DIY Low-Level Laser Therapy for Tinnitus on a Budget — LLLT Under 100,-

[SilverSpiral]

No I will use the wide beam so no need to move the lamp around I guess.

5min/ear twice a week (monday morning and thursday evening), and then I'll add time each week to reach 15mn/ear per session.

If it's getting too hot I'll stop before.

Bobby and I both use the narrow beam I think, when I asked him he said he had it focused. I think it is very wide for your ear canal anyways, and if you are holding it up to your ear. Focused beam should have more power per square inch? With the 1.5v battery it sounds like this thing is actually kind of "weak"? so maybe focused beam is best?

 

[Tom Cnyc]

@Tom Cnyc Is there an actual IR laser that is specifically meant for the ears? I'm going to say no since I haven't seen one and that might mean just taking a guess and picking one off amazon. I can try and ask the clinic -Lumomed in Florida- but I doubt they would recommend another type of laser being more beneficial especially if they don't sell it, so even though they have been great, I think the answer might be biased.

Yeah they wont tell you anything. I spoke to him also. Did you go for in office therapy?

 

[Bobby B]

The companies making those lasers don't know much about t hence this thread

We have already enough info here

its even written in the Lukcy laser Manual - that they are not able to give out advice on usage for the human body , these guys are no doctors !

 

[SilverSpiral]

@Bobby B, @Blue28 and @Foncky both mentioned they are using the torch with the unfocused beam. Can we brainstorm together whether or not it's better to focus the lens or not? Focused beam is with the lens pulled out from the body, spread beam is with the lens pushed into the body of the torch right? I'm thinking narrower beam may be better? Still plenty wide if we are putting it against our ear, and slightly more concentrated power?

Also do you guys think it's better to hold it away from the ear a bit? Or do you just push it against your ear canal?

 

[lymebite]

Red Light Man just upgraded the wattage of their small infrared LLLT device. It is now doubled to 18 watts. That is getting to be a pretty powerful LED device for a $100 budget!

This device is their narrow beam model for deep penetration. It includes both 760 nm and 830 nm wavelengths.

The $100 price is the same as before the power was doubled. I went ahead and ordered one today.

https://redlightman.com/product/infrared-light-device-mini/

 

[Tom Cnyc]

Red Light Man just upgraded the wattage of their small infrared LLLT device. It is now doubled to 18 watts. That is getting to be a pretty powerful LED device for a $100 budget!

This device is their narrow beam model for deep penetration. It includes both 760 nm and 830 nm wavelengths.

The $100 price is the same as before the power was doubled. I went ahead and ordered one today.

https://redlightman.com/product/infrared-light-device-mini/

I am buying one. Emailed last week. Waiting for stock. Why not? I'm getting the combo and using on my sore muscles also.

 

[lymebite]

Why not? I'm getting the combo and using on my sore muscles also.

That was my reasoning too. The people in this thread are on the cutting edge and testing these devices for tinnitus. After enough of us have tried them for long enough, we will have a better sense for whether or not they can be effective.

But even if no good for tinnitus, it seems there are many other uses where there is already a good track record of success. Like sore muscles.

The other thing about tinnitus is that the clinics like Anne Harila use LLLT against the skull behind the ear as well as directly into the ear canal. I think the reasoning is that the light can penetrate the skull somewhat and reach the cochlea a bit that way too. Or maybe the brain, who knows. But at any rate, the Red Light Man device makes it easy to do a few minutes each in different positions around the ear in addition to directly on the ear.

Plus for people with TMJ pain, the Red Light Man device is a good size for that. In the Michael Zazzio study on LLLT for Hyperacusis, in addition to treating the ear, for people with TMJ symptoms he treats the jaw with a bigger device.

I received my 850 nm torch and it is nice but I am using the AA battery. One of the Amazon reviews says that even a fresh AA battery results in only about 0.5 watts of power (not the potential 5 watts of the chipset), and after say an hour of use the battery is no longer going to be fresh. So the power seems like it is a lot less than the 18 watt Red Light Man.

 

[Bobby B]

18 watts is good
Yes led are cheap and definitely the way to go
Let us know how this works and how much heat you feel

 

[SilverSpiral]

That was my reasoning too. The people in this thread are on the cutting edge and testing these devices for tinnitus. After enough of us have tried them for long enough, we will have a better sense for whether or not they can be effective.

But even if no good for tinnitus, it seems there are many other uses where there is already a good track record of success. Like sore muscles.

The other thing about tinnitus is that the clinics like Anne Harila use LLLT against the skull behind the ear as well as directly into the ear canal. I think the reasoning is that the light can penetrate the skull somewhat and reach the cochlea a bit that way too. Or maybe the brain, who knows. But at any rate, the Red Light Man device makes it easy to do a few minutes each in different positions around the ear in addition to directly on the ear.

Plus for people with TMJ pain, the Red Light Man device is a good size for that. In the Michael Zazzio study on LLLT for Hyperacusis, in addition to treating the ear, for people with TMJ symptoms he treats the jaw with a bigger device.

I received my 850 nm torch and it is nice but I am using the AA battery. One of the Amazon reviews says that even a fresh AA battery results in only about 0.5 watts of power (not the potential 5 watts of the chipset), and after say an hour of use the battery is no longer going to be fresh. So the power seems like it is a lot less than the 18 watt Red Light Man.

Wow, I'm surprised to read on that site that they say the Red Light Man is not dangerous to the eyes, when it's wattage is much higher than the torch, and I read several hunting/security forum posts warning about the dangers of IR devices to the eyes. Some users recorded their sleep with IR camera, and woke up blind?

Is there something that makes the IR from the Red Light Man different than the IR from the torch?

How often would you guys use a device like this? Is it possible to overdo it? Like what if you did an hour a day or something like that, while you were on the computer, alternating, ear, jaw, behind ear, etc.

 

[SilverSpiral]

"95% the light coming from this device is infrared, meaning it is beyond human eye perception. Only cameras without infrared filters can detect this light, and it poses no risk to our eyes. The typical human eye responds to wavelengths 400nm to 700nm."

I have seriously read at length about how IR can damage the eyes, and is in fact often more capable of damaging the eyes than a laser, in that the eye doesn't detect it, so doesn't squint/feel pain from it, but that it can seriously damage the rods and cones. Like I say I'm not sure about the technical specifics of this device, but this statement in general makes me a bit cautious about this manufacturer. The whole "it's invisible to the naked eye so it can't harm it" is very much contrary to what I read about IR.

I definitely read very specific posts of hunters/security camera people who reported having their sight both acutely, and long term damaged by IR.

 

[lymebite]

I'm surprised to read on that site that they say the Red Light Man is not dangerous to the eyes

I am going to be overly cautious and use eye protection even so. It is easy enough, why not. But LEDs are vastly safer than lasers for the eyes, so much better off regardless.

How often would you guys use a device like this? Is it possible to overdo it? Like what if you did an hour a day or something like that, while you were on the computer, alternating, ear, jaw, behind ear, etc.

You can definitely overdo it, that is the tricky thing about LLLT, you need enough but not too much. But we are all guessing what is the just right amount.

My plan is to follow the general protocol @Bobby B has mentioned, something along the lines of 5 or so minutes per ear 2 or 3 times a week. And additional 5 minute applications for other areas (like behind the ear, the jaw, etc.). This protocol is also roughly similar to what Red Light Man suggests for tinnitus. Red Light Man has suggested doses for other conditions too.

 

[SilverSpiral]

I am going to be overly cautious and use eye protection even so. It is easy enough, why not. But LEDs are vastly safer than lasers for the eyes, so much better off regardless.



You can definitely overdo it, that is the tricky thing about LLLT, you need enough but not too much. But we are all guessing what is the just right amount. My plan is to follow the protocol @Bobby B has mentioned, along the lines of 5 or so minutes per ear 2 or 3 times a week. And additional 5 minute applications for other areas (like behind the ear, the jaw, etc.). This protocol is also roughly similar to what Red Light Man suggests for tinnitus.

What happens if you overdo it? Are there any cases of this? It would be very difficult for someone to know if they are overdoing it, because spikes are supposedly a symptom of it working... so spiking itself wouldn't be indicative of overdoing it. I haven't noticed a thing with the torch either way. Are we to assume that overdoing it results in damage/worsening? Difficult territory to navigate if so.

 

[lymebite]

What happens if you overdo it?

Here is what Dr. Hamblin says:

"It's not a narrow range, actually. It's quite a wide range. Obviously, there's a power density that we call milliwatts per square centimeter. There is a level where nothing will happen. You can sit in this light 24 hours a day, and it will have no effect. That's very low levels of light. Then you raise the dose and you get biological effects. If you keep raising it, these effects will diminish. It's possible that if you give a huge amount of light, you could actually damage the tissue."

http://mercola.fileburst.com/PDF/Ex...terview-MichaelHamblin-Photobiomodulation.pdf

Red Light Man says:

"Most review articles and educational material tends to claim a dose in the range of 0.1J/cm² to 6J/cm² is optimal for cells, with less doing nothing and much more cancelling out the benefits."

So staying in that range may be a good approach.

https://redlightman.com/blog/complete-guide-light-therapy-dosing/

 

[Aaron123]

What happens if you overdo it? Are there any cases of this?

I haven't read the paper so I can't vouch for the quality, but here is one study (on rats) that claims a worsening of hearing with too high a dose: http://proceedings.spiedigitallibrary.org/proceeding.aspx?articleid=2175005

 

[SilverSpiral]

@lymebite I searched tinnitus on redmanlight site and nothing comes up. Do they have a protocol mentioned at all for tinnitus? 18W is a lot more than ~1W we get with the torch, so I'm not sure the same protocol can be used with both? I don't understand the science so maybe it can?

We don't even know how much light is actually making it to the inner/middle ear, so how can we calculate the length of time to use it. Certainly is much more difficult to estimate than using it for a skin/muscle issue.

I'm still really puzzled by their claim that the IR leds do not damage eyes and are actually GOOD for it. A simple google search comes up with lots of people warning about eye safety with 1W single 850nm LEDs used in arduino projects or whatever.

 

[lymebite]

I searched tinnitus on redmanlight site and nothing comes up. Do they have a protocol mentioned at all for tinnitus?

There is one Q&A on tinnitus in Red Light Man's Blog section (go to that page and then search on tinnitus, it is almost at the bottom of the page):

https://redlightman.com/blog/complete-guide-light-therapy-dosing/

"Q: Do you have a suggested dose for tinnitus?

A: I think a higher dose of near-infrared (more penetrative than red) will be useful, as you are trying to target the cells deeper in the ear and nearby in the head. I would suggest at least 60 J/cm2 pointing directly on the ear but higher doses may be better."

We don't even know how much light is actually making it to the inner/middle ear, so how can we calculate the length of time to use it. Certainly is much more difficult to estimate than using it for a skin/muscle issue.

Exactly. That is what makes this so hard. There has been so little research done. We have the paper @Aaron123 posted and we have the dosages that clinicians use (as reported on TTalk about places like Anne Harila, Michael Zazzio, etc.). But that is about all we have and it is not much. Would be great if someone like Dr. Hamblin would research tinnitus but I have not seen that he has looked at that.

 

[SilverSpiral]

There is one Q&A on tinnitus in Red Light Man's Blog section (go to that page and then search on tinnitus, it is almost at the bottom of the page):

https://redlightman.com/blog/complete-guide-light-therapy-dosing/

"Q: Do you have a suggested dose for tinnitus?

A: I think a higher dose of near-infrared (more penetrative than red) will be useful, as you are trying to target the cells deeper in the ear and nearby in the head. I would suggest at least 60 J/cm2 pointing directly on the ear but higher doses may be better."



Exactly. That is what makes this so hard. There has been so little research done. We have the paper @Aaron123 posted and we have the dosages that clinicians use (as reported on TTalk about places like Anne Harila, Michael Zazzio, etc.). But that is about all we have and it is not much. Would be great if someone like Dr. Hamblin would research tinnitus but I have not seen that he has looked at that.

So when he says 60J/cm2 what does that mean in terms of time?

 

[lymebite]

So when he says 60J/cm2 what does that mean in terms of time?

The time depends on the power of the device. A really low powered device could take hours and a really high powered one could take seconds.

Here is what he says:

"Light therapy dose is calculated with this formula:

Power Density x Time = Dose

Fortunately, most recent studies use standardised units to describe their protocol:

• Power Density in mW/cm² (milliwatts per centimeter squared)
• Time in s (seconds)
  
• Dose in J/cm² (Joules per centimeter squared)"

If you read his whole page on calculating dose you will get the idea. It is not that long, only read the part before the Q&A.

https://redlightman.com/blog/complete-guide-light-therapy-dosing/

Other websites have similar explanations but I find Red Light Man's a little shorter and clearer than others.

 

[Cal18]

Yeah they wont tell you anything. I spoke to him also. Did you go for in office therapy?

No, too far and I didn't want to fly. I thought about it though.

 

[Cal18]

@Cal18

I hope the Lucy helps.

Would be interesting if you could share their recommended protocol once you find out.

Thanks Lyme. Will do, in the meantime, let me know if you've seen any posts for the protocol for Dr Wilden's laser - I think they're supposed to be similar (can't seem to find one anywhere).

 

[lymebite]

@Cal18

I believe that @Mithrandir did LLLT with Dr. Wilden's laser, perhaps he can share the guidance on how many minutes per day and days per week...

 

[Cal18]

Thanks for the info!

 

[Blue28]

@Bobby B, @Blue28 and @Foncky both mentioned they are using the torch with the unfocused beam. Can we brainstorm together whether or not it's better to focus the lens or not? Focused beam is with the lens pulled out from the body, spread beam is with the lens pushed into the body of the torch right? I'm thinking narrower beam may be better? Still plenty wide if we are putting it against our ear, and slightly more concentrated power?

Also do you guys think it's better to hold it away from the ear a bit? Or do you just push it against your ear canal?

I have done one 5 min session (27/02) so far using the torch, wide beam with a standard AA battery. It wasn't hot at all, I felt a slight warmth only. I held the torch so it was barely touching my ear. I had a spike yesterday with a headache, I'm not sure if this was related to the LLLT or not. I plan to do another 5 mins today but will put torch on my ear. I'm not sure if I should use the narrow beam this time. I'm sure I must have chronic inflammation in both ears as I have terrible fullness constantly. I have H aswell as T, and TTTS (which I have read is related to inflammation of the middle ear).

I'd welcome any feedback on this. I've read the posts about calculating dosage but I'm not that technical so don't know how to calculate this accurately.

@Foncky @Bobby B how are you getting on?

 

[summ]

I'm not sure if I should use the narrow beam this time.

Which one is it when LEDs look normal, not magnified? Is this narrow or wide beam?

 

[Bobby B]

@lymebite
I looked again at the red light man site , but cannot stop wondering how you would actually use these huge lamps on you ear.

And also, even if its 18w of drawing power, you will end up with far less than that, concentrated at the cochlea spots due to the wide spacing of the LEDs. maybe its better suited for large body and skin areas.

 

[Blue28]

Which one is it when LEDs look normal, not magnified? Is this narrow or wide beam?

I'm not sure about magnification, narrow beam is when the LEDs project about a 2cm wide beam and wide beam covers more like 5-6cm. As far as my torch goes anyway.

 

[summ]

I'm not sure about magnification, narrow beam is when the LEDs project about a 2cm wide beam and wide beam covers more like 5-6cm. As far as my torch goes anyway.

I thought we have a same torch and you talked about wide and narrow beam. Is this what you were talking about?
Picture for more clarity.
If so, which mode is which?

 

[Blue28]

I thought we have a same torch and you talked about wide and narrow beam. Is this what you were talking about?
Picture for more clarity.
If so, which mode is which?

I've just looked and it seems like we have the same torch. When the LEDs look magnified (end of torch is pulled out) this is the narrow beam. When the end of the torch is pushed in and the LEDs look normal this is the wide beam.

 

[lymebite]

I looked again at the red light man site , but cannot stop wondering how you would actually use these huge lamps on you ear.

The beam on the small Red Man Light device is about 10 cm. So maybe similar to what Dr. Wilden does in his clinic? - he bathes the ear in light (see the attached photo from Dr. Wilden's website). The Lumomed photos show a similar approach - a wide beam covering a lot of the ear area (one of their photos attached too).

https://redlightman.com/product/infrared-light-device-mini/

And also, even if its 18w of drawing power, you will end up with far less than that.

18 watts is the input, but they also give the specifications for the output. At 10 cm distance, the output power it is 200 mW / cm2. They do not give the specs for 0 cm distance, but based on some of their other charts I would guess it is around 500 mW / cm2.

@summ reports that the torch beam is 5-6 cm in diameter on the wide setting and 2 cm on the narrow setting. But we do not know how much power the torch is outputting until someone can test it with a solar power meter. My guess is that it is much less than 500 mW / cm2, especially on an AA battery. Would be great if someone can test it, then we can know how much dosage it is producing.

 

[Tom Cnyc]

I'd not be so concerned with the 18w power being too high.

Lumomed's clinic laser is 25W and they do 30 minutes per ear, per day, for 2 weeks as a recommendation.

To Bobby's point, 18w will likely be more like 10.. ten mins a day 2x a week will be fine.

As to focusing? They'll be just like the wide beam on the torch, just more of them (we're talking about the mini - not the big one) and will go over your ear.

As to your eyes - just don't be a moron and you'll be fine. glasses are cheap, and probably unneccesary. Don't use it in a fun house mirror room, and don't point it at your face.