Eckhart Tolle — “Stillness Speaks”

[emmalee]

@emmalee, just wanted to say hello and needed someone to talk to. I always valued your thoughts. You have a brilliant mind and have been so compassionate towards me and others.

I've been asked a few times "Are you a doctor?" I answered no, not a doctor, I have 4 years college study in mind, body and biology. Also attended January intersection and summer school which I found more of a benefit because both a theater stage and a patient medical bed was used.

College isn't needed for study of mind and body or body and mind, but use of a stage and medical bed taught me what reality ready is. A psychology course on abuse, meanness, being a victim and related conditions that are inherited or not was the best study I ever had. I continued study throughout life.

I read lots of philosophy books including Eastern Philosophy - and all the rational, abstract and methodical stuff'.

I don't believe cognitive therapy works - as thought or mental fixation to a more positive, realistic focus when one has serious physical pain.

All my professors and many philosophers believe that when someone has serious physical pain that can't be medically solved, there's no answers if pain meds can't be used. For me, pain meds makes my tinnitus go sonic - an unbearable very high pitch whistling. Most all with tinnitus can take some type of pain meds if needed, but I can't.

Hello Dave, @Jazzer - Wish peace for all and peace for you.

Sorry for any mistakes, only have one eye again and with the other- vision is weak. Plus in so much pain.

Hello Greg. Thank you for your lovely words, they are very touching.

I am a lover of philosophy, and like you, have read an endless amount on the subject. Where we differ is that I find cognitive therapy does work for me, along with meditation, relaxation techniques and yoga.Without these techniques I am not sure what would have become of me, since acquiring tinnitus.

Now, all this said, I do not suffer the pain that you so unfortunately do. I sincerely wish that you did not have to endure such pain, Greg. I believe you when you say that cognitive therapy doesn't help when one is dealing with serious physical pain. The fact that you continue to push through it all is very telling, indeed. It is a testament to your great inner strength and character.

How lovely to talk with you again, I have missed this place.

 

[emmalee]

Mick was more physically frail than I.
(6lb 2oz - to my 7lb 2oz)
Mum already had a five year old son Brian.
Mick was the chosen one throughout his life.
Put simply, mum could not cope with three.
I was frequently farmed out to an auntie.
Mick never presented any mental health problems.

As recently as one week ago he was astounded to hear me say that I have had distressing subliminal messages for all of my life.

Despite our vastly different experience, I would have to say that Mick is a very kind caring guy.

I would describe my older brother as very difficult, probably an Aspergers/Narcissist.
I hope I'm not boring you Emmalee.

(An item of trivia: when I was jazzing, one of my features was a lovely old melody called 'Emaline.'
Incidentally - this is not a 'chat-up' line.)

View attachment 45714

Thank-you for the reply, Dave. You are not boring me, so no worries.

 

[Greg Sacramento]

@emmalee, glad to know that you are doing well and thank you for your understanding.

When I got tinnitus from syringing it was very loud and my hearing loss with slopes went off the audiogram.

After two years I had much less emotional response.

To overcome some emotional response, I used measures to quantify the amount of variation or dispersion of a set of data values - a simple satisfaction confidence model of building and improving something with color that I always liked doing before. Myself therapy was getting back to building baseball card sets. Searched eBay by using the advance feature for the best graded cards for the lowest price. I then was able to trade stocks again and work around the house. I had mentioned all this years ago.

Being older - 69 and now with the addition of sharp high pitch somatic and pulsatile tinnitus (4 loud sounds) and several areas of severe physical pain including mouth with also burning pain, aneurysms and with loss of most sight and hypertension - makes for a very difficult life. 16 needed operations would not help with all my physical conditions.

Hugs.

 

[emmalee]

@emmalee, glad to know that you are doing well and thank you for your understanding.

When I got tinnitus from syringing it was very loud and my hearing loss with slopes went off the audiogram.

After two years I had much less emotional response.

To overcome some emotional response, I used measures to quantify the amount of variation or dispersion of a set of data values - a simple satisfaction confidence model of building and improving something with color that I always liked doing before. Myself therapy was getting back to building baseball card sets. Searched eBay by using the advance feature for the best graded cards for the lowest price. I then was able to trade stocks again and work around the house. I had mentioned all this years ago.

Being older - 69 and now with the addition of sharp high pitch somatic and pulsatile tinnitus (4 loud sounds) and several areas of severe physical pain including mouth with also burning pain, aneurysms and with loss of most sight and hypertension - makes for a very difficult life. 16 needed operations would not help with all my physical conditions.

Hugs.

You are most welcome, Greg.

I think distraction is key, if we can put our minds elsewhere then our focus may not be entirely on tinnitus. Trading stocks, doing jobs around the house and trading baseball cards are wonderful distractions, in my opinion.

 

[Jazzer]

 

[emmalee]

Wherever you are, be there totally. If you find your here and now intolerable and it makes you unhappy, you have three options: remove yourself from the situation, change it, or accept it, totally.

If you want to take responsibility for your life, you must choose one of those three options, and you must choose now. Then accept the consequences.

Eckhart Tolle ~

 

[TracyJS]

"There is a vast difference between positive thinking and existential courage"

~Barbara Ehrenreich

 

[Jazzer]

"There is a vast difference between positive thinking and existential courage"

~Barbara Ehrenreich

Hi Tracy - lovely to see your name pop up.

Before we go any further:

{{{{{{{{{{ BIG HUG }}}}}}}}}}

Please try reading 'A New Earth.' Eckhart Tolle.

It helps me greatly.

Dave
xxxx

 

[aura]

"There is a vast difference between positive thinking and existential courage"

~Barbara Ehrenreich

Life is not always rainbows and unicorns.

Life can be very cruel and you need to develop the skills and find the courage to confront it.

Hope for the best and prepare for the worst.

This is the way I see things.

 

[Exit]

Life is not always rainbows and unicorns.

Life can be very cruel and you need to develop the skills and find the courage to confront it.

Hope for the best and prepare for the worst.

This is the way I see things.

View attachment 45990

Someone's grumpy today

 

[aura]

Someone's grumpy today

Actually I'm in a good mood today!

 

[Exit]

Actually I'm in a good mood today!

Oooh that's nice!

Foot better?

 

[Greg Sacramento]

"There is a vast difference between positive thinking and existential courage"

~Barbara Ehrenreich

She has some real life thoughts.

"I didn't mind dying, but the idea that I should do so while clutching a teddy and with a sweet little smile on my face—well, no amount of philosophy had prepared me for that."

She has also mentioned that no amount of philosophy can overcome severe physical pain.

Of all the philosophy books that I read, all philosophers said that you can't be happy with severe physical pain, except Eckhart Tolle who said those in severe pain can live a happy and total pleasing live.

 

[Jazzer]

She has also mentioned that no amount of philosophy can overcome severe physical pain.

Of all the philosophy books that I read, all philosophers said that you can't be happy with severe physical pain, except Eckhart Tolle who said those in severe pain can live a happy and total pleasing live.

I agree with her.
I agree with Greg.
I agree with Tracy.
How can one be happy with severe pain?
How can one be happy with severe noise?
It makes absolutely NO SENSE.
I have searched for a verbatim quote from Tolle where he precisely makes this claim.
I cannot find such a text.
He does quote Shakespeare's line:
"There is nothing good or bad, but thinking makes it so."
This is clearly 'World Class Crap of the highest order!!!'

He does however state that resistance to the
'is-ness' of what is, is futile.
There is no point in resisting the actuality of a condition.
I positively 'hate' my conditions.
But I somehow have to accept the reality of them because they are there.
I have to calm down if at all possible.
Folks - I wholeheartedly agree with you.

BUT - his value, to me, is in his work in the psychological realm of 'self-speak.'
The concept, in fact reality, of an internal relentless condemning voice, that reruns our life, as a negative minute by minute, day by day,
punishing narrative.
"You did this. You said that. You are scum!!!"
I will just remind you here, that my infancy, my childhood, my entire life has been blighted by maternal deprivation, and the abuse occasioned by total neglect from a severely mentally ill mother.
In short - in the mental health arena, he has some value.
Much of the rest of it is questionable I'd say.

 

[Greg Sacramento]

I have searched for a verbatim quote from Tolle where he precisely makes this claim

Only about Tolle with living a happy life with severe pain. I and others > (see last words below) have heard or read him say this.

I went and saw Tolle in San Francisco many years ago and he said this:

"Regardless of a severe injury and severe pain, one still should be able to be happy and feel joy."

I posted this on thread "Tinnitus Truth" page 34 in June of 2020.

This is from an internet article that I included in same "Tinnitus Truths" post.

Tolle adds insult to injury by insinuating that the soldier who has lost limbs on the battle field, and saw too much horror, is making himself unhappy, whereas Eckhart's eternal bliss would not have been shaken by the same experience.

 

[Jazzer]

Some will see no value in anything he says.
His views on the causes of mental ill health are very valid to me, informative and helpful.
We all take a view.

But as I've said before, I am not interested in engaging in yet another argument.

 

[Jazzer]

It is very likely true that Eckhart Tolle's teachings represent 'a curate's egg.'

i.e. good in parts.

 

[emmalee]

The beauty of this forum, for me at least, is that we can all agree to disagree on any given point of view.

First of all, acceptance does not mean that we are ok with the situation we're in. Mostly, acceptance means acknowledging that this is what's happening.

Though this can be seen as passive, acceptance is not for the faint-hearted, not at all.

Acceptance is a painful process with its highs and lows. Along the way, you will partly let go of the person you were and the life you had envisioned and try to somehow make the best of the situation you've been handed.

If Eckhart Tolle and his philosophy resinates with someone, then there is no harm being done, in fact there is only good, in my very humble opinion.

 

[DaveFromChicago]

On the issue of habituation (whether from Tolle, Jastreboff, Julian Cowan Hill, the recent plethora of posters on this Forum, etc.), I agree with Jazzer that I also am not interested in engaging in yet another argument.

emmalee is also entirely correct.

I regard these proponents of enthusiastic habituation as having the quite staggering naivete of sixth graders regarding how trauma inevitably impacts consciousness, which is so forcefully borne out by Greg Sacramento's quote about the huge PTSD effects of War.

But this is similar to someone telling me that their religious faith sustains them, even though I am a confirmed atheist and regard such faith as an inability to emerge from childish thinking. It is absurd and actually cruel to argue with the intention of undermining and hence depriving that believer of whatever psychological assurance and comfort such a faith provides.

However, when I encounter those who patronize us when we are unable achieve their vaunted state of habituation I am reminded of that great passage in "The Great Gatsby":

"In my younger and more vulnerable years my father gave me some advice that I've been turning over in my mind ever since. "Whenever you feel like criticizing anyone" he told me, "just remember that all the people in this world haven't had the advantages that you've had."

 

[Greg Sacramento]

Jazzer and self are good friends and have been for several years.
Sometimes we talk several times a day.

He understands that I have conditions and pain and I understand that he has conditions.
I understand the how and why of my physical problems and pain and Dave is getting an understanding to his situations.

When I had only had very severe hearing loss and tinnitus as loud as a fire alarm, I managed not to think about it after two years.

Now with severe pain of mouth and entire body from head to toe, it's just too severe on top of physical somatic and pulsatile tinnitus. Plus, I'm almost blind.

There's no reasoning that makes any difference to me now.

 

[TracyJS]

There is no right way or wrong way to be in pain...

It doesn't seem to me that Greg was disapproving of others who may find meaning, value, solace, or hope in the teachings of Tolle.

I think he was stating that he heard Tolle say that no matter what kind of pain, injury, or suffering one experiences, one should still be able to be happy and joyous. Simply: It is the individual in pain who is making themselves unhappy. Therein we find the objection.

That's like saying, "hey someone is sticking a hot poker in your eye repeatedly, but if you are unhappy, it's your fault. You are failing mentally by not moving to acceptance or being able to change your mindset."

I can't stress this enough: I am not saying that anyone on this forum is saying that or has said that. I'm simply responding to what Greg states he heard Tolle say.

Barbara Ehrenreich had cancer and luckily recovered. But, during the experience she noticed that others, and society generally, expected her to be positive, and develop a zen like approach to what was happening to her. Become a fierce positivity warrior: join the "cult of positivity" if you will. But, that wasn't how she felt, and she made the astute observation that there was a general and definite societal expectation that she identify that way.

We often can be uncomfortable with the pain of others. And we can place a heavy burden on those who are suffering by defining their experience of pain as more in their control than it is. Sometimes making the best of the situation you've been handed is just trying to hold on one moment at a time. And acceptance of your thoughts and feelings regardless if those thoughts and feelings are defined as "negative" or "dark". And sometimes knowing when enough is enough is not giving up, but showing tremendous courage to actually face "what is".

But, everyone has their own strategies in life to cope with the the various traumas of living. And that is ok.

I posted that quote because I like the idea of existential courage far more than positivity or acceptance.

It takes courage to climb into each day with severe pain of any kind. And for those who might not be able to, there is no lack of courage or ignominy. There is no failure. There is only humanity.

 

[Jazzer]

There is no right way or wrong way to be in pain...

It doesn't seem to me that Greg was disapproving of others who may find meaning, value, solace, or hope in the teachings of Tolle.

I think he was stating that he heard Tolle say that no matter what kind of pain, injury, or suffering one experiences, one should still be able to be happy and joyous. Simply: It is the individual in pain who is making themselves unhappy. Therein we find the objection.

That's like saying, "hey someone is sticking a hot poker in your eye repeatedly, but if you are unhappy, it's your fault. You are failing mentally by not moving to acceptance or being able to change your mindset."

I can't stress this enough: I am not saying that anyone on this forum is saying that or has said that. I'm simply responding to what Greg states he heard Tolle say.

Barbara Ehrenreich had cancer and luckily recovered. But, during the experience she noticed that others, and society generally, expected her to be positive, and develop a zen like approach to what was happening to her. Become a fierce positivity warrior: join the "cult of positivity" if you will. But, that wasn't how she felt, and she made the astute observation that there was a general and definite societal expectation that she identify that way.

We often can be uncomfortable with the pain of others. And we can place a heavy burden on those who are suffering by defining their experience of pain as more in their control than it is. Sometimes making the best of the situation you've been handed is just trying to hold on one moment at a time. And acceptance of your thoughts and feelings regardless if those thoughts and feelings are defined as "negative" or "dark". And sometimes knowing when enough is enough is not giving up, but showing tremendous courage to actually face "what is".

But, everyone has their own strategies in life to cope with the the various traumas of living. And that is ok.

I posted that quote because I like the idea of existential courage far more than positivity or acceptance.

It takes courage to climb into each day with severe pain of any kind. And for those who might not be able to, there is no lack of courage or ignominy. There is no failure. There is only humanity.

Tracy - I agree with every word.

I am not one of the new age 'positivity' disciples at all. Much of what Eckhart Tolle says I would kick straight out the door. His ideas on physical pain, and physical noise particularly.

No wonder he has made many enemies.

I barely cope with everything that I have now, and they are deteriorating conditions so will undoubtedly get worse.

I sincerely hope I go before that time.

Greg has so much on his plate and I feel for him greatly - I always have and I always will.

I apologise Greg if I upset you.

I know that I don't always express myself the best way.
On a physical pain level Eckhart Tolle is quite wrong.

With regard to the causes of mental illness, which I have suffered from life long due to near total maternal neglect and abuse, he makes more sense.
Even there I feel he has expounded on the original views of others.

My only point of deviation is that I personally do not wish to 'throw the baby out with the bath water.'

I just hope I am making some kind of sense here.

 

[emmalee]

There is no right way or wrong way to be in pain...

It doesn't seem to me that Greg was disapproving of others who may find meaning, value, solace, or hope in the teachings of Tolle.

I think he was stating that he heard Tolle say that no matter what kind of pain, injury, or suffering one experiences, one should still be able to be happy and joyous. Simply: It is the individual in pain who is making themselves unhappy. Therein we find the objection.

That's like saying, "hey someone is sticking a hot poker in your eye repeatedly, but if you are unhappy, it's your fault. You are failing mentally by not moving to acceptance or being able to change your mindset."

I can't stress this enough: I am not saying that anyone on this forum is saying that or has said that. I'm simply responding to what Greg states he heard Tolle say.

Barbara Ehrenreich had cancer and luckily recovered. But, during the experience she noticed that others, and society generally, expected her to be positive, and develop a zen like approach to what was happening to her. Become a fierce positivity warrior: join the "cult of positivity" if you will. But, that wasn't how she felt, and she made the astute observation that there was a general and definite societal expectation that she identify that way.

We often can be uncomfortable with the pain of others. And we can place a heavy burden on those who are suffering by defining their experience of pain as more in their control than it is. Sometimes making the best of the situation you've been handed is just trying to hold on one moment at a time. And acceptance of your thoughts and feelings regardless if those thoughts and feelings are defined as "negative" or "dark". And sometimes knowing when enough is enough is not giving up, but showing tremendous courage to actually face "what is".

But, everyone has their own strategies in life to cope with the the various traumas of living. And that is ok.

I posted that quote because I like the idea of existential courage far more than positivity or acceptance.

It takes courage to climb into each day with severe pain of any kind. And for those who might not be able to, there is no lack of courage or ignominy. There is no failure. There is only humanity.

Excellent post, Tracy. You are correct, there is only humanity.

 

[emmalee]

There's no reasoning that makes any difference to me now.

This is completely understandable, Greg.

 

[emmalee]

"In my younger and more vulnerable years my father gave me some advice that I've been turning over in my mind ever since. "Whenever you feel like criticizing anyone" he told me, "just remember that all the people in this world haven't had the advantages that you've had."

So very true, Dave.

 

[Jazzer]

Tolle's greatest gaff:

"ACCEPT EACH MOMENT AS IF YOU HAD CHOSEN IT!!!"

In my case:
* Lifelong mental illness to varying degrees
* Severe tinnitus rendering me redundant
* Parkinson's disease
* The death of my wonderful wife

What an insult to my intelligence, and an affront to my emotional sensitivity.

 

[emmalee]

He does however state that resistance to the
'is-ness' of what is, is futile.

There is no point in resisting the actuality of a condition.

I positively 'hate' my conditions.

But I somehow have to accept the reality of them because they are there.

I have to calm down if at all possible.

This is all quite true, Dave.

I feel that you need not discount his philosophy/words, especially if they help you in any way at all. His book is very good, again, in my opinion (only not so humble this time.) I have watched all his videos and I find them inspiring, to each their own, once again.

Please do not let others opinions change how you feel, unless you have actually changed your mind. If this is the case, then please just disregard this post. I will not be the least bit offended.

 

[DaveFromChicago]

To Tracy JS:

Very well defined assessment of Barbara Erhrenreich's reaction to all of the cheerleaders who regarded breast cancer as "one of the best things that's ever happened to me", "a valuable opportunity to discover more about myself", "a lucky membership into a sisterhood communitarian movement", etc.

I have been a close, ardent follower of hers ever since she began publishing; I saw her at our local Independent Bookstore when she was on tour for her "Nickel-and-Dimed" book (and she was gracious enough to have a question-and-answer session afterwards).

In subsequent interviews and writings about her breast cancer, she was frankly appalled by the abovementioned weirdly sugarcoated, denial-of reality interpretations described above.

I recalled that the power of Nickel-and-Dimed came from her pitiless depiction of life as a minimum wage earner (and, like breast cancer, she steadfastly refused to neutralize such an awful existence with inane sentimentality).

I also recall that her unappeasable dread was only reduced when her chemotherapy was successful.

I can only imagine the direction she would have taken if she were afflicted with severe tinnitus (but this is such an awful condition that it seems inappropriate to even theoretically assign this to anyone).

I frankly, however, cannot blame such wildly optimistic departures from reality as she reported seeing on Breast Cancer Support Sites; like tinnitus, this as well is an emotional earthquake that demolishes any assumption of security.

I suppose from that standpoint we should be more charitable towards the new posters who not only ballyhoo but claim to be glad they got tinnitus.

I regard this as idiotic, but the only truly germane consideration is whether it psychologically supports anyone having such a point of view.

Since there is no treatment for this, each of us must of necessity take an utterly individual, unconditionally ends-justify-the-means-approach in finding what will avail us (and even to the smallest degree, even if it sounds baseless to others).

Incidentally, after 13 years of posting on You Tube, Julian Cowan Hill has reached a new tier of frightening detachment from reality by recommending that you talk to tinnitus as a friend, and actually say "thank you, tinnitus" when you have a major spike. He also has a category on his chart for defining it as a spiritual guide and mentor.

In one of his most popular postings I notified him that Dr. Shore's findings about the hyperactivity of the fusiform cells in the Dorsal Cochlear Nuclei obviated and rendered obsolete his flight-or-fight explanations, and he deleted my notation.

He also stated that eye floaters were caused by stress, and when I notified him that my opthamologist said that they were particles that broke off from the inner eyeball wall, he deleted this as well.

Remember David Brent from the UK Office series? JCH is the David Brent of Tinnitus Commentary.

 

[Jazzer]

This is all quite true, Dave.

I feel that you need not discount his philosophy/words, especially if they help you in any way at all. His book is very good, again, in my opinion (only not so humble this time.) I have watched all his videos and I find them inspiring, to each their own, once again.

Please do not let others opinions change how you feel, unless you have actually changed your mind. If this is the case, then please just disregard this post. I will not be the least bit offended.

Emmalee, I never want to cause anybody any pain. If you've ever been deeply hurt yourself then you actually dread the idea of hurting others.

But of course we all do it inadvertently at times. It's unavoidable.

But we should always defend our own genuine beliefs. They are not up for grabs.

 

[emmalee]

Emmalee, I never want to cause anybody any pain. If you've ever been deeply hurt yourself then you actually dread the idea of hurting others.

But of course we all do it inadvertently at times. It's unavoidable.

But we should always defend our own genuine beliefs. They are not up for grabs.

Yes, we should defend out own genuine beliefs.

This topic is a good one and I feel that you started it because it has helped you a great deal. Wanting to share this with the other Tinnitus Talk members is admirable. If it is not another's "cup of tea" then this is okay, too.

I think open and honest feedback is healthy, as long as it is respectful and knowledge based. We can only learn from such discussions. Differing opinions are always refreshing, as long as we are not trying to convince another that what they believe is wrong.

Sorry if I appear pushy, it's just that I truly believe that there is a need for this topic on the forum.