Concerts and Loud Shows with Earplugs — How Safe Are They with 32 dB NRR Custom Earplugs?

[Brooklyn NY]

Hi, I would like some opinions regarding how effective custom ear plugs would be if I decided to attend loud public events. The ear plugs are 32 dB. Thank you.

 

[Bill Bauer]

opinions regarding how effective custom ear plugs would be

The quotes below are not opinions, they are experiences

With regards to noise exposure that isn't dangerous to most people, I developed a new tone in my right ear after a noise exposure at work back in October. I spent about half an hour in an area that I would estimate was at most 90db, but it was probably less than that. I had deeply inserted large foam earplugs at the time, but apparently that was not enough protection. That tone has not gone away, and it's not some psychosomatic spike. Spikes in volume are somewhat relative in my opinion, they can be attributed to stress, lack of sleep, noise exposure, diet, etc., but completely new tones that do not go away are something different.

In response to "What caused an aggravation?"
More loud music, despite earplugs. (I.e. way too loud and maybe too long exposure). That was 23 days ago.

In response to "What caused an aggravation?"
Prolonged loud noise exposure like clubs and parties, had some friends with chronic tinnitus that told me I'd be fine with ear plugs, well, I wasn't. They were, however.

All the health care professionals I spoke to, told me to throw away my hearing protection and live my life as I did before. But around 2 months ago, doing that, I started awaking during the night with chiming ears and experiencing new tones every now and then. This was just from going to class everyday, driving around my city without hearing protection (all sounds below 80db). Since then, I've been avoiding placing myself in these situations as much as I can (as to prevent having to wear hearing protection too much), and lo and behold, I don't get those night spikes anymore and the new tones that sometimes set in, subside when I give my ears rest in this way. This is therefore the policy that I prefer.

To all members in this forum advising against so called "overprotection". I never exposed myself to sounds even remotely considered as being potentially harmful to healthy people but because of your advice I was exposed to sounds uncomfortable for me which eventually proved to be damaging.

At initial stages i was very weary about sound levels around me and used protection everytime I felt uncomfortable.

Only by reading TRT literature or some posts here I started to expose my self to sounds loud but never louder than 75-80 dB.

Whenever I was feeling like something is not right I was stupid enough to believe you these changes were part of "the natural process of healing".

Is this your healing? Every time you feel like giving this sort of advice have my case in mind.

I tried the 'laissez faire' approach for that first period, where I didn't let myself be bothered by most sounds, except for 80db+ (when I started plugging the ears) and still went out and did all my old activities, but that ended up costing me dearly. I had a 'spike' (if it can still be called that) that hasn't gone away.

 

[Tamara]

The dB that say they protect in theory is not the same in practice, you have to apply a formula.

 

[Tamara]

There are two formulas to calculate the effectiveness of the protector.

 

[Brooklyn NY]

Thank you very much for all your replies. This is certainly a grim situation indeed. I used to love going to sporting events and the occasional show, but that is all down the drain unfortunately. I suspected as much, but considering any odd stray sound affects my ears, I'm not surprised. I have been avoiding these for the past year, and will continue to...

 

[Digital Doc]

Thank you very much for all your replies. This is certainly a grim situation indeed. I used to love going to sporting events and the occasional show, but that is all down the drain unfortunately. I suspected as much, but considering any odd stray sound affects my ears, I'm not surprised. I have been avoiding these for the past year, and will continue to...

Unfortunately, no hearing protection is fully effective. Basically, if you play with fire, sooner or later you will get burnt. Would you want to stand behind bulletproof glass while being shot at?

Best to avoid these situations that are so ridiculously loud. Thankfully most of it is on TV and have some control over the volume.

 

[Sven]

Hi, I would like some opinions regarding how effective custom ear plugs would be if I decided to attend loud public events. The ear plugs are 32 dB. Thank you.

Since @Bill Bauer quoted me, I might as well reply myself. I'd say that it depends on what kind of "loud public event" you're talking about.

Ear plugs can give you a false sense of security.

 

[Tamara]

https://www.osha.gov
Methods for estimating the adequacy of hearing protector attenuation

 

[Michael Leigh]

Hi, I would like some opinions regarding how effective custom ear plugs would be if I decided to attend loud public events. The ear plugs are 32 dB. Thank you.

While earplugs will offer some protection at concerts and clubs. Please be aware they are not 100% safe. If external sound is loud enough it will pass through your head/skull and be transferred to your inner ear by "bone conduction" this can irritate the cochlea and cause a tinnitus spike, that can result in increasing your tinnitus permanently to a new level. Please read the post below written by a member who is an Audio engineer.


Hi!
I'm an audio engineer and now have T. I hate to have to tell you this but there are no earplugs that can protect you in the typical nightclub environment. The best protection will only lower the Sound Pressure Level (SPL) by about 30 db. Assuming the sound is typical, it's going to hover around 105 db A when measured using long term averaging, slow response on a meter. This means there will be peaks well in excess of 120 db"A" weighted. Weighting the scales of measurement on the sound meter gives more accurate readings. "A" weighting approximates what your eardrum is sensitive to... meaning sound with the deep bass filtered out. "C" weighting includes the bass and is generally 15-30 db higher than an "A" reading.

So, 105 db A (typical nightclub or major concert translates into 130 db "C" or more including the bass. How long do people generally stay in the average nightclub? Too long! 4 hour stay is average. A concert is generally 2.5 hours. Many people will stay in the club all night until they are "OK" to drive and be back in public LMAO. The drugs people do screws up their judgement and desensitizes them to physical sensation and people damage themselves without realizing it.

Sound levels pretty much everywhere are TOO loud IMO. Instead of the industry standard 105 db A (Live Nation SPL cap) I like to keep it at 96-98 for people. Why so loud? Above 96 db the fight or flight response begins to kick in and you get that rush of excitement you get at a concert. It's a lot of what people pay for. Deep bass goes in through bone transconductance. You don't "hear" it with your eardrum you feel it This is how it is possible to have bass with headphones. If this transconductance did not occur, the long wavelengths that make bass would not have enough distance to unfold when using headphones. So, earplugs DO NOT protect you from low frequency damage. Not even a little bit.

So, on the one hand, you're going to have 100db + peaks getting through your earplugs in the range above 100 Hz (low note on a 4 string bass guitar is 41.7 Hz) and the bass below will pressurize your cochlea like nothing is even there, straight through the bone. Some of the subwoofer arrays I have installed in places must have security grating around them to keep people from getting within ten feet of the subwoofer array because the array produces well over 150 db down at 35Hz at 1 meter distance and would make them nauseous or in some extreme cases even worse than that.

I can say this definitively from direct personal and professional experience. If you value your hearing and do not want your tinnitus to increase, avoid these places or if you must go limit your exposure considerably.

 

[Bill Bauer]

@Sven how are you feeling, these days? Has that spike ever settled?

 

[Sven]

@Sven how are you feeling, these days? Has that spike ever settled?

Hi. Thanks for asking. I can't say it did, but I guess I re-habituated (again) and it no longer causes anxiety, even though I do think about the noise (beep) quite often.

 

[vttbx]

I wore double protection for my last loud concert in 2009. I first put in my foam (pink) plugs for 33 dB of protection. Then over the foam, I put in Mack's silicone putty plugs for another 22 dB. Total 55 dB of protection and no spike in my T afterward. Was it enjoyable? Only for the visual.

 

[Bill Bauer]

I first put in my foam (pink) plugs for 33 dB of protection. Then over the foam, I put in Mack's silicone putty plugs for another 22 dB. Total 55 dB of protection

When you use double protection, the total noise reduction is the maximum noise reduction of the two plus 5. So it was at most 38 dB of protection.

 

[linearb]

I've gone to a number of concerts in the decade since my tinnitus got worse, and will probably go to one next month -- no problems for me, though, there are certainly shows that I tolerated in my youth that I would just walk out of now, earplugs or not.

It really depends on the show. Is it a laid back rock band in a venue with a double high ceiling and a reasonable audio engineer, keeping average volumes in the 85-90db range with occasional spikes to 95? You're almost certainly fine with earplugs. Is it an insane EDM bass show in a basement club with average volumes in the 110-120 range with spikes to 130? That's probably not safe for anyone.

The audio estimates in the engineer's story from @Michael Leigh 's post above are much higher than what I've clocked at actual shows with a dB meter over the last few years, but that just speaks to the variation in venues and kinds of events. Your average indie rock show in a midsize venue (or even better, outdoors) is not going to have sustained 100db volumes unless you're standing right next to a speaker. But, a Skrillex show in a concrete basement? It might!

The last show I went to (The Mountain Goats, yay for goats) was basically the same volume as when we saw one of the recent Star Wars movies in a normal theater. The next show I'm likely to go to is Kurt Vile, who himself has tinnitus badly enough to have written music about it, so you'd assume he hires reasonable audio techs, but time will tell...

I don't know much about sporting events but I have read some things which lead me to believe that large, fully packed football stadiums may be as loud or louder than the typical concert. In practice I've only gone to basketball, hockey and baseball games, all of which have been fine with earplugs.

tl;dr the safest thing to do is to just not go to concerts, but also the safest thing to do is basically never leave your house or ride in cars or drive motorcycles, so you have to figure out which of these things are worth rolling the dice and which are not.

 

[Ed209]

I've gone to a number of concerts in the decade since my tinnitus got worse, and will probably go to one next month -- no problems for me, though, there are certainly shows that I tolerated in my youth that I would just walk out of now, earplugs or not.

It really depends on the show. Is it a laid back rock band in a venue with a double high ceiling and a reasonable audio engineer, keeping average volumes in the 85-90db range with occasional spikes to 95? You're almost certainly fine with earplugs. Is it an insane EDM bass show in a basement club with average volumes in the 110-120 range with spikes to 130? That's probably not safe for anyone.

The audio estimates in the engineer's story from @Michael Leigh 's post above are much higher than what I've clocked at actual shows with a dB meter over the last few years, but that just speaks to the variation in venues and kinds of events. Your average indie rock show in a midsize venue (or even better, outdoors) is not going to have sustained 100db volumes unless you're standing right next to a speaker. But, a Skrillex show in a concrete basement? It might!

The last show I went to (The Mountain Goats, yay for goats) was basically the same volume as when we saw one of the recent Star Wars movies in a normal theater. The next show I'm likely to go to is Kurt Vile, who himself has tinnitus badly enough to have written music about it, so you'd assume he hires reasonable audio techs, but time will tell...

I don't know much about sporting events but I have read some things which lead me to believe that large, fully packed football stadiums may be as loud or louder than the typical concert. In practice I've only gone to basketball, hockey and baseball games, all of which have been fine with earplugs.

tl;dr the safest thing to do is to just not go to concerts, but also the safest thing to do is basically never leave your house or ride in cars or drive motorcycles, so you have to figure out which of these things are worth rolling the dice and which are not.

Same here and I actually trained in sound engineering as well. There are a lot of assumptions and generalisations in that post that do not apply to all situations, and as you correctly pointed out, he is on the upper end of the spectrum.

Talking of sport, the loudest premier league game (in the UK) at the point of this being published was 85dB.

https://www.expressandstar.com/spor...wolves-fans-loudest-in-premier-league-so-far/

For bone conduction to be an issue, one would have to be in an extremely loud and damaging environment. From my experience, this is quite rare and is more an exception rather than it being commonplace. Gigs have always been louder than clubs for me, and there's no way I'd say an average club is 105dB. That's crazy loud for a club, and is more like gig territory.

Cinemas are relatively quiet compared to clubs and gigs (all the ones I've visited, at least). You can expect dialogue scenes in the 60dB range, dramatic scenes in the 70dB range, and action scenes in the 80dB range. If you measured the Leq (or weighted average) for an entire action movie, it would likely be somewhere in the 70dB range, and a drama would probably be somewhere between the 60 and 70 decibel range.

 

[Sven]

I wore plugs at the game from where my profile pic is and I wear plugs at ice hockey games as well. I bring them to the movies, but the plugs make me enjoy movies much less, so I tend to watch movies at home on Blu-Ray instead of going to the cinema.

Also, we're all not equally sensitive, but once the T strikes, it strikes. And already damaged ears are probably more sensitive than healthy.

 

[dnl]

I've avoided movie theaters, sporting events and rock concerts since I got tinnitus a year or so ago. Sporting events and rock concerts can get up to a sustained 130 decibels. It's just not worth the risk. The loudest thing I do is mow my lawn, which is about 90-100 decibels, I've also taken a flight which was nearly as loud. For situations like those, I use 30+ decibel shooting range ear-muffs. You basically have head-gear on, but you don't have to worry about your ear-plugs not being in correctly. For restaurants, I use those standard orange ear plugs (from 3M), but if it gets loud, I leave. I haven't busted out the shooting range ear-muffs at a restaurant yet, but I might try that for laughs.

 

[Don Tinny]

It´s too risky. And after all you can´t really enjoy the concert / loud event thinking about decibels and monitoring your tinnitus.

Mine got worse after a concert with plugs.

 

[Ed209]

I've avoided movie theaters, sporting events and rock concerts since I got tinnitus a year or so ago. Sporting events and rock concerts can get up to a sustained 130 decibels

This is in the realm of the worlds loudest ever events though (other than natural disasters like Krakatoa). It's not a very common occurrence at all. The average rock show is around about 105dB. Nightclubs on average are around 90dB and cinemas are about 70dB - 80dB (with the peaks being in the 80's rather than the entire movie). The loudest football game in the UK this season measured 85dB (weighted average for the game). Most games were below 80dB.

sporting events tend to be nowhere near this level unless they are attempting one of those stupid world records for crowd noise.

I wear my -10dB filters at the cinema as a precaution, and if a band is playing in a bar I'm at I wear my -26dB filters. If someone invites me somewhere that has the potential to go insanely loud, or if I get caught out in an environment that goes insanely loud, I'd decline the invitation or leave. Thankfully, this very rarely happens as most places don't come close. The ones to watch out for more than anything are concerts (especially those in acoustically reflective environments).

 

[dnl]

sporting events tend to be nowhere near this level unless they are attempting one of those stupid world records for crowd noise.

A lot of domed stadiums in the United States can get pretty loud. I had the opportunity to go to a game in the Superdome (New Orleans, LA, USA) this year, and turned it down. I think last week when the opposing team was on offense, the decibel meter at that stadium hit 120/130. Crowds at American Football games make as much noise as possible to disrupt the opposing team's offense. It's a bit crazy here (on a lot of levels right now).

The average rock show is around about 105dB.

Metal shows (I'm guessing) are louder than this.

Anyway, point taken... most people won't encounter decibels at that level at every-day events.

 

[Bill Bauer]

You can expect dialogue scenes in the 60dB range, dramatic scenes in the 70dB range, and action scenes in the 80dB range.

Thank you for letting us know. If the above is true, it proves that many people with T have ears that have been so compromised, that even noises in the 80 dB range can cause their T to spike (sometimes permanently). I am saying this because a number of people got seriously hurt after being to movie theaters (and had posted about it here). The implication is that people need to be even more careful... Whatever you do, try to stay away from any noise above 80 dB.

 

[Ed209]

Whatever you do, try to stay away from any noise above 80 dB.

This is why I wear plugs as a precaution in the cinema. However, avoiding anything above 80dB in everyday life is practically impossible.

 

[Bill Bauer]

However, avoiding anything above 80dB in everyday life is practically impossible.

You can't avoid it, but you can do what you can to minimize the total exposure time...

 

[Tom Cnyc]

Hi, I would like some opinions regarding how effective custom ear plugs would be if I decided to attend loud public events. The ear plugs are 32 dB. Thank you.

They're very effective. I go to concerts all the time and have never had a spike so long as I wore my earplugs. The only thing that causes long term spikes for me is getting sick.

Obviously stand in the back, and take breaks. Unless your favorite song is on go outside every time one of your friends goes for a smoke, even if you don't. Be the guy that keeps someone company on the beer line.

As a musician a lot of my friends have tinnitus and none of them stopped going out - they just got smarter about it.

YMMV.

 

[Digital Doc]

Same here and I actually trained in sound engineering as well. There are a lot of assumptions and generalisations in that post that do not apply to all situations, and as you correctly pointed out, he is on the upper end of the spectrum.

Talking of sport, the loudest premier league game (in the UK) at the point of this being published was 85dB.

View attachment 25767

https://www.expressandstar.com/spor...wolves-fans-loudest-in-premier-league-so-far/

For bone conduction to be an issue, one would have to be in an extremely loud and damaging environment. From my experience, this is quite rare and is more an exception rather than it being commonplace. Gigs have always been louder than clubs for me, and there's no way I'd say an average club is 105dB. That's crazy loud for a club, and is more like gig territory.

Cinemas are relatively quiet compared to clubs and gigs (all the ones I've visited, at least). You can expect dialogue scenes in the 60dB range, dramatic scenes in the 70dB range, and action scenes in the 80dB range. If you measured the Leq (or weighted average) for an entire action movie, it would likely be somewhere in the 70dB range, and a drama would probably be somewhere between the 60 and 70 decibel range.

https://www.today.com/health/loud-movies-some-theaters-could-damage-your-hearing-experts-say-t104666

https://www.nbc4i.com/news/u-s-worl...getting-too-loud_20180403062525543/1096264371

Movies are loud and getting louder, to make them more exciting, and compete better against watching it at home. Look at the above links which show that movies with audio in the 90 db's and even higher have been easily found.

 

[Ed209]

https://www.today.com/health/loud-movies-some-theaters-could-damage-your-hearing-experts-say-t104666

https://www.nbc4i.com/news/u-s-worl...getting-too-loud_20180403062525543/1096264371

Movies are loud and getting louder, to make them more exciting, and compete better against watching it at home. Look at the above links which show that movies with audio in the 90 db's and even higher have been easily found.

I can only talk from experience. I've been to cinemas in the US and I've easily seen around 500 films or more at various cinemas around the UK. Since my tinnitus reached a new level in 2015, I measured various movies with a sound meter, all were none IMAX theatres. The highest I've ever recorded is a few low 90dB peaks, but they were very very rare. The average level of noise in all the movies I've been to (since 2015) has been nothing to really speak of compared to clubs and concerts. It's not what I'd consider imminently dangerous.

I have no doubt in some countries, or rogue cinemas, you may find obnoxiously loud movies. All I can say is that I haven't (none IMAX measurements). However, I still take my lowest-filtered, custom plugs, to the cinema nowadays.

 

[Ed209]

A lot of domed stadiums in the United States can get pretty loud. I had the opportunity to go to a game in the Superdome (New Orleans, LA, USA) this year, and turned it down. I think last week when the opposing team was on offense, the decibel meter at that stadium hit 120/130. Crowds at American Football games make as much noise as possible to disrupt the opposing team's offense. It's a bit crazy here (on a lot of levels right now).

I have no idea how loud a domed stadium is as I've never been in one, but premier league games are loud as far as sporting events go. British fans chant songs and make noise all through the games.

Metal shows (I'm guessing) are louder than this.

Slipknot, for example, limits their shows to 107dB, and that would be at the front near the speakers. I think the trend at rock shows is coming down in volume and the crazy days of playing at 130dB and having plaster falling off the walls is mainly a thing of the past.

 

[Holly1987]

When you use double protection, the total noise reduction is the maximum noise reduction of the two plus 5. So it was at most 38 dB of protection.

Really? Wow I didn't know that...

 

[Bill Bauer]

Really? Wow I didn't know that...

See tip#27 in the thread below
https://www.tinnitustalk.com/thread...eone-else-who-has-tinnitus.26850/#post-307822

27. https://www.coopersafety.com/earplugs-noise-reduction
https://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media...how-to-use-the-noise-reduction-rating-nrr.pdf

You might find the other tips there useful too.

 

[Bill Bauer]

At the Coopersafety link, see

How does wearing dual hearing protectors change NRR?
When hearing protectors are worn in combination (i.e. earplugs AND earmuffs), rather than adding the two NRR numbers together, you simply add five more decibels of protection to the device with the higher NRR. For example, using 3M™ E-A-R™ Classic Earplugs (NRR 29) with 3M™ Peltor™ H7 Deluxe Earmuffs (NRR 27) would provide a Noise Reduction Rating of approximately 34 decibels.