Evolution vs Creation and So Forth

[Chinmoku]

Naturally, as coming myself from a Protestant background, praying to the dead is very alien to may practice. That being said, the only time I witnessed people claiming a miracle was at an Orthodox church I was visiting. An older man was opened up to remove stomach cancer and the cancer was gone, and I'm sure you're aware that they have the same beliefs as the Roman church regarding praying to the dead, saints, etc. Really makes me wonder.

Yes there are interesting differences, including the devotion to the Virgin Mary.

 

[MattS]

I am a rationalist, and an evidence-based scientist through and through. Which means I prefer pure agnosticism here. Essentially, I abstain from the vote.

Why? Well, let's consider:

Is there a God? Who knows, but there's certainly no proof to suggest that there is.

Is there no God? Who knows, but there's certainly no proof to suggest that there isn't.

Is the theory of evolution correct? Who knows. At the least, as @JohnAdams points out, there remain significant questions.

Is the theory of evolution incorrect? Who knows. Though certainly, as @JohnAdams points out, there remain significant questions.

Some people believe strongly in God. This is generally referred to as "faith" (defined by Webster's as 'belief without proof').

Some people believe strongly in no God. This is referred to as not having faith. However, since there is also no proof that God doesn't exist, this too constitutes faith.

Some believe whole-heartedly in evolution, but as this is just a theory, whole-hearted belief is, again, faith.

I, personally, have no such faith. Not for God. Not for no God. Not for anything. If there is proof, I will believe it. If there is not proof, I will wait for proof.

Why ever believe whole-heartedly in anything that has no proof?

 

[JohnAdams]

Is there a God? Who knows, but there's certainly no proof to suggest that there is.

Considering that "proof" is almost strictly relegated to the world of maths, perhaps that's not the right thing to seek after. What about evidence? Is there not any evidence that there exists a God?

 

[JohnAdams]

In fact some of the saints get the stigmata, which are very painful. St Paul asked God to remove his thorn of the flesh (could have been tinnitus) but God refused.

I think it was his eyesight.
Galatians 6:10-12 King James Version (KJV)
10 As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.

11 Ye see how large a letter I have written unto you with mine own hand.

12 As many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised; only lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ.

 

[MattS]

Considering that "proof" is almost strictly relegated to the world of maths, perhaps that's not the right thing to seek after. What about evidence? Is there not any evidence that there exists a God?

I'd say no.

There are questions; but there is no evidence that I'm aware of. Certainly not enough for more to believe in without reservation.

 

[JohnAdams]

There are questions; but there is no evidence that I'm aware of.

Have you looked?

 

[Dizzyhead888]

I'd say no.

There are questions; but there is no evidence that I'm aware of. Certainly not enough for more to believe in without reservation.

Read my long post in this thread. This is the closest thing to an evidence.

 

[MattS]

Have you looked?

Likely not to your satisfaction.

But in my defense, my position is only to abstain, which seems appropriate even in the case that I only have incomplete information.

 

[MattS]

Read my long post in this thread. This is the closest thing to an evidence.

Thanks Dizzy - I read your post, but haven't yet gotten to the Economist article. Am under a deadline tonight, so may have to hold off till tomorrow. I will read it though, and respond back.

 

[JohnAdams]

Likely not to your satisfaction.

It's not about my satisfaction. That's irrelevant. Have you looked into it to your satisfaction? That's what matters.

 

[Elmer B Fuddled]

Ahhh hell lads the chimp theory and humans. Well the only difference is our thumb and forefinger

 

[Jazzer]

Nobody 'knows' whether god exists.
Many people believe - in faith - that he/she does.
They have no proof.

An agnostic accepts that 'not knowing' is entirely unavoidable.

Many agnostics have sought 'god' as I have, and got nowhere.
There is no point of contact.

Believers frequently tell me that they have 'a personal relationship with the living God.'

Relationship depends on dialogue.
Where there is no response, there is no dialogue, and there can be no relationship.
Prayer is not dialogue - but monologue.

As we cannot 'know' we should be happy 'not knowing.'
We have no responsibility - we did not design the situation, and should live fearlessly.
Many people do fear 'judgement' largely as a result of childhood indoctrination, which should be designated a criminal offence.

 

[Chinmoku]

Even science needs faith. The first act of faith in science is that you are not in a solipsistic universe and you believe that you are perceiving an objective reality. There is no way to disprove solipsism, it's an act of faith, the first act of faith perhaps when you do science. Then there is the scandalous effectiveness of mathematics (e.g. Wigner's talk). Why is mathematics so effective in describing laws like general relativity or quantum theory? Can mathematics be explained simply in evolutionary terms? I very much doubt it.

 

[JohnAdams]

Nobody 'knows' whether god exists.
Many people believe - in faith - that he/she does.
They have no proof.

An agnostic accepts that 'not knowing' is entirely unavoidable.

Many agnostics have sought 'god' as I have, and got nowhere.
There is no point of contact.

Believers frequently tell me that they have 'a personal relationship with the living God.'

Relationship depends on dialogue.
Where there is no response, there is no dialogue, and there can be no relationship.
Prayer is not dialogue - but monologue.

As we cannot 'know' we should be happy 'not knowing.'
We have no responsibility - we did not design the situation, and should live fearlessly.
Many people do fear 'judgement' largely as a result of childhood indoctrination, which should be designated a criminal offence.

What does that have to do with evolution vs creation?

 

[Jazzer]

Oh I'm sorry - I assumed that belief in creation would depend on belief in god.
If god does not exist then neither does creation.

You were raising doubts about the possibility of evolution, and I was raising doubts about the possibility of creation.

 

[Chinmoku]

Read my long post in this thread. This is the closest thing to an evidence.

Yes, the bureau medicale in Lourdes has become so strict that in the last years only very few miracles have been accepted, but those few are clear. St Charbel has 26000 healing feats on record, many well documented. Even going conservative and accepting only 1% as authentic (I think most are authentic actually) you get 260 inexplicable healing feats impossible for current science. Indeed, the closest thing to evidence we have.