Elon Musk’s Neuralink Looking to Treat Tinnitus

[ThomasF]

I thought the poor monkeys would have sunk this endeavor.

 

[AfroSnowman]

I thought the poor monkeys would have sunk this endeavor.

I thought that story had been debunked.

 

[Tasty]

I thought that story had been debunked.

Yep, it has been debunked, there were "no dead monkeys" lol.

That is misinformation.

 

[Brian Newman]

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Ahhhh that was funny.

 

[ThomasF]

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I showed my Mom that fire ass meme and it showed up in her Nursing group on Facebook. Gotta love how fast memes travel.

 

[sakrt]

Yep, it has been debunked, there were "no dead monkeys" lol.

That is misinformation.

This is inaccurate. Appears inquiries into this are coming to light.

Ahhhh that was funny.

Same time, a whole lotta truth to it in not a good way in my book.

 

[Gb3]

Yep, it has been debunked, there were "no dead monkeys" lol.

That is misinformation.

Ya it was clearly some left wing political attack.

 

[Brian Newman]

This is inaccurate. Appears inquiries into this are coming to light.

Same time, a whole lotta truth to it in not a good way in my book.

Yeah before I got severe noxacusis, I was like I'm never getting a brain chip. Now I'm praying to get one, funny how things change. Hopefully I don't get hacked

 

[Tasty]

This is inaccurate. Appears inquiries into this are coming to light.

Same time, a whole lotta truth to it in not a good way in my book.

You got no proof, so.

 

[ThomasF]

Yeah before I got severe noxacusis, I was like I'm never getting a brain chip. Now I'm praying to get one, funny how things change. Hopefully I don't get hacked

Not a big fan of Rick Astley I see?

 

[beefling]

Just shove that chip in me brain, I don't care if the thought police know what I'm thinking.

 

[Brian Newman]

Not a big fan of Rick Astley I see?

When I see him I just think of the episode of South Park lol where Gerald is a troll and is in Denmark.

 

[Damocles]

I thought the poor monkeys would have sunk this endeavor.

I thought that story had been debunked.

Yep, it has been debunked,

That is misinformation.

This is inaccurate. Appears inquiries into this are coming to light.

You got no proof, so.

Ya it was clearly some left wing political attack.

Guys, please. I get you all want this to work, but when we share information, could we please back it up with some actual evidence; lest the Research News section become something akin to a forum debating "which 9th gen console was best", or a 5 year olds' conference regarding "whose dad would win in a fight" (both tournament and/or battle royale style).

there were "no dead monkeys" lol

There were 15 dead macaque monkeys out of the 23 involved in the experiments, and this isn't up for debate, because Neuralink confirmed this themselves.

What is up for debate, and what the case the PCRM is bringing against Neuralink is concerning: is if they did everything they possibly could to minimize the suffering of those 23 monkeys during said tests.

This is a serious allegation by the PCRM that is actually being reviewed by the US Department of Agriculture right now, so how any of you have come to the conclusion it's been "debunked", I'm not sure, but I'd be willing to look at anything that has given you that idea, should you provide it.

As I said above, I am sympathetic to the desires of people for treatments like this to work without a hitch, but not to the extent that I'll accept the denial of facts or fabling.

Also, just to make clear, my objection here is not borne of some moralistic sense of justice for the denial of a story of about a group of mistreated macaque monkeys, but for the reality that at some stage, there will be people on here who are going to have to make their minds up as to whether they want to be involved in the human trials of this technology or not. And I sure as f*ck would want to know, if I was offered to take part in a trial of a drug that might reduce my tinnitus to almost nothing, that 65% of the rats that were given it before me had exploded or some sh*t...

 

[ZFire]

but for the reality that at some stage, there will be people on here who are going to have to make their minds up as to whether they want to be involved in the human trials of this technology or not. And I sure as f*ck would want to know, if I was offered to take part in a trial of a drug that might reduce my tinnitus to almost nothing, that 65% of the rats that were given it before me had exploded or some sh*t....

Unfortunately, I think you've already hinted on what their next excuse will be to justify the cruel treatment of these monkeys. They'll essentially argue that in order to prevent any serious adverse effects and complications for when the human trials begin, these lab animals have to be subjected to extreme suffering to mitigate and minimize as much fallout as possible for the human trials. A human life is more valuable than another specie.

I'm already seeing it. A Musk fanboy I know told me that "Animal testing like that, while it sucks, is very common. Would you volunteer to have this stuff tested on you instead? It's a necessary evil. Neuralink is trying to push forward humanity by potentially helping people with disabilities". Well... you can say I was taken aback by the statement. I'm not sure whether the claim "animal testing like that is a common thing" is true, but it still doesn't change the fact that there are ethical guidelines for using animals in research. And there's evidence that protocols were violated as you pointed out.

I will say though, there's a cult like following for Elon Musk. In their eyes, the man can't do no wrong.

 

[ThomasF]

I'd prefer the money going toward hair cell regeneration rather than Neuralink.

 

[Mentos]

I'd prefer the money going toward hair cell regeneration rather than Neuralink.

Neuralink is a private commercial project with no public funding, one does not exclude another.

 

[Tasty]

I'd prefer the money going toward hair cell regeneration rather than Neuralink.

The point is actually that tinnitus is created in the brain, not in the ear. There are dozens of causes for tinnitus that doesn't include hair cell damage. Sound gets created in the brain, not in the ear, the ear is a sort of relay station that is just responsible for transmitting it to the brain where it gets perceived as sound.

Tinnitus can be modulated and suppressed with surgical neuromodulation e.g., Deep Brain Stimulation (DBS).

From ClinicalTrials.gov: Deep Brain Stimulation for Tinnitus:

"In high-frequency deep brain stimulation (DBS) a reversible lesion-like effect is mimicked. From findings in Parkinson's disease patients who also had tinnitus and were treated with DBS, it is known that stimulation can alter or even completely diminish perception of tinnitus."

And tinnitus is mainly a neurological disorder.

Secondly, we don't even know if reversing hearing loss reverses neuroplasticity changes within the brain.

Tinnitus is a network disorder of different brain areas, including the thalamus, the salience network, the limbic system, the main association cortex areas A1/A2 and so on, it's not just the ear, my tinnitus appeared without any hearing loss and therefore it would be quite useless for a lot of individuals dealing with tinnitus that has apparently other causes.

But it's kind of bad that tinnitus is always recognized as a ear rather than a brain disorder, yet it originates within the brain lol, tinnitus is nothing else than neuron firing/electrical activity in the brain

Neuralink is the right direction if we really want to cure/eliminate tinnitus instead of hair cell regeneration.

I suggest Prof. Dirk de Ridder's video about his experience as a neurosurgeon in tinnitus:

 

[Jerad]

I think some valid points and theories are being raised here.

One does wonder: once the brain gets f'd up, is there a way to undo it by fixing the thing that f'd it up to begin with?

If hair cells or synapses are the cause of one's tinnitus, will fixing them alleviate the phantom noises, or will the brain still insist on holding on to them? Using Elon's technology, it shouldn't matter either way, right? Because it's not fixing the original problem, but rather, providing the necessary stimulation to address it.

It's possible that a more simplistic approach like that might yield better results all around, or generate a treatment that's more broad for multitudes of people.

I've always envisioned that a successful tinnitus treatment wouldn't fix the original problem but would, rather, sidestep it. Is that the same logic with DBS for Parkinson's? They're not fixing it, but sidestepping to provide relief via stimulation? I dunno — someone here might. But it's possible that a lot of disorders and illnesses are treated this way — not in fixing the root causes, but finding ways around them. It's a way to outsmart a broken body or organ, right?

 

[Damocles]

The point is actually that tinnitus is created in the brain, not in the ear.

There are dozens of causes for tinnitus that doesn't include hair cell damage. Sound gets created in the brain, not in the ear, the ear is a sort of relay station that is just responsible for transmitting it to the brain where it gets perceived as sound.

CVI, TBI, and Neurological Vision Loss | American Foundation for the Blind (afb.org)

Cortical visual impairment (CVI), and cerebral visual impairment (CVI), are terms often used to describe visual impairment that occurs because of injury to the brain, as are neurological vision loss, and vision loss due to traumatic brain injury (TBI).

Although vision or sight, as a sense, is primarily associated with the eyes, in reality, vision is the product of a complex system of which the eyes are only one part. The processing of visual information—the receipt of visual stimuli through the eyes, its interpretation by various brain centers, and its translation into perceptions of visual images, and the associations of those perceptions with concepts and language—has been estimated to involve as much as 40 percent of the brain.

Top Leading Causes of Blindness Around The Globe – OneSight

Of all the known causes associated with vision loss or blindness, uncorrected refractive error is the leading cause. Although restoring one's sight may be possible, a lack of prescription eyewear or surgical correction can lead to blindness.

The second largest cause of vision loss and the largest cause of blindness are cataracts. Cataracts refer to clouding of the normally clear lens of the eye. Currently, more than 100 million people experience vision loss from cataracts. Of these people, more than 17 million are blind and 83 million are experiencing vision impairment. Many of these people may be able to have their sight restored with cataract surgery.

Age-related macular degeneration, also known as AMD, is the third-largest cause of vision loss.

Secondly, we don't even know if reversing hearing loss reverses neuroplasticity changes within the brain.

But it's kind of bad that tinnitus is always recognized as a ear rather than a brain disorder, yet it originates within the brain lol, tinnitus is nothing else than neuron firing/electrical activity in the brain

 

[JackSparrow]

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CVI, TBI, and Neurological Vision Loss | American Foundation for the Blind (afb.org)

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Top Leading Causes of Blindness Around The Globe – OneSight

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Regardless of what "causes" it, ALL experiences can be traced back to some neural signal in the brain. This includes sight, hearing, touch, taste, and smell. Sam Harris among many other neuroscientists make this point very frequently. So if we are trying to answer the question of whether or not Neuralink has any hope of solving tinnitus, your point is rather irrelevant.

If you have a knife in your hand, sure, obviously you want to remove the knife. But if removing the knife does not remove all pain, a device such as Neurolink could, in theory, block the pain signals in the brain effectively removing the perception of pain in that area. This is obviously oversimplified, and not an exact scenario that Neuralink would be used for, but you get the point

 

[Sam Marksmen]

Testing on humans within a year! I doubt it but still!

For anyone else making this claim I would totally agree.

But if someone had told you a few years back that he could make self-landing rockets and all the crazy things he makes, well no one would have believed that.

That's totally what I thought when I heard that claim, then I was like, no wait, that's Elon Musk.

 

[Damocles]

Regardless of what "causes" it, ALL experiences can be traced back to some neural signal in the brain. This includes sight, hearing, touch, taste, and smell. Sam Harris among many other neuroscientists make this point very frequently. So if we are trying to answer the question of whether or not Neuralink has any hope of solving tinnitus, your point is rather irrelevant.

If you have a knife in your hand, sure, obviously you want to remove the knife. But if removing the knife does not remove all pain, a device such as Neurolink could, in theory, block the pain signals in the brain effectively removing the perception of pain in that area. This is obviously oversimplified, and not an exact scenario that Neuralink would be used for, but you get the point

@Tasty: *Makes absolute statement, that tinnitus is a brain (not an ear) problem*

@Damocles: *Quashes absolute statement by exhibiting all problems can be traced back to the brain*

@JackSparrow (to @Damocles): Actually, I think you'll find all problems can be traced back to the brain.

Also @JackSparrow (to @Damocles): and your point about Neuralink working for tinnitus is irrelevant.

@Damocles: *has literally never made any statement on whether Neuralink might work for tinnitus*

 

[Padraigh Griffin]

I firmly believe that tinnitus will be solved by engineers rather than anyone involved in medicine.

No one can convince me that this is not just an electrical signalling problem. Even inflammation I believe causes disruptive electrical action in our brain.

Hence why I also think ion channels play a major role, not just in the DCN but in all tinnitus producing regions.

Sounds like a job for Neuralink/Blackrock/Synchron etc.

Please hurry up though.

 

[hopes]

What is the status of Neuralink? Are they waiting for FDA approval after the tests they did on chimps? Or do they need to do more trials on chimps before trying on humans?

 

[Nick47]

What is the status of Neuralink? Are they waiting for FDA approval after the tests they did on chimps? Or do they need to do more trials on chimps before trying on humans?

Nowhere near anything at all!

 

[SmallRonnie]

absolute statement, that tinnitus is a brain (not an ear) problem*

What is the status of Neuralink? Are they waiting for FDA approval after the tests they did on chimps? Or do they need to do more trials on chimps before trying on humans?

Elon just tweeted that they will give an update on the 31st of October (Halloween).

 

[chinup]

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CVI, TBI, and Neurological Vision Loss | American Foundation for the Blind (afb.org)

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Top Leading Causes of Blindness Around The Globe – OneSight

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>comparing phantom sounds to a knife in the hand instead of phantom pains in the hand after the knife was removed years ago

 

[JackSparrow]

>comparing phantom sounds to a knife in the hand instead of phantom pains in the hand after the knife was removed years ago

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This was exactly my point, it's a very poor analogy.

 

[Damocles]

>comparing phantom sounds to a knife in the hand instead of phantom pains in the hand after the knife was removed years ago

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Couldn't find a picture of phantom pains in a hand. My bad.

This was exactly my point, it's a very poor analogy.

It's like art, you either got it or you didn't.

Going by the "poor" analogy, I suppose you believe my theory is that all tinnitus sufferer's have a knife in the ear also.

 

[ZFire]

>comparing phantom sounds to a knife in the hand instead of phantom pains in the hand after the knife was removed years ago

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But I thought phantom pains only occur after people lose their limbs though. People experiencing pain in the arms or legs when they are no longer there (amputated). Phantom pain does eventually go away or decreases substantially for most people I hear too...