Drop the Word ‘Negativity’ Once and for All

[Michael Leigh]

Sometimes a member, often a new member will post and say that you can live a totally normal life. Sometimes they will add if you can't, then it's because of OCD. These are the only ones that I have fault with.

That is the unfortunate truth about tinnitus @Greg Sacramento

It is a very common condition that comes in many forms and intensities and no two people will experience it the same. Most people (not all) are able to live their lives quite successfully with or without specialist treatment, and able to habituate in a relatively short period of time which I consider to be 6 to 18months but usually within a year.

Whilst this is good news for people that fall into the group above, a lot of them tend to adopt a cavalier attitude to tinnitus especially when it is "noise induced" and not caused by an underlying medical problem within the auditory system such as: Hearing loss, Meniere's disease, Otoscelrosis or an Acoustic neuroma, that develops on the eighth cranial nerve, connecting the ear to the brain. Tinnitus for these people can get progressively worse over time, making the condition very difficult to live with. This is not usually the case with "Noise induced" tinnitus in its simplest form. However, there are a number of things that can make NIT difficult and problematic to live with which I will mention below.

Providing a person does not subject themselves to further loud noise, for the most part NIT tinnitus will stay the same. At a low to moderate level where the brain is able to easily ignore it "habituate". In some cases the tinnitus will completely disappear and only make itself known in quiet environments, or when a person deliberately focuses on it. Noise induced tinnitus can become traumatic and very debilitating if a person continues to subject themselves to loud noise or as I believe use headphones even at low volume. It is true not everyone with noise induced tinnitus will be affected by headphones but many are.

If a person has noise induced tinnitus and hyperacusis, depending on their severity specialist treatment may need to be sought with a Hearing Therapist or Audiologist, otherwise these conditions can become difficult to live with due to the psychological impact they can have on a person's mental and emotional wellbeing. For whatever reason, if specialist treatment is not acquired tinnitus can become a long term chronic problem that can encompass additional health problems that I have written about in my post: The complexities of tinnitus and hyperacusis.

As I have said, tinnitus comes in many forms and intensities and no two people experience it the same. It is very common and most people habituate. This can be helped with or without specialist treatment. For others it can become a difficult and very debilitating condition that I have touched briefly on but it is far more complexed.

Michael

https://www.tinnitustalk.com/threads/the-complexities-of-tinnitus-and-hyperacusis.25733/

 

[all to gain]

I agree. I don't see anyone in this thread making a protracted argument. Sometimes a member, often a new member will post and say that you can live a totally normal life. Sometimes they will add if you can't, then it's because of OCD. These are the only ones that I have fault with.

I am OCD/OCPD!!

I'm doomed!! Terrified for my family!!

 

[John Mahan]

I agree. I don't see anyone in this thread making a protracted argument. Sometimes a member, often a new member will post and say that you can live a totally normal life. Sometimes they will add if you can't, then it's because of OCD. These are the only ones that I have fault with.

My contrast, I give those a pass. They are merely ignorant. No nefarious intent. I find those insistent they are right like Michael Leigh more repugnant. They double down in face of copious backlash why they are wrong.

I give everybody pretty much a full pass on this forum. There is mental illness here....I believe a couple of members are profoundly mentally ill. Demonizing these people is pretty unconscionable even though they write some pretty toxic things.

I don't know how much psychology most have studied here. A few seem to get it. People don't have much free will. You have heard me write it repeatedly. People that are mentally and physically abused aren't as rational or objective as those that aren't. They make different choices and think different thoughts. An enlightened person understands this. It even begets socio economic status. Why people stay poor and why people stay rich. Education colors thinking and choices and thoughts and beliefs. Many don't choose to be poor, they were born into it as are born into wealth and expect to be rich or even get richer.

So this whole conversation on negativity....if you take a cross section of world's population already fragile from a life of some degree of mental illness and then a person is further tormented by tinnitus showing up one day...the proverbial straw that breaks the camel's back...you get some of that here....or a lot of it. This should be understood and tolerated. It is no different than walking by all the homeless aka mentally ill people living in open sight on the streets of California, one of the richest states in the US. If they had internet and some may...and tinnitus, I am sure their perspective would be different in terms of their world view compared to somebody contracting tinnitus born into more privilege.

So I find the whole conversation on negativity...tolerance or not...to be rather silly. People can't help who they are at the end of the day....from Greg who posts insightful thoughts on tinnitus to Michael who doesn't and all the rancor and real compassion displayed on this forum everyday which makes the heart feel better.

This forum is life and how we cope with adversity when there aren't solid solution to get us back to the wellness many of us once took for granted.

 

[John Mahan]

Noise induced tinnitus can become traumatic and very debilitating if a person....uses headphones even at low volume.

Unsupported rubbish. A wive's tale you repeatedly promulgate on here like a broken record. Sorry you happend to wear headphones and got tinnitus. You should have blamed your shoes. You did wear shoes everyday didn't you? Or brushing your teeth.

 

[Michael Leigh]

I am OCD/OCPD!!

I'm doomed!! Terrified for my family!!

You are not doomed @all to gain but if you keep telling yourself that you will convince yourself that you are. Veterans like @fishbone and those seasoned to tinnitus, know with a positive attitude a lot can be achieved and habituating to tinnitus will happen. Sometimes professional help is needed with a Hearing Therapist or Audiologist but you are not doomed. Please click on the links below and read my posts.

All the best
Michael

https://www.tinnitustalk.com/threads/acquiring-a-positive-mindset.23969/
https://www.tinnitustalk.com/threads/tinnitus-and-the-negative-mindset.23705/

 

[John Mahan]

You are not doomed @all to gain but if you keep telling yourself that you will convince yourself that you are. Veterans like @fishbone and those seasoned to tinnitus, know with a positive attitude a lot can be achieved and habituating to tinnitus will happen. Sometimes professional help is needed with a Hearing Therapist or Audiologist but you are not doomed. Please click on the links below and read my posts.

All the best
Michael

https://www.tinnitustalk.com/threads/acquiring-a-positive-mindset.23969/
https://www.tinnitustalk.com/threads/tinnitus-and-the-negative-mindset.23705/

More disinformation. Positive attitude isn't a choice. Positive attitude isn't the cause, its the effect.
People can't choose to be positive. They come to being positive born out of success and confidence that once again they are in charge of their lives and the invader doesn't win. Fishbone, myself and many others came to positivity after a long struggle of doubt. Over time we gained confidence we can live with tinnitus and why our disposition turned positive. In the early days, pretty much everybody is where all to gain is...frantic and riddled with self doubt. He won't believe it either until he does the time. It isn't flipping a switch and choosing to be positive. Positivity is acquired by time spent being successful. It is the essence of the definition. Positivity is rejection of negativity and the only way you achieve that is when tinnitus becomes a lessor presence in your life and not as front and center. This takes time for the brain to believe. It isn't a choice but rather a destination most arrive at.

What you write is beyond silly really. Its like losing a family member and the day after it happens you 'choose' to be positive about it. For all, the grieving process takes a long time to heal and the way we heal is to be positively reinforced by each day that goes by we can survive this tragedy.

 

[Greg Sacramento]

I don't have a clue on all the true associations between body and mind other than genes, environment, physical illnesses and injury associating to both by some amount. For any individual these factors may vary. There are many with OCD who are caring and compassionate. The biggest self harm for someone with OCD is to form negative opinions towards someone else without allowing themselves to truly consider that this person may really care about them. Those with OCD do have fears and sometimes they will resent others who try to help where it's going to take more than just a vitamin.

 

[linearb]

More disinformation. Positive attitude isn't a choice. Positive attitude isn't the cause, its the effect.
People can't choose to be positive. They come to being positive born out of success and confidence that once again they are in charge of their lives and the invader doesn't win.

The person you're arguing with isn't worth it and I agree with what you have to say to them in about 98% of cases.

In this case, however....

Do you find it depressing and disheartening to live a life where you believe you have a such a lack of agency over your own state of mind?

The amount of time I spend feeling "positive" has increased directly, as a result of very specific cognitive practices designed to feed those pathways. Additionally, we have a wealth of data from imaging studies, showing things like "doing this particular practices for 45 mins a day for 6 months, on average, reduces the size of the amygdala by a given percentage". IE, certain kinds of meditation literally make our limbic systems calmer which causes us to experience fear in a reduced way.

This doesn't mean "the invader doesn't win". Of course they do: old age, illness, death, the deaths of loved ones... all this, and more, lays ahead. However, how we choose to process that, the words we choose to think in and then the new pathways that get created, strengthened or deleted as a result of the physical reality of those thoughts.... that sure sounds like a choice to me?

I'm not going to delete "negativity" from my vocab, because I think it's a real kind of thinking which real people engage in. What I'm not going to do is preach at them to "just be more positive!" because I of all people know it doesn't fucking work that way. However, the suggesting that gains in "positivity" through sheer force of will are not possible, is in direct conflict with my life experience over the last decade.

 

[John Mahan]

The person you're arguing with isn't worth it and I agree with what you have to say to them in about 98% of cases.

In this case, however....

Do you find it depressing and disheartening to live a life where you believe you have a such a lack of agency over your own state of mind?

The amount of time I spend feeling "positive" has increased directly, as a result of very specific cognitive practices designed to feed those pathways. Additionally, we have a wealth of data from imaging studies, showing things like "doing this particular practices for 45 mins a day for 6 months, on average, reduces the size of the amygdala by a given percentage". IE, certain kinds of meditation literally make our limbic systems calmer which causes us to experience fear in a reduced way.

This doesn't mean "the invader doesn't win". Of course they do: old age, illness, death, the deaths of loved ones... all this, and more, lays ahead. However, how we choose to process that, the words we choose to think in and then the new pathways that get created, strengthened or deleted as a result of the physical reality of those thoughts.... that sure sounds like a choice to me?

I'm not going to delete "negativity" from my vocab, because I think it's a real kind of thinking which real people engage in. What I'm not going to do is preach at them to "just be more positive!" because I of all people know it doesn't fucking work that way. However, the suggesting that gains in "positivity" through sheer force of will are not possible, is in direct conflict with my life experience over the last decade.

Hi linearb,
I find you so insightful. Want to preface with that...and not sure if you asked the following rhetorically or not...

You ask:
Do you find it depressing and disheartening to live a life where you believe you have a such a lack of agency over your own state of mind?

My reply:
I don't. We work within the construct of who we are. A botanist will likely struggle with doing differential calculus.
A PhD in math may have a hard time growing plants in pots or preparing an eight course dinner...or being a good tennis player....or tuning their Ferrari if they have one.

We take what we get and most don't analyze their lack of agency. I bring it up because we don't have agency as you put it. Our genes act out interacting with the environment. A race horse with some nurturing is going to run faster than other horses but may not be the best plow horse. I would say most don't question it. It may disheartening in a relative sense. When we are young and observe the talents we don't have. But there is solace in the absolute reality that those who have a lot in one area many times don't in another. This is reinforced through life in so many ways. A simple example.

You wrote:
The amount of time I spend feeling "positive" has increased directly, as a result of very specific cognitive practices designed to feed those pathways.

My response:
It's what many do naturally. Want a golf analogy? Do you know why great drivers of the golf ball are such poor putters? They practice their driving much more than their putting when they should do the opposite to be better players. People practice their strengths and not their weaknesses. Why? Because feeding those pathways as you put it makes them feel better about themselves and life.

The great philosopher Joseph Campbell wrote a good book before he died. It was called the power of myth. What people believe. He said the key to happiness in life is 'following your bliss'. He is exactly right. What is bliss? It is what you were pretty much born to do (genes) and therefore what makes you feel good about yourself and life and ultimately what you will be good at because it is merely following the script of who you are. Your DNA playing out and hopefully shaped positively by the environment. If we go against this grain and defy our true selves, we die on some level or lead a life unfulfilled.

You wrote:
I'm not going to delete "negativity" from my vocab, because I think it's a real kind of thinking which real people engage in.

My response:
Completely agree. I was a bit careful for pushing back on Jazzer a bit. To me negativity and people's response is part of the human condition and how we initially react to tinnitus, the invader into to our here-to-fore unmolested lives of happiness. What makes tinnitus difficult and why people react so negatively is because of its rapid onset. It unexpectedly appears on day out of nowhere. Most of us never even heard of it and all we were trying to do in life is take our vitamins, and not break any bones.

You mentioned death and what lays ahead and people know this intrinsically. We die from the day we are born. So why the big deal about tinnitus. The immediacy. It comes right now and we aren't prepared. Typically dying takes a long time and we get used to the idea on some level. Not tinnitus. We didn't know what it was or where it came from or why it came and we don't fucking like it and can't make it go away. I would say a negative reaction is in order.

The last point, I suppose we disagree. I don't want to tell you how you think or how you arrived at your point of acceptance, but sheer strength of will had likely little to do with it. It was more an incremental journey of self discovery and acceptance which is the obverse of a choice.

You wrote:
What I'm not going to do is preach at them to "just be more positive!" because I of all people know it doesn't fucking work that way. However, the suggesting that gains in "positivity" through sheer force of will are not possible, is in direct conflict with my life experience over the last decade.

My response:
On its face, these seem to be two contradictory things. We agree it doesn't work that way but then you go on to say, this is in direct conflict with your life experience. I don't know you of course but it typically doesn't work that way.
People don't choose positivity...or can't. I will give you an example. I want to be an accomplished concert pianist but I have never played the piano before. I sit down to the piano and say to myself, I want to play Mozart as well as the great masters. I try and will myself to do it. The sheet music is in front of me. I can't of course. I want to. It isn't who I am 'yet'. But, I start to practice. I have talent. My parents hire a teacher from Julliard. I get better. I start to feel better about my playing. My confidence grows. I do recitals and people come up to me effusive with praise.

Positivity isn't a choice. It's a journey. I believe without knowing you that you made that journey over 10 years and your positivity blossomed from doing what you were put on the earth to do...following your bliss. Tinnitus became more a side show. The peanut galley taking pot shots at you which you ignored.


A final thought. I believe you are who you are, a thoughtful and enlightened man because of your DNA of course...but you have made that hard journey and figured a lot out. Those that haven't and there are many reason why people don't, won't have your perspective.

Thanks for your participation on this forum to elevate the dialog.

 

[Greg Sacramento]

I mentioned my thoughts on OCD above, but it should had been posted on an OCD thread. I guess I posted what I did because I posted this farther above - page 1.

Sometimes a member, often a new member will post and say that you can live a totally normal life. Sometimes they will add if you can't, then it's because of OCD. These are the only ones that I have fault with.

I hate to quote myself, but many with OCD or that have tension maybe with obsession are often good people. - just wanted to mention this again.
I think that an obsession is an uncontrollable thought or fear that causes stress.

I may be responsible for Jazzer posting again and starting this thread. I had sent him mail saying I'm hurting bad with physical pain. Damaged painful nerves in my mouth which has also caused burning mouth fire and there's no cure. I had mentioned to Dave, that I can't live a normal life with this pain along with tinnitus and I feel that it's not right for anyone to say that I can.

 

[linearb]

@Greg Sacramento you are an inspiration and wealth of knowledge to many here, certainly including me, and I am saddened to hear about your neuralgia. I hope science finds something for you, soon. Also, while I completely agree with what you posted here, I think a lot of posters could save themselves a lot of trouble by taking a step back and using the word "some" and similar qualifiers. Meaning, saying "anyone who can't come to terms with tinnitus has an OCD problem" is just as idiotic as saying "anyone who has reactive tinnitus actually has hyperacusis". On the other hand, saying "my own experience was that my OCD was making tinnitus much more difficult to process and when I dealt with that it got easier, and some other people are probably in the same boat" seems like a noncontroversial statement. When people seem unable to do that and insist on talking in tautologies, I assume they either lack self-awareness, are desperately trying to convince themselves of something, or both. But, I can't fault them for that, how could I? I lack basic self awareness, and I'm desperately trying to convince myself of things all the time

Also, since we're talking about agency -- you're not responsible for starting this thread. Jazzer started it! He's responsible. Whether he had the free will to make a "decision" about that, well... that's what the rest of this needlessly long, self-indulgent post is about.


@John Mahan thank you for a thought provoking reply, and my feeling is that we probably agree on a lot more of this than we don't, and the differences may have as much to do with our life experience and the angle we're looking at things from, as anything else.

You correctly called out some cognitive dissonance in what I'd written, so I wanted to delve a little more into agency, since you seem like someone who is both capable and, much less common, willing to come along with me on one of my little linguistic forays, so:

Imagine that we have a machine, which can with perfect accuracy simulate our physical universe*. Obviously, such a machine would need to contain more information than our universe does, but this is just a thought experiment and not an appeal to God, so that's fine. So we have our universe, A, and then in (much bigger) universe B there's a machine which can with perfect accuracy simulate the exact position of everything in our universe. All the empty space, every spin on every electron, etc.

If this were possible, and you had such a machine -- then you could predict the future with perfect accuracy, simply by running the simulation faster. And you could rewind, and fast forward, and every time, each subparticle would be tracked.

Now, to connect this with our daily reality, and "agency": I believe that I "make decisions", but, I guess on some level, I also believe that it probably is possible to construct such a machine, in a sufficiently complex (alternate) universe. With these two ideas in mind, that means that -- for every decision I make, if you could rewind time -- I would make the exact same decision, again and again, ad naseum. On the one hand, this is "terrifying" because while it allows us to "make decisions" it calls into question the nature/existence of "free will". On the other hand, I think it's actually a pretty liberating concept -- because if it were not the case that I, LinearB, given a universe and body in a particular configuration, would always move to the (same) next configuration -- that brings in the terror of "everything is actually chaos", which I don't subscribe to.

Now, duct tape all that to a bunch of time on a meditation mat, and maybe a little too much youthful time spent exploring various alternative ontologies -- and we get to the core idea of much meditative practice, which is that all dualisms are just illusions that the mind presents to make sense of a chaotic world, and we're not actually disparate, separate entities in the way we suggest -- and the concept of "free will" and "agency" gets even blurrier.

So, at a conceptual level, I don't actually understand how any of this connects, and my read of Hoefstadder's Godel, Escher, Bach as well as my read of Phillip Kapleaus The Three Pillars of Zen, brings me to the conclusion that I will never understand some things, there are questions we can't answer without stepping "outside the system", and we can't actually do that because we are -- a corporal, integral part of the universe.

I say this not to dismiss my cognitive dissonance, as much to reflect the fundamental confusion I have about all of these ideas, "agency" being chief among them.

That self-indulgent wall of text aside, two thoughts:
1 - what you describe as "a journey", I might simple describe as "a sequence of choices that led to a set of outcomes", but that seems like more of a semantic argument than a conceptual one
2 - my simple observation, from this forum (and others, having dealt with other unfortunate unfixable issues in the past) is that what I am in a "distress state", reading "negative" material reinforces my distress state, and engaging in "positive" material can help move me to a less distressed state. When the gravity of this really sank in, for me, starting to experiment with adding Metta meditation to my usual breath meditation was a no brainer. And I believe that meditation, over time, can change the brain in beneficial ways -- whether or not we're actually "choosing" to spend the time on the mat. Also the more time I spend on the mat, the more ridiculous the whole question seems.

So, to what extent did I "make choices" versus just being a pinball bouncing around at the whims of the universe? I don't really know, but I'm fairly certain I don't care, because to me that distinction between "self" and "universe" is just another dualism -- which means I am already engaging in discursive, egoic thinking -- which means I'm already lost in illusion. On the other hand, illusions can be comforting, fun, and novel -- and pure unfiltered "truth" can be oppressive. So, I am just another blind rat threading my way through the maze


* the concept of "what if we could make a working simulation of the entire universe" is explored tangentially but in an entertaining way in the Roger Zelazney shortstory Home is the Hangman which is excellent, and I would like to link you to but I am unable to find online. I know it is included in the short story collection Unicorn Variations.

 

[PeteJ]

I don't understand the accusations. Imho, it's BS. I also don't understand these accusations that some people feel worse after reading someone else's situation.

I don't feel worse from someone else. I only feel according to what my own tinnitus and ears are doing.

I have never thought that someone else's condition made me feel worse. We are here because the tinnitus and ear condition is worse than typical for tinnitus. When I read someone's tinnitus as being only heard in a quiet room, that seems mild to me. But, when I read someone saying that their tinnitus is so loud, that they are incapacitated, have trouble sleeping, maybe can't work, have ear pain, I am really sympathetic and have empathy for that person because mine is like that too. I might not know how it is for them but I can relate on some level.

But, I don't feel worse. I only wish we both had improvement and relief somehow.

 

[PeteJ]

My audiologist told me I should avoid tinnitus forums as they are filled with posts that may make you feel worse. She didn't use the term "negative people", but she said that people often have something else going badly in their lives which tends to permeate their attitude to everything that happens to them.

However that old saying about "if you could walk a mile in someone else's shoes" is one I've always tried to live by. Sometimes we use words that others may take offence to. Maybe that's part of our own conditioning - a word that has been used by our own parents, or that has struck us at one point as helpful to us, but may not be helpful to another person.

Let's all be kind to each other and think before we post. This is a great community. A literal life-saver for many. Let's keep it that way.

Your audiologist sounds like an ahole.

 

[PeteJ]

Accusing any sufferer with any condition, of negativity is the most negative (i.e. hateful) comment I can think of.

The chances are that they are coping with their situation the very best way they can.

That was my only point - which I felt was really worth making.
I'm not interested in any protracted arguments back and forth.
I'm just relieved that some folks get my point.

Back now to semi-retirement,

love
Dave x
Jazzer

I agree. Saying "oh, that person is just negative" or "they have other things going on, that's why they are like that. That's why they are upset and not coping" is dismissing the condition of the tinnitus which is done because no one can know what they are going through. It's easier and convenient to conclude something that blames the person instead of what explains it based on what the tinnitus and related issues is doing to them.

 

[Lane]

On the other hand, illusions can be comforting, fun, and novel -- and pure unfiltered "truth" can be oppressive. So, I am just another blind rat threading my way through the maze

Hey @linearb -- Thanks for your amusing musings (is there a connection between those two words, you wordsmith you!) -- I read most of your post, but something started whirling inside me after a while, though not sure if it was my mind or something else. -- You made a comment earlier on "the mind", which reminded me of a story I ran across a few years ago, which was told by a mother about her daughter. I think you just might appreciate it.

A young child awoke one morning and told her Mom that a spiritual guide near and dear to their family had come to her during the night. She excitedly told her mother how when he arrived, they went on a long journey together flying through the stars. During this time he "took away her mind", and that after doing so, she KNEW everything! She then said that when the journey was over, her mind was given back to her--and that she then become all dumb again. -- Just a child's wild imagination???​

 

[John Mahan]

@Greg Sacramento you are an inspiration and wealth of knowledge to many here, certainly including me, and I am saddened to hear about your neuralgia. I hope science finds something for you, soon. Also, while I completely agree with what you posted here, I think a lot of posters could save themselves a lot of trouble by taking a step back and using the word "some" and similar qualifiers. Meaning, saying "anyone who can't come to terms with tinnitus has an OCD problem" is just as idiotic as saying "anyone who has reactive tinnitus actually has hyperacusis". On the other hand, saying "my own experience was that my OCD was making tinnitus much more difficult to process and when I dealt with that it got easier, and some other people are probably in the same boat" seems like a noncontroversial statement. When people seem unable to do that and insist on talking in tautologies, I assume they either lack self-awareness, are desperately trying to convince themselves of something, or both. But, I can't fault them for that, how could I? I lack basic self awareness, and I'm desperately trying to convince myself of things all the time

Also, since we're talking about agency -- you're not responsible for starting this thread. Jazzer started it! He's responsible. Whether he had the free will to make a "decision" about that, well... that's what the rest of this needlessly long, self-indulgent post is about.


@John Mahan thank you for a thought provoking reply, and my feeling is that we probably agree on a lot more of this than we don't, and the differences may have as much to do with our life experience and the angle we're looking at things from, as anything else.

You correctly called out some cognitive dissonance in what I'd written, so I wanted to delve a little more into agency, since you seem like someone who is both capable and, much less common, willing to come along with me on one of my little linguistic forays, so:

Imagine that we have a machine, which can with perfect accuracy simulate our physical universe*. Obviously, such a machine would need to contain more information than our universe does, but this is just a thought experiment and not an appeal to God, so that's fine. So we have our universe, A, and then in (much bigger) universe B there's a machine which can with perfect accuracy simulate the exact position of everything in our universe. All the empty space, every spin on every electron, etc.

If this were possible, and you had such a machine -- then you could predict the future with perfect accuracy, simply by running the simulation faster. And you could rewind, and fast forward, and every time, each subparticle would be tracked.

Now, to connect this with our daily reality, and "agency": I believe that I "make decisions", but, I guess on some level, I also believe that it probably is possible to construct such a machine, in a sufficiently complex (alternate) universe. With these two ideas in mind, that means that -- for every decision I make, if you could rewind time -- I would make the exact same decision, again and again, ad naseum. On the one hand, this is "terrifying" because while it allows us to "make decisions" it calls into question the nature/existence of "free will". On the other hand, I think it's actually a pretty liberating concept -- because if it were not the case that I, LinearB, given a universe and body in a particular configuration, would always move to the (same) next configuration -- that brings in the terror of "everything is actually chaos", which I don't subscribe to.

Now, duct tape all that to a bunch of time on a meditation mat, and maybe a little too much youthful time spent exploring various alternative ontologies -- and we get to the core idea of much meditative practice, which is that all dualisms are just illusions that the mind presents to make sense of a chaotic world, and we're not actually disparate, separate entities in the way we suggest -- and the concept of "free will" and "agency" gets even blurrier.

So, at a conceptual level, I don't actually understand how any of this connects, and my read of Hoefstadder's Godel, Escher, Bach as well as my read of Phillip Kapleaus The Three Pillars of Zen, brings me to the conclusion that I will never understand some things, there are questions we can't answer without stepping "outside the system", and we can't actually do that because we are -- a corporal, integral part of the universe.

I say this not to dismiss my cognitive dissonance, as much to reflect the fundamental confusion I have about all of these ideas, "agency" being chief among them.

That self-indulgent wall of text aside, two thoughts:
1 - what you describe as "a journey", I might simple describe as "a sequence of choices that led to a set of outcomes", but that seems like more of a semantic argument than a conceptual one
2 - my simple observation, from this forum (and others, having dealt with other unfortunate unfixable issues in the past) is that what I am in a "distress state", reading "negative" material reinforces my distress state, and engaging in "positive" material can help move me to a less distressed state. When the gravity of this really sank in, for me, starting to experiment with adding Metta meditation to my usual breath meditation was a no brainer. And I believe that meditation, over time, can change the brain in beneficial ways -- whether or not we're actually "choosing" to spend the time on the mat. Also the more time I spend on the mat, the more ridiculous the whole question seems.

So, to what extent did I "make choices" versus just being a pinball bouncing around at the whims of the universe? I don't really know, but I'm fairly certain I don't care, because to me that distinction between "self" and "universe" is just another dualism -- which means I am already engaging in discursive, egoic thinking -- which means I'm already lost in illusion. On the other hand, illusions can be comforting, fun, and novel -- and pure unfiltered "truth" can be oppressive. So, I am just another blind rat threading my way through the maze


* the concept of "what if we could make a working simulation of the entire universe" is explored tangentially but in an entertaining way in the Roger Zelazney shortstory Home is the Hangman which is excellent, and I would like to link you to but I am unable to find online. I know it is included in the short story collection Unicorn Variations.

Thanks for your prolific thoughts linearb. Yes, I do somewhat believe in your wind and unwind parallel universe if all the matter is the same. People based upon their cognition and data set given identical circumstances will repeat the same good choices and bad choices. Changing the environment, changes the cognition because the landscape is part of the data set.

I would like to square the circle for me at least and reinforce what I believe in the context you write. Not sure it will add clarity for you but it is how I see it.

You seem to understand the dissonance of your two competing thoughts I called out and overwhelmingly we agree about things and you may notice I quote you on this forum time to time because you have such keen insight.

The two things you find in discord:

You wrote:
1 - what you describe as "a journey", I might simple describe as "a sequence of choices that led to a set of outcomes", but that seems like more of a semantic argument than a conceptual one

My response:
Yes, that's correct. And further, I believe this journey leads to positivity for those fortunate enough to come to terms with tinnitus...provided it isn't too obtrusive and they recover from the initial 'attack' and invasion of their mind space. They get used to the noisy college roommate and focus on what they love in life and follow their bliss.
But that journey doesn't always lead to positivity. It can stay mired in the negative state for what many believe is too long which is sadly unfortunate. For these people, I will use Pete as an example because he is posting in this thread and sorry Pete to mention you, but Pete writes about his suicidal ideation on this forum all the time. He obsesses about it to release himself from his personal torment and anguish. He has made the journey for a while at least but so far hasn't led to positivity. He can't be positive. Not within the framework of his DNA interacting with his environment. I don't really know Pete or what he was like before contracting tinnitus if he had any mental health challenges. So it isn't within his DNA given his negative circumstances. DNA can be tweaked with meds. Many choose meds to revise their brain chemistry which alters thinking including me from time to time because I feel desperate beyond my control. When thoughts race outside the normal bound of thinking. I feel I am smart but I can't will myself to be positive and believe everything will be ok. Pete can't either but he lives in this desperate state much longer than I do which is generally for only minutes until a take a pill and I am good. I don't need pills very often. But once in a while my tinnitus interacts with my brain chemistry and robs me of my objectivity and positivity. I can't choose positivity. I am not myself or thinking straight. But I am really myself. This is who I am at a given time. My DNA interacting with environment. Not my DNA of 20 years old interacting with my environment then. I didn't have tinnitus until very late in life. Positivity was a destination for me after contracting tinnitus after living a very positive life. I love life and honestly have tried to fuck off my whole life having fun. But I have a very studious side which led me to my career which is merely being who I am...my DNA which was fortunate to flourish because of parents who understood and loved me.



You wrote:
2 - my simple observation, from this forum (and others, having dealt with other unfortunate unfixable issues in the past) is that what I am in a "distress state", reading "negative" material reinforces my distress state, and engaging in "positive" material can help move me to a less distressed state. When the gravity of this really sank in, for me, starting to experiment with adding Metta meditation to my usual breath meditation was a no brainer. And I believe that meditation, over time, can change the brain in beneficial ways -- whether or not we're actually "choosing" to spend the time on the mat. Also the more time I spend on the mat, the more ridiculous the whole question seems.

My response:
To me this is simple and I really believe you are conflating the actual journey with what you to believe your choice to be positive. You see, it is your journey that tells the voice in your head, enough is enough. You are sick of the negative. You are sick of being sick. You will branch out and change. Many emerge btw from tinnitus. I have. They don't make this choice instantaneously to be positive. Their journey is forged by confidence that they can survive it and incrementally they become positive by positive aka positivity reinforcement.

As I see it your choice of positivity was in actual fact a journey of discovery to positivity:
1. You feel horrible about your then current state...your relentless tinnitus and your mind's reaction to it
2. You read negative material on this forum which reinforces your distressed state but you also read stories of people emerging and doing ok and having conversations like this.
3. After you had enough. Sick of being sick and drowning in your negativity, you were ready to emerge. I can't live in this gloom and doom state any longer. There has to be a better path. Time for the path of your journey to morph.
4. You do some reading and listening to others. You still on some level have some flexibility in your thinking that tinnitus hasn't robbed you of and so you consider meditation. You hear it may be even able to remap your brain a bit. To change your thinking. Btw, a neurosurgeon I visited for a consultation said the same thing and what he recommended.
5. Your journey directed you toward meditation. You performed it, it changed your thinking and directed you to positive thinking whereby now after the series of events aka your journey, you now 'choose' to be positive. I think you get the picture. People's choices are pretty much always the destination of a preceding journey of not knowing what to do and moving forward and discovery.


In summary, to me, when you believe you are making a choice, you are in a manner of speaking but...it is based upon the journey that takes you there that you don't preordain. Why don't you preordain your journey or make a 'choice' about the outcome of your journey aka choose to be positive? Because you have never taken the trip before and therefore know where it will lead you and that is a good thing that we don't know how our lives are going to unfold.

Some thoughts. Not sure that adds clarity or squares the circle for you. No free will. Your DNA interacting with the environment. You are dealt each and they interact. You sculpt your environment aka journey based upon your DNA. A schizophrenia given your same environment and parents isn't going to make the same choices. DNA. You may have noticed that people with extraordinary talent carve a different path aka environment based upon their DNA. Prodigies and champions are treated differently than average people which changes their environment and their journey and as a result they make different choices that average people and what sets them apart.

 

[JohnAdams]

Whatever does this mean?

 

[linearb]

@John Mahan to all that, and interesting fodder for thought. The concept of hitting a basically non-voluntary breaking point as a result of being "sick and tired of being sick and tired" is something of a meme in drug addiction recovery programs, often cited as the fundamental necessary thing that needs to happen before an addict will ever "decide" to put the needle down.

Hey @linearb -- Thanks for your amusing musings (is there a connection between those two words, you wordsmith you!) -- I read most of your post, but something started whirling inside me after a while, though not sure if it was my mind or something else. -- You made a comment earlier on "the mind", which reminded me of a story I ran across a few years ago, which was told by a mother about her daughter. I think you just might appreciate it.

A young child awoke one morning and told her Mom that a spiritual guide near and dear to their family had come to her during the night. She excitedly told her mother how when he arrived, they went on a long journey together flying through the stars. During this time he "took away her mind", and that after doing so, she KNEW everything! She then said that when the journey was over, her mind was given back to her--and that she then become all dumb again. -- Just a child's wild imagination???​

Hi @Lane and thanks for the reply.

I'm just going to say this opens a deep hornet's nest. There is a book I'm fond of, an instruction manual for learning how to meditate in lucid dreams, when sleeping. It's called The Tibetan Yogas of Dream and Sleep and is a PDF here: https://selfdefinition.org/tibetan/Tenzin-Wangyal-Rinpoche-The-Tibetan-Yogas-Of-Dream-And-Sleep.pdf

This is 95% an instruction manual for Western audiences, and he deliberately omits most of the theological underpinnings. However, in one chapter where he's describing the 4 "common" states of dream, he makes an oblique reference to the fact that there is a "fifth type" where it's possible to "actually interact with externalities and access external information". The example he gives is of needing to reach his own spiritual teacher who was off continent, doing so in a dream, and then having an experience that both of them remember.

I consider myself fairly rational; my mother was a science teacher. None of these things can be explained by what we understand now, so they're easy to dismiss. On the other hand, as a result of this work, I have had twice in my life experiences with dreams which utterly defy my ability to rationally explain them away, and so more or less I just don't try: I accept that I had some really interesting experiences that I'm not really capable of understanding from my limited perspective, and so whether they are "truth" or "hallucination" isn't knowable. I'm also pretty convinced that for me such distinctions don't really matter, because the whole idea of things being "internal to LinearB and separate from the universe" doesn't make sense to me; I don't really believe I am a disparate, separate entity -- I am as much part of my environment as the air I breathe, it's just egoic illusions convincing me I exist. It's a useful illusion, though; having experienced non-dualistic ontology a handful of times in my life, it's fascinating, and also a completely useless state to try to do my job in, or any of the other number of things.

I do not think it's unscientific to suspect that things are connected in ways we're not yet aware of or don't understand. In fact, I think this is overwhelmingly likely. Whether this means we can actually "talk to other people" in dreams -- well, that sounds pretty woo, and so it's not a concept I would base life decisions around. On the other hand, having had direct experiences of this -- it's a deeply unsettling experience, it calls into question a lot of things about the day to day world I live in. This might bother me more, except that I think about 99.9% of what I experience day to day is just my own ego-vomit hallucinatory sense of the world anyway, so what's one more delusion? The idea that we might be connected in ways that we don't understand which could occasionally manifest as dream contact, to me, seems a lot less crazy than "Jesus died for your sins" or whatever. Most of the things people think about through the day probably aren't true or real outside their heads. I do not think I am a special case.

 

[John Mahan]

@John Mahan to all that, and interesting fodder for thought. The concept of hitting a basically non-voluntary breaking point as a result of being "sick and tired of being sick and tired" is something of a meme in drug addiction recovery programs, often cited as the fundamental necessary thing that needs to happen before an addict will ever "decide" to put the needle down.


Hi @Lane and thanks for the reply.

I'm just going to say this opens a deep hornet's nest. There is a book I'm fond of, an instruction manual for learning how to meditate in lucid dreams, when sleeping. It's called The Tibetan Yogas of Dream and Sleep and is a PDF here: https://selfdefinition.org/tibetan/Tenzin-Wangyal-Rinpoche-The-Tibetan-Yogas-Of-Dream-And-Sleep.pdf

This is 95% an instruction manual for Western audiences, and he deliberately omits most of the theological underpinnings. However, in one chapter where he's describing the 4 "common" states of dream, he makes an oblique reference to the fact that there is a "fifth type" where it's possible to "actually interact with externalities and access external information". The example he gives is of needing to reach his own spiritual teacher who was off continent, doing so in a dream, and then having an experience that both of them remember.

I consider myself fairly rational; my mother was a science teacher. None of these things can be explained by what we understand now, so they're easy to dismiss. On the other hand, as a result of this work, I have had twice in my life experiences with dreams which utterly defy my ability to rationally explain them away, and so more or less I just don't try: I accept that I had some really interesting experiences that I'm not really capable of understanding from my limited perspective, and so whether they are "truth" or "hallucination" isn't knowable. I'm also pretty convinced that for me such distinctions don't really matter, because the whole idea of things being "internal to LinearB and separate from the universe" doesn't make sense to me; I don't really believe I am a disparate, separate entity -- I am as much part of my environment as the air I breathe, it's just egoic illusions convincing me I exist. It's a useful illusion, though; having experienced non-dualistic ontology a handful of times in my life, it's fascinating, and also a completely useless state to try to do my job in, or any of the other number of things.

I do not think it's unscientific to suspect that things are connected in ways we're not yet aware of or don't understand. In fact, I think this is overwhelmingly likely. Whether this means we can actually "talk to other people" in dreams -- well, that sounds pretty woo, and so it's not a concept I would base life decisions around. On the other hand, having had direct experiences of this -- it's a deeply unsettling experience, it calls into question a lot of things about the day to day world I live in. This might bother me more, except that I think about 99.9% of what I experience day to day is just my own ego-vomit hallucinatory sense of the world anyway, so what's one more delusion? The idea that we might be connected in ways that we don't understand which could occasionally manifest as dream contact, to me, seems a lot less crazy than "Jesus died for your sins" or whatever. Most of the things people think about through the day probably aren't true or real outside their heads. I do not think I am a special case.

And Lane, based upon what you wrote above, that way we are all interconnected is through consciousness. Some scholars are re-examining consciousness which here-to-fore was thought to be ostensibly exclusive to each of us. Each of having a separate brain and consciousness. This theory however is debunked by occurrences like near death experiences, re-incarnation when children recall precisely who they were in previous lives and where they lived and how they died....and great precociousness like Mozart and even savant syndrome. It also explains ESP on some level and even more commonly intuition.

I keep an open mind about this including the notion there isn't a God. People underestimate the vastness of the universe and the infinite permutations of the primordial soup conducive to life...or even modern man evolving from primitive man 200,000 years ago. Many of the greatest minds that ever lived including Hawking who further refined Einstein's theory of relativity which debunked Newton's more linear postulates and even Einstein himself didn't believe in God and of course both men studied the universe and the probabilities for life to exist without God greater than just about anybody else. Speaking of evolution, there is a reason that the cell phone was just invented 20 years ago and not around in the time of Christ.

This may expand your view a bit. A story of a Harvard educated neurosurgeon that used to believe that consciousness was singular and the brain was analogous to a computer CPU and when the switch turned off the brain died and so did the spirit. He believes completely different now. He has spent his life studying the brain and operating on it and knows a little about the subject.

His story:

 

[all to gain]

The person you're arguing with isn't worth it and I agree with what you have to say to them in about 98% of cases.

In this case, however....

Do you find it depressing and disheartening to live a life where you believe you have a such a lack of agency over your own state of mind?

The amount of time I spend feeling "positive" has increased directly, as a result of very specific cognitive practices designed to feed those pathways. Additionally, we have a wealth of data from imaging studies, showing things like "doing this particular practices for 45 mins a day for 6 months, on average, reduces the size of the amygdala by a given percentage". IE, certain kinds of meditation literally make our limbic systems calmer which causes us to experience fear in a reduced way.

This doesn't mean "the invader doesn't win". Of course they do: old age, illness, death, the deaths of loved ones... all this, and more, lays ahead. However, how we choose to process that, the words we choose to think in and then the new pathways that get created, strengthened or deleted as a result of the physical reality of those thoughts.... that sure sounds like a choice to me?

I'm not going to delete "negativity" from my vocab, because I think it's a real kind of thinking which real people engage in. What I'm not going to do is preach at them to "just be more positive!" because I of all people know it doesn't fucking work that way. However, the suggesting that gains in "positivity" through sheer force of will are not possible, is in direct conflict with my life experience over the last decade.

I haven't read the whole thread, but could you tell the "very specific cognitive practices" you have done? If meditation, exactly what did you do? Thanks.

 

[linearb]

I haven't read the whole thread, but could you tell the "very specific cognitive practices" you have done? If meditation, exactly what did you do? Thanks.

I have found metta/loving kindness work to be fundamental to cultivating love for self, which is the basis for love for others. The metta principle is to slowly expand your sense of "I" to encompass all living beings.

Tons of info online; anyone charging for anything related to meditation tech or practice is probably a scammer. I think this stuff is cheap (free) and definitely "works", but it's a process and not a product, it's not like taking a pill. It's simple but not easy, and requires a significant time investment as well as a willingness to fearlessly examine yourself and discard anything you're carrying that you don't need anymore.

At first, people often feel worse when they jump into a meditation practice because if you're used to walling off a lot of unpleasant emotions or thoughts, well, that's just totally at odds with what mindfulness is trying for, so those walls have to come down. That can be rough, but it can sort of turn you into a somewhat different person, over a period of time, which I think is pretty fascinating.

There are a million different practices and processes, though, and on some level, most roads lead to Rome. I wouldn't say "all roads", some might go to Poughkeepsie NY or something.

 

[all to gain]

I have found metta/loving kindness work to be fundamental to cultivating love for self, which is the basis for love for others. The metta principle is to slowly expand your sense of "I" to encompass all living beings.

Tons of info online; anyone charging for anything related to meditation tech or practice is probably a scammer. I think this stuff is cheap (free) and definitely "works", but it's a process and not a product, it's not like taking a pill. It's simple but not easy, and requires a significant time investment as well as a willingness to fearlessly examine yourself and discard anything you're carrying that you don't need anymore.

At first, people often feel worse when they jump into a meditation practice because if you're used to walling off a lot of unpleasant emotions or thoughts, well, that's just totally at odds with what mindfulness is trying for, so those walls have to come down. That can be rough, but it can sort of turn you into a somewhat different person, over a period of time, which I think is pretty fascinating.

There are a million different practices and processes, though, and on some level, most roads lead to Rome. I wouldn't say "all roads", some might go to Poughkeepsie NY or something.

OK, thanks. Stuff like this is hard for me.

 

[Mister Muso]

Your audiologist sounds like an ahole.

She's not the worst medic I've encountered on my tinnitus journey. One ENT doc told me my tinnitus couldn't be noise-induced because the only way that can happen is if you are exposed to something like standing next to a landmine when it goes off. And he calls himself a tinnitus specialist!

The audiologist meant well, and she says she has tinnitus too. But when she said she can only hear it in a quiet room, I realised that she had no idea what I go through, or how to help me.

 

[linearb]

The audiologist meant well, and she says she has tinnitus too. But when she said she can only hear it in a quiet room, I realised that she had no idea what I go through, or how to help me.

my pelvic surgeon didn't have a hernia but that did not stop him from fixing mine

none of the GPs or ENTs that have been actually helpful or useful to me in this process, have had tinnitus, unless you include Susan Shore in that list. What they have had, is a willingness to respect me as a subject matter expert on my own condition, and call the shots as to what kind of treatment I want, within reasonable limits.

 

[Michael Leigh]

My audiologist told me I should avoid tinnitus forums as they are filled with posts that may make you feel worse. She didn't use the term "negative people", but she said that people often have something else going badly in their lives which tends to permeate their attitude to everything that happens to them.

However that old saying about "if you could walk a mile in someone else's shoes" is one I've always tried to live by. Sometimes we use words that others may take offence to. Maybe that's part of our own conditioning - a word that has been used by our own parents, or that has struck us at one point as helpful to us, but may not be helpful to another person.

Let's all be kind to each other and think before we post. This is a great community. A literal life-saver for many. Let's keep it that way.

@Mister Muso

An interesting post Mister Muso and I agree with you. I agree with a lot of what your Audiologist has said especially: forums are filled with posts that may make you feel worse. People often have something else going badly in their lives which tends to permeate their attitude to everything that happens to them.

The text in blue I find particularly poignant and true. This is where a lot of negativity stems from and the difficultly that some people have accepting and habituating to tinnitus.

All the best
Michael

 

[HeavyMantra]

Unsupported rubbish. A wive's tale you repeatedly promulgate on here like a broken record. Sorry you happend to wear headphones and got tinnitus. You should have blamed your shoes. You did wear shoes everyday didn't you? Or brushing your teeth.

What a pointless, ignorant post.

Look, I dislike the way Michael Leigh conducts himself just as much as the next guy. The reasons for this are obvious and have been repeated by many people here

However, continued use of headphones is what did me in. If I had stopped using them while my T was so low I forgot I had it, I would still have a good life. But no, I did NOT hear anybody talk about how dangerous they were. No doctor, audiologist or "scientist" told me about this. They told me the opposite. WHY would they even do that, instead of saying "I don't know, I don't think headphones are the cause of your tinnitus but please be cautious with them". What they told me instead, the clueless fucks, was that there was NO WAY my T was noise induced because I have NO hearing loss, not even hidden hearing loss. No doubt basing this on "science".

Michael could have saved my life, as it were. But I was not at a stage where I was distressed about my very low tinnitus, so I didn't visit these types of forums. If I had, I would have stopped using headphones before disaster struck. Instead, I listened to doctors and audiologists that have absolutely no clue about tinnitus in a practical sense

Headphones are fucking dangerous. Maybe not for your ears, good for you, and good luck.

If you haven't figured this out already, science isn't really valuable if a person wants to keep their tinnitus from getting worse. Anecdotal reports is all we have

 

[Mister Muso]

I don't think it's a pointless post. There is a lot of evidence that having a positive and optimistic outlook can help your recovery from various different illnesses, whether it's cancer, a broken leg or whatever. So why not tinnitus too?

We don't all have the same benefits of positive minded role models in our lives. My parents weren't perfect and neither am I. But I've figured out that a positive and hopeful view of my ability to make further recovery and to still enjoy life is essential, and I have avoided certain threads in here which I believe could have dragged me into a darker place at particular stages.

 

[HeavyMantra]

I don't think it's a pointless post. There is a lot of evidence that having a positive and optimistic outlook can help your recovery from various different illnesses, whether it's cancer, a broken leg or whatever. So why not tinnitus too?

We don't all have the same benefits of positive minded role models in our lives. My parents weren't perfect and neither am I. But I've figured out that a positive and hopeful view of my ability to make further recovery and to still enjoy life is essential, and I have avoided certain threads in here which I believe could have dragged me into a darker place at particular stages.

I was referring to the post I quoted only

 

[JohnAdams]

Just stop scolding people for expressing their sadness.

 

[JohnAdams]

What is most remarkable is...don't guys as dumb as you usually do yourself in?

Don't guys as annoying as you end up getting their teeth knocked out after pissing off the wrong person?