Deactivating Automotive Airbags

[Ed209]

Absolutely. My life is a trash can.



I don't recall ever saying I'd rather be severely disabled than having worsened T and H, those are words you put into my mouth, but I would certainly rather be dead. I'd almost rather be dead than alive right now, actually. My tinnitus hardly bothers me these days. The unyielding hyperacusis, among vertigo, ear/facial/head pain, among other symptoms are my major struggles.

I disagree that wanting to be dead is always irrational. When you contribute nothing to society, live in constant suffering, and have noone in your life who values your presence, what value is there to your life? If anything it would be better if I were dead.


You act like I've never sought out this kind of help in the 4+ years since this started. I have yet to be assisted in any way by any of these clowns. One of the psychiatrists I saw insisted on prescribing me amphetamines. Laughable. The same guy also said that he doesn't think I'm depressed.



It doesn't. I'm mostly fine with my tinnitus these days. It rarely bothers me anymore, although I would prefer to not have it worsen. 4+ months of TRT and my hyperacusis only got worse, though. And now I have a ton of new super fun symptoms on top of it.

I look forward to hearing your stunning insight into my thoughts and situation.

Wasn't trying to offend you, your post just made it clear you wasn't very happy. I suppose psychology is very dependant upon the person you see and the rapport you have with them. They can be very hit and miss. My mom suffers from severe depression so I've seen it all with her. Two of the psychologists she saw were absolutely awful, they actually made her worse. Then she started seeing this one guy who was truly life changing, he turned her life around 180 degrees. She still suffers with depression but he has taken her from suicidal to a pretty happy place. Life can change, I suppose the first step is to actually believe it yourself.

 

[Bobby B]

In the USA it's perfectly legal to have an auto repair shop disable your airbag provided you submit a medical certificate stating that you have a medical condition where airbag explosions could be a major risk.

I have a medical certificate stating that I have moderate hearing loss, hyperacusis and tinnitus due to loud blasts acoustic trauma (firearms ) therefore I qualify for that - end of the story .

No depression or anxiety involved here

I would not recommend disabling airbags for someone with good ears because chances are that a 170db short blast isn't going to make a noticeable difference.

What's more I've been driving 40 years in cars with no airbags and sometimes no seat belts without issues or accidents so far so at my stage it's non-issue.

 

[MikeP505]

I would not recommend disabling airbags for someone with good ears

Thanks for making this recommendation. I agree with your situation about air bag damages. This does not apply to all. Nice to see you tell others it is not always recommended unless certain conditions apply. Would also be nice if you tell these people to contact the insurer of the vehicle to inform them of all modifications, just to be safe. Regards.

 

[rzhang]

Drive a giant monster truck. This solves all your problems OP. Tey'll just end up crashing into your wheels. I am not even joking

 

[stophiss]

I do worry that one day the airbags will go off and finish me off for good. Racing cars dont have airbags, they have a harness. I wish the public were given a choice over this. I would choose a harness and a helmet over a dozen airbags, anyday. Modern cars have airbags all over the place, ready to explode. I need to buy a newer car soon and I am concerned for me and my children about the noise of multiple airbags. Are so many airbags necessary? The otologic damage caused by airbags is well documented. This is not being paranoid, it's a fact. Maybe I will save up for an F1 with no airbags.
I don't condone disabling airnags (because of passengers) but if it were just me in the car I would prefer not to have them. It's annoying we have no say or choice in the matter when buying a modern car.

Well..I explained previously why racing cars don't have airbags if you care to read the whole thread. Airbags as you say 'ready to explode' are there to save your life in a 'multiple' of different crash scenarios including side impact and roll over. You don't have modern day options because most (a few here prefer not to with a special hearing condition) will exchange peril to their hearing to saving their life in a violent crash and FWIW today and tomorrow, sadly somebody is going to die on America's highway due to a vehicle crash in a scenario you likely couldn't even predict. Airbags generally help saving lives, but sometimes crashes are so violent, they don't help as well. Head on crashes...some know survivors...take out too many people and family members.
Now you can buy a modern vehicle and disable the airbags, but think of your kids and neighbors or friends that ride with you. If you give rides to kids, be sure to tell the parents of the kids before you take them for a ride. Most parents will not be OK with their kids riding in a vehicle without an airbag.

PS: many own older muscle cars and motorycles have no airbags as well. FWIW, the decision to not only add seatbelts but shoulder restraint monumentally saves lives and limited disfigurement of driver and passengers in even ordinary crashes. Decision to drive these is based upon personal preference. I grew up in a time without airbags and survived. But, I became involved in automobile design after getting out of engineering school...actually I built custom cars and motorcycles throughout my life...and I know the dangers of driving including spending time witnessing vehicle crash testing and understand why 'in aggregate' air bags save lives.

 

[stophiss]

Drive a giant monster truck. This solves all your problems OP. Tey'll just end up crashing into your wheels. I am not even joking

True. Many know this instinctively and also why many school buses don't have lap belts in fact. Law of the jungle. For math buffs, google conservation of momentum and definition of kinetic energy...physics can't be denied only managed. But when a monster truck hits a bridge abutment at 70 mph...all bets are off

Bigger is generally safer and even something to consider as people buy tiny cars for their kids.
So called crash ratings of individual vehicles are based upon a testing standard and reality is...when big hits small, small loses almost always...airbags or no airbags. Only so much energy management can be built into small cars with less metal and crumple zone to absorb aka attenuate the kinetic energy imparted from a more massive vehicle traveling the same speed and opposite direction...or even 90 degrees to line of travel. Small guys that were silly enough to play football also understand this.

As a side bar, some may know that recent Honda Gullwing motorcycles have an airbag:

 

[Bobby B]

We need a way to set those sensors systems so that bags only explode when it's over a certain speed where it becomes a matter a life preservation - maybe 80kmh or above.

Maybe more expensive cars already have these not sure .

In my car manual I think it is 15kmh where it starts , this is what got me worried - a slow speed disaster like that poor Lisa experienced.
In general people pay less attention when it's slow like being stuck in boring traffic jams or the like

 

[Ecip]

We need a way to set those sensors systems so that bags only explode when it's over a certain speed where it becomes a matter a life preservation - maybe 80kmh or above.

Maybe more expensive cars already have these not sure .

In my car manual I think it is 15kmh where it starts , this is what got me worried - a slow speed disaster like that poor Lisa experienced.
In general people pay less attention when it's slow like being stuck in boring traffic jams or the like

Well, at 15km/h, in a frontal impact, if the airbag deploys, it wouldn't be a full force. The force of deployment will depend on the speed travelled and the severity of the impact.

 

[stophiss]

Well, at 15km/h, in a frontal impact, if the airbag deploys, it wouldn't be a full force. The force of deployment will depend on the speed travelled and the severity of the impact.

There is what you say on newer airbag equipped cars. This is called staged inflator performance...correlation to speed and ferocity of airbag fill which would loosely correlate to dB level within a wide spectrum of loudness based on many factors from cabin space to no. of airbags, to airbag configuration.

Where Bobby is wrong...and Bobby, no...airbag threshold isn't adjustable because if left to guys like you...sorry...you would adjust the threshold of firing based upon 'your' erroneous perception of danger. What you need to understand is, manufacturers adjust the vehicle speed of a given vehicle for airbag deployment...crash pulse of a given chassis is predicated on many variables...based upon what speed they perceive there is danger to its occupants. This isn't a speed you can pull out of thin air. Mfger's don't arbitrarily set this speed low. This speed is determine by Chest G's and what is called HIC or Head Impact Criterion and many other biomechanical factors based upon laboratory testing for 'each' vehicle model manufactured throughout the world:
http://www.intmath.com/applications-integration/hic-head-injury-criterion.php

To put the firing threshold in the lap of a layperson to determine is silly when engineers struggle with understanding what level of restraint is needed to save the entire demographic range of body size and age. Its a hugely complex equation and no person off the street could ever determine this threshold without putting others at risk.

 

[Foncky]

Well, at 15km/h, in a frontal impact, if the airbag deploys, it wouldn't be a full force. The force of deployment will depend on the speed travelled and the severity of the impact.

An explosive noise is still an explosive noise.

 

[stophiss]

An explosive noise is still an explosive noise.

No...you didn't understand what was written. A lower speed, lower inflator stage deployment will not emit the same dB level compared to both stages deploying simultaneously associated with higher speed crashes.
Dual stage inflator airbag systems are created to tailor inflator output and bag fill speed and hardness based upon vehicle speed. The higher the speed, the faster the bag needs to deploy and the firmer the bag has to be to prevent what is called strike through for larger occupants. Conversely, a softer bag is more effective i.e. causes less occupant G loads for lower speed crashes. For lower speed, only the primary stage of the inflator deploys which will be quieter than both stages at the same time.

 

[Foncky]

Ok ! It's like a two-stages rocket ?

About seatbelts pretensioners. Some cars (old ones probably) don't use explosives, but something like a coil.

Is it efficient as well ?

 

[Sen]

No...you didn't understand what was written. A lower speed, lower inflator stage deployment will not emit the same dB level compared to both stages deploying simultaneously associated with higher speed crashes.
Dual stage inflator airbag systems are created to tailor inflator output and bag fill speed and hardness based upon vehicle speed. The higher the speed, the faster the bag needs to deploy and the firmer the bag has to be to prevent what is called strike through for larger occupants. Conversely, a softer bag is more effective i.e. causes less occupant G loads for lower speed crashes. For lower speed, only the primary stage of the inflator deploys which will be quieter than both stages at the same time.

All this pedantry to say that something will be like 150db instead of 170db, like that's gonna make a meaningful difference.

 

[Foncky]

Quite spot on Sen... About earplugs : they won't protect much from an airbag.

Very good foam earplugs are like - 30dB in the high frequencies IF you fit them perfectly. 170dB - 30dB is still a lot to handle.

 

[stophiss]

All this pedantry to say that something will be like 150db instead of 170db, like that's gonna make a meaningful difference.

That's why people that know what they are talking about don't generally waste their time talking to people like you. So consider discourse over your head and targeted for people interested in understanding some of the trade-offs and the implications with turning airbags off.

Some appreciate nuance and others are too clueless to understand. Actual dB disparity isn't known. Its vehicle specific and also addresses Bobby's concern about low speed crash deployments potentially hurting occupants.
As it turns out the dB scale is logarithmic. You won't know what that means either. But for those that do, 170 dB is a lot louder than 150 dB and so you are wrong there as well...and the differential in sound level may even be greater depending on vehicle configuration.
http://www.noisehelp.com/decibel-scale.html

 

[stophiss]

Ok ! It's like a two-stages rocket ?

About seatbelts pretensioners. Some cars (old ones probably) don't use explosives, but something like a coil.

Is it efficient as well ?

Actually the propellant used in an airbag inflator was derived from the space industry and is rocket science which is also my training. There are many propellant types. Sodium Azide was an early propellant used:

Automobile airbags and airplane escape chutes
Older airbag formulations contained mixtures of oxidizers and sodium azide and other agents including ignitors and accelerants. An electronic controller detonates this mixture during an automobile crash:

2 NaN3 → 2Na + 3 N2
The same reaction occurs upon heating the salt to approximately 300 °C. The sodium that is formed is a potential hazard alone and, in automobile airbags, it is converted by reaction with other ingredients, such as potassium nitrate and silica. In the latter case, innocuous sodium silicates are generated.[9] Sodium azide is also used in airplane escape chutes. Newer generation air bags contain nitroguanidine or similar less sensitive explosives.


I explained why so called explosive pre-tensioning seat belts came into being in a previous post.

 

[GregCA]

All this pedantry to say that something will be like 150db instead of 170db, like that's gonna make a meaningful difference.

Actually 20 dB is a massive difference.
You're claiming that hearing a jet engine (or anything for that matter) from a distance of 10 feet is the same as hearing it from a distance of 100 feet.
20 dB is a 10x distance variation.
See for yourself.

I could certainly use a 20 dB decrease in my T.

 

[Richard zurowski]

Airbags on most cars can be deactivated in the front passenger seat by a simple switch which the manufacturer has installed specialy for the purpose of children sitting in the front.

 

[Sen]

Actually 20 dB is a massive difference.

Of course the physical difference is large. What I meant, which can be easily deduced from the context, is that both are likely to cause hearing damage.

 

[stophiss]

Of course the physical difference is large. What I meant, which can be easily deduced from the context, is that both are likely to cause hearing damage.

Absurd. Your blanket statements are ridiculous and you should really refrain from commenting to not put out a false narrative about airbags. Both are NOT likely to cause hearing damage as there would be much greater outcry throughout the world based upon airbag deployments where there are one hundred thousand + deployments every year.

 

[GregCA]

Of course the physical difference is large. What I meant, which can be easily deduced from the context, is that both are likely to cause hearing damage.

Well, yes, and a dropping a 100g rock and 1 kg rock on top of my hand from 1 foot high are also both going to cause hand damage. That doesn't mean the severity of the damage isn't important. My hand will probably recover from the former, but I'll likely be handicapped for life with the latter.

 

[Sen]

as there would be much greater outcry throughout the world based upon airbag deployments where there are one hundred thousand + deployments every year.

How many of those deployments were followed up by a complete hearing health care evaluation of those involved? Hearing damage can, and often does, occur without the victim being aware of it.

Millions of people go to clubs and attend concerts every year with noise levels and exposure duration far exceeding osha safety standards, there is no large public outcry about that either.

 

[Foncky]

Absurd. Your blanket statements are ridiculous and you should really refrain from commenting to not put out a false narrative about airbags. Both are NOT likely to cause hearing damage as there would be much greater outcry throughout the world based upon airbag deployments where there are one hundred thousand + deployments every year.

Are you saying that a 170dB explosion next to the head in an enclosed space is not likely to cause hearing damage ? You're an expert in airbags, that's fine, but not in audiology it seems. You don't like "ridiculous blanket statements", don't write some then.

 

[stophiss]

How many of those deployments were followed up by a complete hearing health care evaluation of those involved? Hearing damage can, and often does, occur without the victim being aware of it.

Millions of people go to clubs and attend concerts every year with noise levels and exposure duration far exceeding osha safety standards, there is no large public outcry about that either.

Are you saying that a 170dB explosion next to the head in an enclosed space is not likely to cause hearing damage ? You're an expert in airbags, that's fine, but not in audiology it seems. You don't like "ridiculous blanket statements", don't write some then.

Well then tell me, what are you going to do? Also where is your data across car and SUV models for airbag deployment dB? Sensitivity to loud sound is probably as much as a bell shaped statistical distribution as propensity to contract tinnitus. Where is your data for that? Do you think everybody has the same threshold for sound level? I love the wild extrapolations here. Maybe we should vote...lol. Who is going to disconnect their airbags? I mean all cars have 170db at deployment right?...and all airbag deployments cause hearing loss because you heard it here first even though there is no data to support it.

 

[Foncky]

Both are NOT likely to cause hearing damage as there would be much greater outcry throughout the world based upon airbag deployments where there are one hundred thousand + deployments every year.

And you talk about "wild extrapolations" ? Please... I appreciate the effort you've put into explaining airbags technology, but stay in your field of expertise. Use consistency. Don't make claims like that because you have nothing to support it.

I'm not saying all airbags are 170dB, I don't know that. I'm asking you to confirm your "ridiculous blanket statement" but you didn't. Just because there are not enough studies on the matter or no outcry doesn't mean the danger isn't real.

By the way, I didn't have to read something here to think about airbags noise. Just read again my stupid personal story.

 

[stophiss]

And you talk about "wild extrapolations" ? Please... I appreciate the effort you've put into explaining airbags technology, but stay in your field of expertise. Use consistency. Don't make claims like that because you have nothing to support it.

I'm not saying all airbags are 170dB, I don't know that. I'm asking you to confirm your "ridiculous blanket statement" but you didn't. Just because there are not enough studies on the matter or no outcry doesn't mean the danger isn't real.

By the way, I didn't have to read something here to think about airbags noise. Just read again my stupid personal story.

remind us again, what is your field of expertise? Also, for the record, based upon what you know, or believe you know, give us your judgement about whether a. you believe airbags should be used in the industry and b. present data on whether airbags cause hearing loss.

 

[Foncky]

12 years of mild tinnitus and hyperacusis, then a severe worsening of my symptoms because of a popped balloon next to my head in an enclosed space (a car). That's my field of expertise as far as this discussion is concerned.

You're saying that 170dB is not likely to cause hearing damage, I'm saying it is. I support my claim with my personal story (I'm on TT to share my experience when I can, not to spread an universal truth and I try to make it clear), you support your statement with nothing.

I think you forgot the point of this thread (of this forum ?).

And I don't have judgements about airbags. I'm pleased they save thousands of lives every year, it's just not what this thread is about.

 

[stophiss]

12 years of mild tinnitus and hyperacusis, then a severe worsening of my symptoms because of a popped balloon next to my head in an enclosed space (a car). That's my field of expertise as far as this discussion is concerned.

You're saying that 170dB is not likely to cause hearing damage, I'm saying it is. I support my claim with my personal story (I'm on TT to share my experience when I can, not to spread an universal truth and I try to make it clear), you support your statement with nothing.

I think you forgot the point of this thread (of this forum ?).

And I don't have judgements about airbags. I'm pleased they save thousands of lives every year, it's just not what this thread is about.

Problem is...you are basing your judgement on the efficacy of airbag usage based upon your precondition of hyperacusis. Your hearing apparatus prior to the balloon popping wasn't normal. Your hearing was more sensitive to loud noises causing more damage than someone with normal hearing. So...you are acutely sensitive to noise. There are those with tinnitus here that have very limited hyperacusis and therefore may have a higher tolerance to noise. Further the vast population with more normal hearing has an even higher sound tolerance.

So, knowing that airbags create a sound level above 120 dB, you have to make a choice whether the risk of an airbag relative to your personal hearing condition is greater than the risk to your life without airbags out on roadways. A personal decision. Btw, these kind of decisions are made everyday, in fact, perhaps driving or riding in an automobile may not be for you. Some with limited vision can't drive automobiles for example. Guys like you shouldn't hang out at clubs either. Just don't paint airbag usage with a broad brush. You are a special case. For example I have tinnitus however without extreme hyperacusis and I don't think for a second whether I want airbags in my automobiles and I have been in countless airbag deployment laboratories witnessing cars and replicate sleds run into barriers and I know how loud airbags are.

So its a personal choice, like everything else. But to indict airbags for the general population is silly. For you it isn't because you have a hearing deficit.

 

[Bobby B]

That's why they made it perfectly legal to have an authorized auto shop desactivate those airbags provided you have a underlying medical condition that may require it - where airbags explosion could be a major issue.
Of course no one is suggesting doing this if you have perfect ears but a few People who got major T / hearing loss issues with zero underlying ear issues still they whish they did - food for thought...

Or buy a vehicle that never had airbags like the Mazda Miata of the early 1990's, Ford F-150 or similar prior generation vehicle

Or a nice classic car with no belts no bags no power brakes and a single brake master cylinder..

The bottom line is all these cars are still far safer than riding motorcycles and no one is saying that riding motorcycles is dangerous in this thread ..

 

[stophiss]

That's why they made it perfectly legal to have an authorized auto shop desactivate those airbags provided you have a underlying medical condition that may require it - where airbags explosion could be a major issue.
Of course no one is suggesting doing this if you have perfect ears but a few People who got major T / hearing loss issues with zero underlying ear issues still they whish they did - food for thought...

Or buy a vehicle that never had airbags like the Mazda Miata of the early 1990's, Ford F-150 or similar prior generation vehicle

Or a nice classic car with no belts no bags no power brakes and a single brake master cylinder..

The bottom line is all these cars are still far safer than riding motorcycles and no one is saying that riding motorcycles is dangerous in this thread ..

I've said riding motorcycles is very dangerous. I am a motorcycle guy who stopped riding motorcycles on the road. I built and even raced motorcycles at the track. Riding at the track, even though much higher speed is statistically 100 x's safer than riding a motorcycle on the road. Forgive me for telling you a couple of things you should know...or maybe interested in knowing. The Mazda Miata without airbags is a death trap. An old F150 is safer in many crash scenarios compared to a new Miata even with airbags because of the size and mass differential. Size rules on the street. I have owned many high performance cars...you name it and many if not most older cars pre airbag are unsafe compared to newer cars. So the old cars you own and drive and mention without airbags have awful protection. If you are going to advise people with a hearing condition that can't tolerate airbag deployment due to dB level...ALWAYS buy a modern car...bigger is better compared to ANY car that predated airbags. NO comparison in terms of crash protection even if you deactivate their airbags. Night and day safer in a newer vehicles with disabled airbags. Without going into too much detail here....the entire structure of modern cars is designed for crash worthiness. HIC for example when an occupant collides with an instrument panel is dramatically lower compared to older cars. So is steering wheel intrusion....side door protection, roll over protection and head on protection is night and day better. So please don't tell the public that older cars prior to airbags for those that don't want an airbag is the way to go. That is absolutely false. You do perform a public service by telling those with a medical condition relative to their ears...those with poor noise tolerance...that they can deactivate their airbags. But a modern car with no airbags is dramatically safer than any pre-airbag car if you are comparing the same GVW...gross vehicle weight. No comparison.

Lastly...and those without science training don't tend to look through this lens. Life is a gamble. No, young people...many don't know the risk of steady clubbing...the impact to their ears...or earphone listening at elevated levels. Further young people all believe they are infallible because they feel perfect and believe they will forever. A few young people understand that loud noise is bad for their ears and protect them...or they are lucky that they aren't into clubbing or listening to loud music. But in the case of an airbag, a good idea to think of things in the context of probabilities. Ask yourself how long you have been driving and never had an airbag deployment. Maybe you have...but a good chance you haven't. You may drive for the next twenty years and not have a deployment and you and your family will be riding in the cocoon of protection airbags provide. So life is largely a gamble...a game of probabilities. Many here drew the short straw for example with our hearing. But we have our life and most of us want to protect that at all costs and take some level of risk to our hearing like we do everyday with sound going off around us however on a grander scale, opting for a level of protection to our lives.

But its great to have a choice all said. To be able to deactivate airbags if you want...or even ride a motorcycle which I love but don't want to put myself in harm's way. There are countless bad drivers on the road. Some are young btw and haven't learned to drive properly. Btw, I was such a driver and shouldn't even be here with the way I drove including on motorcycles. I can't really go into detail what I did or how my friends drove on the street. We grew up building race cars essentially and driving recklessly... 9 lives....one roll over crash in a sports car when I was young. I have a racer's heart and always have. I drive much more conservatively now but many don't because they haven't learned. Some sadly don't make it to old age because they didn't have a chance to learn and either took themselves out and others. Countless stories of this including some of my friends. So protection on the roads is a good thing. 30% of the driving population is comprised of inexperienced young people who drive needlessly aggressively or drunk, or old people that can't see with health issues to every flavor of road warrior in between which puts each of us in harm's way every time we head out in our cars as we live our lives.
Drive safe everybody and good luck to you Bobby and everybody here.