Bent Cochlear Cilia

[JohnAdams]

There is a prevailing theory that the cilia in our hair cells get damaged, fall over, and maintain an open chemical pathway that makes them like a piano key that is always held down, and that tinnitus start there in the cochlea.

These images were presumably taken using a scanning electron microscope.

I, along with the very intelligent man @Contrast, believe that this is false and that tinnitus starts either in the brain or the dorsal cochlear nucleus. These regions looking, polling, for a signal where none exists.

My points:
1. Is the condition of the damaged cilia in the right image a result of the preparation of the sample to be used in the microscope?

2. If tinnitus sounds originate in the cochlea from "always on" hair cells, then why does mine wildly fluctuate, with my circadian rhythms, and also get influenced by what I am looking at.

3. Why would the cilia fall over like that, like gravity is pulling them down? Aren't they suspended in a fluid, in a spiral shape?

 

[annV]

I wish there was a way to have our hair cells inspected. I would like to know how many of mine are broken.

 

[Contrast]

This was debunked as a chronic cause of tinnitus by studies using high doses aspirin which are suppose to nullify the bent hair cells from communicating to the brain. Bent hair cells can induce perception of sound but it is not chronic, because there are more mechanisms to hearing then just bending the hair cell.

 

[Contrast]

Twitching bent hair cells are not the cause of chronic tinnitus. It's in the DCN, brain problem not ear problem.

 

[JohnAdams]

I wish there was a way to have our hair cells inspected. I would like to know how many of mine are broken.

I was thinking that earlier, but the cochlea is the hardest bony structure in our body and I'm pretty sure only electron microscopes can resolve structures that small in that level of detail.

 

[Contrast]

I was thinking that earlier, but the cochlea is the hardest bony structure in our body and I'm pretty sure only electron microscopes can resolve structures that small in that level of detail.

it's not possible to biopsy or take a picture of the cochlea, I have no idea maybe one day they will be able to ultrasound it, or geneticly raise rats that don't have a cochlea encased in bone. i'm just randomly guessing I don't know if it could ever happen. Hopefully it does and the inside of my cochlea would probably look like shit and it would justify a treatment.

 

[Contrast]

okay were freakin talking about microscopic structures inside a very tiny super fragile spiral shaped organ encased by one of the hardest bones in the body as well as another layer of the skull.

The cochlea is seems incredibly damn difficult to peep inside.

 

[Contrast]

I was thinking that earlier, but the cochlea is the hardest bony structure in our body and I'm pretty sure only electron microscopes can resolve structures that small in that level of detail.

I hear people say the temporal bone (bone encasing the cochlea and part of the skull), femur(thigh),olecranon(tip of elbow)
are all the hardest bones in the body.

 

[JohnAdams]

I hear people say the temporal bone (bone encasing the cochlea and part of the skull), femur(thigh),olecranon(tip of elbow)
are all the hardest bones in the body.

either way, it's hard. which even more so adds to my point about the process of getting those cell structures prepared to go under the microscope to begin with. what if those cells were damaged when they were cutting into the bone structure? they certainly did not get that image from a living organism, as in, those are images of a dead organ.

 

[Contrast]

Just posting again to say we know this hypothesis about bent hair cells is wrong and it's been known for probably over a decade or more, it's just that tinnitus research is so low priority and in every field nutjobs exist that bring up refuted arguments.

I read a paper from the freakin 1950's which stated tinnitus may be in the brain not the ear.

 

[Contrast]

either way, it's hard. which even more so adds to my point about the process of getting those cell structures prepared to go under the microscope to begin with. what if those cells were damaged when they were cutting into the bone structure? they certainly did not get that image from a living organism, as in, those are images of a dead organ.

I do not understand your question at all.

 

[JohnAdams]

I do not understand your question at all.

maybe the process of preparing the samples for these images is the cause of the state of those bent hair cells.

They would have to cut/saw into the cochlea, then coat the hair cells with some kind of metal, and then take the image.

https://www.leica-microsystems.com/...o-coating-technology-for-electron-microscopy/

also, the organ would invariably be dead at the beginning of this process, long before the image was procured. right? what if that explains the state of the cells in the right most image of "bent" hair cells?

 

[Contrast]

maybe the process of preparing the samples for these images is the cause of the state of those bent hair cells.

They would have to cut/saw into the cochlea, then coat the hair cells with some kind of metal, and then take the image.

https://www.leica-microsystems.com/...o-coating-technology-for-electron-microscopy/

also, the organ would invariably be dead at the beginning of this process, long before the image was procured. right?

the cochlea would be destroyed/damaged if penerated in anyway.

I believe the scientist kill the animals immediately after acoustic trauma/ototoxicity and disect their cochlea.

 

[Contrast]

#deadratscochlea

 

[Contrast]

this image of a healthy happy cochlea that we lust after, probably belongs to a dead rodent that was killed only for illustration purposes.

 

[Greg Sacramento]

https://trainingandrehabilitation.com/association-tinnitus-neck-tmj/

Notice the natural moving of cochlea in the two pictures ( a short ways down in article) when people are bending over or exercising. This is part of the theory why some develop somatic physical tinnitus after muscle spasms or head/neck/jaw injury.

 

[JohnAdams]

View attachment 21588
this image of a healthy happy cochlea that we lust after, probably belongs to a dead rodent that was killed only for illustration purposes.

also, if bent, damaged hair cells being all flopped over caused tinnitus, then wouldn't moving your head around and changing the inclination of it, change the sound of your tinnitus?

 

[Greg Sacramento]

also, if bent, damaged hair cells being all flopped over caused tinnitus, then wouldn't moving your head around and changing the inclination of it, change the sound of your tinnitus?

If it's somatic physical tinnitus - yes as in link above, Somatic physical tinnitus start with forceful or strained movement of head, neck and/or jaw. Small acoustic signals are generated.

The immune system can also be weak with infection which can react to many many parts of the ear causing acoustic trauma - TTTS, ASD and hyperacusis.

 

[GregCA]

2. If tinnitus sounds originate in the cochlea from "always on" hair cells, then why does mine wildly fluctuate, with my circadian rhythms, and also get influenced by what I am looking at.

Maybe because there is no single root cause for T.
For example, people with "traditional otosclerosis" (ie limited to the middle ear) have T due to an impedance mismatch between the middle ear and the inner ear. It is essentially generated at that interface, even though they have great cochlea hair cells and everything else downstream from it. If I recall correctly the study numbers, in 50% of the cases, surgery resolves T for them (in addition to restoring the lost hearing).
But for others, the sound deprivation (often due to damage to OHC) is what causes ill changes downstream from the hair cells, which are thought to be responsible for the genesis of the phantom sound.
Then there's T due to wax, or PT due to proximity with vessels, or other mechanical/somatic interference with nerves.
There's more than one way to lead to a perception of a phantom sound, so if something doesn't apply to you, it doesn't mean it has to be thrown out the window: you may not have T that originates in the cochlea, but perhaps someone else does.

 

[1000]

If it's somatic physical tinnitus - yes as in link above, Somatic physical tinnitus start with forceful or strained movement of head, neck and/or jaw. Small acoustic signals are generated.

The immune system can also be weak with infection which can react to many many parts of the ear causing acoustic trauma - TTTS, ASD and hyperacusis.

Maybe because there is no single root cause for T.
For example, people with "traditional otosclerosis" (ie limited to the middle ear) have T due to an impedance mismatch between the middle ear and the inner ear. It is essentially generated at that interface, even though they have great cochlea hair cells and everything else downstream from it. If I recall correctly the study numbers, in 50% of the cases, surgery resolves T for them (in addition to restoring the lost hearing).
But for others, the sound deprivation (often due to damage to OHC) is what causes ill changes downstream from the hair cells, which are thought to be responsible for the genesis of the phantom sound.
Then there's T due to wax, or PT due to proximity with vessels, or other mechanical/somatic interference with nerves.
There's more than one way to lead to a perception of a phantom sound, so if something doesn't apply to you, it doesn't mean it has to be thrown out the window: you may not have T that originates in the cochlea, but perhaps someone else does.

Sometimes you scared me. I wish there was a explanation, a way to diagnosed and a way to cure it. Not just t but h as well.

 

[1000]

If it's somatic physical tinnitus - yes as in link above, Somatic physical tinnitus start with forceful or strained movement of head, neck and/or jaw. Small acoustic signals are generated.

The immune system can also be weak with infection which can react to many many parts of the ear causing acoustic trauma - TTTS, ASD and hyperacusis.

The immune system can be related to an acoustic trauma? How?

 

[Greg Sacramento]

I don't want to scare you, but improper posture with forward head bending can cause back and neck muscle spasms. This is discussed in all the professional articles on physical tinnitus. When the neck is injured or under stress this can lead to jaw and TMJ/D problems. TMJ can also be caused from stress, clenching, having mouth open too long, twisting of mouth and so much more.

In many cases any of this can affect hearing even if it may be hidden hearing loss. All of this is discussed in detail in at least 20 links on somatic and physical tinnitus that I have posted. There's a thousand more articles on the internet about this.

 

[1000]

I don't want to scare you, but improper posture with forward head bending can cause back and neck muscle spasms. This is discussed in all the professional articles on physical tinnitus. When the neck is injured or under stress this can lead to jaw and TMJ/D problems. TMJ can also be caused from stress, clenching, having mouth open too long, twisting of mouth and so much more. In many cases it does affect hearing even if it may be hidden hearing loss. All of this is discussed in detail in at least 20 links on somatic and physical tinnitus that I have posted. There's a thousand more articles on the internet about this.

I had tmjd.... Years before the trauma...but I wasn't exposed at higher until it happened....now I feel more myofacial pain....

Forward head bending...That's me I'm always like that...

Mouth open too long.... I do that too...

Clenching...yes

Neck pain....yes before and after.

Oh man..... I"m garabage.... How can I fixed that? I wish I could fix the t...but t was after thd loud loud music exposure acoustic shock trauma.

 

[Greg Sacramento]

I understand. It can certainly be easier to receive hearing loss from a noise exposure if one has a neck or jaw problem. Sometimes afterwards, infection, joint or muscle trauma develops leading to facial problems. Facial has the most complicated systems in the body. According to many chiropractic articles including the 'Back in the Game" series state that 87% - 96% with a neck injury from trauma or whiplash will develop TMJ. The C1 and C2 area often associates as well to TMJ. Injured muscles in the neck can hold toxins that can also spread to facial.

As least 30% of all my postings discuss physical tinnitus and often I include links for treatments. It can be trial and error before some may find a correct treatment. Facial is difficult for treatments as facial nerves and mouth problems vary from person to person. It took me 18 months to understand neck and jaw tinnitus where I read thousands of professional studies and articles. I must have 500 links to physical tinnitus, but I still don't have a great understanding on facial and tinnitus connections. I don't think that any dentist or specialized doctor does.

Some of the different specific condition articles on facial/mouth have tons of terms. I know most of the nerves, but it's not enough to get a good hold on understanding facial. It's too bad that facial is so complicated because often it has an underlining connection to tinnitus. Infection can also be included with facial. There will never be one cure for tinnitus; besides the ears and brain - a physical condition often needs to be cured.

The bottom line is that a lot of physical tinnitus begins with bad posture, then muscles spasms from forward head bending or strain. From there a lot of stuff can happen. Often within the neck the occipital nerves, deep fiber nerves, facet joints are involved. The trapezius and SCM muscles plus other muscles, nerves and joints which I recently listed can also be involved.

 

[humptydumpty69]

@Contrast,

I know that this thread is old and dead, but I still thought that I might comment.
Personally, I have always assumed that my own disease is related to the stereocilia: When I get out of the shower, or after using an electric toothbrush, my high frequency acuity and tinnitus turn off; then after a couple of hours of noise avoidance, I experience some feedback tones, resumed ringing in the areas affected, and finally the recommenced function of my high frequency acuity. I have assumed that this phenomenon is related to the toppling of my weak stereocilia, and that they then reorient and erect themselves in attempts to again perceive sound. I do have H and extremely minimal T, but the fluctuation of acuity is something that I've rarely seen discussed.

I know that most on this forum would disregard his opinion, but Dr. Wilden is actually the only one who has addressed this issue for me, and he deemed it characterized as "Classical Inner Ear Exhaustion". Physicians have conjectured my causation attributed to life-long musicianship, mild ototoxicity, mild autoimmunity, and at the onset: moderate noise trauma. Would you happen to be able to shed any light on this subject for me?

Much obliged,

-Humpty

 

[Capstan]

My tinnitus spikes when I lay flat. I've seen others say the same. Couldn't that be the bent hair theory?

 

[Contrast]

It's already been heavily dismissed by scientist 10-20 years ago. It's just a popular idea in sub culture.

 

[humptydumpty69]

Well then if anyone would like to speculate as to what's going on with my hearing, I'm very curious to know some opinions.

Also I wonder if anyone else experiences fluctuations in acuity as I do?

 

[FGG]

Well then if anyone would like to speculate as to what's going on with my hearing, I'm very curious to know some opinions.

Also I wonder if anyone else experiences fluctuations in acuity as I do?

Off hand, it sounds like residual inhibition with maybe some somatic components.

 

[humptydumpty69]

@FGG,

My high frequencies are slowly healing, and as of today my tinnitus has developed into a triad of harmonies in one ear: They have the timbre of wispy singing wine glasses. It's quite relaxing; and for the time being I probably have the most ideal tinnitus on this forum. Have you ever heard of anyone having a bit of music in their tinnitus?