including my wife at 54. Same with my mother and father. Interestingly I have been told multiple times that I am the most Christian non-Christian that a few people have ever met so leading a good life can be inspired by more than one thing apparently to reasonable effect. Then of course there is the whole problem of multiple religions currently and thousands before us and who, if anyone is right. I mean people have been killing themselves over this for thousands of years so it's a hot topic and only one can be right. Or maybe they are all right because any such God may not care about the framework and process. Or there is simply nothing there. I'm not even going to get into the whole child abuse thing and profit, confessing to man, etc. Whoa, we could be here all night.

I personally have no idea but I keep an open mind so who knows what I will take to the grave, it ain't over yet. I don't know why some search and find God and speak of overwhelming emotion and love and others like me find nothing. I think of it like when you walk into a room and lock eyes with a stranger and boom, you fall in love. What the hell was that? Nothing to measure, nobody else can see it. You have not even met them yet. If I tell you that I just fell in love with a woman that I have never met, you have no idea if I am being truthful, you only see how excited I am. I cannot prove it but it's my truth. Additionally, two other guys walked in an hour ago and walked right past her and nothing. BTW, that's how it went with my wife. 22 years until death did we part and I had eyes for no other woman, not even 4 years after she passed. I guess falling in love with God, being enraptured with Jesus and the word is something like that, or at least for those that are true believers cuz that ain't always the case.

My wife and I had the greatest relationship ever. I went to her churches, had dinner with her pastors and families and even met with her pastor multiple times after her passing. Nice people, it was important to her so I respected it and supported her but for me personally, nothing ever happened. I even gave her eulogy in this big beautiful church and worked with the pastor's entire family to honor her memory with grace and beauty as she wanted it which was my pleasure. I have a place in my heart for everyone who is loving and sincere but I have no tolerance for violence in the name of a God, hatred and bigotry towards others beliefs, manifest destiny, religious wars, discrimination and non-tolerance. Those are the failings of garden variety human beings that do not actually carry the word and love of their God in their hearts. I still have dinner with my mother-in-law every single night. She is the most devout Christian I have ever met, so pure of heart and love for others, completely selfless and spends her entire day and week in the service of others and God through church, nursing homes, Bible study, and prayer groups. She's 86. I love her and spend time with her because she makes me a better person and I know that my wife who was her caregiver would want me to care for her and she deserves everything that I can offer her.

Carry on soldiers, finding truth ain't for sissies.

P.S. I think I repeated myself back there somewhere, I'm having my monthly chemo weekend and my brain is in the tank until around Tuesday.

George

All well said. I am not interested in converting someone to agnosticism or atheism. I am interested in helping people to think the whole thing through if they have a mind. There are young ones who are coming to terms with their spiritual life with conflicts in their families over religion and suffering over the issues of pulling away from the religion of their childhood.

I must admit I am wired up and committed to being logical, rational and adhering to the scientific method for the most part. I have emotions/feelings of course but they are more like the weather for me these days... they change and pass by. I am not one to go into mysticism it seems, although I can see how some people move in that direction and delved into that myself somewhat in the distant past. I just have concluded for me there is no way, so far anyway, for us to know about God on this side of death. On the other side of death, maybe there is a surprise in store or nothing. If there is a God, I figure that God is likely nothing like any we humans can conceive or conjure up.

My wife is an opposite than my type. She is a highly emotionally sensitive person who is frequently overcome with emotion and that is her dominant wiring she came with that at times is problematic for her. So folks are just different with different challenges as a result. I am stuck in the 60s. We all get by with a little help of our friends seems to me.

 

[Stuart-T]

Either you believe or you don't and it doesn't need to be proven empirically.

Atheists like me are not saying it has to be proven empirically. Only that a sufficient level of evidence should be presented to accept that a claim is likely true. Beliefs held without sufficient evidence only demonstrate that the believer does not care about if their belief is true or not. These beliefs may be useful, they may provide comfort and they may make you feel good. But if there is no sufficient warrant to accept that a claim is true - then the belief has no rational justification. It does not map to anything objectively real. And that's fine if people want to negotiate their way through life on this basis - I have no problem with that.

it's inherently unknowable.

How did you determine that?

If God revealed himself to the world in a way that his existence could not be refuted - we would have sufficient evidence and know he exists.

Dudes that die and come back as proof of heaven, inherently unprovable. It sells books though.

I am familiar with the claims of Dr. Eben Alexander. I have investigated it. He did not die. He was in a coma. He never died yet he claims he was in heaven. You may not know - but he only started recollecting this trip to heaven 3 months after he came out of the coma. Up to that point he had said nothing to anyone. Of course due to malpractice lawsuits he was in financial trouble. Kudos to him for creating a saleable narrative that the gullible and desperate were prepared to pay money for. Books about afterlife claims are big sellers - few people want to believe that when we die, the lights go out forever. An interminable sleep without dreams. That narrative does not sell.

BTW, that's how it went with my wife. 22 years until death did we part and I had eyes for no other woman, not even 4 years after she passed. I guess falling in love with God, being enraptured with Jesus and the word is something like that, or at least for those that are true believers cuz that ain't always the case.

With respect - it's not like that. You had absolute confirmation that your wife existed. You could see her, speak to her and get replies, touch her. You knew it was real - there was no possibility it was a delusion. You can't say the same for God/Jesus etc.

 

[GeorgeLG]

Atheists like me are not saying it has to be proven empirically. Only that a sufficient level of evidence should be presented to accept that a claim is likely true. Beliefs held without sufficient evidence only demonstrate that the believer does not care about if their belief is true or not. These beliefs may be useful, they may provide comfort and they may make you feel good. But if there is no sufficient warrant to accept that a claim is true - then the belief has no rational justification. It does not map to anything objectively real. And that's fine if people want to negotiate their way through life on this basis - I have no problem with that.

How did you determine that?

If God revealed himself to the world in a way that his existence could not be refuted - we would have sufficient evidence and know he exists.

I am familiar with the claims of Dr. Eben Alexander. I have investigated it. He did not die. He was in a coma. He never died yet he claims he was in heaven. You may not know - but he only started recollecting this trip to heaven 3 months after he came out of the coma. Up to that point he had said nothing to anyone. Of course due to malpractice lawsuits he was in financial trouble. Kudos to him for creating a saleable narrative that the gullible and desperate were prepared to pay money for. Books about afterlife claims are big sellers - few people want to believe that when we die, the lights go out forever. An interminable sleep without dreams. That narrative does not sell.

With respect - it's not like that. You had absolute confirmation that your wife existed. You could see her, speak to her and get replies, touch her. You knew it was real - there was no possibility it was a delusion. You can't say the same for God/Jesus etc.

I have made an assumption that physical proof does not and will not exist and so claims of proof because of only a personal emotion are pointless. If God reveals himself in the modern era in an indisputable form or way, then it would be knowable, I agree. My words would change considerably. Until then and from my perspective of many who have tried to convince me through "indisputable proof", it's a waste of time or at least that has no effect on my opinion or beliefs. Perhaps I should say if or when...

It appears that where we differ is that this lack of proof supports your position as an atheist which I assume is a belief that God does not exist whereas for me as an agnostic it merely means that I don't know and up to today, for me, it's unknowable. There is still time for it to be knowable by me or beyond me. In the end you may be right but we won't be here for eternity to settle the thing so you and I will likely depart this earth with the matter still open, or are you saying that for you it's not open at all, you know and will always know that God does not exist? I find that position as curious as the opposite. Proving the lack of existence of something is equally problematic for me anyhow.

I was freezing a point in time right before me and my wife first met and I became overwhelmed with emotion that is impossible to completely understand given that I had not yet met her. It is my attempt to understand a process that I myself have never gone through regarding religion that people I love claim so passionately. It is not a perfect analogy because as you say, she existed physically for all to see even if not met. After 25 years with hundreds of believers in my wife's extended family around me, it is the closest I can come to understanding this phenomenon. Some have said things like he appeared before me, or revealed himself. Again as you say, not the same because there are no "witnesses" in such an example but it's real to them and I'm just trying to understand what they have been through. Much to their frustration, I'm good with whatever my truth is and while I find the whole thing fascinating, I'm good with people having come to a different conclusion than me, even without so called proof.

It's personal, it's a journey of discovery and our personal truth. Well that and what country and family you were born into which, given the non-homogeneous dispersion of world wide belief systems, appears to be a heavy factor in all of this. It is hard for me to accept the concept that different Gods coexist and took up exact country borders to split things up or that a single God said you will be reincarnated, possibly as an animal or already have been but only right up to this arbitrary geographic border. The whole two Bible thing and first Jews are chosen but then they killed Jesus with the Romans which we are angry about but is necessary for the whole process to unfold. There is a lot about the whole thing that I have had difficulty with. Organized religion is unlikely where I will land if I ultimately decide that God exists. Too much human involvement.

It's all good brother. Judging from your picture and if I remember correctly, you have no terminal disease like me, so you will likely gather more data than me so send me an update if you get one but I'm not sure of the forwarding address.

George

 

[Jazzer]

This is true whether you are atheist or agnostic:

Ecclesiastes 11
As you do not know the path of the wind, or how the body is formed in a mother's womb, so you cannot understand the work of God, the Maker of all things.


Isaiah 55
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the LORD.

"As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Well - he would say that - wouldn't he. Is there any evidence for god / God?

Or is it:

 

[just1morething]

Well - he would say that - wouldn't he. Is there any evidence for god / God?

Or is it:

View attachment 53955

Are you content in turning into compost when you die?

 

[GeorgeLG]

Are you content in turning into compost when you die?

Personally I assume at this point that this is what happens so we need to make the best of our 80 or so years and leave behind the best legacy and memories in others since that is what will survive our earthly presence. Never waste a good day. That's been my plan during the second half of my life.

George

 

[Jazzer]

Are you content in turning into compost when you die?

Nobody on earth knows, nor can know, what if anything, happens after death.

All we can do is conjecture, which is pointless, and either invest in the possibility, or decide not to worry about it.

If you want to play safe then believe, or rather claim to believe.

But if your intellectual integrity is important to you, just go with your hunches I suppose.

 

[Stuart-T]

It appears that where we differ is that this lack of proof supports your position as an atheist which I assume is a belief that God does not exist whereas for me as an agnostic it merely means that I don't know and up to today, for me, it's unknowable.

Knowledge and belief are two different things. Knowledge implies something that is generally accepted as fact - belief implies something short of that but a high level of confidence that a claim is true. On this basis - do you believe there is a God? I also don't know if there is a God so we are the same there. I call myself an agnostic atheist.

I don't use the term proof as it implies certainty - in a mathematical sense. To say that theists lack proof is a bit misleading when they lack any sound evidence whatsoever. It would be better to say they can't support their claims.

So in the same way I believe fairies don't exist - I also believe no Gods exists. It is a belief, not a claim to knowledge. I think it is reasonable to say that without being pressed for supporting evidence. I could make a case for there being no God but not in this post.

or are you saying that for you it's not open at all, you know and will always know that God does not exist?

Theists would like me to say this - so they can say - ah ha! Another close minded atheist! And again - I do not assert that I know God does not exist. See my previous reply.

I am waiting and ready to be convinced there is a God so yes it is an open question.

I'm good with people having come to a different conclusion than me, even without so called proof

The belief in God is a truth claim. A claim about the objective reality. People may have their own personal paths etc - but if they believe in a God - this is a claim about our shared reality and needs to be supported with evidence. If they just want to believe what makes them feel good and comfortable etc with no evidence, that's fine with me. I do not wish to deprive anyone of the comfort of their beliefs. Life is hard enough as it is and a lucky feather can help one through day to day challenges.

 

[just1morething]

I am waiting and ready to be convinced there is a God so yes it is an open question.

You've already convinced yourself there is no God, so why debate it? There is more questions than answers, so it's futile to argue on this topic. People will believe what they believe. I respect people's beliefs, but don't want to argue back and forth on someone's supposedly intellectual opinions.

Who created us humans and all the animals? Who created the dinosaurs? I don't think they showed up out of thin air. I'm okay with people believing in whatever they want as long as it doesn't turn into a arguing match, which many times it does. It seems similar to the Democrats and Republicans arguing about their policies. I'm more on the Republican side because I think they make more sense.

I think I'm done on this thread.

@GeorgeLG, I'm very sorry to hear about the tragic loss of your wife. Life isn't fair. Do you actually have cancer yourself? I thought you mentioned chemotherapy, but I was unsure if you were referring to yourself or your wife.

 

[ZFire]

What do you guys think of the argument made by anti-theists that the existence of God would be rather AWFUL if true?

If there was an actual permanent (around the clock) divine supervision and invigilation of everything you did, where you would never have a waking or sleeping moment where you weren't being watched, controlled, and supervised by some celestial entity from the moment of conception until your death... well not even your death either because it's only after death where the real 'fun' begins. Anti-theists compare it to like living in North Korea.

 

[Lane]

Anti-theists compare it to like living in North Korea.

Hi @ZFire -- Not sure if your post was meant to be funny, but I thought it was because I've had similar thoughts! I guess it comes down to whether or not God is like a North Korean dictator who wants to control every aspect of your life, mostly to your detriment.

I think of God as a loving energy that is doing all it can to bring greater love and freedom of expression into our lives. In fact, I've run across spiritual literature that says that this greater expression of "life" is exactly what we're here to learn more about, and in the end--according to the "divine plan", God needs us as much as we need it. How's that for some sacrilegious thinking? Lol.

 

[GeorgeLG]

You've already convinced yourself there is no God, so why debate it? There is more questions than answers, so it's futile to argue on this topic. People will believe what they believe. I respect people's beliefs, but don't want to argue back and forth on someone's supposedly intellectual opinions.

Who created us humans and all the animals? Who created the dinosaurs? I don't think they showed up out of thin air. I'm okay with people believing in whatever they want as long as it doesn't turn into a arguing match, which many times it does. It seems similar to the Democrats and Republicans arguing about their policies. I'm more on the Republican side because I think they make more sense.

I think I'm done on this thread.

@GeorgeLG, I'm very sorry to hear about the tragic loss of your wife. Life isn't fair. Do you actually have cancer yourself? I thought you mentioned chemotherapy, but I was unsure if you were referring to yourself or your wife.

Thank you. My wife passed away from cancer (her 4th) and I have two cancers, one of them stage 4 and incurable. And of course I am here as well. Yes, sometimes life can be quite brutal and a challenge to face but what choice do we have except get on with it with grace and humility? My wife was a wonderful selfless person filled with love and charity for others, she taught me a lot. She was also a Christian as is her entire family. I am the only non-believer of the entire clan, immediate family and in-laws, on her side. We respected each other's beliefs and supported each other always. Some of the rest of her family, not so much. All the believers in my life have been taken by cancer in their 50 including all my friends and my mother. Well there is one left but he also has stage 4 cancer in his 40s. My dad was agnostic and lived to 92. My wife was 54. If there is a "plan," it is difficult for me to be enthusiastic about it.

If it's just life, then you push through and be the best person you can.

George

What do you guys think of the argument made by anti-theists that the existence of God would be rather AWFUL if true?

If there was an actual permanent (around the clock) divine supervision and invigilation of everything you did, where you would never have a waking or sleeping moment where you weren't being watched, controlled, and supervised by some celestial entity from the moment of conception until your death... well not even your death either because it's only after death where the real 'fun' begins. Anti-theists compare it to like living in North Korea.

I feel that most Gods are made in man's image. The 10 rules, the retribution, final judgement, eternal damnation, the stories. The big expensive buildings, wealth and power, all man. God looking like my bearded white grandfather and Jesus looking like Jared Leto seems like man's favorite images for relatable, easy consumption. Jesus was a simple man from a working class family, likely a Jewish middle eastern brown man. Today's televangelists drive Bentleys with private jets, I have read plenty of the Bible and I am pretty sure that's the root of all evil, not the conduit to heaven. Before that it was chariots and gilded horses buried in the stars.

A supreme being capable of the creation of the unimaginably vast and complex universe and infinitesimally small atomic level probably does not look like my grandfather and have diabetes and have cataracts. I think the ones that say we are looked after 24/7 want or fear this. Those who propose repeated re-incarnations until you get it right, want that. Harsh rules and eternal time outs, that's the preference. Love, acceptance, selflessness, etc comes from kind and generous people. I like hanging around the latter, not the North Korea adherents. Sounds like that place sucks.

George

 

[Jazzer]

What do you guys think of the argument made by anti-theists that the existence of God would be rather AWFUL if true?

If there was an actual permanent (around the clock) divine supervision and invigilation of everything you did, where you would never have a waking or sleeping moment where you weren't being watched, controlled, and supervised by some celestial entity from the moment of conception until your death... well not even your death either because it's only after death where the real 'fun' begins. Anti-theists compare it to like living in North Korea.

You are quoting from 'Hitch,' a wonderful free thinker.

If this God wants to throw us into 'lakes of fire,' according to Matthew, I think, on balance, I'd prefer to give it a miss.

You've already convinced yourself there is no God, so why debate it?

It is an enigma that confronts us all.

We cannot know the answer - hence the intrigue.

And anyway - why debate anything?

Kicking a theological ball about is fun - unless you happen to be a Christian - when it may feel like a threat to your long held beliefs, because you've already convinced yourself.

 

[ZFire]

quoting from 'Hitch,' a wonderful free thinker.

If this God wants to throw us into 'lakes of fire,' according to Matthew, I think, on balance, I'd prefer to give it a miss.

Indeed. Hitchens was one of the biggest proponent of anti-theism of our time. He was so well-equipped to debate on that matter. God is Not Great is still one of the more fascinating books that I've ever read. Very eye opening.

Sam Harris and Dawkins are great too, but nobody has opened my eyes about religion more than the comedian, George Carlin. This video right here rocked my world almost 15 years ago.

 

[just1morething]

Thank you. My wife passed away from cancer (her 4th) and I have two cancers, one of them stage 4 and incurable. And of course I am here as well. Yes, sometimes life can be quite brutal and a challenge to face but what choice do we have except get on with it with grace and humility

I'm so sorry, I don't know what to say. I suppose I would think the same as you do under your circumstances.

I woke up at 3:30 am and my left ear is blaring away. I don't know how to get back to sleep without taking a sleeping pill. ENT visit yesterday was not much help, although he did order an MRI of my head and ear. I still have a little hope that inflammation of my left jaw could be causing my noise, but maybe my airplane barotrauma in 2008 caused inner ear damage and this noise will be a lifelong condition.

Life is so short the way it is, and for both you and your wife to have cancer is unimaginable. I realize that no afterlife is easier to understand than turning into a spirit or whatever the Bible says. Being us humans can talk, reason, and even cry, would seem to separate us from the animal kingdom. Even the animal kingdom has it tough in the wild as I see deer every day struggling to survive. Most of them look quite healthy though, but their lifespan is very short.

And anyway - why debate anything?

Kicking a theological ball about is fun - unless you happen to be a Christian - when it may feel like a threat to your long held beliefs, because you've already convinced yourself.

I'm not sure it's fun for anyone with a chronic condition that is torturing them. I did not say I was a Christian, but it seems they have a better outlook in life. Of course most of them don't have any serious health issues to deal with.

 

[Mister Muso]

It is not an outlier - Jesus references hell several times in the gospel and interestingly he alone references hell. I am prepared to send you verses if you wish, though I suspect it is not that big an issue for you. The word used for hell is the place where they sent all the rubbish and even dead bodies to be burned etc - seems like a good enough metaphor for an actual hell as many have come to understand it.

No - others have maybe fabricated events and you are interpreting to suit your idea of what is good. Which is why so many Christians no longer believe in a literal hell where the non believers go to suffer for eternity. It just doesn't seem right! Yet that seems to be what Jesus does preach. St. Paul also references hell as a real place.

That is not my position. Much of what is in the Bible is true and verifiable. That which is unverifiable, I do not have an issue with accepting it is true - except for those claims which do not comport with reality, the supernatural and miracle claims for example and of course the resurrection.

Which atheists? And which in particular beliefs do they cling to? As an atheist - I am curious to know your answer.

Yes - a ready made community of peers which accepts you with open arms is a wonderful feeling. And we know that people who feel included and appreciated generally do better than those who are isolated and feel rejected. The same is true for other communities - Islam - Hindus - various sects - Scientology (e.g., Tom Cruise). Does that mean all those religions are true?

In what way were their lives more purposeful?

Yes, I would want some of that too - though all the congregations where I live are like average age 80 and half have walking sticks. You say you could not explain it away - what is there to explain? If this is your reason for belief - it's not a solid one. We should not accept claims because we can't think of any other explanation for something - though this is how many Theists arrive at belief in God (I can't think how the first self replicating cell emerged so I will go with the God hypothesis. I can't think where a God emerged from either but let's just say the God always existed).

No but I will take a look.

It's not the role of any discipline to invent answers and not provide sound evidence.

You are arguing against the same thing as I am - the medieval idea of eternal conscious torment for eternity. The language of the Bible times was rich in metaphor, and Jesus said early on that all his public teaching would be in parable form. We have been conditioned by 2000 years of failure on the part of the church, including the bloodthirsty Middle Ages and the intolerant fundamentalism that still exists today. Early church fathers like Origen and Gregory taught universal salvation, and they learned directly from the disciples themselves. Even Paul hints about it at times. The God I believe in is far more tolerant and inclusive than many Christians you are likely to meet. As Archbishop Tutu said, "I don't want to go to a homophobic heaven. I'd rather go to the other place!" So if my views don't put me at home with the majority of Christians or atheists of today, I'm prepared to stand or fall by them.

Throwing a theological ball about is fun - unless you happen to be a Christian - when it may feel like a threat to your long held beliefs, because you've already convinced yourself.

So you're saying Christians are the only ones here with a made-up mind?

Now that's funny!

 

[Stuart-T]

You are arguing against the same thing as I am - the medieval idea of eternal conscious torment for eternity.

True. I am arguing against that or at least saying I can't find any good reason for that belief, but I can't find any good reason for belief in any God - no matter how benevolent and good.

 

[Stuart-T]

What do you guys think of the argument made by anti-theists that the existence of God would be rather AWFUL if true?

If there was an actual permanent (around the clock) divine supervision and invigilation of everything you did, where you would never have a waking or sleeping moment where you weren't being watched, controlled, and supervised by some celestial entity from the moment of conception until your death... well not even your death either because it's only after death where the real 'fun' begins. Anti-theists compare it to like living in North Korea.

The idea that God is monitoring 6 billion people 24/7 - I would feel very sorry for that God - what a boring way to spend time.

 

[Mister Muso]

And I can't find one good reason to stop believing. I can't give you any one reason that would convince you to change your mind either, but the weight of evidence for me tilts me towards belief.

Maybe some people are more naturally inclined towards faith than others. I just think the church has done such a bad job most of the time representing God, that he has to have a Plan B.

 

[Stuart-T]

And I can't find one good reason to stop believing. I can't give you any one reason that would convince you to change your mind either, but the weight of evidence for me tilts me towards belief.

Maybe some people are more naturally inclined towards faith than others. I just think the church has done such a bad job most of the time representing God, that he has to have a Plan B.

Give me your best evidence.

I have heard some real gems from theists on this board - like "dinosaurs don't come out of thin air."

So then - let's hear your best reason for belief.

 

[just1morething]

I have heard some real gems from theists on this board - like "dinosaurs don't come out of thin air."

There is no evidence other than "Near Death Experiences". How do you think dinosaurs were created in your best opinion?

 

[Stuart-T]

There is no evidence other than "Near Death Experiences". How do you think dinosaurs were created in your best opinion?

OK. I will answer you.

About dinosaurs - are you familiar with the theory of evolution?

Near Death Experiences (NDE) - I have something to say about that.

We have all heard of reports of people whose hearts have stopped and are subsequently resuscitated and who report feelings of peace - a light at the end of a tunnel etc. There are even claims about people floating around in the operating theatre watching themselves being resuscitated.

There are two classes of studies.

Class A: Books of compiled NDE stories being sold on amazon by the million. Stories going back decades - all unconfirmed. The thinking is - so many stories - so many claims - why would they lie - ergo - there must be an afterlife - ergo - there must be a God.

Class B: Proper clinical studies. The biggest of these, the AWARE studies carried out by NDE enthusiast and researcher Sam Parnia - a man who believes that NDEs indicate something supernatural exists beyond death. Study 1 carried out in actual hospitals were patients being revived over several years. Of 2100 attempted resuscitations - data could only be collected in 120 cases. Those who survived filled in a questionnaire about the experience. Of those 120 - only 6 reported anything at all. Of those 6 - only 1 reported something that could be verified - hearing the sounds of the defibrillator at a time when her heart had stopped. There was an AWARE II study in which those who were being resuscitated had EEG brain activity monitored. The EEG showed brain activity when the heart had stopped on many occasions - confounding claims that something was going on when the brain activity had ceased.

Sam Parnia's take on 10 years worth of research, "some interesting findings and more studies are needed."

One big fat ZERO.

If NDEs were anything more than a dying brain giving the person some comfort in the last moments with feelings and images, floating experiences or whatever - I would have thought Parnia's actual studies would have provided some support for the supernatural claims - but they don't. He even put a digital display up on the ceiling with a number on it for the souls floating around; if they see the number they can report what it is - no positive result. No souls floated and no souls saw anything at all. Why not? Well - maybe there is no soul to float.

So - that's your NDE so called evidence. Believe in God on this basis if you want. In my view - it is nothing.

 

[tpj]

The idea that God is monitoring 6 billion people 24/7 - I would feel very sorry for that God - what a boring way to spend time.

I have this image of God thinking I'll just read a good book instead. Perhaps 'The God Delusion'?

 

[GeorgeLG]

And I can't find one good reason to stop believing. I can't give you any one reason that would convince you to change your mind either, but the weight of evidence for me tilts me towards belief.

Maybe some people are more naturally inclined towards faith than others. I just think the church has done such a bad job most of the time representing God, that he has to have a Plan B.

If you are a good person and are not hurting anybody, which I assume that you are, then I am glad that your faith helps or comforts you.

I think that some people are definitely more in need of answers about the big eternal questions of life, the universe, evil, etc and finding comfort about what brings confusion or fear. Then there is the whole "just in case" thing which I have heard a lot. Family and culture are big factors. I gave up trying to change anybody's mind about this long ago. I have concluded that it is personal and our individual truth. I have spent my life as an independent thinker frequently at odds with other opinions and so enlisting others to think like me or trying to validate my thinking through others is of no interest or value. The last ten years of my career was spent being sent to large failed corporate businesses and fixing them. I always started off being very isolated doing very innovative and fast paced things, oftentimes being called crazy or told constantly that this won't work and then after a return to substantial profitability, saving factories and jobs - I was once again a "genius" (not my words). Went through that arc multiple times.

Independent thinking is often a lonely place. I find myself there again often in investing as well. I always find that the masses are light on actual research and knowledge of facts and history and very prone to emotional decision making and confirmation bias so I don't find their opinions particularly interesting or useful, especially if heavy lifting is required except from a few exceptional people. Around 1500 the heliocentric solar system model (which was eventually shown to be accurate) was so controversial that the church labeled it as heresy. There is an interesting history of that evolving science and church doctrine with Copernicus, Kepler and Galileo. I was just told recently that dinosaur bones were put there by God to trick us. I guess that settles the whole 5,000 year vs 65 million year thing. Ideas are very sticky and present great resistance. People like their shit settled with a club to validate and dig in against all challengers. Look at the Catholic church abuse scandal after the Boston Globe broke the story to the world. I looked it up a few years later and membership was up. That was some pretty dramatic new information challenging that morale authority and not even that could change the opinion of the masses. Next to that, I got nuthin' so I'll just carry on coming up with my personal conclusions.

As I stated earlier, I have searched and found nothing on this subject but I am not bothered by that result. I am more bothered by the constant stream of people that are bothered by my conclusion even though I don't offer it most of the time. My presence in this thread is a rare exception but even here I don't want to change anyone's mind or challenge how they got there. Given my extensive personal loss of the last few years and my current situation, now what I care about most is spending my time only with kind and caring people that have my back and will not harm me as so many have throughout my life. I have disassociated from many "friends" and family, and have a small core of loved ones who are very special to me and we have each other's backs. I guess in a way that is my religion: character, dependable, love, kindness, in the service of others, searching, learning, leaving the world having made it better. In the words of my wife at the end of her life: "I don't want to die but I am not afraid to die".

EDIT: I just saw that moments before I finished this post, another poster brought up dinosaurs. LOL.

Give me your best evidence.

I have heard some real gems from theists on this board - like "dinosaurs don't come out of thin air."

So then - let's hear your best reason for belief.

@Stuart-T, no disrespect intended but I am genuinely curious about this. Why is it so import for you to get believers to provide satisfactory proof of the existence of God? Is it because you are trying to back them into the presumed corner and admit that it can't be proven? Are you really wanting and trying to find that proof to help you get there? Are you generally unsettled by any arguments or position based on emotion or gut feeling with no hard "proof" or evidence? I have no beef with you, I don't even know you but I am always curious why so many people take this position and would like to understand it better. Why does it matter to you if a person believes in an unproven concept? I find that to be half the entire population.

George