All Things Are Possible to Him Who Believes.

[Sjoerd]

Hey Rich!



"Listen! A farmer went out to plant some seeds. As he scattered them across his field, some seeds fell on a footpath, and the birds came and ate them. Other seeds fell on shallow soil with underlying rock. The seeds sprouted quickly because the soil was shallow. But the plants soon wilted under the hot sun, and since they didn't have deep roots, they died. Other seeds fell among thorns that grew up and choked out the tender plants. Still other seeds fell on fertile soil, and they produced a crop that was thirty, sixty, and even a hundred times as much as had been planted! Anyone with ears to hear should listen and understand."

"Now listen to the explanation of the parable about the farmer planting seeds: The seed that fell on the footpath represents those who hear the message about the Kingdom and don't understand it. Then the evil one comes and snatches away the seed that was planted in their hearts. The seed on the rocky soil represents those who hear the message and immediately receive it with joy. But since they don't have deep roots, they don't last long. They fall away as soon as they have problems or are persecuted for believing God's word. The seed that fell among the thorns represents those who hear God's word, but all too quickly the message is crowded out by the worries of this life and the lure of wealth, so no fruit is produced. The seed that fell on good soil represents those who truly hear and understand God's word and produce a harvest of thirty, sixty, or even a hundred times as much as had been planted!"

And what's your point? I think I would take anybody about 10 minutes to rewrite this story so the end conclusion would be: god does not exist. For example: The seeds that fell among the thorns represent those people captured by faith and are scared of/by the dark angles from hell.

And........ in my country "thank god" the churches are emptier than ever before....I guess finally the seeds on shallow ground are whitering in the sun.

You see how easy it is to use these analogies to support anything you like....?!

 

[Mark Beehre]

And what's your point? I think I would take anybody about 10 minutes to rewrite this story so the end conclusion would be: god does not exist. For example: The seeds that fell among the thorns represent those people captured by faith and are scared of/by the dark angles from hell.

And........ in my country "thank god" the churches are emptier than ever before....I guess finally the seeds on shallow ground are whitering in the sun.

You see how easy it is to use these analogies to support anything you like....?!

My point was simply. Some people get it, some people think they have it and some people don't get it at all. Does that cause offence?

 

[RichL]

Hi @Mark Beehre , I am good today compered to how bad I have been lately with my H, (edited), hope your doing better these days.

You raise a very valid point, in fact it is highly rational to want proof.

I don't want or need proof to be comfortable in my beliefs.

I just thought I would share my testimony here. I have never had a physical encounter with God in the sense I have seen him or heard an audible voice. But I have had other signs.

Well I'm glad that you are not one of these Christians that hear voices in your head,(or think you do), that must mean their is still some sense of level headedness,(is that a word?) in you!

Everyday you demonstrate faith. Faith that your car will start. Faith that you will be home in time for dinner. Faith that your business client will show up at the prearranged time as agreed, so you aren't unfamiliar with it.

Faith or is that hope?

To have faith in a physical occurrence is not blind faith as is faith in an invisible all seeing and knowing spirit creature, that even your not sure even exists, unfortunately a bad example from yourself.

Extract's from a book that I don't think is divinely inspired, but words of ancient man, is not going to persuade me to take you or any religious person seriously.

If you want to alter my thinking, provide me with evidence of the bibles validity as anything more than a history book written by man.
Their is nothing in the bible that makes me think it is divinely inspired or the word of God!

I suppose I could tell you elusively that my heart was moved like other Christians...seems that we speak a different language to everyone else...then they ask why everyone thinks we are brainwashed! .

Ha ha, we can agree.

 

[Sjoerd]

My point was simply. Some people get it, some people think they have it and some people don't get it at all. Does that cause offence?

I am not easily offended...

My point is: what you define is "IT" in: some people get "IT" can be anything you like it to be. The entire analogie becomes kind of pointless --> it will only reinforce what you already believe.

 

[Mark Beehre]

Hi @Mark Beehre , I am good, hope your doing better these days.



I don't want or need proof to be comfortable in my beliefs.



Well I'm glad that you are not one of these Christians that hear voices in your head,(or think you do), that must mean their is still some sense of level headedness,(is that a word?) in you!



Faith or is that hope?

To have faith in a physical occurrence is not blind faith as is faith in an invisible all seeing and knowing spirit creature, that even your not sure even exists, unfortunately a bad example from yourself.

Extract's from a book that I don't think is divinely inspired, but words of ancient man, is not going to persuade me to take you or any religious person seriously.

If you want to alter my thinking, provide me with evidence of the bibles validity as anything more than a history book written by man.
Their is nothing in the bible that makes me think it is divinely inspired or the word of God!



Ha ha, we can agree.

Hey Rich, yeah still going. My reactivity has yet to settle, but I'm seeing Grant Searchfield in Auckland in a few weeks!

In my opinion faith and hope are the same thing. The bible says that faith is the substance of all that is hoped for, evidence of all things unseen. Given you do not believe the bible is inspired by God there is not much more I can say. I don't intend disrespect, but it is the foundation of Christian faith, without it there is no faith in God, at least the Christian one. So the truth as I see it eludes you, or the truth as you see it eludes me. That's why I mentioned that parable written by Jesus. You either get it or you don't. The same could be said from your perspective.

 

[Mark Beehre]

I am not easily offended...

My point is: what you define is "IT" in: some people get "IT" can be anything you like it to be. The entire analogie becomes kind of pointless --> it will only reinforce what you already believe.

Yes. I suppose it's my way of saying that men can't convince you to believe in God, only he can do that and it's a unique experience. My encounters my moments have been personal and different from other friends in the faith.

Jesus never argued when he taught, his teachings were either accepted or rejected. If they were rejected he moved on. The only people he criticised were the religious. Oh the irony!

 

[RichL]

Given you do not believe the bible is inspired by God there is not much more I can say.

I believe you are correct, like I said until you or anyone for that matter, can offer me a descent argument, with any sort of evidence that the bible is divinely inspired, I need not offer anymore!

You seem like a reasonable Christian Mark, that is at least willing and open to accept valid points from any side of an argument!
That is a good trait!

 

[Sjoerd]

Jesus never argued when he taught, his teachings were either accepted or rejected. If they were rejected he moved on.

On the internet we call this practice phishing.

The only people he criticised were the religious. Oh the irony!

Because the people who do not believe do not care if they get criticized by christ. Again, if you do not believe the criticism is meaningless.The end results is: people who criticize christ will move on....and those that do not will keep on listening to his stories to the end of times...isn't that nice....?!

 

[Sjoerd]

I'm not exactly looking for here and my patience is admittedly wearing thin in a thread that goes against my grain. God or any religion is about power. Without its power by those who wield it, there is no controlling of the masses. We appear to believe the same thing.

With Joe, it's simple - it seems. That is to ignore those who don't believe and give some sort of platitude to those who do. I don't want to follow in his footsteps. I'd rather take a higher road. I'd also rather see a locked thread.

I don't understand this: "That why most people with a delusion are in a mental hospital..." So long as those people with faith are walking around and not shoving my face in it, I don't care. I walked down 5th Ave. in NY's Gay Pride
march for a number of years, there were always zealot's at various churches yelling obscenities at us. I was initially pissed off and then used another tactic - being nice and smiling. I'm just tired of the nuttiness. I'm leaving people alone. Arguing with religious people gets me nowhere outside and inside this thread. I'm not changing anyone's mind.

I am not sure if we should continue our discussion.

Maybe to clarify my point. If children are part of some kind of cult we all feel the need to help them. But if they are part of church (equally based upon nothing) we must have respect and let them be. That is not treating people equally.

Another example: a person whom believes that the NSA, CIA & FBI are constantly watching them ----> we give mental help. A person whom believes in a magic superior entity ----> leave them alone and respect them.

To me, preaching is all about winning souls and never about giving "hope". JoeP's intentions are probably pure, but in the greater scheme of things....it is not.

 

[astronomer]

go direct to the source, the heavens above,astronomy, the oldest religion,no need to be preached at by another sinner on earth,keep looking up !

 

[Mark Beehre]

Maybe to clarify my point. If children are part of some kind of cult we all feel the need to help them. But if they are part of church (equally based upon nothing) we must have respect and let them be. That is not treating people equally.

What is your definition of a cult?

 

[Joe P. Tamborra]

Rich, Jesus said in Luke 17 that before he returned conditions in the world would be like they were in the days of Noah, and the days of Lot. The bible speaks of the world being corrupt and filled with violence during the days of Noah in (Gen.6:11). Also in (Gen. 19) the bible shows us there was widespread sexual immorality during the time Lot lived. Jesus also spoke of escalated times of war, famine, earthquakes, pestilences, false religion, and wickedness getting worse and worse before His return in (Matt. 24). The bible also speaks of many people falling away from faith before He returns in (2Thel.2:3). The bible speaks of a time when people would not put up with reasonable biblical theology but would pay attention to man-made story's in (2Tim. 4:3). Also the bible speaks of scoffers mocking the promise of Jesus' return in (2Pet. 3:3). These prophetic words from the Holy bible are being fulfilled before our eyes, and any sane bible scholar would have to say Amen. This is clear evidence that the bible is divinely inspired by God, and not just another flawed writing of man. Please do not be quick to rebuttal these statements but please consider what I am telling you, these are some of the very scriptures that got be interested in reading the bible. This is a book that literally changed my direction in life.

 

[Mark Beehre]

On the internet we call this practice phishing.

According to the Internets: Phishing is the illegal attempt to acquire sensitive information such as usernames, passwords, and credit card details (and sometimes, indirectly, money), often for malicious reasons, by masquerading as a trustworthy entity in an electronic communication.

I like your wit , but phishing it's not the correct term to apply to what I said. Jesus never asked for personal information and he never tried to obtain anything illegally, he just asked people to listen and follow him. His definition of following was to do what he did, e.g. feed the poor, provide support to widows, show love towards others and share the good news of the gospel.

I can appreciate that you might see Jesus as masquerading as a type of trustworthy entity but that is only one part of the definition of phishing,

Because the people who do not believe do not care if they get criticized by christ. Again, if you do not believe the criticism is meaningless.The end results is: people who criticize christ will move on....and those that do not will keep on listening to his stories to the end of times...isn't that nice....?!

I think that Jesus saw that argument and debate with people from an opposing point of view was pointless. They wouldn't conform to his way of thinking and he certainly wasn't going to conform to theirs. Forcing conformity is a reason wars happen and in my opinion I don't believe he was interested in war. He simply said follow me or take your own path, the choice is yours. All the religious wars like the crusades for example were caused by men who thought themselves and there ways better than others. They looked down on non-believers and preached a conform or die type philosophy. I believe Jesus would have seen that as pride and the wrong representation of what his church stood for.

 

[astronomer]

the stargazers bible , yes , there is one, changed my life forever,look to the moon stars and planets and remember me,the astronomer from canada,life is good here !

 

[Mark Beehre]

You seem like a reasonable Christian Mark, that is at least willing and open to accept valid points from any side of an argument!
That is a good trait!

It's my hope Rich, that all Christians would be reasonable. My closest friends are Christian and they are all normal, levelheaded, reasonable people. Unfortunately you get well intentioned people in any church that apply a level of fundamentalism to there beliefs. I will always encourage a fellow believer to share the gospel and share there personal story about how God changed their life, in fact I love reading those stories! But, I don't like seeing Christians trying to ram there beliefs home by applying a believe or you go to hell approach. I think that is highly disrespectful and does more harm to the church than good. It certainly gives a reputation to believers that isn't accurate. I suppose it's like a suicide bombing occurring in Europe by Islamic fundamentalists and then an outpouring of hatred and aggression to Islamic followers in those areas. They didn't commit the terrorism, they just led there lives normally and keep there private lives private.

 

[astronomer]

hi mark,
actually joe tried that story on me last night on the chatbox,something about'' if you dont believe you go to hell'',like you said,it is disrespectful and harmful to the church,i take my belief under the night sky in my observatory that is how i choose to have my own private thoughts under the heavens,cheers !

 

[cullenbohannon]

http://www.worldhunger.org/articles/Learn/world hunger facts 2002.htm

In every part of the world it seems like people have more access to food, and undernourishment is declining. There doesn't seem to be an escalation in famine.

There is a huge ttp://www.joshuagoldstein.com/jgbio.htm.
"Joshua Goldstein argues that despite Iraq and Afghanistan, Congo and Sudan, the past 10 years have seen fewer war deaths than any decade in the past 100 years. And Harvard psychologist Steven Pinker goes even further. We may be living in the most peaceful period in the history of our species. "

http://www.npr.org/2011/12/07/143285836/war-and-violence-on-the-decline-in-modern-times
In case anyone cares who Goldstein is.
http://www.joshuagoldstein.com/jgbio.htm

As far as false religions, well there have always been many religions in the world.

The bible speaks of a time when people would not put up with reasonable biblical theology but would pay attention to man-made story's in

Right but i still have failed to see anything reasonable that would make any non believer believe.
And by man made story if you are referring to science , well thats not even close to an accurate assessment of what science is. Science is observing and recording the natural world in order to figure out why things are the way they are. Also theres this silly thing in science where you have to prove your claims, and your accountable to the laws of nature and other scientists who will go over you research and rip you apart if you are wrong.

 

[Sjoerd]

According to the Internets: Phishing is the illegal attempt to acquire sensitive information such as usernames, passwords, and credit card details (and sometimes, indirectly, money), often for malicious reasons, by masquerading as a trustworthy entity in an electronic communication.

I like your wit , but phishing it's not the correct term to apply to what I said. Jesus never asked for personal information and he never tried to obtain anything illegally, he just asked people to listen and follow him. His definition of following was to do what he did, e.g. feed the poor, provide support to widows, show love towards others and share the good news of the gospel.

I can appreciate that you might see Jesus as masquerading as a type of trustworthy entity but that is only one part of the definition of phishing,

I am overstating of course, but...in a way it is the same....tell a story and only engage those that respond positively. You are almost guaranteed to get a group of people that will do whatever you want. For both situations the final goal is a different, but the mechanism is the same. Story --> trust --> benefit.

I think that Jesus saw that argument and debate with people from an opposing point of view was pointless. They wouldn't conform to his way of thinking and he certainly wasn't going to conform to theirs. Forcing conformity is a reason wars happen and in my opinion I don't believe he was interested in war. He simply said follow me or take your own path, the choice is yours. All the religious wars like the crusades for example were caused by men who thought themselves and there ways better than others. They looked down on non-believers and preached a conform or die type philosophy. I believe Jesus would have seen that as pride and the wrong representation of what his church stood for.

Of course it it pointless from his point of view. If you have people constantly challenging the "beliefs"....He has allot to lose by engaging those people...better stay away.

 

[Sjoerd]

These prophetic words from the Holy bible are being fulfilled before our eyes, and any sane bible scholar would have to say Amen. This is clear evidence that the bible is divinely inspired by God, and not just another flawed writing of man. Please do not be quick to rebuttal these statements but please consider what I am telling you, these are some of the very scriptures that got be interested in reading the bible. This is a book that literally changed my direction in life.

We call this proof of: if you make very generic predictions...most of them are bound te be fulfilled sooner or later.

btw: there is less war in current days than ever before!

 

[Sjoerd]

View attachment 6481
Also theres this silly thing in science where you have to prove your claims, and your accountable to the laws of nature and other scientists who will go over you research and rip you apart if you are wrong.

And, everybody is free to replicate your experiment and prove or disprove your theory.

 

[Sjoerd]

These prophetic words from the Holy bible are being fulfilled before our eyes, and any sane bible scholar would have to say Amen. This is clear evidence that the bible is divinely inspired by God, and not just another flawed writing of man. Please do not be quick to rebuttal these statements but please consider what I am telling you, these are some of the very scriptures that got be interested in reading the bible. This is a book that literally changed my direction in life.

We call this proof of: if you make very generic predictions...most of them are bound te be fulfilled sooner or later.

btw: there is less war in current days than ever before!

The bible speaks of a time when people would not put up with reasonable biblical theology but would pay attention to man-made story's in (2Tim. 4:3).

Is this the paradox of the bible? I am truly afraid to read this to many time...I might end up in an infinite loop and blow up the universe.

 

[eldudebro]

Rich, Jesus said in Luke 17 that before he returned conditions in the world would be like they were in the days of Noah, and the days of Lot. The bible speaks of the world being corrupt and filled with violence during the days of Noah in (Gen.6:11). Also in (Gen. 19) the bible shows us there was widespread sexual immorality during the time Lot lived. Jesus also spoke of escalated times of war, famine, earthquakes, pestilences, false religion, and wickedness getting worse and worse before His return in (Matt. 24). The bible also speaks of many people falling away from faith before He returns in (2Thel.2:3). The bible speaks of a time when people would not put up with reasonable biblical theology but would pay attention to man-made story's in (2Tim. 4:3). Also the bible speaks of scoffers mocking the promise of Jesus' return in (2Pet. 3:3). These prophetic words from the Holy bible are being fulfilled before our eyes, and any sane bible scholar would have to say Amen. This is clear evidence that the bible is divinely inspired by God, and not just another flawed writing of man. Please do not be quick to rebuttal these statements but please consider what I am telling you, these are some of the very scriptures that got be interested in reading the bible. This is a book that literally changed my direction in life.

How is any of this proof of the bible being "divinely inspired by god" ?

Name one time in recorded human history where somewhere on the planet human beings were not doing horrific things to each other? Earthquakes and pestilences?? Last time i checked natural disasters and biological epidemics have been around a lot longer than we have.

 

[astronomer]

joe was on the chat box the other night and when he saw me come on he changed every sentence to god and jesus, but i am already blessed from the heavens above for i choose to be an astronomer !

 

[Joe P. Tamborra]

Astronomer, whats up with all the bashing??????? I don't get
it??? We hardly talk on the chat. Not sure where your coming
from with all the rhetoric. If you see me as preaching when I
am having a normal conversation, its probably true to some
degree, that is my divine calling in life to preach the word of God.
I've read the bible so much that the bible reads me, and I have
learned how to communicate by reading the word of God. As
far as looking to the stars for answers I do not agree, I look to the
Creator of the stars, just saying....

 

[Joe P. Tamborra]

Life would be so much easier for us all if we were the ones controlling on own personal destiny in this life; however we are not the ones in charge. We were created by a Master designer who has an individual plan for each one of our lives. This wonderful plan will not be fully carried out in most people's lives because the Creator gave us all a free will. And with this free will we all to some degree begin to make are own plans and to do our own will. God allows us to try and find our own way, until some of us figure out the reality that we are hopelessly lost aside from His intervention in our lives. In (Mark 6:45), Jesus constrained His disciples to get into the ship and to go to the other side. While the disciples endeavored to fulfill Jesus' command, Jesus went off to pray being left behind. About the fourth watch Jesus saw His disciples toiling in rowing because the wind was contrary to them. The bible says He would have passed them by as He came walking on the water, but they thought He was a spirit and were afraid. Because of that, He revealed himself to them and helped them. Jesus, being God in the flesh, sent His followers into a very hard situation, right into the middle of a storm. The bible says He constrained them to get into the ship. Another words He forced or compelled them to get into this situation. Jesus had control over the storm because He made it to cease, but He had no problem continuing to leave them in this unpleasant situation for several hours as He continued to pray. He also was going to allow them to stay even longer, because the scripture said, "He would have passed them by". In (Mark 6:52), the scripture reads, "they considered not the miracle of the loaves, because their heart was hardened. Jesus being the greatest teacher that ever was saw it was in the best interest of His followers to stay in this situation long enough to learn what He wanted them to learn. They needed, as we also need to realize that we are totally dependent upon the Creator. God often has to allow difficulties to arise in our lives to reinforce this valuable truth. Maybe tinnitus is just another way of getting our attention back towards our only source of help, which is God Himself. Some of us are hard learners and because of this we have faced several situations such as tinnitus.

 

[astronomer]

looking to the stars for answers, it works for me !

 

[eldudebro]

Life would be so much easier for us all if we were the ones controlling on own personal destiny in this life; however we are not the ones in charge.

Yes we are.

We were created by a Master designer who has an individual plan for each one of our lives.

Got any evidence for that? Something to corroborate your claims that doesn't come from a dubious source.

Maybe tinnitus is just another way of getting our attention back towards our only source of help, which is God Himself.

Tinnitus is a neurological condition, brought on by a dysfunction of the inner ear and the brain. Nothing more. It is not the action of a "creator" wagging his finger at one of his disobedient creations who have thrown their "plan" out the window.


Are schizophrenia, parkinsons or dementia also ways of getting a stray soul back on track to the pearly gates? What about the untold number of devout christians who no doubt suffers these conditions? Ah yeah.... God works in mysterious ways. Of course.

 

[Sjoerd]

Life would be so much easier for us all if we were the ones controlling on own personal destiny in this life; however we are not the ones in charge. We were created by a Master designer who has an individual plan for each one of our lives. This wonderful plan will not be fully carried out in most people's lives because the Creator gave us all a free will. And with this free will we all to some degree begin to make are own plans and to do our own will. God allows us to try and find our own way, until some of us figure out the reality that we are hopelessly lost aside from His intervention in our lives. In (Mark 6:45), Jesus constrained His disciples to get into the ship and to go to the other side. While the disciples endeavored to fulfill Jesus' command, Jesus went off to pray being left behind. About the fourth watch Jesus saw His disciples toiling in rowing because the wind was contrary to them. The bible says He would have passed them by as He came walking on the water, but they thought He was a spirit and were afraid. Because of that, He revealed himself to them and helped them. Jesus, being God in the flesh, sent His followers into a very hard situation, right into the middle of a storm. The bible says He constrained them to get into the ship. Another words He forced or compelled them to get into this situation. Jesus had control over the storm because He made it to cease, but He had no problem continuing to leave them in this unpleasant situation for several hours as He continued to pray. He also was going to allow them to stay even longer, because the scripture said, "He would have passed them by". In (Mark 6:52), the scripture reads, "they considered not the miracle of the loaves, because their heart was hardened. Jesus being the greatest teacher that ever was saw it was in the best interest of His followers to stay in this situation long enough to learn what He wanted them to learn. They needed, as we also need to realize that we are totally dependent upon the Creator. God often has to allow difficulties to arise in our lives to reinforce this valuable truth. Maybe tinnitus is just another way of getting our attention back towards our only source of help, which is God Himself. Some of us are hard learners and because of this we have faced several situations such as tinnitus.

I am not sure if I want to start laughing or crying.

If any of this is true....well were fucked...god must be a very sadistic bitch.

just one of many examples: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epidermolysis_bullosa

Some christians find my words offensive......you go talk to a kid like that (whom has Epidermolysis bullosa, or any other syndrome we know of) and tell them their an ignorant fuck because they do not understand the teachings of god.

I think I am going to start crying now.....

 

[Street Spirit]

Undecided, the bible says hell awaits those who refuse to repent.
And I have repented and believed to escape hell.

I wonder why a God who "knows everything" would create a person of whom he knows will never repent and therefore will suffer eternally at his own hand..in fire-forever and ever. .amen.

huh..are you a Calvinist? cause otherwise Christianity makes no sense whatsoever.

p.s I think your story lost me at.." when I was a boy and laying in bed, in the dark" (paraphrasing)

you were dreaming?

 

[eldudebro]

you were dreaming?

Or perhaps hallucinating.
The human brain is very susceptible to hallucination. I think every member on this board is testament to that with the noises we have in our heads....