Extremely Reactive Tinnitus and Listening to Music

[Samuel Greene]

Just quickly, this is such a great thread so far... Let's keep it going

Even so, I always get really anxious when it comes to exposing myself to music.

I worry we may be thread-jacking another sean's post as he cannot even listen to music for a short time without issues and pain. He is in a much worse state that I am. Maybe a thread for musicians / engineers / composers, if there isn't already one? I'm new here, so not sure on the etiquette.

I really identify with your last post. I feel like I don't want to do anything to make it worse, so not working on music is safe. However, is it really causing it to worsen? I got a few 'chirps' in my left ear the other day, which is out of the ordinary. I can deal with static tone ringing, but getting rhythmic sounds starts to freak me out and makes me really start to doubt what I am doing. But again, is it just due to focusing on it? It's tricky. I have such a love for making music and it has really engaged me over the few months. I'm afraid to lose that again.

 

[HeavyMantra]

I would be interested in hearing how everybody in the thread got tinnitus in the first place.

I think I got it from using Etymotic in-ear headphones for a decade. I never listened very loud. Maybe 70 db. I think the design of the headphone is the problem. The years leading up to my tinnitus I went to some shows with earplugs and did other noisy music things like playing a gong. I noticed mild tinnitus during this time but it went away after a few months. Then, it came back worse from the headphone incident and it truly seems like I really managed to damage something quite badly.

I think the occlusion effect from the headphones while singing and the sound from the headphones themselves was what did me in. I sang very loudly. I probably got some damage the first night that could have healed, but then I went back in the next day and knocked those nerves up pretty good...

 

[HeavyMantra]

I worry we may be thread-jacking another sean's post as he cannot even listen to music for a short time without issues and pain. He is in a much worse state that I am. Maybe a thread for musicians / engineers / composers, if there isn't already one? I'm new here, so not sure on the etiquette.

You may be right. That's considerate. Let us know if this is the case @another sean

It's clear that Sean knows his audio gear though and that's what I find interesting about this thread, we all know a bit about these things and may come up with some good ideas together

 

[Samuel Greene]

I would be interested in hearing how everybody in the thread got tinnitus in the first place.

I think I got it from using Etymotic in-ear headphones for a decade.

I updated my profile with all the possible causes. My first major issue was a 'friend' tossing a string of small firecrackers under my lawn chair. I was an amateur audio engineer/mixer for a few years. My terrible mixes must have done it for me.

 

[Lazyboy]

I would be interested in hearing how everybody in the thread got tinnitus in the first place.

I got mine nice and simple - playing guitar with a young band in a rehearsal studio who were going at full tilt for hours. I hadn't been in a rehearsal studio for 10 years previous to that had forgotten how loud it can get. I was unprepared and my ears were regretfully unprotected. I have to say the rehearsal was fun but I left with both ears ringing & the ringing in the right ear stayed from then to now. Hyperacusis kicked in Two days after the incident. Thankfully my right ear seems ok. The left ear I would consider switching off if the T & H went with it!

I agree that a lot of us seem to be in the same boat in this thread - musicians with noise induced reactive tinnitus?
Sean and Heavys hope that by discussion we may arrive at a few clues that could allow us to listen to music again without fewer problems is a good one.

In the spirit of this & given a few of us seem to be operating under the noise induced Tinnitus umbrella here are a few thoughts. please note they are thoughts not facts:


The act of concentrating hard on listening to music (when composing/playing music) may be putting extra strain on our slightly damaged auditory pathway. This may exacerbate our tinnitus and causes it to complain/rise for a period of time?

It's possible the frequency(s) of our tinnitus are the same frequency we have damaged through noise trauma. Most tinnitus frequency's are present in most music so it's possible we are exacerbating our individual tinnitus trigger frequency by listening to music?

The music/noise caused our problem so we are hard wired to be wary of music/noise like we would be with anything else that caused us to suffer. Do we now associate music as a potential threat which causes tinnitus to rise when exposed to the threat?

 

[Jeebs]

@Samuel Greene - I hope you did not see my last reply as an offence. Your advice on quieter music production gear sounds good to me for people who do not experience "reactive tinnitus" or hyperacusis-related tinnitus spikes (actually, I do not care much for the dispute over the term - we all know what people mean by it). Perhaps a seperate thread would be a great idea and as an avid audio enthusiast I would be delighted to join in the discussion as well.

 

[Samuel Greene]

@Jeebs , I probably came off a bit defensive . Just wanted to explain why I brought up the small speaker suggestion.

 

[Samuel Greene]

Picked up a cheap spl meter today. Probably should have done that years ago. Looks like I monitor around 60-75 most of the time. Will sometimes turn up to 80-85 for a segment or a run through. Reworked my speaker setup for better triangulation. Also think I have a sinus infection that is causing this latest flare up. Have headache, drip down the throat and ears feel full and popping. Hopefully this will pass soon.

@Lazyboy - yes your last comment is a question I wonder. Is the sound ACTUALLY causing it at this point. I am not exposing myself to dangerous levels of sound, so should I just press on? That's my plan for now.

 

[another sean]

@another sean
If it is not to intrusive of me to ask: How does your Tinnitus behave exactly? Is it very specific frequencies that set you off which you can also pinpoint, a somewhat broader range of frequencies, or any kind of synthetic loudness from a speaker?

It just gets louder within about 30 seconds if I start hearing sounds through a speaker. But it's not only speakers, also outside noise. But the difference is the outside noise has to be loud to affect me. Speakers, no matter how low, will always affect me. I got tinnitus after getting into listening to music with high end headphone. Before that I was always careful with my hearing. I wore ear plugs to every concert. I would stuff tissue in my ears at movies if it seemed too loud. So when I got into listening to music with headphones, it was like night a day. The best music experience I've ever had. I would keep them on all day whenever at my desk. Even when music wasn't playing because they reduced the noise around me. So they provided peace and quiet as well as a musical experience as deep as the ocean. I was very cautious to not play them too loud. I used a SPL meter and they measured around 70dB. I thought I would be safe no matter what. What people and doctors never tell you is that its not only the loudness that can cause damage, but also the duration. So even listening to something at 30dB can give you tinntius if you listen to it long enough. Well 2 weeks after listening to NIN Ghosts on repeat, the hissing in my ears began. So after misinformation and squandered opportunities from incompetent ENTs and Audiologists, it's a now a full blown orchestra of boiling tea kettles.

If I can just figure out how to play music from a speaker that sits within the same frequency as human speech, it would change my life in every way possible because human speech is totally fine. Not being able to use a telephone has really limited my job options. And the loss of music... well you already know. I think its more than just EQ. I think there is digital noise in the electricity as well. My theory is I was damaging my hearing even when I was wearing headphones with no music because my ears were still picking up the the digital noise from the headphone jack. My tinnitus spikes even if I'm next to a TV larger than 40" inches turned on with no sound. I think my ears are picking up digital noise from the panel. I don't think its RF because it doesn't happen with electric ovens.
The record player and paper cone is not a perfect solution either because even though it eliminates the digital noise, i still cant EQ it and cut out the highs from the music itself. I need to cut the highs and all digital noise. Not sure if it's possible unless I spend thousands on the highest quality electrical outlet filter, which I did try one time for the TV at about $700, but didn't help, and a high end DAC and high end EQ/Pass filter.
The least troubling way to hear music still is playing my acoustic guitar with my fingers. No digital noise and my fingers, not nails, keeps the frequencies low and soft. I have to learn sheet music of new albums if I want to hear them.

Anyways, I don't consider you guys hijacking the thread. This is a good thread for others in the future who have issues or questions about listening to music. Not everyone is as bad off as I am when it comes to music and you guys are widening the scope. It's a good thing.

 

[Jeebs]

@another sean - I'm sorry to hear all of that. You just seemed to have the worst of luck with your onset of T. I'm not sure if your experience is really related to digital noise but I suppose everything is possible. I can still listen to music reasonably well although I seem to develope some reactivity to sound as well and the quality of the source most certainly has an effect on it. The built-in speakers in my tablet feel vastly worse than my fairly high quality surround system with column speakers. T is still a mystery for me.

PS: You have outstanding taste in music.

 

[Violetdusk]

@another sean Yes I have got severe reactive tinnitus from a concert in 2005. Made much worse playing electric guitar with a friend in 2018 (I wore earplugs, made no difference). That last event also brought bad hyperacusis too so sounds in the night wake me. Both conditions are a nightmare. I need earplugs a lot, but when I wear them I hear the intrusive already screaming tinnitus 10 times louder. How are you able to play acoustic guitar still? They are loud... I had to sell mine as it was unplayable. Even playing my electric guitar now without the amp (which I sold) bothers my ears and causes them to spike unless I play softly. I've lost my interest in music because of what it's done to me. I was so into so many bands and albums before... it's just difficult to listen to now.

 

[another sean]

3 things help when playing an acoustic. One is that I use old soft string strings. As they age, they form a patina and they become less brite. And soft ones so you don't have to strum as hard. I also only strum with the side of my thumb just lightly grazing the strings, i don't finger pick. strumming with just the side of your thumb makes upstrokes challenging but it's better than nothing. Here's a short demonstration for you:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ew76nyjq2vo718y/P1022683.mp4?dl=0

I measured the sound levels and it peaks at 50 dB when about 6 inches away from the sound port. I still get a very little spike after 1 song so I limit myself to 1-2 songs a day, but again, it's better than nothing.

I kept my electric for old times sake but yeah, won't be able to play it again.

I know it's tough after being into a lot of bands. Especially when they come out with a new album and you can't listen to it. That's the worst. There are some I still buy the box set for even though I can only look at it. I refuse to break up my Radiohead collection and a few others. That's why get sheet music/tablature for new songs so i can get some idea of how it sounds and it's fun to learn new songs you have now idea how it's supposed to sound. Makes things interesting. I'll give my ampless electric a try. Thanks for the idea. You might wanna try listening to vinyl with a paper cone. You can really make out the song well. Just roll up one side till it's like a needle point and stick it through the hole at and angle in the arm so it slides down right next to where the needle used to be. I can post a pick if needed. I used to use tooth picks and tape but just paper works great, doesn't scratch the vinyl and doesn't need any tape.

 

[Lazyboy]

If I can just figure out how to play music from a speaker that sits within the same frequency as human speech

Hi Sean,

Don't know it this helps but I have just tried an equaliser app "Denon Audio" which is available for android and apple platform. It's allows you to make custom EQ curves for playback of audio on a phone or tablet. I have tried it and using the 10 band preset as a starting points it's easy to drag down problem frequencies so potentially you could cut frequencies that are outside human speech using the app. You need to buy one preset to get started £1.99. Too early to know if it helps me as I'm currently in spike mode.

 

[Lazyboy]

Just out of interest have any of you in this thread who are dealing with noise induced reactive tinnitus & hyperacusis ever use a pink or white noise in ear generator. If so did it help?

 

[Darryl Colebank]

@another sean
I was reading an old post of yours where you said your hyperacusis was on its way out and you contributed it to diet. How is your hyperacusis?

 

[another sean]

@another sean
I was reading an old post of yours where you said your hyperacusis was on its way out and you contributed it to diet. How is your hyperacusis?

I was doing great but then I dropped a pot in the kitchen last week and it feels like it was 2 years ago, really sensitive. my hope is it will calm back down in a couple of weeks. In the past I've had spikes resolve after a few weeks.

 

[HeavyMantra]

Just out of interest have any of you in this thread who are dealing with noise induced reactive tinnitus & hyperacusis ever use a pink or white noise in ear generator. If so did it help?

I've tried them and didn't find it useful for my tinnitus, but if I had more than mild/intermittent hyperacusis I would try them and probably not listen to any music during that time. To me they feel similar to in-ear headphones but since they aren't sealed, I guess they should be less harmful

I think it's pretty well proven that pink noise and time can cure hyperacusis in many people.

 

[HeavyMantra]

What people and doctors never tell you is that its not only the loudness that can cause damage, but also the duration. So even listening to something at 30dB can give you tinntius if you listen to it long enough.

That would mean that the sound from my fridge, ventilation etc in my apartment could give people tinnitus. I don't think this is possible unless a person already has severe hyperacusis. Or maybe you're talking about headphones still?

Was it noise cancelling headphones that caused your problems?

Have you considered explaining your wish for a speaker with very limited frequency response to someone who builds speakers? Maybe you could have someone custom-build speakers for you or DIY

Similar to you, I was always very careful with my ears my whole life. But headphones at low volume for long durations did me in.

 

[another sean]

That would mean that the sound from my fridge, ventilation etc in my apartment could give people tinnitus. I don't think this is possible unless a person already has severe hyperacusis. Or maybe you're talking about headphones still?

Was it noise cancelling headphones that caused your problems?

Have you considered explaining your wish for a speaker with very limited frequency response to someone who builds speakers? Maybe you could have someone custom-build speakers for you or DIY

Similar to you, I was always very careful with my ears my whole life. But headphones at low volume for long durations did me in.

Yes, i was referring to headphones. Headphones are different from everything else giving off sound because they create a seal around your ear and the noise pressure cant escape and is trapped going right down you ear canal.

They were not noise canceling.

 

[HeavyMantra]

Yes, i was referring to headphones. Headphones are different from everything else giving off sound because they create a seal around your ear and the noise pressure cant escape and is trapped going right down you ear canal.

They were not noise canceling.

I read somewhere that the sound pressure from sealed, in-ear headphones is 1000 times greater than non-sealed ones. Seems like a bit of a large, round number but I really think it's not that far off.