DIY Low-Level Laser Therapy for Tinnitus on a Budget — LLLT Under 100,-

[lymebite]

Would the best results come from treatments everyday or every other day. Intuitively it seems that every 3-4 days would be unnecessarily long.

Not sure anyone really knows the answer, there is not much research yet on LLLT for inner ear therapy. Most of the limited information available is based on what the clinicians are doing. Some of them use the twice a week protocol, for example this study from Spain.

 

[SilverSpiral]

@stargazer you able to take any readings with normal AA batteries?

 

[lymebite]

@Bobby B what was the rationale for 2 treatments a week?

@Philip83 visited Michael Zazzio's clinic in Sweden and posted about his treatment protocol of twice a week. I am not sure there is a scientific rationale that has been documented, rather I think this is what Zazzio feels is most effective based on his clinical experience.

Zazzio's treatment plan
His treatment plan for his patients are as follows (this is also the one my uncle got):

808nm at 300mW - 6 to 8min (both ears at the same time, with prob inside)
650nm at 500mW - 10min (both ears at the same time, with prob inside)

This is repeated only two times per week, for 10 weeks.

https://www.tinnitustalk.com/threads/low-level-laser-therapy-lllt-for-tinnitus-—-experiences-dr-wilden-etc.295/page-32#post-127062


Also, @bill 112 was in touch with Zazzio earlier this year about his recommended treatment protocol.

I have a treatment plan sent to me by Zazzio,if you want I can forward it to you via PM.

Also,from what I've read any side effects from LLLT were minor and dissappeared shortly after treatment.I don't know of any long term side effects.

https://www.tinnitustalk.com/threads/low-level-laser-therapy-lllt-for-tinnitus-—-experiences-dr-wilden-etc.295/page-57#post-224894

 

[SilverSpiral]

How did we get from high power and cheap to underpowered. I'm kind of lost here.

Can someone shed some light ?

I think @Bobby B initially assumed that the rating of these led torches was the same, or similar to the actual light output. We then learned that on a regular AA, the things only draw ~1W, and the energy output for LLLT purposes is a fraction of that again. Several of us bought such devices when he was saying they had plenty of power, and safer than laser for a fraction of the price, but are now in the dark about using them, as he has now abandoned such methods himself and gone back to what he previously believed to be inferior laser devices.

 

[Bobby B]

I had the opportunity to use a large LT medical device which outputs 10w of optical power and I bought another , used one with 1.8w - cost me 2000 dollars ...that was before even buying the lucky laser , another 2100 dollars down the hole

I know how it feels to lighten up the ears with that kind of power . This ilauke lamp would have been a great option for a ridiculous price but unfortunately it's not in the same league of power

I am ordering the 20w raw LED off eBay, this is still very cheap and will see if to compares to the larger devices

 

[Bobby B]

And lasers aren't inferior - they are the same as LED but less safe and more expensive .

If you worry about safety then the ilauke is fine as it's low in power and not able to burn except maybe the retina after prolonged exposure to the eyes

 

[SilverSpiral]

And lasers aren't inferior - they are the same as LED but less safe and more expensive .

If you worry about safety then the ilauke is fine as it's low in power and not able to burn except maybe the retina after prolonged exposure to the eyes

so you figure the ilauke with regular AA still has some possible efficacy for hearing lllt treatment?

 

[Blue28]

Ok, I'm not sure if it's the LED torch but since I began the LLLT with it, using an AA battery, I've had some crazy spikes with my tinnitus. Today I've also had a migraine. May be a coincidence but I'm not sure...I definitely think the LED light is reaching my ear but for now no positives to report. I'm going to continue the twice weekly protocol and see what happens.

 

[Blue28]

I think @Bobby B initially assumed that the rating of these led torches was the same, or similar to the actual light output. We then learned that on a regular AA, the things only draw ~1W, and the energy output for LLLT purposes is a fraction of that again. Several of us bought such devices when he was saying they had plenty of power, and safer than laser for a fraction of the price, but are now in the dark about using them, as he has now abandoned such methods himself and gone back to what he previously believed to be inferior laser devices.

Aren't a lot of the home laser units putting out a lot less power than the torch? Can anyone measure the output of the torch using an AA battery?

 

[SilverSpiral]

Aren't a lot of the home laser units putting out a lot less power than the torch? Can anyone measure the output of the torch using an AA battery?

with laser it's focused in a much smaller area than with led though. and a lot of the laser devices make sure it reaches the middle/inner ear.

 

[Blue28]

with laser it's focused in a much smaller area than with led though. and a lot of the laser devices make sure it reaches the middle/inner ear.

Ok, so would using the torch on the narrow beam not do a similar thing?

 

[SilverSpiral]

Ok, so would using the torch on the narrow beam not do a similar thing?

I'm not sure if they are comparable anymore, would be interested to know what others think. Not sure how LEDs compare to lasers exactly in terms of output for these purposes.

 

[Blue28]

I'm not sure if they are comparable anymore, would be interested to know what others think. Not sure how LEDs compare to lasers exactly in terms of output for these purposes.

I'm also interested to know other peoples opinions. I'm still going to use my torch

 

[lymebite]

Not sure how LEDs compare to lasers exactly in terms of output for these purposes.

Not everyone agrees, but more and more it seems people say that LED and laser are identical in terms of the biological effect assuming apples-to-apples specifications (same wavelength and same mW / cm2 power output).

One example is this web page, go about halfway down to the section called "Laser Light Versus LEDs".

http://heelspurs.com/led.html

"There has been a lot of interest and money in low level laser therapy (LLLT) for healing, but there is no reason to believe that the coherent light from a laser is any better than LEDs, sunlight, or halogen lights. (Unfortunately, authors of the last 10 years or so have twisted the historical meaning of LLLT to mean "low level LIGHT therapy" since lasers are fading away in importance in this area.) Laser light might be more efficient since it may get through the skin more easily, but it does not penetrate more deeply once the light is beneath the skin, and cells do not know the difference: all photons are the same and the benefits are based on the action of each individual photon, not on bulk properties such as all the photons having the same polarity or coherency. The word "laser" has a superior marketing appeal for companies because it sounds interesting and mysterious. It also costs a lot which means patients can't do it on their own."

 

[SilverSpiral]

Not everyone agrees, but more and more it seems people say that LED and laser are identical in terms of the biological effect assuming apples-to-apples specifications (same wavelength and same mW / cm2 power output).

One example is this web page, go about halfway down to the section called "Laser Light Versus LEDs".

http://heelspurs.com/led.html

"There has been a lot of interest and money in low level laser therapy (LLLT) for healing, but there is no reason to believe that the coherent light from a laser is any better than LEDs, sunlight, or halogen lights. (Unfortunately, authors of the last 10 years or so have twisted the historical meaning of LLLT to mean "low level LIGHT therapy" since lasers are fading away in importance in this area.) Laser light might be more efficient since it may get through the skin more easily, but it does not penetrate more deeply once the light is beneath the skin, and cells do not know the difference: all photons are the same and the benefits are based on the action of each individual photon, not on bulk properties such as all the photons having the same polarity or coherency. The word "laser" has a superior marketing appeal for companies because it sounds interesting and mysterious. It also costs a lot which means patients can't do it on their own."

but when it comes to mw/cm2 output, a laser would be a much smaller diameter output than the torch on it's smallest setting. we need someone to measure the output of the torch ultimately...

 

[Foncky]

we need someone to measure the output of the torch ultimately...

"We need someone to" : it's not going to happen like that ! I'm trying to find someone who is able to measure it. You can try too.

 

[SilverSpiral]

"We need someone to" : it's not going to happen like that ! I'm trying to find someone who is able to measure it. You can try too.

I don't have a device that measures the output of these things and can not afford one for a long time to come. @stargazer does have a device that detects their light output as far as I know, but he tested the torches with those special rechargeable high powered batteries in them. me and blue requested readings on the torches with standard AA, but no word back yet.

 

[Foncky]

All the people interested in this torch here could buy a solarmeter together and one of us does the test.

 

[Jim51042]

Just wanted to provide an update. I received my red light man mini ir-red light today. It is quite large 5 inches in diameter. I used it today for 5 mins. It supposedly has 200 mw/cm2 so even on my skin it only got slightly warm. It has 4 frequently of light that all shine at once so you cant toggle through them.

 

[Coleoptere]

Led versus laser. Simply explained. not too scientific of course:

 

[Jim51042]

I did my second treatment with the red man light. Since the device I have is a lot larger than the ear and since it has different light nm waves I rotated the device to bath the ear in both red and ir light.

 

[Jim51042]

I apologize if this has already been answered earlier but physically how does LLLT improve hearing thresholds and H but not T. Are the nerves being healed from this therapy. If so why does that not mean an improvement in T since damaged nerves play a role.

 

[lymebite]

I apologize if this has already been answered earlier but physically how does LLLT improve hearing thresholds and H but not T. Are the nerves being healed from this therapy. If so why does that not mean an improvement in T since damaged nerves play a role.

I think the idea that LLLT may help H and hearing thresholds more so than T is based primarily on observations of patient results by clinicians rather than clear scientific knowledge of what is happening inside the ear with nerves, etc.

 

[Bobby B]

My opinion is that past a certain short timeframe hair cells are harder to be repaired but damaged nerves may be easier to repair

At least by using LT on a regular basis you could protect your remaining healthy hair cells from further damage in the future

 

[Jim51042]

What is the timeframe for nerve cell repair? I think I remember hair cell repair window being only 1-2 weeks.

Are hair cells more likely to die during large blasts of noise or longer lower levels for a couple hours(say a bartender exposed to 80-85 dBa 2 nights a week for a year)? If so would that type of T person benefit the most from this therapy?

I remember reading that DPOAE is a measure of hair cell enactment. I think I remember that @bill 112 had a DPOAE response up to the 16KHz range. Maybe he would benefit the most from this therapy.

Has anyone with a high frequency DPOAE response + T done this therapy within a couple months of damage? Maybe we can get closer to understanding this mystery by hearing additional experiences.

 

[lymebite]

Article about the effectiveness of LED-LLLT. Not a new article, it is from 2011, but interesting.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3799034/

 

[Coleoptere]

830nm and 633nm LEDs. The next time I order those. Interesting is that Wilden's Spa device uses 632nm.

 

[Tom Cnyc]

I apologize if this has already been answered earlier but physically how does LLLT improve hearing thresholds and H but not T. Are the nerves being healed from this therapy. If so why does that not mean an improvement in T since damaged nerves play a role.

The reality is that LLLT has the the best chance of "working" for T in a period when you may recover naturally (early on), and H and hearing thresholds more commonly resolve on their own.

It's plausible that LLLT DOES work for a small percentage of the population, however the anecdotal reports of h and hearing loss improvement is more likely than not a correlation vs causation issue.

Think about it. If most cases resolve within a week, and you ran home and took every vitamin, did LT, HBOT, and whatever else - did any of that cure you if you're find on day 5? Even if the number goes up 10% in those cases - how large was the sample size? Whats the margin of error? How much is placebo? How much is followed up at 6 months.

it's a subjective condition.

 

[SilverSpiral]

@Foncky @Blue28 @WildMan @MrBonk @stargazer and all else with the IR flashlight especially those using regular AA batteries. Where are you guys at with using this device?

I was messaging with @Bobby B about the ilauke (I asked if I could reference our discussion on the forum before posting this). and he mentioned the optical power of this device with the AA is probably less than 500mw, and that it is too weak in his opinion, and figures we need 2-5W optical power with LED, which I guess we all thought we were gonna get with these torches since they are called "3W or 5W", but I guess we still don't have a reading with a solar thing for the AA battery, but it seems to be my understanding that the optical output with the AA battery is below 3W, and possibly even below 1W??

However some of you like @WildMan and @Blue28 have mentioned getting spikes after even using it for a short session with a regular AA battery. While others notice nothing at all even with longer sessions. It sounds like spikes are clearly outlined as indications of improvement or at least a common result of treatment in the LLLT clinic and other methods discussed on the forum. I'm not sure what to make of this... what do you guys think? If people are getting spikes it would seem to indicate that it is having some effect on them...but it doesn't really sound like it's strong enough of an LED. From what I understand LED needs to be more powerful than a laser LLLT device, especially since it is applied from the outer ear. Is it possible the spikes people have noticed are coincidental and this device has no effect?

 

[MrBonk]

So I bought this one https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01EX46D72/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s02?ie=UTF8&psc=1

And here are some comparison pictures. I'll be using this from now on.

Lens extended:

Exaggerated exposure to show:

Only has one LED vs the 3 in smaller Cree one I bought. But in my pictures, you can see it illuminates much more and wider. The magnification gets huge too