Concerts and Loud Shows with Earplugs — How Safe Are They with 32 dB NRR Custom Earplugs?

[Mister Muso]

Lastly - Bone conduction is GROSSLY OVERESTIMATED as a danger on this site. Sound is attenuated by 40-60 dB by your skull. And that's measured at gun volume. Remember, hearing is logarithmic - so attenuating at 150 dB and at 120 dB are NOT the same thing. Attenuation levels are much lower at higher SPL.

A concert is 100 dB average tops. Relax. Any spike is likely more to do with anxious tooth grinding and your jaw than bone conduction.

Source - https://www.audiologyonline.com/ask-the-experts/hearing-loss-through-bone-conduction-522

That article is about possible bone conduction from gunshots. I'm pretty sure most guns don't produce the same level of deep bass that is possible from a concert. Certainly not with the same repetitive insistency of a pounding bass beat. I've experienced pain from a concert even wearing double protection which forced me to leave the venue.

Bit of background - I've been to hundreds of concerts and played in hundreds more, including 10000 seater arenas. All that is gone for me now. I'm happy for you that you can keep on with your musical activities, but like you say, other people's mileage may vary and I just wanted to add a bit of balance to your post.

 

[Tom Cnyc]

https://www.theguardian.com/culture...ins-royal-opera-house-case-for-hearing-damage

Successful lawsuit for noise exposure at a concert...

In Britain a professional musician successfully sued the orchestra where he was playing after developing hyperacusis:

https://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-43571144

Yeah, not really the same thing. This guy was injured on the job, and job safety precedents exist. OSHA regulates sound at concerts at legal concert halls - but it's for the workers, not the punters.

 

[Tom Cnyc]

That article is about possible bone conduction from gunshots. I'm pretty sure most guns don't produce the same level of deep bass that is possible from a concert. Certainly not with the same repetitive insistency of a pounding bass beat. I've experienced pain from a concert even wearing double protection which forced me to leave the venue.

Bit of background - I've been to hundreds of concerts and played in hundreds more, including 10000 seater arenas. All that is gone for me now. I'm happy for you that you can keep on with your musical activities, but like you say, other people's mileage may vary and I just wanted to add a bit of balance to your post.

I appreciate balance. It's actually my goal. Everyone here only presents one side but there are tons and tons and tons of musicians that continue on. I'm pretty cautious, I just don't believe in becoming a hermit. And yes, I'd leave a show if I became uncomfortable - even if I had plugs in.

 

[Tom Cnyc]

I think this is relevant to this discussion. Check out the last two profile posts on
https://www.tinnitustalk.com/members/mre.38375/

followed by (5 days later)

Enough said.

This is evidence of literally nothing at all.

 

[Bill Bauer]

This is evidence of literally nothing at all.

Ultimately the sufferer is the one who is best equipped to judge whether the two are related. And many of the people who posted here Had concluded that two events similar to those in the quote had been related (with the sound exposure causing a spike) in their case.

 

[Tom Cnyc]

Ultimately the sufferer is the one who is best equipped to judge whether the two are related. And many of the people who posted here Had concluded that two events similar to those in the quote had been related (with the sound exposure causing a spike) in their case.

There isn't even an indication of a spike in those posts, man.

I'm not saying there wasn't a spike. Just saying that isn't conclusive evidence of one.

 

[Juan]

Yeah, not really the same thing. This guy was injured on the job, and job safety precedents exist. OSHA regulates sound at concerts at legal concert halls - but it's for the workers, not the punters.

Judge Awards U2 Fan $34,000 Over Hearing Loss
French concert promoter must pay man who claims he's legally deaf from 1993 show.

https://www.atu2.com/news/judge-awards-u2-fan-34000-over-hearing-loss.html

 

[Bill Bauer]

There isn't even an indication of a spike in those posts, man.

I'm not saying there wasn't a spike. Just saying that isn't conclusive evidence of one.

I am talking about the posts where the sufferers spell it out that they got a spike after foolishly exposing themselves to loud noises.

 

[Ed209]

I am talking about the posts where the sufferers spell it out that they got a spike after foolishly exposing themselves to loud noises.

Life is full of loud noise, though, and we can't expect to escape it all. We can only be prepared.

It's not foolish if it's a person's passion to play live, for example. There are other factors to consider that are never considered here. There are pro musicians all around the world with varying degrees of tinnitus, hyperacusis, and hearing loss in every genre who continue to play regularly because it's their life and soul. They are not represented here.

We only get to hear from approximately 0.003% of the tinnitus population on TT and it is inherently biased. Just like it would be biased if one only read information from musicians' forums (which are full of people talking about tinnitus who still perform, so it would be spun in a more positive light).

It's ultimately up to the individual to come to their own conclusions about what they should and shouldn't do based on all the available evidence that's out there. The fear-mongering regarding the safety of earplugs is off the scale on here, in my opinion. I agree it's not wise to go somewhere that's insanely loud (and for me personally, I wouldn't) but most gigs nowadays are circa 100 - 105 dBA and that's near the speakers.

 

[Bill Bauer]

It's not foolish if it's a persons passion to play live, for example.

What if his passion is to drink and drive (and other reckless things that have the potential to hurt himself and others [his loved ones, in this case])?

It's ultimately up to the individual to come to their own conclusions about what they should and shouldn't do

Makes sense!

as the fear mongering on here regarding the safety of earplugs is off the scale

This part doesn't follow. The individuals should learn about the risks and then make their decision. What you call fear mongering is the information that those people need in order to make their decision.

Life is full of loud noise, though, and we can't expect to escape it all.

Just because life is full of risk, doesn't mean we shouldn't do what we can to Lower the risk. For example, just because the risk of cancer can't be eliminated, doesn't mean that it isn't a good idea to eat healthy food and to avoid the food that has the potential to cause cancer (e.g., burned stake).

 

[Ed209]

What if his passion is to drink and drive (and other reckless things that have the potential to hurt himself and others [his loved ones, in this case])?

If one's passion is to drink and drive then they're an idiot! How did you get to that from people having a passion for playing music? As an argument, it makes no sense at all.

This part doesn't follow. The individuals should learn about the risks and then make their decision. What you call fear mongering is the information that those people need in order to make their decision.

I have no problem with anecdotal stories. We all give an account of our experiences in life, but anecdotes are not based upon any definable truth. If you look at the way information regarding earplugs is disseminated on this site, it is very heavily biased towards them not being effective, and this is simply not true and misrepresents what they can offer. It is true that protection will begin to fail at a given decibel level (which is common sense) but the level at which this occurs is more of an anomaly than the norm as it has to be stupidly LOUD. Of course, we also have to factor misuse into the equation as well. There is a huge number of performing musicians (and gig-goers) who use either custom earplugs, foam plugs, and/or earmuffs in some cases (think Paul Gilbert) and they are thriving. If a new member - who was new to tinnitus - went only by what was written here, they would see a very skewed view of the reality of the situation. The same could be argued the other way, in that one could read equally biased advice from some other extreme source, but I'm not entirely sure where that would be?

The doom effect is unjustly magnified, in my opinion, and doesn't represent the broader view. Remember that we only see and hear from a teeny tiny percentage of the tinnitus population on this site, and by the nature of it being a support forum, many also have comorbidities such as anxiety and depression which further muddies the water.

Just because life is full of risk, doesn't mean we shouldn't do what we can to lower the risk. For example, just because the risk of cancer can't be eliminated, doesn't mean that it isn't a good idea to eat healthy food and to avoid the food that has the potential to cause cancer (e.g., burned stake).

This entirely depends on the individual and their personality. I have friends who eat saturated fats, and bacon that's full of nitrates, frequently, and they say if I have a heart attack so be it. That's just their lifestyle and their choice and there are many out there who are the same. Cigarette smokers know they can get any number of diseases but many carry on regardless. Again, it's their choice.

I've said this many times before: life is a risk. Getting out of bed is a risk. Going down the stairs in the morning is a risk. Driving to work is a risk. Eating a sandwich is a risk. Walking along a sidewalk is a risk. If we were to constantly assess these risks, we'd be setting ourselves up for an anxiety disorder. It's not a healthy way to go about life.

 

[Don Tinny]

Just don´t go to concerts. It is something too risky, even with earplugs the risk is high (I know from personal experience). Bassy sounds can reach your ears via bone conduction.

 

[david c]

Taking very sensible precautions with regard to sound is one of the very best things any new tinnitus sufferer can do and I know was the number one way I was able to habituate to my own tinnitus. That means carrying and using earplugs in potentially noisy situations and avoiding situations which are likely to be extremely noisy such as rock concerts etc.

 

[Ed209]

Just don´t go to concerts. It is something too risky, even with earplugs the risk is high (I know from personal experience). Bassy sounds can reach your ears via bone conduction.

This is sound advice and very easy to apply if one has no interest in music and I'd recommend people follow it. However, for others, music can be their livelihood and such an integral part of their life that it's not as easy as saying "just don't go to concerts."I've also seen people on here say that earplugs are not effective at levels that are much lower than a typical concert, so there's that as well. I think it just plays on people's fears a little too much when it's taken that far.

As was said above, bone conduction at circa 100 dBA is not too much of a concern considering the skull offers around 40 to 60 dB of protection. The weak point will always be the earplug itself at concert levels. If one does want to attend a concert, for whatever reason than it's advisable to stand away from the speakers where decibel levels can be a lot lower. One should also think about taking breaks. If the decibel levels are way above average I would simply leave. It's not worth the risk at stupidly noisy levels, but thankfully, this very rarely happens nowadays.

I think it's only fair that people look at this issue as objectively as possible and do what's best for them as an individual.

As a side note, this is what HSE has to say in the UK:

All loud leisure noise is dangerous noise?

No. There is a tendency when talking about the risk, for the less well informed, to consider only the level of noise exposure and not the duration of exposure. There is also a tendency to sensationalise the risks of non-occupational exposure. For example, a story may warn that rock concerts are typical '130dB SPL' (sound pressure level). This is one of the highest levels reported for rock concert noise. The mean of published sound levels from rock concerts is closer to 100 dB.

https://www.hse.gov.uk/noise/mythaug07.pdf

 

[JohnAdams]

This is sound advice and very easy to apply if one has no interest in music and I'd recommend people follow it. However, for others, music can be their livelihood and such an integral part of their life that it's not as easy as saying "just don't go to concerts."I've also seen people on here say that ear plugs are not effective at levels that are much lower than concerts, so there's that as well. I think it just plays on people's fears a little too much when it's taken that far.

As was said above, bone conduction at circa 100 dBA is not too much of a concern considering the skull offers around 40 to 60 dB of protection. The weak point will always be the earplug itself at concert levels. If one does want to attend a concert, for whatever reason, than it's advisable to stand away from the speakers where decibel levels can be a lot lower. One should also think about taking breaks.

I think it's only fair that people look at this issue as objectively as possible and do what's best for them as an individual.

As a side note, this is what HSE has to say in the UK:

All loud leisure noise is dangerous noise?

No. There is a tendency when talking about the risk, for the less well informed, to consider only the level of noise exposure and not the duration of exposure. There is also a tendency to sensationalise the risks of non-occupational exposure. For example, a story may warn that rock concerts are typically '130dB SPL' (sound pressure level). This is one of the highest levels reported for rock concert noise. The mean of published sound levels from rock concerts is closer to 100 dB.

https://www.hse.gov.uk/noise/mythaug07.pdf

^^^^^^^shit advice

Don't go to concerts. You'll be taking a huge risk that isn't worth the potential outcomes. If concerts are so important to you that it's "your life" regardless of the fact that you have damaged ears then you're an idiot.

What if the singer gets too close to the PA with their mic and causes a huge burst of feedback?

Just don't even get around PA's when they are turned on.

 

[fishbone]

@Bill Bauer go become a lawyer, you have a rebuttal for everything

 

[fishbone]

Going to concerts could be a risk, I'd avoid it.

 

[Ed209]

^^^^^^^shit advice

Don't go to concerts. You'll be taking a huge risk that isn't worth the potential outcomes. If concerts are so important to you that it's "your life" regardless of the fact that you have damaged ears then you're an idiot.

I know many high-profile professionals who would disagree with you given what music has given them. At the end of the day, everyone is unique and needs to make their own assessments without only looking at the extremes. Any time we get into a car there's probably just as much risk of us severely injuring ourselves as there is someone's tinnitus getting worse if they are wearing correctly-fitted earplugs in a moderately loud environment (whilst taking necessary precautions).

It very much depends upon one's life experiences as to how risk is assessed in any given situation.

If people reading this thread are far removed from the professional music scene and take no interest in music anyway, then it's best to just stay away. But then people who have no interest in music probably don't have any reason to go to a concert anyway.

The thinking on here can be a bit too binary at times, and the nuances of a situation can often be overlooked, in my opinion.

 

[Ed209]

@Bill Bauer go become a lawyer, you have a rebuttal for everything

Some of them make no sense though, in my opinion. What was that drunk driver analogy all about?

 

[fishbone]

Some of them make no sense though, in my opinion. What was that drunk driver analogy all about?

There is no logic connected with such a comparison. If people have a passion for D n Driving, they won't have a license

 

[Ed209]

Going to concerts could be a risk, I'd avoid it.

I respect that, Fishbone. We're all just throwing our 2 cents in here. It's ultimately up to whoever is attending the concert who needs to decide what is right for them and it depends upon their reasons. I'm just trying to bring some balance here as I've spent more than half my adult life around live performance and sound engineering. BTW, @JohnAdams has some experience here so his opinion is just as valid as anybody else's.

I don't think some here have ever been to a concert and I think it's quite sad that many might miss out on an orchestral experience, in a symphony hall, for example. It can really make the hairs on the back of your neck stand up.

If this is of absolutely no interest anyway, then yea, I agree, just don't go.

 

[Don Tinny]

This is sound advice and very easy to apply if one has no interest in music and I'd recommend people follow it. However, for others, music can be their livelihood and such an integral part of their life that it's not as easy as saying "just don't go to concerts."I've also seen people on here say that earplugs are not effective at levels that are much lower than a typical concert, so there's that as well. I think it just plays on people's fears a little too much when it's taken that far.

As was said above, bone conduction at circa 100 dBA is not too much of a concern considering the skull offers around 40 to 60 dB of protection. The weak point will always be the earplug itself at concert levels. If one does want to attend a concert, for whatever reason than it's advisable to stand away from the speakers where decibel levels can be a lot lower. One should also think about taking breaks. If the decibel levels are way above average I would simply leave. It's not worth the risk at stupidly noisy levels, but thankfully, this very rarely happens nowadays.

I think it's only fair that people look at this issue as objectively as possible and do what's best for them as an individual.

As a side note, this is what HSE has to say in the UK:

All loud leisure noise is dangerous noise?

No. There is a tendency when talking about the risk, for the less well informed, to consider only the level of noise exposure and not the duration of exposure. There is also a tendency to sensationalise the risks of non-occupational exposure. For example, a story may warn that rock concerts are typical '130dB SPL' (sound pressure level). This is one of the highest levels reported for rock concert noise. The mean of published sound levels from rock concerts is closer to 100 dB.

https://www.hse.gov.uk/noise/mythaug07.pdf

I really love music. But my moderate tinnitus faded to a mild level after 2 years and I ruined it going to a rock concert with some plugs. Now more than two years with severe ringing. No signs of significant recovery on the horizon. That simple Hard Rock show changed my life and my mind in many ways.

 

[Bill Bauer]

If one's passion is to drink and drive then they're an idiot! How did you get to that from people having a passion for playing music?

A person who plays music after getting tinnitus is ... a reckless risk-taker, just like that lover of drinking-and-driving.

As an argument, it makes no sense at all.

Are you sure?

Remember that we only see and hear from a teeny tiny percentage of the tinnitus population on this site, and by the nature of it being a support forum, many also have comorbidities such as anxiety and depression which further muddies the water.

This establishes that the risk is real. Given what's at stake, that's enough for many of us (who have had enough of tinnitus, and don't want to deal with louder tinnitus or with new tones).

 

[Ed209]

I really love music. But my moderate tinnitus faded to a mild level after 2 years and I ruined it going to a rock concert with some plugs. Now more than two years with severe ringing. No signs of significant recovery on the horizon. That simple Hard Rock show changed my life and my mind in many ways.

How loud was the gig though? I've heard there are some horrendously loud shows in South America. I personally would never go to a loud gig ever again and if I happened to find myself at one I'd leave immediately.

A person who plays music after getting tinnitus is ... a reckless risk-taker, just like that lover of drinking-and-driving.

Are you sure?

This establishes that the risk is real. Given what's at stake, that's enough for many of us (who have had enough of tinnitus, and don't want to deal with louder tinnitus or with new tones).

Of course, there's a risk, there has to be. I'm just saying it's nowhere near as extreme as this site makes it out to be at regular (not insanely loud) shows. That's all. As I said earlier, every activity we undertake has a risk involved, but for me personally, there's no way I can shield myself away from life. I'm not saying that others must do the same. People here can do as they wish, this is just my perspective on things.

I simply don't have the personality to live like a hermit, and forcing myself to do so would give me depression and anxiety issues which in itself could make my tinnitus worse.

I don't take big risks, though. Everything I do is calculated which is why I no longer play live. You take risks as well, Bill, by going to work. Surely it's much safer that you stay at home all day? Why risk it just for the sake of money when there's every chance you could die or worsen your hearing? It's a very real risk just like I said in my opening sentence, but I assume you have a job?

Sound exposure levels are going to go above 80 dBA in everyday situations. That's just a fact of life and we need to deal with it, concerts or no concerts.

You can disagree with everything I've just said and that's your right to do so.

Peace out, Bill.

 

[Don Tinny]

How loud was the gig though? I've heard there are some horrendously loud shows in South America. I personally would never go to a loud gig ever again and if I happened to find myself at one I'd leave immediately.

I was wearing earplugs but it was just a regular hard rock concert. Enough for my weak ears.

 

[Ed209]

I was wearing earplugs but it was just a regular hard rock concert. Enough for my weak ears.

I'm not trying to be difficult here, I promise, but there are so many variables at play in what you're saying. Not all concerts are the same (including rock ones). Some are well controlled in terms of volume (especially some European Arena type shows) but others can be so loud and out of control that they would be dangerous under any circumstances. No disrespect intended here, but South America has a reputation for excessively loud rock shows.

We also have no idea if your earplugs were correctly inserted or not, or whether they fit your ear canal properly. I'm not discounting your experience at all, as my own tinnitus became severe in 2015 after repeated exposures to loud gigs (with no ear protection). To better understand the dynamics of your situation, though, all the facts would need to be known in order to make any kind of objective assessment.

There is a significant difference between attending a show that's 125 dBA - with incorrectly inserted or improper fitting earplugs - and a show that's 100 dBA with deeply fitted and well-sealed earplugs, for example. I'm not trying to say that you didn't use your earplugs properly or that the concert you attended was at a very dangerous threshold; I'm just highlighting the spectrum of potential variables that are at play.

The difference between 95 dB and 125 dB at a rock concert is huge. In fact, it's 1000 times more powerful.

 

[Tom Cnyc]

I'm not trying to be difficult here, I promise, but there are so many variables at play in what you're saying. Not all concerts are the same (including rock ones). Some are well controlled in terms of volume (especially some European Arena type shows) but others can be so loud and out of control that they would be dangerous under any circumstances. No disrespect intended here, but South America has a reputation for excessively loud rock shows.

We also have no idea if your earplugs were correctly inserted or not, or whether they fit your ear canal properly. I'm not discounting your experience at all, as my own tinnitus became severe in 2015 after repeated exposures to loud gigs (with no ear protection). To better understand the dynamics of your situation, though, all the facts would need to be known in order to make any kind of objective assessment.

There is a significant difference between attending a show that's 125 dBA - with incorrectly inserted or improper fitting earplugs - and a show that's 100 dBA with deeply fitted and well-sealed earplugs, for example. I'm not trying to say that you didn't use your earplugs properly or that the concert you attended was at a very dangerous threshold; I'm just highlighting the spectrum of potential variables that are at play.

The difference between 95 dB and 125 dB at a rock concert is huge. In fact, it's 1000 times more powerful.

THIS!

Nobody is advocating to stay in dangerous places. I would absolutely walk out of a show that was too loud. In the past two years I've only been to ONE concert that I legitimately thought was too loud - P Funk at Sony Hall. And I took refuge by the bar under the mezzanine which cut the volume liekly by 10 dB. I'd also never "ride the rails" and stand up front ever again. The sound is best by in the back/middle - where the FOH mixing board is. It's literally balanced to that spot.

@Don Tinny - which band were you seeing? and what was the venue?

 

[Tom Cnyc]

Judge Awards U2 Fan $34,000 Over Hearing Loss
French concert promoter must pay man who claims he's legally deaf from 1993 show.

https://www.atu2.com/news/judge-awards-u2-fan-34000-over-hearing-loss.html

The man sneaked around a barrier in order to get closer to the speakers, according to the Associated Press. Court appointed doctors testified that the man, lacking the ear plugs that allow security and technicians to work so close to the massive speakers which U2 uses for the mega stadium shows, lost 75 percent of his hearing in his left ear and 49 percent in his right ear, thus making him legally deaf.

Wow.

My point stands though. For all the people that have had this happen only ONE was able to win the case. And I'm willing to bet its because they didn't do their due diligence keeping him away from an area generally recognized as unsafe - not because it happened while he was in a space designated for audience.

 

[Juan]

The man sneaked around a barrier in order to get closer to the speakers, according to the Associated Press. Court appointed doctors testified that the man, lacking the ear plugs that allow security and technicians to work so close to the massive speakers which U2 uses for the mega stadium shows, lost 75 percent of his hearing in his left ear and 49 percent in his right ear, thus making him legally deaf.

Wow.

My point stands though. For all the people that have had this happen only ONE was able to win the case. And I'm willing to bet its because they didn't do their due diligence keeping him away from an area generally recognized as unsafe - not because it happened while he was in a space designated for audience.

This is just one court ruling awarding damages for hearing loss at a concert that I found searching Google like 1 minute. If I searched legal databases like the ones big law firms use I am sure it would be easy to find many more cases awarding damages and compensation for hearing loss at concerts and music venues.

 

[Don Tinny]

@Don Tinny - which band were you seeing? and what was the venue?

It was a Gene Simmons concert in a small enclosed nightclub. I don´t leave the place beacuase the earplugs "killed" the higher frequencies and everything sounded bassy. I thought "Only HF sounds are dangerous". But the bass vibrations ruined me anyway.