Deactivating Automotive Airbags

[Vinnitus]

Will give you an analogy looking to the future. Driverless cars are the future. In thirty years, people won't be behind the wheel. You will call up your car ride to your door on your computer...likely by voice command. A news flash. All technology is fallible. Guess what? These cars will kill people, just like airbags do. That's right, driverless cars will kill people. But....currently conventional automotive transporation kills 30,000 per year in America like clockwork....many even with airbag technology. Driverless cars will kill MUCH fewer. But, this technology will fail from time to time, accidents will occur and people will be killed by this new technology as well.

Yes, I know this. Being a software engineer myself I know how many things can go wrong within a system. Often these are a result of human error or unforeseen exceptions taking place in unforeseen scenarios. My point however was, that the only problem I had with airbags is that such scenarios CAN and WILL take place (in the beginnings usually more often than when the technology has been around for some time and its flaws ironed out), compared to the scenario where you would have gotten away unscathed if such technology was not present. That is regrettable and hence I said we should keep improving the technology rather than deactivate it.

I can however understand the people who got involved in minor low-collision accidents (perhaps they were early-adopters of this technology), had their airbags deployed giving them hearing loss, and consequently wishing they deactivated their airbags. It is not a rational thing to do, but we all know most Tinnitus sufferers go through the "what if" phase when acquiring this condition.

 

[Vinnitus]

May as well give it up my friend. Talking to this guy is like talking to a post! Nothing sinks in!

Thank you. I guess I'm not the target of your statement though, as I actually agree with the idea that deactivating airbags is a bad idea. Anyway, I will leave this conversation, as I see there is a lot of heat going on here, which I deem unnecessary for healthy conversation.

 

[Bobby B]

@LeQuack
not sure about the belt tensioner - good point, thanks.
I assume the same computer is in charge since this is where the signal from the sensors in coming in and all is fired from there .. I am not even sure my car has such device.

Like I wrote before, I am usually driving cars with no seat belts so I am not very familiar with all this technology but our air bag/safety expert can maybe shine some light on this

 

[LeQuack]

@LeQuack
not sure about the belt tensioner - good point, thanks.
I assume the same computer is in charge since this is where the signal from the sensors in coming in and all is fired from there .. I am not even sure my car has such device.

Maybe you can check with the service people, they should probably know? Also would be grateful if you can post the answer here.

 

[stophiss]

Yes, I know this. Being a software engineer myself I know how many things can go wrong within a system. Often these are a result of human error or unforeseen exceptions taking place in unforeseen scenarios. My point however was, that the only problem I had with airbags is that such scenarios CAN and WILL take place (in the beginnings usually more often than when the technology has been around for some time and its flaws ironed out), compared to the scenario where you would have gotten away unscathed if such technology was not present. That is regrettable and hence I said we should keep improving the technology rather than deactivate it.

I can however understand the people who got involved in minor low-collision accidents (perhaps they were early-adopters of this technology), had their airbags deployed giving them hearing loss, and consequently wishing they deactivated their airbags. It is not a rational thing to do, but we all know most Tinnitus sufferers go through the "what if" phase when acquiring this condition.

With respect, you still don't get it. I know, its a complex subject and few understand it. In bold, point is statistically, they wouldn't have gotten away unscathed....oh a subset would. But many would die without an airbag, even at lower speed for the reason I explained, cabin intrusion. So you state a false premise. Airbag technology started development in the 1970's. The best and brightest from the best engineering schools have worked on this technology and still do. I know many of them. Airbags are designed for the collective good and they help the collective good or there would have been a public outcry to ban them....too many people going deaf or injured needlessly.
Maybe we should state our common ground even though you equivocate on the overall value of airbags. Its a personal choice to deactivate them. What is important however is this choice doesn't affect others and it sadly, generally will. Not unlike the Mom who never wears her seatbelt and never buckles up her kids and may even deactivate the seatbelt alarm because she finds it annoying.

 

[stophiss]

@LeQuack
not sure about the belt tensioner - good point, thanks.
I assume the same computer is in charge since this is where the signal from the sensors in coming in and all is fired from there .. I am not even sure my car has such device.

Like I wrote before, I am usually driving cars with no seat belts so I am not very familiar with all this technology but our air bag/safety expert can maybe shine some light on this

The belt tensioner which is typically a pyrotechnic charge is many times autonomous of other air bag computers and sensors. You would have to study the wire harness and wiring diagram to trace back to airbag master module (computer). And to let people understand why this technology exists...it is for both comfort and restraint effectiveness. Comfort because seat belt tension can be low which promotes some mobility of the passenger and pre-tensioning snugs the belt firmly upon a crash to constrain the passenger more effectively than a conventional ratcheting seatbelt with more inherit freedom. An occupant that isn't allowed to accelerate not only better controls the airbag relationship but keeps the occupant from being harmed by accelerating up against the belt itself which can actually break bones if the belt is adjusted too loose.

 

[MikeP505]

healthy conversation

I am not trying to target anyone for believing is doing what they feel comfortable with. Never have. Just hope anyone who does this override informs your insurer on the vehicle. Your liability coverage covers you, and all passengers, pedestrians etc. Just hate to see someone get sued in an accident lose everything and still suffer this tinnitus.

How many times has your smoke alarm accidentally gone off? You burn the toast in the toaster.... beep beep beep LOUD. They go off often for non emergency situations. Happens right? Do we ban sirens in emergency vehicles in case they come around the corner when your walking the dog screeeeeeeming loud noises?? Where does it end?

Just inform your insurer about the deactivation. Thats all I suggest here. Best wishes everyone. Try not to stress.

 

[Vinnitus]

With respect, you still don't get it. I know, its a complex subject and few understand it. In bold, point is statistically, they wouldn't have gotten away unscathed....oh a subset would. But many would die without an airbag, even at lower speed for the reason I explained, cabin intrusion. So you state a false premise. Airbag technology started development in the 1970's. The best and brightest from the best engineering schools have worked on this technology and still do. I know many of them. Airbags are designed for the collective good and they help the collective good or there would have been a public outcry to ban them....too many people going deaf or injured needlessly.
Maybe we should state our common ground even though you equivocate on the overall value of airbags. Its a personal choice to deactivate them. What is important however is this choice doesn't affect others and it sadly, generally will. Not unlike the Mom who never wears her seatbelt and never buckles up her kids and may even deactivate the seatbelt alarm because she finds it annoying.

There has been actual research about the "fine line" for whether to deploy airbags or not.

http://archive.sph.harvard.edu/press-releases/archives/2000-releases/press09282000.html

The study finds that deployment of airbags at crash speeds below 20 miles per hour increases the likelihood of injury among all drivers. Broken down by gender, the crash speeds are 32 MPH for women and 8 MPH for men. In crashes above those speeds, the airbags have a net protective effect. Below those speeds, they have a net injurious impact.

This seems to imply that moving around in a car at low speed (below 20mph), colliding with an object and an airbag deploying would on average result in more injury than protection. This is actually the situation I was referring to with hitting a pole at low speeds. Early-generation airbags apparently had this low-treshold setting as this article seems to imply it was adjusted for newer implementations, which made airbags a safer technology later on.

Technology has (unforeseen) faults and has to evolve to a situation where faults are less prevalent. Until that time, people are at increased risk of being inappropriately affected by the implementation of the technology and will blame the technology for their misfortune.

 

[Bobby B]

Here is an interesting story, low speed hit:

http://hearinglosshelp.com/blog/hearing-loss-and-air-bags/

 

[Champ]

It is unlikely that a short burst of sound of 100 decibels or higher is going to cause tinnitus or damage to one's hearing. Hearing damage is usually caused by time exposed - duration sustained length of time. However, this is just my opinion as I'm not an expert.

Tell that to people who got it shooting a gun.

 

[MikeP505]

Here is an interesting story, low speed hit:

Agreed. Very sad to hear about these low speed deployments. Never will argue your point to disable the airbags. They always frightened me a little. Just wish you all cover the legal bases in these decisions. I owned cars for years that never had an airbag. Had a few fender benders too. You have the obligation to inform your insurance company when you make modifications to your vehicle. Why not try to protect your finances too?

 

[Foncky]

@Bobby B It's almost my case too, remember. Got my severe increase (= life changer) in T, H and HL because of a popped balloon inside a car, just next to my head. Very similar to an airbag noise, except the balloon was probably "only" 120 to 140dB (and only one balloon).

I just wish some of you could avoid the word "crazy" when they write about another member, even if you really don't agree with him. Nobody is crazy here, we're all just people suffering at different levels from this shitty condition.

 

[Michael Leigh]

Tell that to people who got it shooting a gun.

That usually happens in a closed environment. I think it's ridicules driving around with ear defenders waiting for an airbag to blow.....Paranoia

 

[Bobby B]

Well that lady, Lisa in her story posted above, had perfect "virgin ears" before the airbags explosion and she still suffered permanent hearing damage and T.

I cannot begin to imagine what someone with existing acoustic trauma and T would get in the same situation.. a lot worse for sure, with unbearable H on top of that loud T

 

[Michael Leigh]

I just wish some of you could avoid the word "crazy" when they write about another member, even if you really don't agree with him. Nobody is crazy here, we're all just people suffering at different levels from this shitty condition.

The right way to treat tinnitus and hyperacusis (sensitivity to sound) is not to deactivate a car's airbags or to drive around with earplugs and earmuffs rapped up like an eskimo. It needs TREATMENT and the right kind which I've already mentioned, otherwise this fear of sound could develop into phonophobia.

 

[Foncky]

@Michael Leigh I appreciate your knowledge and the way you certainly helped many people here. But this thread is not about treating T and H. It's about avoiding a worsening that could lead you in a very, very dark place. You don't believe a single loud noise can be dangerous, all right. Say that to a hunter I know : he lost all his hearing in one ear after a single shotgun with no protection. It was outside. He has no T fortunately. What do you suggest him ? (apart from the hearing aid he already uses)

Well that lady, Lisa in her story posted above, had perfect "virgin ears" before the airbags explosion and she still suffered permanent hearing damage and T.

I cannot begin to imagine what someone with existing acoustic trauma and T would get in the same situation.. a lot worse for sure, with unbearable H on top of that loud T

I do. My ears were fragile before but I could never imagine a single noise would lead me to this level of T.

 

[stophiss]

The right way to treat tinnitus and hyperacusis (sensitivity to sound) is not to deactivate a car's airbags or to drive around with earplugs and earmuffs rapped up like an eskimo. It needs TREATMENT and the right kind which I've already mentioned, otherwise this fear of sound could develop into phonophobia.

Actually, there is something much worse than phonophobia...its called airbagophobia. In fact, airbagophobia can cause measles in family pets and turn your lawn brown. Just quoting some bogus studies I have read.
Just remember boys and girls you heard it here first. Low speed crashes with airbags hurt people not help. Forget all the exhaustive studies performed including design and production validation testing and why staged inflators were developed to tailor crash severity to inflator output. Its a secret plot orchestrated by NHSTA to keep the driving population down.

 

[Kazue]

The main safety device is the seat belt. No one is flying through windows chill out buddy.

You are only 15 so you never experienced the time when cars had no airbags at all and we still weren't dying like flies at the wheel, or flying through windows back then either, and we also had fun riding motorcycles as well with our girlfriends in the back seat and face to the wind..so all this bubble wrap safe life - lawsuit scare BS can stop right now.

Airbags technology is still very new - the bags are way too loud ! a 170 db time bomb close to my ears isn't a safety device in my book and yes the probability that it deploys during a low speed collision is higher because people pay less attention when driving slow.

In fact bags need to be disabled for smaller children because they can get their head blown away in addition to the noise blast , so if we cannot protect kids with air bags then I don't see any reason to protect my old self either.

Again, the only person who did post about her experience getting acoustic trauma T due to bags deployment clearly said she regret not having those bags disabled so lets take her opinion as reference... she is a mother after all and I value her opinion since she had the actual real world experience unlike all the other participants to this thread.

My age has nothing to do with my experiences. I personally have been in two car accidents. The airbags are what saved me from flying out the window. The crash was caused by assholes much younger than me. The airbags are loud because they're being deployed at a fast rate to protect you. That's why children sit in the back so they won't get injured. No to mention car seats make it much safer so they won't fly forward. Children are able to sit in the front seat when they're 12 and older. Pretty sure they can hold their neck up by then. I understand though. She may have got T but she still has her life. She should be grateful and blessed for still having her child as well. It could have ended much worse.

 

[Ed209]

The right way to treat tinnitus and hyperacusis (sensitivity to sound) is not to deactivate a car's airbags or to drive around with earplugs and earmuffs rapped up like an eskimo. It needs TREATMENT and the right kind which I've already mentioned, otherwise this fear of sound could develop into phonophobia.

Michael, there is a clear divide on this forum on how to best deal with tinnitus. Some adopt a 'protect at all costs' approach, whilst others - including myself - adopt more of a 'protect when necessary approach.

As many know, I'm firmly in camp number two. I believe the problem with the first approach is twofold. Firstly, the very act of using ear muffs/plugs (for everyday use) can be considered tinnitus related activity, thus reenforcing or teaching your brain that there's a problem. In NLP/psychology there is a well known method of learning to associate an emotion with an action called 'anchoring'. The brain begins to associate a feeling/emotion to a particular trigger if it is repeated enough. I believe that overuse of protection just starts a process of catastrophic thinking that is not helpful or useful at all.

Secondly, each time you use protection during unecesarry circumstances, it brings the volume of your tinnitus up. Your consciousness is actually forced to listen to it at a higher level. Again, if this is done repeatedly over an extended amount of time I believe it can lead to your brain turning the gain up on your auditory inputs, essentially making tinnitus louder still.

We all know that this can lead to a stress/tinnitus anxiety feedback loop. The best method is to ignore tinnitus as much as humanly possibly. Don't let tinnitus drive your decision processes at all. The more you ignore it the more you start to care less about it.

 

[Michael Leigh]

airbagophobia

Thanks for that @stophiss never heard of airbagophobia. I suppose if one thinks of it anything can turn into a phobia!

 

[Michael Leigh]

I do. My ears were fragile before but I could never imagine a single noise would lead me to this level of T.

I hear you Foncky and everything that you are saying about protecting one's hearing. With all due respect, I think you and a couple other members are becoming obsessed with protecting hearing from loud noise.

I would like to ask you a question and hope that you don't mind. When were you last examined at ENT? I know that you have had tinnitus for some time. Have you been under the care of a Hearing Therapist for treatment of your tinnitus and hyperacusis? If so what kind of treatment? I would appreciate it if you could answer.
Many Thanks
Michael

 

[stophiss]

Thanks for that @stophiss never heard of airbagophobia. I suppose if one thinks of it anything can turn into a phobia!

Airbagophobia has many roots. Some believe it relates to eye balls popping out of people's heads when the airbag goes off. Maybe someone will post another dated non scientific study here to substantiate more unfounded claims.

There have been even more obscure studies performed that hopefully somebody will post. This relates to turning into a savant after an airbag deployment....the ability to create great art, compose music and perform higher mathematics. In some ways, this condition offsets other prevailing phobias about airbags because many traits of a savant are considered positive.

 

[Foncky]

@Michael Leigh I don't deny at all that I developed some kind of phonophobia or whatever we can call it (fear of loud - sudden - noise).

It doesn't do me any good, I know it, but my life changed 10 months ago because of a stupid balloon. I was the type of person who was able to perfectly handle his T and H before, without ever looking for support on the internet for 12 years.

So :
- I have been a "solid" T sufferer for years, without complaining or even telling it to my family
- I realized a single loud noise can be very harmful with physiological heavy consequences. You start a different life in less than a second
- I suffer from PTSD is some way, but it's only a consequence of a shitty medical condition (inner ears damage) due to an accident

I saw 6 ENTs in 2016. All of them were specialized in different fields so I was able to get a very complete examination. None of them recommended TRT, hearing aids or something else. Just : protect your ears, it will calm down, and new treatments may be coming.

I follow a psychological therapy but no hearing therapy so far. I also saw dentists, physiotherapists and different specialists to make sure nothing is forgotten.

I'm waiting for an appointment with a top-level neurologist specialized in hearing disorders.

 

[Michael Leigh]

@Foncky Thank you for sharing some personal details on your condition and treatment. You certainly have been through the mill. Please accept my apologies, for I now see what you're going through and the lengths that you go to protect your hearing isn't one of obsession.
As I've always said you have to walk in a person's shoes to know what they're going though. I hope that you are able to eventually get some treatment that works for you and can put your life back on track.
All the best
Michael

 

[Ed209]

@Michael Leigh I don't deny at all that I developed some kind of phonophobia or whatever we can call it (fear of loud - sudden - noise).

It doesn't do me any good, I know it, but my life changed 10 months ago because of a stupid balloon. I was the type of person who was able to perfectly handle his T and H before, without ever looking for support on the internet for 12 years.

So :
- I have been a "solid" T sufferer for years, without complaining or even telling it to my family
- I realized a single loud noise can be very harmful with physiological heavy consequences. You start a different life in less than a second
- I suffer from PTSD is some way, but it's only a consequence of a shitty medical condition (inner ears damage) due to an accident

I saw 6 ENTs in 2016. All of them were specialized in different fields so I was able to get a very complete examination. None of them recommended TRT, hearing aids or something else. Just : protect your ears, it will calm down, and new treatments may be coming.

I follow a psychological therapy but no hearing therapy so far. I also saw dentists, physiotherapists and different specialists to make sure nothing is forgotten.

I'm waiting for an appointment with a top-level neurologist specialized in hearing disorders.

Foncky, this is a very similar story to my own. I also had tinnitus for well over 10 years and never had any issue with it. I never needed a support forum either; it just didn't bother me at all. Replace your balloon incident with a particularly loud gig and here I am. I was a broken man; it completely devastated my life. In fact the word devastation is an understatement, however, I'm now on a much better path both mentally and physically. I sincerely hope you can find some kind of solice as well.

 

[Michael Leigh]

It doesn't do me any good, I know it, but my life changed 10 months ago because of a stupid balloon. I was the type of person who was able to perfectly handle his T and H before, without ever looking for support on the internet for 12 years.

I had a similar event to yours Foncky. I was managing my tinnitus quite well and at times forgot completely about it, that's how low it was. It can be a big mistake when you forget that you have tinnitus. One evening in 2008 was listening to my HI-FI to a Haydn Symphony to be exact. Turned up the music as I was enjoying so much and afterwards went to bed with no problems. The next morning my tinnitus came back with a vengeance and then the nightmare began.

For three weeks it got progressively louder so I was seen at ENT and started TRT for the second time. For two years I was unable to read a book and my previous life as I'd known it was gone. In 2010, for the first time I really felt depressed about my tinnitus. Although there was some improvement with the TRT, it wasn't as successful as when I had it in 1997 when it had reduced to a level I hardly heard it.

What I was left with in 2010 was a completely different beast, that's the only way to describe it. I had huge fluctuations in the tinnitus severity from: silent to mild, moderate, severe and extremely severe. My consultant and hearing therapist thought it most unusual as they hadn't seen a tinnitus patient affected in this way.

As I said in 2010 I felt depressed for the first time in a long time about my tinnitus. I asked my consultant to please be candid about my condition. The had helped a little but that was it. She looked at me and said: " In all the years I've been an Audiovestibular Consultant, I've only met one other tinnitus patient as bad as you."
I wanted the floor to open up and swallow me whole as I felt so low. She then said: " I will never give up on treating you". I was then prescribed clonazepam which helped a lot but was told of it's addictive nature.

It took 4 years for me to habituate again and now I'm still left with large fluctuations in my tinnitus from Silent to very severe but I'm coping.
I would appreciate it Foncky if you can please tell me how your tinnitus is and the way it affects you? Also, would you be able to use sound enrichment at night at a very low level?
Thanks
Michael

 

[Foncky]

@Ed209 @Michael Leigh thank you guys, means a lot.

Michael, no need for apologies, I think I need people like you, able to make me reconsider the way I see my present and my future.

Ed, I will re-read your story. I must say I admire (and I envy) the way you are able to function quite well again. I will try to open a thread about my story, so people can understand better why I'm so obsessed about sudden loud noises

Michael again : my popped balloon was stupid, but Haydn music is not, you can never imagine such enjoyment will hurt you. Sorry for this event. I'll re-read your story too.

About my T : it never stopped to worsen for the past 10 months (I was able to identify different reasons). It is now in both ears, always loud (high pitched), but never quite the same. I have multiple sounds and their frequencies slightly change every 2 to 3 seconds. I have more and more episodes of "mega T" (unbelievably loud), which sometimes last for a scary minute or two. T is also reactive : when the surrounding level of noise goes up, T goes up with it.

Nothing masks my T (hearing loss up to 65 dB @6kHz). Add H, pain, fullness, eardrums vibrations, and you get a pretty good idea of my symptoms. H affects me the most, as I had to quit my job and forget about a lot of things (at least for now). T is pretty hard too, because it takes a lot of my attention. I'm starting a new business, and I'm slow, very slow. My brain is just not quite there. I love music, but can't enjoy it at all now. I can barely read a book.

I could use a sound machine at night, yes. I did it a few months to fall asleep. I don't need it anymore but I could try to use it again.

 

[MikeP505]

The more you ignore it the more you start to care less about it.

Brilliant! Well said!

 

[Sen]

Sen would you say you are depressed?

Absolutely. My life is a trash can.

It's not really a sane or rational way of thinking to say you'd rather be severely disabled or dead.

I don't recall ever saying I'd rather be severely disabled than having worsened T and H, those are words you put into my mouth, but I would certainly rather be dead. I'd almost rather be dead than alive right now, actually. My tinnitus hardly bothers me these days. The unyielding hyperacusis, among vertigo, ear/facial/head pain, among other symptoms are my major struggles.

I disagree that wanting to be dead is always irrational. When you contribute nothing to society, live in constant suffering, and have noone in your life who values your presence, what value is there to your life? If anything it would be better if I were dead.

You would also likely benefit from seeing a psychologist or counsellor of some kind to address your problems

You act like I've never sought out this kind of help in the 4+ years since this started. I have yet to be assisted in any way by any of these clowns. One of the psychiatrists I saw insisted on prescribing me amphetamines. Laughable. The same guy also said that he doesn't think I'm depressed.

Don't let tinnitus force you to think this way, it really doesn't have to be like that. There is help out there. Nothing is insurmountable.

It doesn't. I'm mostly fine with my tinnitus these days. It rarely bothers me anymore, although I would prefer to not have it worsen. 4+ months of TRT and my hyperacusis only got worse, though. And now I have a ton of new super fun symptoms on top of it.

I look forward to hearing your stunning insight into my thoughts and situation.

 

[Tweaker]

I do worry that one day the airbags will go off and finish me off for good. Racing cars dont have airbags, they have a harness. I wish the public were given a choice over this. I would choose a harness and a helmet over a dozen airbags, anyday. Modern cars have airbags all over the place, ready to explode. I need to buy a newer car soon and I am concerned for me and my children about the noise of multiple airbags. Are so many airbags necessary? The otologic damage caused by airbags is well documented. This is not being paranoid, it's a fact. Maybe I will save up for an F1 with no airbags.
I don't condone disabling airnags (because of passengers) but if it were just me in the car I would prefer not to have them. It's annoying we have no say or choice in the matter when buying a modern car.