DIY Low-Level Laser Therapy for Tinnitus on a Budget — LLLT Under 100,-

[Starman9]

@Tom Cnyc

Pressed right against your ear equals a heck of a power density. Please be careful. Generally, LLLT requires just enough light to prompt a hormetic response. Too much could even do damage. But great that your T is now minimal

 

[Tom Cnyc]

@Tom Cnyc

Pressed right against your ear equals a heck of a power density. Please be careful. Generally, LLLT requires just enough light to prompt a hormetic response. Too much could even do damage. But great that your T is now minimal

honestly man, there are zero studies that indicate what you just said. All peer reviewed studies are for surface tissue or muscles just below the surface. Your cochlea needs inches deep penetration of this type of tissue AND bone penetration. 99%+ of the energy is lost by this point.

Power has increased from 5 mw to 25 watts in clinics. think about that - it's 5000x stronger. moving it from inches away to direct on your ear is from 200 to 1500 /cm, 7.5x.

Don't overthink how simple this treatment is. I'm actually mostly convinced that the broad light Bobby says won't work actually works BETTER because it has a large spread and treats the muscle inflammation in the surrounding tissue (TMJ issues) as well.

 

[Starman9]

I understand the need for sufficient power to get through the bone.

But having said that, the biphasic nature of LLLT IS established in studies. At what power the good effects of the light on ears start to lesson through too much power is anyone's guess, really. All we can do is pay attention to our own experience.

My words were based on my personal experience using the RedLightMan 830 device. Without going into details, it is very clear I overdid the dose some weeks ago and suffered quite a nasty setback after.

 

[Starman9]

From memory, the device Amon Kaiser uses delivers about 3w total. So in terms of power density that's a lot less than your light pressed against your ear.

But if you're achieving great results that's the bottom line for you. MY experience was otherwise when I put the light against my ear.

 

[Starman9]

I don't know of a 25w light being used on ears. But if there is one, what exactly is being refered to? (My RedLightMan light could be described as a 60w light because that is its consumption...)

 

[Bobby B]

From memory, the device Amon Kaiser uses delivers about 3w total. So in terms of power density that's a lot less than your light pressed against your ear.

But if you're achieving great results that's the bottom line for you. MY experience was otherwise when I put the light against my ear.

the clinics use lasers so you get 3w of optical power.
for LED you divide the power consumption by 10 to get the optical power ballpark and then some as the beam is much more spread out

I think LLLT is good for treating H and maybe getting some minor improvements in hearing loss..for T it hasn't really done as much as I would have expected, but who knows, perhaps other may be more lucky..always worth a try anyways

 

[Starman9]

Re. the divide by 10 rule: Don't know about this generally but my RLM device will be producing quite a bit more than 6w given its quoted power density at 0cm.

 

[Bobby B]

Re. the divide by 10 rule: Don't know about this generally but my RLM device will be producing quite a bit more than 6w given its quoted power density at 0cm.

yes but how focused is the beam ? power density is w/cm2 or /surface unit not just w

 

[Starman9]

The power density of my RLM light is 1500mw/cm2 at 0cm and will still be covering a fair few cm2 at 0cm. Hence its total optical power must be quite a bit more than 6w (6w being a tenth of its consumptìon).

 

[Jim51042]

I also have used the redman combo light and my T sound has mellowed alot after some months of use. I started around 2 months after really the irritating/distracting T sound started. I've been using it for 11.5 months now.

 

[Starman9]

I also have used the redman combo light and my T sound has mellowed alot after some months of use. I started around 2 months after really the irritating/distracting T sound started. I've been using it for 11.5 months now.

That's good to hear. So now I'm wondering: How far from ear do you put your light? How long is each treatment per ear? How often? Any idea what prompted your T initially?

 

[Jim51042]

Noise caused my T. I put it next to my ear for 5 mins every 2 - 4 days.

 

[ehrfried]

Hey =)

I'm not sure if anyone can remember me, I followed this thread until about page 11.
I was kind of depressed that time and decided not to follow this forum anymore and so I also stopped following up here. This was about in Nov, 2016. However, this is a long time ago and things have changed.

Another question: Do you know anything about Marlino?


I have some good news for you and this is even related to the topic

The good news is that I am now free of tinnitus.
I define free in terms of that, In most places, even silent places, I cannot tell if I hear a sound. If I close my ears using very thick hearing protection earmuffs, I cannot tell if this sounds that I hear are different from what is described as " normal".

I have had tinnitus for about nine years. The cause was a visit in a club that was extremely loud. In this night, I did not drink anything which, so I think was also bad in terms of ear health.

I just wanted to tell you that so in fact, there is hope and it is real and it is practical. Just believe, be consistent, patient and stay happy!

I will sum up here what I did and this is all my opinion, my belief, etc. and please don't start arguing as it doesn't really help anybody. It helped me and you can try but no arguing here please.

-Endurance Sports with fresh air such as bicycling to your workplace everyday
-wearing custom-made silicone earplugs whenever I felt it is necessary (in my case everytime it was louder than a normal conversation between two people at home)
-Vitamins: B Complex , Multivitamin Preparate, D, Omega3, A
-A very quiet place to sleep: I mean no sound at all. The quieter the better!
-Amon Kaiser Laser therapy (All in all i had 17 Sessions devided into two visits once a year). This is the relation to the topic here: I would always prefer a solid high power laser over self made stuff. I have made only good experiences from the former and almost only bad experiences from the latter.
-Healthy diet, almost no alcohol, no cigarettes
-I prayed and I believe that god helped me with my fucking T and in fact I consider myself a christian now.
-try not to make restrictions to your live. Instead, try to adapt your current solutions so that they fit your "silence needs". E.g.: Instead of stopping to drive with your car (which can in fact be loud), go to a Car-Hifi specialist and get the doors and roof stuffed with foam and alubutyl so that it is a lot more silent while driving. Another example: ask your employer if you could have a more silent workplace, etc.

-Continue enjoing your life. If you feel like you want to have some alcohol now or a cigar or whatever, juist enjoy it . It is just that the everyday life should be kept free of those noxes imho.

---------------------

About the Kaiser Laser thing: After both visits, it took between 4 and 5 months until I felt any change in the tinnitus. In fact, the first thing I noticed was always an improvement in hearing and nothing else.


Always feel free write me if you need advice!

 

[Bobby B]

@ehrfried

good stuff. Can you give us more info on a few things

- how much time between the acoustic trauma and the start of the LLLT sessions ?
-di you have measurable hearing loss and what improvements you got ?
-how old are you ?

 

[ehrfried]

Hi Bobby!

There was quite some time between the trauma and the treatment.
as almost everybody else, I was quite helpless at first and did not do anything very effective.

The first 8 months I did practically nothing (other than crying and talking to my therapist, while spending quite as much money as I later spent for Mr. Kaiser).

I just took some vitamin B, D, C as of a recommendation by the ENT i visited tat that time. This helped quite a bit and so I stopped searching for other solutions for the next years. I just tried to protect myself from loud noises as this felt right. This is all what I did until about 2012.

Then I started with the good vitamin "therapy" with all the things I mentioned in the post before.
And finally, in 2016, I found Kaiser and I became christian and I started praying. I believe that god is someone you can actually talk to.

Furthermore, In my opinion, Kaisers treatment is effective. It just takes time (and money of course).

To answer your question in particular: I started eight years later with the therapy
my age is 27 years, it started when I was 17 years old.

Yes I had about 15 decibel of hearing loss on almost every frequency. according to Kaiser's measurements, these are gone as well.

I think that it is a lot easier to treat hearing loss than to treat tinnitus. The laser therapy, in my opinion, seems very effective for both, however. It is just that you have to be more patient (and probably need more sessions) in the latter case.

 

[mattryp]

@ lymebite I'm curious how that Red Light Man mini is working out for you, because after searching through these forums, I think that's the path I'll take as well. Since it's half 760nm, and half 830nm, I'm curious if there's any bothersome visible light you see when using it? I've been light sensitive my entire life, and was planning on going 100% infrared, but have read that the near-infrared wavelength is beneficial as well, and may target different frequencies in need of healing. On their site, they say that '95% the light coming from this device is infrared, meaning it is beyond human eye perception' but just wanted to make sure that the 5% isn't too noticeable during treatment.

Oh, and have you noticed any changes in your symptoms indicating healing?

 

[lymebite]

Since it's half 760nm, and half 830nm, I'm curious if there's any bothersome visible light you see when using it?

@mattryp

I actually own two of the Red Light Man mini devices, both the pure 830 nm and the half 760 nm and half 830 nm. I find the red light from the 760 nm in the half and half to be VERY bright - definitely noticeable - and definitely bothersome if it accidentally hits an eye. I wear a blindfold when using it for the ears but even so have to be careful or can get a blast of really bright red light in an eye.

I do not find the same issue with the pure 830 nm, for me at least the visible light from the 830 nm is nearly undetectable, it is almost difficult to know if the device is turned on. I still wear a blindfold out of caution but do not get any bothersome visible light.

Someone on Tinnitus Talk once posted a photo in one of the LLLT threads in which they had put duct tape over swimming goggles and used that set-up as a blindfold. So that could be an idea for a way to shield the visible light if you go with the half and half.

As for symptoms, my tinnitus has been improving. Whether the light therapy can be credited, I think that is impossible to say for sure. But maybe.

 

[mattryp]

@lymebite Thanks for that, I'm so glad I asked, because that probably changes my decision. I really don't want to mess with my eyes, and cause further issues. Last thing I need right now. So I'll probably go with the Infrared Mini 830. Do you feel any warm sensations penetrating the ears when using these? I've read reports of that with laser treatments, and am wondering if LEDs have a similar effect. Sounds like a pleasant way of letting you know it's working.

Actually, maybe I'll go the blindfold route too. Getting that 760nm in there as well might be a good idea. Hmmm, decisions decisions...

I'm glad your T has been improving, that's awesome!

 

[lymebite]

Do you feel any warm sensations penetrating the ears when using these? I've read reports of that with laser treatments, and am wondering if LEDs have a similar effect.

@mattryp

I do feel a warm sensation where the LED light is shining, it feels like strong sunshine. It is a pleasant feeling. I do not feel this sensation deep in the ear, only on the surface. But it is still quite remarkable because the light bulbs themselves are cold to the touch, yet they create such a strong feeling of warmth. Just basic science I suppose, but I am not a scientist, so I find it quite amazing.

My hunch is the reports of people feeling warmth deep in the ears are due to the specific device that fits in the ear canal (e.g., Wilden / Lux Spa, Lumomed / Luci, or Konftec). The diodes that produce the laser light physically get warm, and they are pressed right into the ear canal so there is heat generated from them, plus there is light shining into the ear canal, probably creating some additional warmth.

I attempted to take a photograph of my combo 760 nm and 830 nm Red Light Man device to demonstrate the visible red light. I took the photo with my iPad. For some reason the camera does not show the red light as fully bright as it is in reality. But the photo may give you a sense of it. In real life the red is brighter. Angled away from my eyes, as shown in the photo, the red light gives me no trouble at all.

When I use the combo light for ears, as I mentioned I always use a blindfold, and I angle the device away from my eye. Doing this I do not see the red light. But if I do not angle it, and the blindfold is not tight, I can get a blast of red light that is bothersome.

 

[mattryp]

@lymebite Awesome, thanks for the pic, much appreciated. Yeaaa, ideally I'd want to go with the Konftec, but it's just too damn pricey for both wavelengths (and as you know, that's the lower price range of these devices!) It's very frustrating, how when something is classified as a 'medical device', an insane markup comes with it. I've also read posts by @Jan64 stating that the ear piece cable connections for the Konftec are quite fragile, and his 808nm eventually broke, so he switched to his 660nm. He also said that the ear pieces need to be cut, (which he did) because they're too long, causing delivery to the cochlea to not be as efficient as it could be. Dr. Wilden's Luci Basic has some solid looking ear pieces, but is actually lower power than the Konftec, doesn't use infrared, and is ridiculously expensive. The man has helped many people, but he's ripping you off with that home system. Same with the Lux Spa, I know the parts don't cost that much.

And so I'm looking into Red Light Man, even though I'd really prefer ear pieces for less hassle, not having to worry about protecting my eyes, and equal treatment for both ears. I got on the scent of LEDs being a viable alternative to lasers from @Bobby B posts. Thanks to all you guys, you're helping me make an informed decision about which path to take. This forum is a great resource for this stuff, and the rabbit hole goes deep...

 

[Lisa2018]

Update headgear prototype;

Since everyone needs it and I just can't take seeing people buy really expensive crap anymore I've started prototyping a device. I'm sorry it took longer than two days, I tried to do it during the week but eventually had to plan it for today.
I have picked all the parts and am just about to order. It will take two weeks for me to get my first set of parts, then two weeks to make the device, then two more weeks to assemble the others, then a two weeks to look up how shipping and payment works best internationally. That's six weeks to two months in total before I can start providing these.

The headset is just like any headphones but instead of speakers it has a two lasers that you can manually adjust to point into your ear canal, they set will be around three times as powerful as anything else on the market and hopefully cost 100,- dollars, depending on how long it takes me to assemble these as I have to cancel tutoring sessions to make time.



It has a volume button you can use to set it to whatever power you want. If users use the provided documentation and we build a dataset we can determine what works best, if at all.

Hi John, am new to this thread. Am currently in a treatment with Dr Wilden. Have to decide soon whether to purchase this extremely expensive device. What is the status of your developing of the laser device?

 

[Tom Cnyc]

Hi John, am new to this thread. Am currently in a treatment with Dr Wilden. Have to decide soon whether to purchase this extremely expensive device. What is the status of your developing of the laser device?

just buy the red light man. it's cheap, and seemingly effective. I use it too.

 

[Lisa2018]

just buy the red light man. it's cheap, and seemingly effective. I use it too.

Does it help you?

 

[Tom Cnyc]

Does it help you?

I can't say for sure, but I have gotten better. My experiment includes a sample set of 1 - determining correlation and causation is simply not possible.

personally, until someone explains to me specifically why his light costs thousands and what the difference is, and shows test results proving efficacy, I'd NEVER buy wilden's light.

100 dollars was a fine risk for me. I've bought rounds of drinks that cost more.

To @Bobby B consistent point - red / IR light is red / IR light. it's either powerful enough to penetrate or its not. His light has no special magic.

 

[NormySan]

Hey =)

I'm not sure if anyone can remember me, I followed this thread until about page 11.
I was kind of depressed that time and decided not to follow this forum anymore and so I also stopped following up here. This was about in Nov, 2016. However, this is a long time ago and things have changed.

Another question: Do you know anything about Marlino?


I have some good news for you and this is even related to the topic

The good news is that I am now free of tinnitus.
I define free in terms of that, In most places, even silent places, I cannot tell if I hear a sound. If I close my ears using very thick hearing protection earmuffs, I cannot tell if this sounds that I hear are different from what is described as " normal".

I have had tinnitus for about nine years. The cause was a visit in a club that was extremely loud. In this night, I did not drink anything which, so I think was also bad in terms of ear health.

I just wanted to tell you that so in fact, there is hope and it is real and it is practical. Just believe, be consistent, patient and stay happy!

I will sum up here what I did and this is all my opinion, my belief, etc. and please don't start arguing as it doesn't really help anybody. It helped me and you can try but no arguing here please.

-Endurance Sports with fresh air such as bicycling to your workplace everyday
-wearing custom-made silicone earplugs whenever I felt it is necessary (in my case everytime it was louder than a normal conversation between two people at home)
-Vitamins: B Complex , Multivitamin Preparate, D, Omega3, A
-A very quiet place to sleep: I mean no sound at all. The quieter the better!
-Amon Kaiser Laser therapy (All in all i had 17 Sessions devided into two visits once a year). This is the relation to the topic here: I would always prefer a solid high power laser over self made stuff. I have made only good experiences from the former and almost only bad experiences from the latter.
-Healthy diet, almost no alcohol, no cigarettes
-I prayed and I believe that god helped me with my fucking T and in fact I consider myself a christian now.
-try not to make restrictions to your live. Instead, try to adapt your current solutions so that they fit your "silence needs". E.g.: Instead of stopping to drive with your car (which can in fact be loud), go to a Car-Hifi specialist and get the doors and roof stuffed with foam and alubutyl so that it is a lot more silent while driving. Another example: ask your employer if you could have a more silent workplace, etc.

-Continue enjoing your life. If you feel like you want to have some alcohol now or a cigar or whatever, juist enjoy it . It is just that the everyday life should be kept free of those noxes imho.

---------------------

About the Kaiser Laser thing: After both visits, it took between 4 and 5 months until I felt any change in the tinnitus. In fact, the first thing I noticed was always an improvement in hearing and nothing else.


Always feel free write me if you need advice!

I'm happy for your success!

When you did the laser treatments what were the sessions like, how long was the duration of treatment and at what wavelengths?

 

[Bobby B]

@Lisa2018

watch this video - one the best light therapy world expert explains the basics and why LED are as good as lasers etc..

 

[Lisa2018]

@Lisa2018

watch this video - one the best light therapy world expert explains the basics and why LED are as good as lasers etc..

Thanks Bobby B. Just received the konftec lasers by mail btw!

 

[Bobby B]

I still don't understand why people would want to waste money on a small underpowered laser unit like the konfec when you can have a far more powerful and safe lightsource for a fraction of the price with Led as per Hamblin explanations in this video.

 

[ehrfried]

I'm happy for your success!

When you did the laser treatments what were the sessions like, how long was the duration of treatment and at what wavelengths?

I started the laser treatments approximately eight years after my tinnitus began. I have been under laser treatment once in 2013 by Mr. Wilden, it did not help so much, however. treatment lasted half an hour per ear. I was there for 17 treatments. The first 10 in September 2016 and the last seven in November 2017. I do not know the wavelengths, sorry. I do know that the lasers have a power of 25 W and that the beams are red and "double"pulsed. (pulses are pulsed again, so it lights like : !!!_!!!_!!!_!!!_!!!, where !! means two pulses with short break and !_! means two pulses with long brake). according to Kaiser, this is the best setting they currently know to accelerate nerve cell regeneration. The brand of the lasers is "ASA Laser".

 

[Meso82]

Hi,

I am also interested in these RedLightMan devices. It seems that I have a bit success with a clinical laser therapy until now, but not very powerful in comparison to e.g. Wilden or Kaiser. I would probably like to continue this, but I am also looking for a possibility to do something similar on a regular basis at home.

I read through the whole DIY thread the last days and as far as I have seen people who are using RedLightMan devices with (maybe success) are @Jim51042 , @Tom Cnyc, @Starman9, @lymebite ?

@lymebite is using two of these mini devices with 18W power consumption and output of 200mW/cm2. But all the others are using these large devices (red boxes) and if I get it right you put these devices close to your ear for a few minutes and 2-3 times per week? If so the mini devices should be used much longer due to the lower output in mw/cm2 (1500 vs 200)?

@lymebite are you still using a laser, so that your improvements could also be a result of this one and not the RedLightMan devices?

Thanks in advance