Regarding @SilverSpiral's question. It makes sense to me that nerves / axons get damaged and although they are still transmitting information (sound) it is incomplete and thus sounds distorted. That's my 2 cents anyway.
"Hearing Distortion" "Recruitment" "Reactive Tinnitus"
- Thread starter SilverSpiral
- Start date
Member@SilverSpiral, the day or two after my H onset on August 1, I left a restaurant in panic because the music piping from the speakers sounded horrible, screeching and scratching every few seconds. At higher notes, I also heard what seemed like microphone feedback.
This horrified me because at that point, I had already discovered that music sounded tinny to me. I didn't realize until I left the restaurant that it could sound even more distorted.
Because of that, I didn't dare enter any establishment with piped-in music for around a couple of months. I tried with earplugs but the higher pitched sounds still pierced through.
I didn't know exactly when this particular ear issue resolved, though. I just remember that around late September, I absentmindedly walked into a clothing store without my earplugs on because I saw a cute dress on sale. As soon as I went in, I heard EDM blasting from the speakers. I quickly stuffed my ears with silicon plugs, but I noticed that the music wasn't screeching and scratching like it used to. I also managed to stay long enough to fit and buy the dress because the high-pitched sounds weren't piercing as I had remembered them to be.
I don't know what helped resolve it.
I'm not taking any supplements aside from curcumin and piperine, and I'm taking them mostly for my skin and not ears.
I did listen to pink noise every night to mask my T. Maybe that helped?
Now, music still has a distinctive lack of bass to me. But at least I can now enter stores and restaurants without me wanting to flee.
I'm just hoping that one day, I can hear bass again and not just feel it vibrate through my body until I feel nauseous. I hope music sounds better for you too, and soon.
This horrified me because at that point, I had already discovered that music sounded tinny to me. I didn't realize until I left the restaurant that it could sound even more distorted.
Because of that, I didn't dare enter any establishment with piped-in music for around a couple of months. I tried with earplugs but the higher pitched sounds still pierced through.
I didn't know exactly when this particular ear issue resolved, though. I just remember that around late September, I absentmindedly walked into a clothing store without my earplugs on because I saw a cute dress on sale. As soon as I went in, I heard EDM blasting from the speakers. I quickly stuffed my ears with silicon plugs, but I noticed that the music wasn't screeching and scratching like it used to. I also managed to stay long enough to fit and buy the dress because the high-pitched sounds weren't piercing as I had remembered them to be.
I don't know what helped resolve it.
I'm not taking any supplements aside from curcumin and piperine, and I'm taking them mostly for my skin and not ears.
I did listen to pink noise every night to mask my T. Maybe that helped?
Now, music still has a distinctive lack of bass to me. But at least I can now enter stores and restaurants without me wanting to flee.
I'm just hoping that one day, I can hear bass again and not just feel it vibrate through my body until I feel nauseous. I hope music sounds better for you too, and soon.
I just wrote that my T is impeding and my hearing not ok, but that I still want to try music. I can't wait for a cure to enjoy art again, so...
My biggest worry is that my T is never silent. It's always loud or very loud and changing (different tones and not stable). + the high frequencies hearing loss that makes the hearing muffled. I think it's possible to still feel emotions whilst listening to music. But is it possible to completely appreciate all the nuances of a song ? Not sure... Hearing aids are not an option for me at the moment. I tend to loose my hearing very quickly and it could only make it even faster.
You have had tinnitus since 2004? So I am assuming before the balloon incident in the car your tinnitus was manageable and you could enjoy listening to music? Your experience is similar to mine until I had noise exposure for the second time in 2008 but I haven't got any hearing loss.
If memory serves me correctly, the experience with the balloon happened about one year ago? Previously, you have told me that you've seen 6 ENT specialists? What I can't understand is how nobody has recommended any treatment plan for you and find this quite strange. In my opinion, I believe something can be done. You say hearing aids are not an option for you at the moment? Please forgive me for asking the following question and I understand if you don't want to answer it here in the forum, but would appreciate it if you told me in private message. Can you tell me why hearing aids are not an option for you at the moment?
I appreciate that healthcare is different between countries. In the UK, we don't pay for hearing aids, white noise generators or any form of tinnitus treatment such as: CBT, TRT etc. The same applies for any tests. I would like to know how your healthcare system works and whether you have to pay for any devices or tests as I've mentioned.
The fact of the matter is Foncky, I believe you need treatment because of the fluctuating intensity of your tinnitus and severe hyperacusis. Although we are two different people, my tinnitus was very severe after the 2008 incident but I improved with treatment even though it took me 4 years to habituate for the second time.
I believe once you are on a treatment plan, you will gradually make improvement and get your life back and be able to enjoy music as you did before. It is likely that your tinnitus will reduce in intensity to enable you to do this.
Michael
Yes, before the ballon one year ago, music was great.
6 ENTs but they were pretty much all awful, some saying for instance that T is all psychological and you never have it for very long...
You say that headphones are dangerous for us with weakened ears. That's what hearing aids are : powerful speakers that fit right into your ears. Their purpose is to amplify the noise to fill the damaged frequencies.
That's the worst thing : my outer hair cells seem to be very fragile and I don't want to put more stress on them. The fact you don't have any visible hearing loss makes a huge difference on how you perceive them actually.
I don't have much high frequency hearing left.
I read from far too much people that their hearing is going worse since they have had hearing aids.
By the way, it would cost me around 4000 euros for the hearing aids. But that's just money.
6 ENTs but they were pretty much all awful, some saying for instance that T is all psychological and you never have it for very long...
You say that headphones are dangerous for us with weakened ears. That's what hearing aids are : powerful speakers that fit right into your ears. Their purpose is to amplify the noise to fill the damaged frequencies.
That's the worst thing : my outer hair cells seem to be very fragile and I don't want to put more stress on them. The fact you don't have any visible hearing loss makes a huge difference on how you perceive them actually.
I don't have much high frequency hearing left.
I read from far too much people that their hearing is going worse since they have had hearing aids.
By the way, it would cost me around 4000 euros for the hearing aids. But that's just money.
I think you are sensible, since a balloon popping in a car gave you damage visible on a standard (Crappy) audiogram under 8k, that does sound like compromised ears. The sound I was exposed to was several fathoms louder than a balloon popping in a car.
You are right @Michael Leigh it seems that is a huge contradiction, that you advice anybody with T from using headphones, but suggest hearing aides, hearing aides puts the sound even closer to your middle ear than headphones. I also can't quite understand how Michael feels he has "perfect hearing" yet had severe acoustic trauma, T + H, but now he says he has better than average hearing, and no distortion. And loves to listen to his HIFI and post all about it on a thread where someone can't even enjoy music. Are you saying your hearing healed in the long term? What is your actual theory of how hearing damage works? You had two acoustic traumas, resulting in hearing distortion, head under water feeling and severe H, and Ginkgo Biloba and TRT made it so that now you have better than average hearing, and sometimes NO TINNITUS?? Seems you are the luckiest one on the forum. What was your hearing distortion like, and how long did it take to get better? Did you take steroids or do LLLT?
I've even seen you in other threads say you have "no hearing loss" because your audiograms are "good" and "they're the doctors", yet you say your T ranges from severe to gone(?) and that you had hearing distortion and hyperacusis for years... What about hidden hearing loss? That's whats causing the majority of people with noise induced T on here, but you never mention it. Your recovery seems more miraculous than all of those I've read with LLLT, Gene Therapy, and Steroids combined.
bill 112
Member
I mean,I just done my online audiogram yet again(Mimi,great app)and my hearing is still the exact same as it was 3 years ago,but yet I have severe T and H?I can hear upto 16,000hz but I still get worse from nothing with hearing distortion that's gone one second and then awful the next?Its synaptopathy,it really can't be anything else.
bill 112
Member
Also,anybody thinking of downloading this app I heavily recommend it,my results here are identical to my results at the two audiologists I went to.
Thank you for your warm support. "Compromised ears" doesn't mean much and that's not what I want to hear
I already had hearing loss before the balloon, it just pushed it to another level.
bill 112
Member
Yes synaptopathy is hidden hearing loss.
Yes you use head phones,it's not loud even for someone like me so don't worry too much.
Place the headphones near your ear and see if it's uncomfortable for you,that's what I did and I didn't find it loud.
Beats going to an idiotic audiologist in my opinion.
Thank you for your warm support. "Compromised ears" doesn't mean much and that's not what I want to hear
I already had hearing loss before the balloon, it just pushed it to another level.
The bad thing about hearing aids is that when people put them on they produce a super loud beep and in a very high frequency. It's a pretty awful pitch and volume. I have not used hearing aids but I have been around people who use them, and a typical thing is that when the person using a hearing aid puts it on or touches it to place it properly in the ear or adjust it, the thing sounds super loud and very high frequency. This may vary with models, but the ones I have seen have this limitation.
You mentioned you thought your outer haircells seem to be particularly fragile, I was just referring to that by the term compromised ears, and that you already had damage that was worsened by a balloon pop.Thank you for your warm support. "Compromised ears" doesn't mean much and that's not what I want to hear
I already had hearing loss before the balloon, it just pushed it to another level.
Found another guy describing similar stuff as this thread, though seemingly less mild. https://www.tinnitustalk.com/threads/hearing-distortion-question.8426/
bill 112
Member
Hearing aids are a death sentence for hearing in my opinion,obviously I understand why someone would opt for them but they're only going to slowly destroy what's left quicker than it would without them.
Mate of mines grandfather got fitted with hearing aids like 4 years ago,his loss wasn't even that bad but regardless he opted for them as he was struggling abit to hear things being said etc.
2 years later and his hearing was far worse than before and he had to get them tuned regularly or amped up to compensate for the loss,they diagnosed him with"progressive hearing loss"as it was steadily getting worse.Last year he finally ditched them and funnily enough his hearing has remained the same for over a year now with no extra loss since the day he stopped wearing them.
@SilverSpiral No worries, I get what you meant. I'm waiting for the full cure I guess (hair cells + nerves).
Yes, because those are mainly made for old people... Loud beep even profound deaf people can hear = "Ok, my hearing aids are on !".
That's exactly why they are not an option for me... I'm only 30. Plus it's really difficult to find an audiologist who understands people like us. They have an easy business with old customers, why bother ?
bill 112
Member
They are indeed extremely rare to find,if it doesn't involve you buying a hearing aid they're pretty much not interested.
But don't worry,they have a back up plan for people like us,if you suffer from T or H they try and pull the WNG card on you and hope that the $$$ comes rolling in
I don't really know why anyone would bother with them if I'm honest.
bill 112
Member
They are indeed extremely rare to find,if it doesn't involve you buying a hearing aid they're pretty much not interested.
But don't worry,they have a back up plan for people like us,if you suffer from T or H they try and pull the WNG card on you and hope that the $$$ comes rolling in
I don't really know why anyone would bother with them if I'm honest.
There are some "doctors" or "audiologists" who, before discussing any treatment, they want to discuss the way of payment and the cost. How can one consider one treatment without having any information unless "this is labeled x sound therapy"? ;-)
Hello @SilverSpiral
We have corresponded several times in the passed and I thought our discussions were interesting. I know that you have had noise trauma and now have intrusive tinnitus with hyperacusis. Speaking as someone that has experienced this, I know how debilitating it can be and how it can affect a person's daily life and their well-being.
Recently your posts have been getting quite confrontational towards me bordering on being argumentative. This is something that I don't wish to engage in. Therefore, this will be the last time I will be replying to your questions.
I have never said that I have perfect hearing. However, my ENT consultant has mentioned to me on more than one occasion, that I have above average hearing and no hearing loss. It is well documented that not everyone with tinnitus experiences hearing loss.
Regarding the use of hearing aids and headphones. I have written many times in this forum, that I don't advise anyone whose tinnitus was caused by loud noise exposure, to use headphones even at low volume. My post: headphones and tinnitus can be read by clicking on the following link: https://www.tinnitustalk.com/threads/headphones-and-tinnitus.12062/ It also mentions my opinion on the use of wearing white noise generators and the same applies for hearing aids. I choose not to go over this again.
Some people with tinnitus use headphones and have no problems. That is fine if it works for them.
My tinnitus was very severe at one time. I have mentioned this many times in this forum. Please read my post: My experience with tinnitus: https://www.tinnitustalk.com/threads/my-experience-with-tinnitus.12076/
I see no reason why I shouldn't mention to another forum member that I enjoy listening to my HI-FI because there was a time that I couldn't. I was trying to give the person in question, hope and encouragement that things will improve especially, if he's able to get some treatment. That was my intention. It wasn't to gloat at his distress or misfortune, that at the moment he is unable to enjoy listening to music.
Many of my posts, which can be read by clicking on my "started threads", are written to help people to have a more positive out-look on life and tinnitus. I believe this is achievable but it takes time. It took me 4 years to habituate to tinnitus the second time. I never gave up and that is something that I try to convey to people. Always believe that things will get better and that life won't stay the same.
Our greatest glory is not in ever falling but getting up every time that we fall
I wish you well
Michael
I read but my question remains : why would headphones at low volume cause more damage and not hearing aids ? I understand the purpose of hearing aids. They can reduce the perception of T, but it doesn't mean they can't do more harm than good in the long run.
Foncky. If you choose to use headphones then go ahead. In my opinion, hearing aids are supplying the brain and auditory system with sounds/frequencies that it is unable to hear from the outside environment.
Music through headphones, even at low the volume has syncopation so can irritate the cochlea. It for this reason, I believe, many people in this forum that use headphones or earbuds and play music or other audio through them to help alleviate, their tinnitus and give themselves relief, often make the tinnitus more intrusive. Not everyone will be adversely affected but I would rather not take the risk. I believe one should use proper devices such as white noise generators or sound machine for sound enrichment.
Michael
I'm not being argumentative, I'm trying to understand what you're saying, because you say several things which to me contradict each other. You obviously put a lot of thought into your posts, and I find them useful, but I also find them confusing. I am trying to find information that will improve my condition, and while I've heard you talk about how bad your tinnitus was, and how bad your hearing was, and how bad your hyperacusis was, but also how good your hearing is, and how you can enjoy music, and how sometimes you have no tinnitus. I am seeking the information that will help me recover like you did.
You frequently advise people not to use headphones even at low volume, but you do advise them to use hearing aides. I feel there is an inherent contradiction in this when it comes to damaged auditory systems, as I view them as similar stimuli, it is my understanding that a hearing aid would likely be easily comparable in audio input to headphones at very low volume. And The thread you linked does not specifically address this. I am not the only person who has this question so there is no need to single me out as being "argumentative". I personally would use neither.
You say that you had severe acoustic trauma, resulting in T, H, and Hearing Distortion, heavyness in ears etc. And you have said that you had all the symptoms I had and more. This is indicative of hearing damage. You however also post that you have no hearing loss and above average hearing, and are able to hear music in all it's splendor. That is a phenomenal recovery, and I am trying to understand what and how you got there, using what methods. The only methods I've heard you specifically mention, is Ginkgo Biloba and TRT. You did not address my question of whether or not you used LLLT, or steroids.
If you had hearing distortions following acoustic trauma, how long did it take to go away, and what methods did you use? This is the information I seek. I am seeking information, not arguing.
Stay positive.
No no, I won't use headphones. My ears would say no in a matter of seconds anyway.
But I won't use hearing aids either. I know they will provide useful sounds to my brain, but it's still a danger for a weak inner ear. I don't see the difference between headphones and hearing aids as far as long term damage is concerned.
If anything hearing aides are providing more volume than headphones at a low volume, because it's delivering sound at a volume to make up for a deficit frequency, the further the deficit goes, the more volume supplied. And would not hearing music with a hearing aid also deliver "syncopation".
@Foncky
Hi Foncky,
Sorry I misunderstood you. I should have known better for you are quite well mannered.
Contrary to what you think about your inner ear being weak and feel that a hearing aid/s will make the situation worse I don't think so. I believe it's anxiety that is making you feel this way and I understand that, for I was once in the same situation. This is where talking to a hearing therapist will help.
You can recover from this I truly believe that but you need to seek professional help at ENT. Over protecting your ears in the manner that you've been doing often causes more harm than good. I advise you again to use sound enrichment at night using a sound machine. Set the volume to low. Your auditory system is hypersensitive but that doesn't mean the situation cannot be fixed. Seek help and I believe your ears will improve.
All the best
Michael
bill 112
Member
It's a matter of Luck Spiral,when I first developed H it was severe but time and healing left me nearly cured!
The next person might recover only 40% and this varies from person to person,there isn't an exact rule of what happens when one develops H it's all a who the heck knows what will happen and only time will tell.
Sound enrichment doesn't cure H I don't care what anyone says it just simply DOES NOT cure H.
It helps someone establish their new tolerances i.e I can tolerate this level of noise now can I tolerate the next level and so on but overall it plays absolutely zero role in actual recovery of nerves.
Studies have actually proven that it may very well be detrimental to someone's hearing as even low levels of sound can and does exacerbate synaptopathy after acoustic over exposure,Homeo provided the links over in the Hidden Hearing loss thread,it's all there in black and white and simply undeniable hard evidence there for all to see.
But yet,and this is what makes my head spin,it's all brushed aside simply because Jastrebroff has his theory stuck in every audiologist and neurologists office the world over.Its an easy"solution"to a problem that they can make money off of i.e WNG's TRT etc.
But if you look at his theory and try to see any facts attached to it there's simply none,it's no more than an educated guess that's accepted as absolute truth.
The say TRT can cure H,but if someone has let's say a minor trauma and undergoes TRT and fully recover as they were always going to do then TRT is hailed as the miracle that made it so.
But what happens when someone with a major trauma arrives,they are kept to the same criteria the less injured person is and expected to make the same recovery when that simply may not be possible.If they can't recover then it's diagnosed as misophonia and that's a psychology problem so nothing to do with TRT hence why it has a hugely over exaggerated and twisted success rate,anyone who can't improve is tossed away and diagnosed(conveniently)with a mental issue,something TRT isn't designed to treat.
I think PaulBe said it best,it's a supportive bandage for people and nothing really more than that.
I mean if we look at it this way,lets say Liberman is right and H is a result of synaptopathy then how does sound heal those damaged nerves?Its like giving someone whose profoundly deaf WNG's to heal their haircells!It ain't gonna happen.
But as much as I disagree with TRT I do still admit and maintain that it is useful,but only in establishing to the individual what his new tolerances are and nothing really more than that.
I heavily disagree with its"your no more susceptible to damage"mantra,simply because they actually can't say that for 100% certain,they have zero evidence to back that claim up where as Liberman ACTUALLY has the evidence to say the complete opposite.
I prefer evidence with things like this,hard evidence stuck right under my nose and I can't find any from Jastrebroff only talk and theories.
There's my little rant over,nobody knows how much your going to recover and how long that may take,a year,two years,never?Nobody can say for absolute certain but I would stick down the regenerative path that your currently going down as that if anything may actually heal damaged nerves.
The next person might recover only 40% and this varies from person to person,there isn't an exact rule of what happens when one develops H it's all a who the heck knows what will happen and only time will tell.
Sound enrichment doesn't cure H I don't care what anyone says it just simply DOES NOT cure H.
It helps someone establish their new tolerances i.e I can tolerate this level of noise now can I tolerate the next level and so on but overall it plays absolutely zero role in actual recovery of nerves.
Studies have actually proven that it may very well be detrimental to someone's hearing as even low levels of sound can and does exacerbate synaptopathy after acoustic over exposure,Homeo provided the links over in the Hidden Hearing loss thread,it's all there in black and white and simply undeniable hard evidence there for all to see.
But yet,and this is what makes my head spin,it's all brushed aside simply because Jastrebroff has his theory stuck in every audiologist and neurologists office the world over.Its an easy"solution"to a problem that they can make money off of i.e WNG's TRT etc.
But if you look at his theory and try to see any facts attached to it there's simply none,it's no more than an educated guess that's accepted as absolute truth.
The say TRT can cure H,but if someone has let's say a minor trauma and undergoes TRT and fully recover as they were always going to do then TRT is hailed as the miracle that made it so.
But what happens when someone with a major trauma arrives,they are kept to the same criteria the less injured person is and expected to make the same recovery when that simply may not be possible.If they can't recover then it's diagnosed as misophonia and that's a psychology problem so nothing to do with TRT hence why it has a hugely over exaggerated and twisted success rate,anyone who can't improve is tossed away and diagnosed(conveniently)with a mental issue,something TRT isn't designed to treat.
I think PaulBe said it best,it's a supportive bandage for people and nothing really more than that.
I mean if we look at it this way,lets say Liberman is right and H is a result of synaptopathy then how does sound heal those damaged nerves?Its like giving someone whose profoundly deaf WNG's to heal their haircells!It ain't gonna happen.
But as much as I disagree with TRT I do still admit and maintain that it is useful,but only in establishing to the individual what his new tolerances are and nothing really more than that.
I heavily disagree with its"your no more susceptible to damage"mantra,simply because they actually can't say that for 100% certain,they have zero evidence to back that claim up where as Liberman ACTUALLY has the evidence to say the complete opposite.
I prefer evidence with things like this,hard evidence stuck right under my nose and I can't find any from Jastrebroff only talk and theories.
There's my little rant over,nobody knows how much your going to recover and how long that may take,a year,two years,never?Nobody can say for absolute certain but I would stick down the regenerative path that your currently going down as that if anything may actually heal damaged nerves.
I'm sure it can improve, otherwise I would be in a very dark place.
If I had no hearing loss, I would be 100 % focused on "how to get better". Unfortunaly, with this level of hearing loss, I'm more focused on "Protect what you can, you'll see for improvement later, it's not that bad after all".
This is very confusing and I'm still looking for an ENT or audiologist I can trust.
I'll begin with a sound machine at night, this way I'm sure there is no damage possible. I'm going to buy a small USB speaker and feed it with my own white / red noises files.
If I had no hearing loss, I would be 100 % focused on "how to get better". Unfortunaly, with this level of hearing loss, I'm more focused on "Protect what you can, you'll see for improvement later, it's not that bad after all".
This is very confusing and I'm still looking for an ENT or audiologist I can trust.
I'll begin with a sound machine at night, this way I'm sure there is no damage possible. I'm going to buy a small USB speaker and feed it with my own white / red noises files.
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