Agnostics “R” Us...

[Henry Orlando FL]

People generally are evidence oriented in their life decisions though. Who buys a house without the evidence of a survey to have it checked over? Who buys a car without doing a basic mechanical check? We rarely take things on faith when something important is at stake. Yet this one sphere - the religious sphere, the one sphere which could potentially consume masses of time and money - people are prepared to take a chance in faith and disregard the burden of proof which all claims must meet to be accepted. But if they can take Christianity on faith - why not Islam? Why not Hinduism? Scientology?

Well - I think the overturning of Roe vs Wade proves that religious belief can affect people's rights. And we have the Catholic Church to thank for AIDS in Africa, overpopulation in countries, due to the suppression of contraception where Catholicism has influence. Not to mention all of the evils beings done in the name of Islam. Sure - the sweet old dears singing songs of praise in the pews of Southern Baptist churches are doing no harm to anybody as such - but I would argue the world needs to start leaving religion and superstition behind. The good being done by religions - say charity - often comes at a price. Take our money - take our God.

You write how religious belief can affect people's rights. Little question that is accurate. At least the preponderance of the evidence indicates that is the case. You would probably find this article of interest. It is from the New York Times:

Do You Live in a 'Tight' State or a 'Loose' One? Turns Out It Matters Quite a Bit.

The link should work for you even if you do not have a subscription, although you might have to copy and paste it into your browser.

 

[GeorgeLG]

People generally are evidence oriented in their life decisions though. Who buys a house without the evidence of a survey to have it checked over? Who buys a car without doing a basic mechanical check? We rarely take things on faith when something important is at stake. Yet this one sphere - the religious sphere, the one sphere which could potentially consume masses of time and money - people are prepared to take a chance in faith and disregard the burden of proof which all claims must meet to be accepted. But if they can take Christianity on faith - why not Islam? Why not Hinduism? Scientology?

Well - I think the overturning of Roe vs Wade proves that religious belief can affect people's rights. And we have the Catholic Church to thank for AIDS in Africa, overpopulation in countries, due to the suppression of contraception where Catholicism has influence. Not to mention all of the evils beings done in the name of Islam. Sure - the sweet old dears singing songs of praise in the pews of Southern Baptist churches are doing no harm to anybody as such - but I would argue the world needs to start leaving religion and superstition behind. The good being done by religions - say charity - often comes at a price. Take our money - take our God.

I agree that there are plenty of evidence-based decisions being made but there are also metric shit tons of beliefs being formed and sides taken every day without it or based on lies and mistruths, many of them easily verified or disproven. I guess that's why the old adage involves religion and politics. Humans are a curious bunch in that they will do evidence-based research to buy a refrigerator but yet accept guidance on something as serious as eternity or leadership of an entire country without it. In many cases I think it's need meets need.

George

 

[just1morething]

Several people have told me this is our only life. Others I know that are Christians believe there is an afterlife. I was just thinking about Buddism and the possibility of reincarnation. Is it possible that I could turn into a beautiful warthog in my next life? This one seems to attract birds.

 

[Henry Orlando FL]

Several people have told me this is our only life. Others I know that are Christians believe there is an afterlife. I was just thinking about Buddism and the possibility of reincarnation. Is it possible that I could turn into a beautiful warthog in my next life? This one seems to attract birds.

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Ah your post reminds me of Joseph Campbell (University Professor who studied myths and comparative religion) who did a series in the USA decades ago called "The Power of Myth" on Public Broadcasting. The series was wonderful back in the late 1980s. It is free on YouTube here:

 

[Stuart-T]

I agree that there are plenty of evidence-based decisions being made but there are also metric shit tons of beliefs being formed and sides taken every day without it or based on lies and mistruths, many of them easily verified or disproven. I guess that's why the old adage involves religion and politics. Humans are a curious bunch in that they will do evidence-based research to buy a refrigerator but yet accept guidance on something as serious as eternity or leadership of an entire country without it. In many cases I think it's need meets need.

George

Yes, there are flat earth and other conspiracies and science denial (climate change, vaccinations).

On a more trivial level I noticed many people believe something if it takes their fancy and they have put little thought into it. For example - I have a friend who told me she knows the pyramids were built by ancient aliens. She has seen a show on YouTube etc. I'm afraid I put my skeptic's hat on and maybe insulted her a bit. I did look into it and none of her claims were true. The show's researchers are not proper academics - they are journalists. They also do not claim that aliens did it - just - we can't figure out how the Egyptians did it so maybe - just maybe - it was aliens. In fact - Egyptologists do know the engineering - how it was done. The whole aliens stuff has no credibiliy at all. But I never returned to the subject with her - sometimes friendships are more important than proving a point.

 

[just1morething]

@Henry Orlando FL, I would like to be in Orlando right now, although it's starting to warm up here in southern Minnesota. I drove all the way down to Naples a couple times. My tinnitus kind of limits my driving lately.

 

[GeorgeLG]

You write how religious belief can affect people's rights. Little question that is accurate. At least the preponderance of the evidence indicates that is the case. You would probably find this article of interest. It is from the New York Times:

Do You Live in a 'Tight' State or a 'Loose' One? Turns Out It Matters Quite a Bit.

The link should work for you even if you do not have a subscription, although you might have to copy and paste it into your browser.

@Henry Orlando FL, interesting article, thanks.

 

[Lane]

Hey @Jazzer -- I think you might enjoy the following (pretty amazing) story about a connection between a little girl and an egret. Don't know if it touches on the issue of whether or not God exists, but it might...

Soul-to-Soul Connection - 6 min.

 

[Stuart-T]

I watched a discussion on YouTube yesterday about the origins of religions and why humans seem to be predisposed to religion. Very interesting. Terror Management Theory was in discussion - the idea that we live in a world where certain factors are beyond our control. We have to deal with the terror of both predictable and unpredictable forces - as individuals, and as communities. So communities faced with crop failures and the terror of the demise of their tribe turned to the Gods and did things to appease them to recover their crops. Individuals faced with the extinction of death developed a religion which offered an afterlife, to mitigate this terror. A hotline to God - via daily prayers - can skew the seemingly chaotic forces in the world in your favour.

There is much more to it of course and here is the link to the talk if anyone is interested:

 

[ZFire]

Lots of great conversations happening here. I find myself agreeing with many of @Stuart-T's points, but I also want to commend theists and believers (and spiritual folks too) who have participated in this thread. You guys are practically entering a lion's den, so kudos to you all.

The origin of the first self-replicating cell is unknown. But the Miller–Urey experiments showed how organic molecules can form certain amino acids crucial to life under certain conditions.

If I recall, those same amino acids have also been found on asteroids which could explain how they originated on Earth to begin with. According to leading hypotheses, it's also how water (H2O) might have came to Earth as well. The heavy bombardment on Earth (over the course of time) by comets, icy asteroids, and meteors, of which some of those rocky objects were carrying the building blocks of life seems like a really plausible theory.

 

[Stuart-T]

Lots of great conversations happening here. I find myself agreeing with many of @Stuart-T's points, but I also want to commend theists and believers (and spiritual folks too) who have participated in this thread. You guys are practically entering a lion's den, so kudos to you all.

If I recall, those same amino acids have also been found on asteroids which could explain how they originated on Earth to begin with. According to leading hypotheses, it's also how water (H2O) might have came to Earth as well. The heavy bombardment on Earth (over the course of time) by comets, icy asteroids, and meteors, of which some of those rocky objects were carrying the building blocks of life seems like a really plausible theory.

The really interesting question is not where water and amino acids came from - it is how the first self-replicating cells emerged. They obviously did emerge - otherwise we would not be here. But it may be some time before we work out the exact way it happened.

 

[Stuart-T]

You guys are practically entering a lion's den.

I would not say that - the sensibilities of theists is being well looked after on here. I do find it odd though - if you are a theist going into a thread entitled Agnostics R Us - you should not expect to have non believers tip toeing around your beliefs.

 

[just1morething]

I would love to see these huge creatures today if they lived on some island. There is some similarities between dinosaurs, animals, and humans. We will probably never know if man evolved or was created. All I know for sure is life is short and some people get terrible afflictions and we all die. Many things have no explanation and I wonder if it's worth analyzing them when many people just argue.

 

[just1morething]

Human to dinosaur size comparison. I didn't realize there were so many dinosaurs.

 

[Stuart-T]

Many things have no explanation and I wonder if it's worth analyzing them when many people just argue.

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The development and diversity of life is explained by the theory of evolution by natural selection - supported by physical evidence.

The origin of the universe is explained by big bang cosmology and supported by evidence.

This is not an argument - just statement of facts.

But I am not qualified to give you science lessons.

I suggest maybe you should go to the University of Harvard website - they have some excellent explanations for lay people on evolution and cosmology.

 

[just1morething]

If dinosaurs evolved into humans over millions of years, at what point did our tails fall off? I sort of want my tail back, even though we would have to modify our clothing a bit.

 

[ZFire]

would love to see these huge creatures today if they lived on some island.

Modern birds are living dinosaurs (descendants of avian dinosaurs), so you have already seen dinosaurs today, technically speaking.

We will probably never know if man evolved or was created.

The stages of human evolution:

The discovery of Homo Erectus (the middle one in the pic above) fossils was the missing link that finally connected us to apes and the first of our relatives to have human-like body proportions. We are primates. Humans and chimpanzee share nearly identical DNA (almost 99%).

Many things have no explanation and I wonder if it's worth analyzing them when many people just argue.

I wonder which class of species will be next to rule this planet once the age of primates comes to an end. I'm thinking the age of insects will be up next. Bees and termites are sophisticated creatures.

The age of reptiles → the age of primates → the age of insects.

 

[Stuart-T]

If dinosaurs evolved into humans over millions of years, at what point did our tails fall off? I sort of want my tail back, even though we would have to modify our clothing a bit.

Dinosaurs did not evolve into humans. Dinosaurs went extinct and modern humans evolved from early primates much later. Man did not evolve from any of the primates we see on earth today. The primates we see on earth today (e.g., chimps) evolved, as man did, from early primates.

The stages of human evolution:

View attachment 54141

As I am sure you are aware, there were tens of thousands of tiny incremental changes over two million years or so which added up to very big differences we see in these illustrations.

 

[momus]

I discovered this little gem at the library today. I love the title, especially the part about the "Demonic Nuns". Before I escaped, I was in a Catholic school, and those nuns had even the priests terrorized. Technically, I may not be 100% Agnostic because I've been a Zen practitioner for a long time. But as Zen doesn't have any beliefs, dogmas, or deities (personal or otherwise), it's pretty darned close. You could always excommunicate me, that might be fun :>)

 

[Henry Orlando FL]

I discovered this little gem at the library today. I love the title, especially the part about the "Demonic Nuns". Before I escaped, I was in a Catholic school, and those nuns had even the priests terrorized. Technically, I may not be 100% Agnostic because I've been a Zen practitioner for a long time. But as Zen doesn't have any beliefs, dogmas, or deities (personal or otherwise), it's pretty darned close. You could always excommunicate me, that might be fun :>)

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Well yes, an interesting issue of is a Zen Buddhist an Agnostic or not. I do know that Zen is non-theistic and even Atheistic or at least Agnostic in the sense of the whole question of God existing or not is just not a useful thing to dwell upon as nobody can know yes or no, thus very Agnostic.

Then, I would say it could depend on do you believe in reincarnation and how you think reincarnation came about. I have not read much on how various Buddhist traditions explain who, what, how reincarnation began other than the somewhat cosmic force of Brahman in Hinduism which is all too close to a God in my book that Secular Buddhism asserts just could not be shaken off by the Buddhists since that belief was so entrenched in the world view of those in India at the time.

Tough to apply physics, chemistry, big bang, evolution, and the like to how reincarnation came to be. I have read it is not required to believe in reincarnation to be a Zen Buddhist, at least in some traditions, although reincarnation is central to Hinduism, Buddhism in general and Zen as well.

As a person who is into Secular Buddhism, I am agnostic on reincarnation as well as God. Why? Ah the usual issue of no conclusive evidence. So maybe you should be technically drummed out of the Agnostic order. On the whole Catholic School experience of mine, it was a quite wonderful delusion with no terrifying nuns, priests or abuse either. But I was only in Catholic school for 3, 4, 5 and 6th grades in the USA. I really believed it all hook, line and sinker since I had not reached the age of abstract reasoning (kicks in at age 11 or 12 for most) as yet. When that kicked in, I was gone on being Catholic and ultimately into Agnosticism landing in Secular Buddhism although that took a few decades to get to that place.

 

[Elmer B Fuddled]

Well yes, an interesting issue of is a Zen Buddhist an Agnostic or not. I do know that Zen is non-theistic and even Atheistic or at least Agnostic in the sense of the whole question of God existing or not is just not a useful thing to dwell upon as nobody can know yes or no, thus very Agnostic.

Then, I would say it could depend on do you believe in reincarnation and how you think reincarnation came about. I have not read much on how various Buddhist traditions explain who, what, how reincarnation began other than the somewhat cosmic force of Brahman in Hinduism which is all too close to a God in my book that Secular Buddhism asserts just could not be shaken off by the Buddhists since that belief was so entrenched in the world view of those in India at the time.

Tough to apply physics, chemistry, big bang, evolution, and the like to how reincarnation came to be. I have read it is not required to believe in reincarnation to be a Zen Buddhist, at least in some traditions, although reincarnation is central to Hinduism, Buddhism in general and Zen as well.

As a person who is into Secular Buddhism, I am agnostic on reincarnation as well as God. Why? Ah the usual issue of no conclusive evidence. So maybe you should be technically drummed out of the Agnostic order. On the whole Catholic School experience of mine, it was a quite wonderful delusion with no terrifying nuns, priests or abuse either. But I was only in Catholic school for 3, 4, 5 and 6th grades in the USA. I really believed it all hook, line and sinker since I had not reached the age of abstract reasoning (kicks in at age 11 or 12 for most) as yet. When that kicked in, I was gone on being Catholic and ultimately into Agnosticism landing in Secular Buddhism although that took a few decades to get to that place.

Hey, maybe ya ought to ask the Dolly Lama about which "God" said it's OK to be a pedophile.

 

[GeorgeLG]

I often wonder how much of all of this is what you are taught to believe by family and culture, what is passed down. I have met some who were not raised in religious homes that became believers so the family component is not entirely necessary but that seems to be the smaller set. At least as many seem to go the other way like @Henry Orlando FL. It's interesting to me that missionaries have to be sent to isolated countries to inject this into their culture where it does not exist after thousands of years. Or we go there and start the process like the American Indians. In these places the preferred God is not found naturally.

 

[just1morething]

@GeorgeLG, can I ask why your cancer is terminal? Maybe you said in an earlier post. The woman that I bought my hearing aids from has ovarian cancer that spread. She goes to MD Anderson in Houston every week or so for treatment from what I've heard.

She lost about 50 pounds and wears a wig. She lives less than 2 hours from Mayo Rochester, but apparently they can't or won't treat her for some reason. I believe they removed her original tumor.

 

[Stuart-T]

I've been a Zen practitioner for a long time.

View attachment 54165

What does that involve?

 

[just1morething]

Do you believe in human evolution? @tpj?

 

[Elmer B Fuddled]

It's interesting to me that missionaries have to be sent to isolated countries to inject this into their culture where it does not exist after thousands of years. Or we go there and start the process like the American Indians. In these places the preferred God is not found naturally.

Or the missionaries are sent there because they were caught molesting children in the name of some God.

 

[tpj]

Do you believe in human evolution? @tpj?

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Bloody hell. YOU are a lost cause @just1morething.

 

[just1morething]

Bloody hell. YOU are a lost cause @just1morething.

It was meant to humor you. I don't even know who is the head of the Australian government to be honest with you.

 

[tpj]

It was meant to humor you. I don't even know who is the head of the Australian government to be honest with you.

My comment was meant to humour you. I know you're just mucking around with me.

 

[Elmer B Fuddled]

Do you believe in human evolution? @tpj?

View attachment 54174

That last one is not homo sapiens, that's evolution producing Moronieniens or plainly Trumpiens, a dying species.