Concerts and Loud Shows with Earplugs — How Safe Are They with 32 dB NRR Custom Earplugs?

[Contrast]

I just went and seen Metallica last week and was right behind people on the floor.wasnt right up to stage but definitely close enough.i wore custom earplugs and took earmuffs and wore them.tinnitus was louder the next day but went back down to normal.i think it was louder the next day because I was worried about it spiking and not going down.

um no... clearly some nerves in your inner ears took a beating.

 

[AZeurotuner]

um no... clearly some nerves in your inner ears took a beating.

You have no way of knowing that. Stress and anxiety can absolutely cause temporary increases in tinnitus volume. Why would you say something like that as if it were fact?

 

[Contrast]

You have no way of knowing that. Stress and anxiety can absolutely cause temporary increases in tinnitus volume. Why would you say something like that as if it were fact?

she was at a loud concert near the front stage.

 

[AZeurotuner]

she was at a loud concert near the front stage.

True. But she was also wearing double protection. There's no way for either one of us to definitively say whether or not damage was inflicted on her auditory nerves. I don't know why you think it would be helpful for anyone to treat speculation as fact and tell someone they damaged their hearing. Are you trying to make people feel bad?

 

[jeannie]

Ummm no Contrast my ears didnt take a beating.i protected my ears I even took predisone the next couple of days just to make sure and took nac for a few weeks .my tinnitus is the same as it was before concert.i wasnt up by the stage I was back behind the floor area.yes more close than far away but when I stress my tinnitus gets louder ,its my normal tinnitus now.

 

[Ed209]

The reason they mentioned concerts is that they needed an example of a place where one might get exposed to 150 dB noise.

How are you weighting 150 dB of noise?

It's highly unlikely you'd get this at a concert unless there are pyrotechnics of some sort, and even then it's unlikely. UK law doesn't allow peaks (c weighted) above 140, and nowhere in the room can a concert go above 107dBA (some countries are 100dBA), no matter where you are standing. The average concert today is closer to 100dBA because gigs are getting quieter (trend-wise).

If Jeannie used double protection and had plugs correctly inserted then she was likely exposed to circa 70 dBA.

There will always be rogue bands and venues, but the main arenas will always comply with the laws.

 

[MichaelP]

How do they protect better? FWIW my customs have a NRR of 33db. You can change the filter.

Hey Tom,

What custom earplugs do you have?

I was thinking of getting the ACS Pros, which have the following filters: 10, 15, 17, 20, 26, 27 or 31 and the respective attenuation curves (10, 15 and 17 filters not shown on there). Do you think the 31s would be about equivalent to foam earplugs?

Thank you!
Michael

 

[Mister Muso]

Double protection provides no barrier against bass frequencies transmitted through the body. I've experienced this at an outdoor family friendly music festival I went to in the summer. It was just 20 minutes from my house and the band I used to play in was on the bill, so it would have seemed rude not to go. My old band was fine, but when the band after them came on I had to leave the venue. It was actually the double bass they were using, heavily amplified. The noise cancelling headphones made zero difference over and above my earplugs and I started to experience pain all around both ears. I'm sure earmuffs would have been no better.

I've not been to any concerts since then. No spikes or other after effects as I reckon I got away quick in time. It just isn't worth the hassle to think about going to another concert again for me now, and concerts used to be my life.

 

[Digital Doc]

The question for this post is like asking how safe it is to be shot while wearing a bulletproof vest. Clearly, it is safer with the protection than without, but no one can really say if it is safe, and finding out it is not has a pretty high price.

 

[Tom Cnyc]

How are you weighting 150 dB of noise?

It's highly unlikely you'd get this at a concert unless there are pyrotechnics of some sort, and even then it's unlikely. UK law doesn't allow peaks (c weighted) above 140, and nowhere in the room can a concert go above 107dBA (some countries are 100dBA), no matter where you are standing. The average concert today is closer to 100dBA because gigs are getting quieter (trend-wise).

If Jeannie used double protection and had plugs correctly inserted then she was likely exposed to circa 70 dBA.

There will always be rogue bands and venues, but the main arenas will always comply with the laws.

He doesn't go to concerts. His opinion on this is irrelevant.

 

[Tom Cnyc]

The question for this post is like asking how safe it is to be shot while wearing a bulletproof vest. Clearly, it is safer with the protection than without, but no one can really say if it is safe, and finding out it is not has a pretty high price.

No. It's more like having sex with a stranger with a condom on.

 

[Tom Cnyc]

Hey Tom,

What custom earplugs do you have?

I was thinking of getting the ACS Pros, which have the following filters: 10, 15, 17, 20, 26, 27 or 31 and the respective attenuation curves (10, 15 and 17 filters not shown on there). Do you think the 31s would be about equivalent to foam earplugs?

Thank you!
Michael

Brand doesn't matter. Just get them fitted by your audiologist. Regardless of who makes the silicon moulds your filters will come from Etymotic research, and can be replaced or your collection of filters can be upgraded via amazon.

9 dB filters are wonderful for loud bars.

15 dB filters are wonderful for jazz clubs.

25 dB filters are what you want if you're in a band and you are the drummer or stand near the drummer. They still let enough high end through to hear the band and dynamics.

Lately I've been using 3M over ear protection (27 dB) when I play drums though. It's just more convenient to take them on and off during breaks and my ears itch less.

The full cap (which I've seen advertised as 30-33 dB) doesn't attenuate evenly, and has lesser sound quality - but truth be told it is what I use most frequently at indoor concerts and 100% of dance music events. DJs CANNOT be trusted to not redline the speakers.

People will tell you that foam earplugs attenuate the best, but reasonably that's only if they're inserted properly. I'll trade a chance at 33 dB of reduction for guaranteed 30 dB of reduction anytime.

Also, foam just generally sucks for occlusion effect, which customs are much much much better about.

Lastly - Bone conduction is GROSSLY OVERESTIMATED as a danger on this site. Sound is attenuated by 40-60 dB by your skull. And that's measured at gun volume. Remember, hearing is logarithmic - so attenuating at 150 dB and at 120 dB are NOT the same thing. Attenuation levels are much lower at higher SPL.

A concert is 100 dB average tops. Relax. Any spike is likely more to do with anxious tooth grinding and your jaw than bone conduction.

Source - https://www.audiologyonline.com/ask-the-experts/hearing-loss-through-bone-conduction-522

 

[MichaelP]

Thanks for the thorough rundown, Tom.

Brand doesn't matter. Just get them fitted by your audiologist. Regardless of who makes the silicon moulds your filters will come from Etymotic research, and can be replaced or your collection of filters can be upgraded via amazon.

The ACS and ER filters look different (link below), do you mean that they're interchangeable whatever brand I go with, or just that they will be of the same quality?
https://www.pacificears.co.nz/product/pro-filters/
https://www.pacificears.co.nz/product/er-filters/

Your explanation of the different dB filters, the full cap and difference between them and the foam earplugs is most appreciated as well!

I actually went to a bar on Friday night (first time for about a month). I've never used a dB meter so I'm not a good judge of how loud it actually was, but I avoided all of the booming louder bars and wore Alpine MusicSafe Pro earplugs rated 18.5-22.9 NRR the entire time, which judging by what other people have said should have been more than sufficient. I also spent a lot of the evening outside. When I got home I noticed immediately the ringing was louder and this continued throughout Saturday and Sunday and isn't quite back to where it was even now, but appears to have settled down a bit. Needless to say it freaked me out a lot and is making me think I'm not quite ready for bars yet. Although, it's entirely possible I also made a stupid mistake like misjudging the dB level, bass level, fitting the earplugs incorrectly etc. (although they're pretty easy ones to fit and the videos/tutorials I've watched appear to be exactly how I did it), but I don't really have much prior experience to know if I misjudged anything. I'm planning on getting a dB meter to check for the future, so I can gauge how loud a place is. I've got one on my phone, but not sure of its accuracy.

Hopefully my reaction to those places will settle down over time, but I think I'll probably stick with the strongest ones for now if I find myself in a louder environment, just for peace of mind and to be on the safe side.

Thanks again for the help!

 

[Bill Bauer]

No. It's more like having sex with a stranger with a condom on.

Condoms are 98% effective at protecting against most STIs like chlamydia and gonorrhoea. However, condoms don't protect you from all STIs such as herpes, genital warts and syphilis which can be spread from skin-to-skin contact.

https://www.getthefacts.health.wa.gov.au/faqs/do-condoms-protect-against-all-stis
But let's ignore the STDs that condoms don't protect from. The reason people take that 2% chance of getting chlamydia or gonorrhoea is because those diseases can be treated. See the difference?

 

[Mister Muso]

How are you weighting 150 dB of noise?

It's highly unlikely you'd get this at a concert unless there are pyrotechnics of some sort, and even then it's unlikely. /QUOTE]
That's just the trouble. If concerts are getting quieter (which I'm not sure is the case), there is still the use of pyrotechnics, which is what gave me my first taste of tinnitus - a low-frequency pulsatile hum which I have had for 12 years now.

Even Paul McCartney uses pyro which is ridiculously loud. The performers, venue staff and sound engineers are all protected from this to some degree because they all use headsets or in-ear monitors nowadays. They forget what it's like for the punters, 90% of whom use no hearing protection.

Even supposing there is a 140db peak limit on pyrotechnic usage, that was enough to permanently damage my hearing. I shouldn't be surprised if they only let off a smaller version of the explosion they are planning to use in the show, just to keep the health and safety inspectors happy.

 

[Tom Cnyc]

https://www.getthefacts.health.wa.gov.au/faqs/do-condoms-protect-against-all-stis
But let's ignore the STDs that condoms don't protect from. The reason people take that 2% chance of getting chlamydia or gonorrhoea is because those diseases can be treated. See the difference?

Both of those are antibiotic resistant in 2019. People still fuck. My tinnitus is mostly inaudible right now and I play acoustic drums 4 days a week. Your mileage may vary but it hasn't hindered my recovery.

 

[Bill Bauer]

Both of those are antibiotic resistant in 2019. People still fuck.

People still don't get an education and work menial jobs for peanuts for the rest of their lives. Who cares what "people" do?

 

[Juan]

It's not safe, even wearing earplugs or earmuffs. That's why some concert tickets started printing caveats about hearing damage basically saying: "the sound is very loud, any damage is your own responsibility".

Concert organisers didnt do this 30 years ago, probably they changed after being sued.

 

[Tom Cnyc]

People still don't get an education and work menial jobs for peanuts for the rest of their lives. Who cares what "people" do?

We already know that you have no desire to lead a normal life. You've stated that you don't even see the need for human companionship.

We're never going to agree here.

This is a thread about how to safely attend a loud show, not how to be a hermit. Why even bother joining, man?

 

[Tom Cnyc]

Thanks for the thorough rundown, Tom.

The ACS and ER filters look different (link below), do you mean that they're interchangeable whatever brand I go with, or just that they will be of the same quality?
https://www.pacificears.co.nz/product/pro-filters/
https://www.pacificears.co.nz/product/er-filters/

Your explanation of the different dB filters, the full cap and difference between them and the foam earplugs is most appreciated as well!

I actually went to a bar on Friday night (first time for about a month). I've never used a dB meter so I'm not a good judge of how loud it actually was, but I avoided all of the booming louder bars and wore Alpine MusicSafe Pro earplugs rated 18.5-22.9 NRR the entire time, which judging by what other people have said should have been more than sufficient. I also spent a lot of the evening outside. When I got home I noticed immediately the ringing was louder and this continued throughout Saturday and Sunday and isn't quite back to where it was even now, but appears to have settled down a bit. Needless to say it freaked me out a lot and is making me think I'm not quite ready for bars yet. Although, it's entirely possible I also made a stupid mistake like misjudging the dB level, bass level, fitting the earplugs incorrectly etc. (although they're pretty easy ones to fit and the videos/tutorials I've watched appear to be exactly how I did it), but I don't really have much prior experience to know if I misjudged anything. I'm planning on getting a dB meter to check for the future, so I can gauge how loud a place is. I've got one on my phone, but not sure of its accuracy.

Hopefully my reaction to those places will settle down over time, but I think I'll probably stick with the strongest ones for now if I find myself in a louder environment, just for peace of mind and to be on the safe side.

Thanks again for the help!

Your tinnitus is brand new. I'll be honest, when it first hit me I took about 6 months off from going out because I was sensitive and getting spikes. That will fade and it will normalize, even though it probably will never truly go away.

I don't really know anything about the other filters you linked. They're much cheaper, which to me isn't a great sign. Everyone I know that uses customs has Etymotic filters.

 

[Tom Cnyc]

It's not safe, even wearing earplugs or earmuffs. That's why some concert tickets started printing caveats about hearing damage basically saying: "the sound is very loud, any damage is your own responsibility".

Concert organisers didnt do this 30 years ago, probably they changed after being sued.

Nobody has successfully sued a concert promoter over tinnitus or hearing loss.

Concert promoters do this because they're music lovers and they themselves have suffered consequences of not wearing hearing protection, and wish someone told them sooner.

I no longer host events, but I donate money to dancesafe, which is an non profit organization that gives out earplugs at concerts among other services.

This shit isn't nefarious. It's meant to keep people safe.

 

[Bill Bauer]

We already know that you have no desire to lead a normal life.

The way I see it, you are the one who has no desire to lead a normal life.

This is a thread about how to safely attend a loud show

It is a thread about Whether it is safe to attend a loud show. The answer is "no, it isn't safe, but some people get away with it. It isn't clear how long they will be able to continue to get away with it."

 

[Tom Cnyc]

The way I see it, you are the one who has no desire to lead a normal life.

It is a thread about Whether it is safe to attend a loud show. The answer is "no, it isn't safe, but some people get away with it. It isn't clear how long they will be able to continue to get away with it."

Absolutely nothing is without risks.

 

[Bill Bauer]

Absolutely nothing is without risks.

Very few activities have THIS much at stake. The worst part of tinnitus is that it Isn't a terminal disease, and one can spend decades in constant agony.

We already know that you have no desire to lead a normal life.

It might be normal to not have impulse control and to heavily discount the future, but it isn't right. As Thoreau had pointed out, most people lead lives of quiet desperation. Based on your post, it would appear that they chose that in return for a cheap thrill or two, as they had attempted to "lead a normal life". They wanted a normal life, and so they got one.

 

[Digital Doc]

Nobody has successfully sued a concert promoter over tinnitus or hearing loss.

Concert promoters do this because they're music lovers and they themselves have suffered consequences of not wearing hearing protection, and wish someone told them sooner.

I no longer host events, but I donate money to dancesafe, which is an non profit organization that gives out earplugs at concerts among other services.

This shit isn't nefarious. It's meant to keep people safe.

https://www.theguardian.com/culture...ins-royal-opera-house-case-for-hearing-damage

Successful lawsuit for noise exposure at a concert...

 

[Bill Bauer]

I think this is relevant to this discussion. Check out the last two profile posts on
https://www.tinnitustalk.com/members/mre.38375/

Ah fuck it. Cranking up Volbeat - A Warriors Call!

followed by (5 days later)

High frequencies are the fucking worst.

Enough said.

 

[Juan]

Nobody has successfully sued a concert promoter over tinnitus or hearing loss.

Concert promoters do this because they're music lovers and they themselves have suffered consequences of not wearing hearing protection, and wish someone told them sooner.

I no longer host events, but I donate money to dancesafe, which is an non profit organization that gives out earplugs at concerts among other services.

This shit isn't nefarious. It's meant to keep people safe.

In Britain a professional musician successfully sued the orchestra where he was playing after developing hyperacusis:

https://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-43571144

 

[MichaelP]

Your tinnitus is brand new. I'll be honest, when it first hit me I took about 6 months off from going out because I was sensitive and getting spikes. That will fade and it will normalize, even though it probably will never truly go away.

Fingers crossed, thanks!

I don't really know anything about the other filters you linked. They're much cheaper, which to me isn't a great sign. Everyone I know that uses customs has Etymotic filters.

For one ER filter it is 60NZD (40USD) and one ACS Pro filter is 45NZD (30 USD). So not a huge price difference, the site is a little confusing though, but it's the only place I've found that do them here (New Zealand)!

I've been doing a bit of reading and the attenuation seems to be flatter on the ACS, and I've heard there's less occlusion as well, but who knows.

Couple of graphs I found, although the Y-Axis is reversed for them, so not particularly easy to follow! The Pro-26 looks a lot flatter than the ER-25, but I'm sure they're all effectively the same.



Thanks a lot for all your advice!

 

[Ed209]

https://www.theguardian.com/culture...ins-royal-opera-house-case-for-hearing-damage

Successful lawsuit for noise exposure at a concert...

I remember this case as it broke. To be fair though, this would be considered a work-related incident. Most orchestral players have tinnitus and/or hearing problems due to the nature of their job. Orchestras can be extremely loud.

Suing for attending a concert of any kind would be incredibly hard to win because people know these types of events will be loud. Most tickets in the UK have a small disclaimer on the back that states the risk to hearing is at the patrons' discretion and that the venue won't be held liable. I remember seeing that on the back of my first ever concert ticket in the '90s.

In my opinion, this warning shouldn't be hidden away in the small print on the back. Promoters should be made to put the warning on the front so that more people have the opportunity to heed the caution by using earplugs. However, even if it was I highly doubt many would because people never believe it will happen to them, until it does.

 

[Fifth Business]

I remember this case as it broke. To be fair though, this would be considered a work-related incident.

I mean, that seems obvious and is unambiguously dissimilar from what Tom was saying? I hope the good doctor doesn't cite this case in his medical practice.