Frequency Therapeutics — Hearing Loss Regeneration

[Pero1234]

View attachment 24235

Oh my, high frequency loss (above 13 kHz) is really located on the outer edge of the cochlea!

 

[85dB T]

I never understood what high and low frequency tinnitus meant... so would FX-322 only work for certain frequencies in tinnitus? I though it would eliminate all of them...?

Tinker Bell posted a diagram above showing the high and low frequency cells of the cochlea. The drug will more easily reach the wide opening of the cochlea where the high frequency cells are located (the low frequency hair cells are further into the narrowing tube of the cochlea). Hopefully I explained this clearly and correctly.

Edit: oops, already answered. Anyway it's good news, most tinnitus is high frequency screeching. Guess most is 8000 to 15,000 Hz?

 

[Striveon]

Low is bass sounds, high is like birds tweeting, @Tinker Bell posted a diagram of the cochlea. The opening is the high frequencies and the inner part of the spiral is low frequencies.

Imagine hitting all the keys of a piano from right to left, that goes from high to low. The FX-322 would seep into the cochlea and travel from high to low just like the piano example. Does that help?

I see what you mean, thank you for explaining! I get your view point, hopefully it goes all the way into the low frequencies!

 

[Striveon]

I only read that they use the already well established and known injection through the eardrum like the intratympanic steroid treatment for acute hearing loss. I don't know maybe the treatment might be "new" in some areas but what I heard from ENTs in middle EU it is very common in the US. In the EU I think most hospitals offer it. So ENTs who do this don't have to learn much about the treatment and it is done within seconds.

I think they can produce more cells based on the drug cocktail they created, that is duplicating existing supporting cells, that's the reason why they get more hair cells instead of using only the existing supporting cells.


The drug is a treatment for hearing loss not for tinnitus. It's just a theory that when you restore hearing, that it might mask or help to decrease tinnitus as well. You won't get an answer on tinnitus questions until they publish results with such information on it.

I don't know why many here talk about a "cure". It restores something that's what they say... people with hearing loss benefit from it. First of all it is a treatment for hearing loss patient to restore at least some of their hearing in not too strong damaged frequencies/areas, but you need much more than supporting cells. Based on other treatments that focus on supporting cells your cochlea can have different conditions (severe/profound) where the regeneration may not work. Flat epithelium or only Pillar and Deiter cells. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3637947/

I only talk about a cure in connection with hearing loss, when they can restore the initial state of the cochlea after a trauma, but this research is hopefully a perfect step in the direction to completely cure hearing loss soon and of course I hope it helps tinnitus sufferers.

I also don't blame any hearing aid company. We have hearing aids since... ear trumpets since 17th century? They helped millions of people over time so I am fair enough and say technology and science was not ready to give us anything else until now and whatever this might be, it is not on the market yet.

Thank you for your words I understand what you mean, this is not yet to be considered a cure and its focus is on hearing loss. I just hope hearing loss will help reverse tinnitus, which is a good theory that it should. Hopefully this will be our way out of tinnitus suffering! It's good to have hopes, but I see how it can also be bad...

 

[Striveon]

Tinker Bell posted a diagram above showing the high and low frequency cells of the cochlea. The drug will more easily reach the wide opening of the cochlea where the high frequency cells are located (the low frequency hair cells are further into the narrowing tube of the cochlea). Hopefully I explained this clearly and correctly.

Edit: oops, already answered. Anyway it's good news, most tinnitus is high frequency screeching. Guess most is 8000 to 15,000 Hz?

Thank you for explaining! I now understand it sucks how it may be not all of the tinnitus that will be eliminated though, it'd be nice to hear complete silence. Who knows, maybe we will

 

[JohnAdams]

The drug is a treatment for hearing loss not for tinnitus. It's just a theory that when you restore hearing, that it might mask or help to decrease tinnitus as well. You won't get an answer on tinnitus questions until they publish results with such information on it.

It is the absolute best theory. Even the inventor of this technology, Will McLean seems to think this is the case.

Why doesn't getting shocked with high voltage cause phantom limb syndrome? Because nerves heal. So then why would excess noise cause phantom auditory perceptions? Because the hair cells are destroyed, it doesn't cause brain damage, it doesn't destroy the auditory nerves, it is a lack of auditory input stimuli and the brain is filling that in.

 

[JohnAdams]

Stop naysaying regenerative medicine with stupid irrational speculation.

I have a BS degree in Biomedical Engineering Technology. Unless you have a better education than me or superior career experience then you have no arguments against this technology.

 

[jay777]

I hope this drug works, but will it cost $50k for treatment?

 

[Gwuidoo]

I hope this drug works, but will it cost $50k for treatment?

We don't really care, do we?

 

[Street Novelist]

Everyone needs to calm the fuck down and wait until they publish their results on their website in December. All of this speculation is unhealthy.

 

[Phendran]

it sucks how it may be not all of the tinnitus that will be eliminated though, it'd be nice to hear complete silence. Who knows, maybe we will

I'd be happy enough to go back to the tinnitus volume I had in 2015.
Even if it was constant it didn't affect me nearly as much.

 

[Zeneth]

I hope this drug works, but will it cost $50k for treatment?

If they actually want to make money off of it then no, if this all works out, it'll hopefully be somewhat affordable so that everyone can get it, not just 10 - 20 people willing to pay that much.

 

[JohnAdams]

Everyone needs to calm the fuck down and wait until they publish their results on their website in December. All of this speculation is unhealthy.

No it's not. Unless you know something we don't.
1. This method regrew rodent hair cells and restored their hearing.
2. It also works in human tissues in vitro.
3. The delivery method is the same in rodents and humans.
4. Humans have larger anatomy and thus a better chance of entering the cochlea.
5. Frequency Therapeutics reps have stated that it does in fact get into the cochlea.

From those facts it isn't unhealthy whatsoever to speculate it's going to work.

Previous experiments have also shown tinnitus can be caused from simply using earplugs and it is the brain looking for lost input. As soon as their hearing was restored, their tinnitus went away.

There are no profound leaps of logic here.

 

[JohnAdams]

Yeah, and people with Meniere's often have problems with hearing in low frequencies. Well initially, then it affects the whole spectra. Like myself. Time will tell.

Update: this statement of mine contains inaccurate information, sorry.

Yes I am aware of this. Meniere's is a far more complicated condition than noise damage. My only point in this regard is that in a Frequency Therapeutics patent they have stated that their methods are going to also treat Meniere's disease and dizziness and vertigo. I have no clue how but it's in the patent and you can't just patent anything without some kind of evidence. The same patent also mentions that this will treat tinnitus.

 

[annV]

you can't just patent anything without some kind of evidence.

False. Get your facts straight first. AM-101 was patented and it failed in the trials. Many drugs are patented and fail in clinical trials.

 

[d'Wooluf]

I thought Frequency Therapeutics came up with a new method to inject FX-322? He said it in a video once. That's the reason they've been able to produce so many cells.

I think it's injected as a liquid and turns into a gel at body temperature so it can stay in the ear longer.

 

[d'Wooluf]

I hope this drug works, but will it cost $50k for treatment?

Here's another question. Who's qualified to inject it and how much free time have they got? Consider the demand for treatment if it's successful.

 

[JohnAdams]

False. Get your facts straight first. AM-101 was patented and it failed in the trials. Many drugs are patented and fail in clinical trials.

Well shit. You're right. They even mention tinnitus and Meniere's in their patent.

However, their theory was flat wrong about the cause of tinnitus.

"Keyzilen is a small-molecule N-methyl-D-aspartate (NMDA) receptor. According to the company, evidence suggests that NMDA receptors in the cochlea play a major role in the occurrence of tinnitus following acute injury to the inner ear, such as from exposure to excessive noise, infections, disturbances in inner ear blood supply, or the administration of certain ototoxic drugs."​

Loss of sensory input being the root cause of tinnitus is a far greater theory.

But, you are right about the patent info.

 

[JohnAdams]

I wanted to open up a thread on any information or even speculation as to what they are doing.

For anyone criticizing me, or others for speculating what FX-322 will do then start a new thread that specifically is for only sharing established facts because in the very first post by the author of this thread specifically intended it to include sharing speculations.

 

[JohnAdams]

Here's another question. Who's qualified to inject it and how much free time have they got? Consider the demand for treatment if it's successful.

Frequency will use a clinically established procedure to inject small molecules in a slow-release gel into the middle ear during a three minute office procedure. Intra-tympanic injections are widely used for steroids in a high volume ENT procedure under an existing CPT code.

 

[JohnAdams]

False. Get your facts straight first. AM-101 was patented and it failed in the trials. Many drugs are patented and fail in clinical trials.

In your face, or your vestibular organ whatever. Dr. Will McLean?

"The-Leviathan • Jan 10, 2013, 5:29 AM
Yes, this method can also be used for vestibular cells, although this paper didn't look at that. We have regeneration studies for both organs going on in lab, and we actually see better yield results with vestibular hair cells."

 

[Tinker Bell]

2. It also works in human tissues in vitro.

It's a long thread so I likely missed it. I'd like more information about how they tested it in human tissue in vitro.

 

[JohnAdams]

It's a long thread so I likely missed it. I'd like more information about how they tested it in human tissue in vitro.

You actually already asked me this. I responded with the presentation with screenshots of the part where they actually showed images of the human tissue. I guess you didn't read the post, specifically addressing your question.

It's okay, it's my pleasure to post it again.

Okay I see the confusion here. I didn't mean to insinuate that the first trial proved it worked to regrow human hair cells. I was listing facts that have been previously discovered about this drug from other experiments. And it has been shown to regrow human hair cells, that's a fact.




They have regrown human hair cells.

View attachment 24064
The hair cells have ribbon synapses.
View attachment 24065

This video has probably been posted around this site multiple times. Especially in this thread. Maybe if you watched it you wouldn't be putting me on trial for being informed and doing research.

 

[Tinker Bell]

You actually already asked me this. I responded with the presentation with screenshots of the part where they actually showed images of the human tissue. I guess you didn't read the post, specifically addressing your question.

It's okay, it's my pleasure to post it again.

Thanks for posting again! I was confusing the in vitro terminology.

Sorry about that, it's been a loooooong week and I'm having some weird autoimmune episodes. My brain is mush.

 

[Ozwel]

Oh my, high frequency loss (above 13 kHz) is really located on the outer edge of the cochlea!

Loss above 13 kHz is perfectly normal when you are older than 25 and done a few concerts, listened to headphones etc.

A perfect hear for someone you never exposed himself to loud sound will not hear above 16khz at the age of 20. Then it gets worse at 25, 30, etc. Therefore you can't say for sure your tinnitus is due to a hearing loss above 13 kHz if you are older than 25-30.

I don't know your age.

When my tinnitus appeared I was 19 and could not hear above 11 kHz. There we can talk about hear loss, even though it is not impacting my ability to hear people or music.

 

[Ozwel]

I hope this drug works, but will it cost $50k for treatment?

Depends on your country. In France noone will ever have to pay 50k for anything related to health, not even give an advance. Mandatory social security + your job 's insurance will pay it for you. The only fear I could have is if tinnitus is not considered as a real issue like eye surgery currently is (to avoid having to wear glasses so not considered as a "big deal" for healthcare).

 

[Ozwel]

Everyone needs to calm the fuck down and wait until they publish their results on their website in December. All of this speculation is unhealthy.

Where did you guys read Frequency Therapeutics will publish results in December? Sorry I haven't read all the previous pages, it's posting hard here

 

[JohnAdams]

Where did you guys read Frequency Therapeutics will publish results in December? Sorry I haven't read all the previous pages, it's posting hard here

Their trial will conclude in December. I think it was assumed they would publish then. David Lucchino has since stated that they will publish early next year.

I've been saying our advocates should approach them in December when the trial concludes to ask them if they are aware if it had an effect on the patient's tinnitus and I have faced a substantial backlash on this forum.

 

[Pero1234]

Loss above 13 kHz is perfectly normal when you are older than 25 and done a few concerts, listened to headphones etc.

A perfect hear for someone you never exposed himself to loud sound will not hear above 16khz at the age of 20. Then it gets worse at 25, 30, etc. Therefore you can't say for sure your tinnitus is due to a hearing loss above 13 kHz if you are older than 25-30.

I don't know your age.

When my tinnitus appeared I was 19 and could not hear above 11 kHz. There we can talk about hear loss, even though it is not impacting my ability to hear people or music.

- I'm 37
- I take public transportion daily (loud trains)
- listened a lot to headphones (noise cancelling while commuting and working - up to 6 hours a day - low to medium volume)
- no or lousy ear protection when using power tools, lawn mower, pressure cleaner
- Went to the cinema (thx) 2x a month for over 20 years
- Went to about 3 concerts per year for about 8 years (no protection)

Needless to say, I would do things differently if I got another chance.

I got my T after a (too loud) action movie on my home theater. I measured it afterwards, wearing protection... Max noise levels were 82db, peaks up to 110db. (Explosions). Quite a bit louder than my usual listening habits.

Everything above 13khz is gone now. But I have no clue how much I had already lost before the movie.

I have to say I was very anxious during the film and had a panic attack right after when I heard ringing. (Never had it at home before). That may have made it "stick"...

That said... I'm still one of the lucky ones. T does not bother me that much, but I am very sad that listening to headphones even on the lowest volume spikes my T immediately. So I had to give that up.

I hope FX may give me back my music on the road and at work again... I'd be a lot more careful now.

 

[Flamingo1]

In your face, or your vestibular organ whatever. Dr. Will McLean?

"The-Leviathan • Jan 10, 2013, 5:29 AM
Yes, this method can also be used for vestibular cells, although this paper didn't look at that. We have regeneration studies for both organs going on in lab, and we actually see better yield results with vestibular hair cells."

Wow! Are you bipolar?

In your first response to @annV you agreed with her.

Now you want to to punch her in the face?!

Thanks for keeping the thread lively and informative!