How Long Before Habituation of Perception Kicks In?

[RichL]

I'm with you @Telis , volume does matter, when my T is playing up and the intensity increases, I feel totally miserable, I don't enjoy my job and can't wait to get home so I can remove my ear plugs and try and mask it, I find I cannot turn my truck off during my work day or even stop and relax at a tea room because with my ear plugs in the T is so loud, it gives me headaches.

When I get quiet days I actually love being at work and really enjoy my day, I'm able to sit down in a quiet tea room and relax even with ear plugs in.

Volume matters big time and I am sick of some members here who seem to down play it's importance!

 

[attheedgeofscience]

There are a lot of factors that go into this, though it is generally accepted by cognitive behavioral therapists that the intrusiveness of the stimulus is not, generally, a factor: the body's reaction, certainly, is.

Without a stimulus, would there be a reaction?

 

[Dr. Nagler]

I'm bent on suffering?

Yes, it seems to me you are.

What on earth are you taking about?

You were dealt a lousy hand. But I think you are playing it poorly.

I Had posted that intensity matters, I'm not sure what you and Carm are going on about here.

I agree with you. Intensity matters. But it is not the be-all and end-all of suffering. You seem to think it is.

Let's stay on track please.

I am staying on track. The topic has to do with how long before habituation kicks in. @Carm and I think you are standing in the way of yours.

And Dr. Nagler, are you reading people's posts?

Yes. I do not respond unless I have read the post I am responding to.

You seem to go off on a tangent in most cases, how about you join the current discussion for a change?

That was rude and unnecessary.

If you agree with Carm and Kaelon in this discussion why in the world are you are you wishing my T would go down 50%?

Because I believe that intensity matters. And I believe that if the intensity of your tinnitus were to drop by 50%, you would feel much better.

If you agree with them that in fact the intensity does not matter, this wouldn't help me anyway right??????

I think it would. But it's just not going to happen. So that being the case, I believe that in order to decrease your suffering, it will be necessary for you to think outside the box. You seem to disagree. That is totally fine with me, but you don't have to get rude about it.

How do you keep a reputation contradicting yourself so much?

I am so over this. Good bye, Telis. I wish you well.

 

[Telis]

Yes, it seems to me you are.


You were dealt a lousy hand. But I think you are playing it poorly.


I agree with you. Intensity matters. But it is not the be-all and end-all of suffering. You seem to think it is.


I am staying on track. The topic has to do with how long before habituation kicks in. @Carm and I think you are standing in the way of yours.


Yes. I do not respond unless I have read the post I am responding to.


That was rude and unnecessary.


Because I believe that intensity matters. I just do not believe that intensity is the whole story.


I think it would. But it's just not going to happen. So that being the case, I believe that in order to decrease your suffering, it will be necessary for you to think outside the box. You seem to disagree. That is totally fine with me, but you don't have to get rude about it.


I am so over this. Good bye, Telis. I wish you well.

Thanks. You too.

 

[Dr. Nagler]

Volume matters big time and I am sick of some members here who seem to down play it's importance!

Rich, what exactly do you do to predictably turn down the volume of your tinnitus? For me, I could never figure out how to predictably turn down the volume of mine. So I stopped trying long ago. But if you have figured it out, I think that's wonderful - and I am very happy for you.

 

[Zechariah]

So I've had tinnitus for 10 months now. The last two months i've really gotten the habituation of reaction down, I think. I don't panic anymore, I don't cry everyday anymore, I don't frantically try to avoid the ringing anymore, I've picked up my life again, etc. So how long before my brain starts filtering out mr. T? (it's still annoying as heck)

I believe it's possible for T to become my 'new' silence. Since people who've been born with T don't really mind it and would probably go crazy if their T would disappear (oh the irony).

I've also been reading up on subjects like neuroplasticity, which I hope my brain is good at. (Superbrain by deepak chopra & Rudolph Tanzi, The brain's way of healing by norman doidge) Any other recommendations?

Hi, I believe that if you have moderate T which you can hear for example in average office environment, you won't habituate to the point that you can't hear it or it's the new silence for you. There will be situations that T will remind of itself. My assumption is based on the fact that every one who has T would rather get rid of it even if it cost a bit of money no matter how habituated you are.

But I can tell that your reaction will get better and better. For me my reaction got better in 2-3 months cycles you could say. Now I'm at the point that I won't get palpitations even if I notice a new loud tone in my T which kept me awake very often.

Anyway, it is very likely that most of us don't have think about this kind of things after couple of years thanks to progressions in T research.

 

[MattK]

It almost feels you are delusional yourself, thinking that the only solution is to reduce the loudness!

I couldn't agree more. Unfortunately some people have this perception and it pretty much puts them in a situation where they have no choice but to suffer.

But they basically also have the mindset of, "well I could never habituate to this. So people who have are either lying or they have mild tinnitus or they are super human." It might seem funny, but it's actually a very arrogant view. It's like saying, "I'm pretty much the toughest guy in the world. So if I can't handle this, then no one else can!"

 

[Dr. Nagler]

I would just like to add that the phenomenon @Carm and @MattK are talking about here is fortunately quite rare. It seems a bit more common on a board like this because the voices of those so afflicted are typically very loud in their protestations. They feel like their character or decency is being brought into question. But that is not the case. I am sure that Carm and Matt are not in attack mode. I know that I am not. I am also sure that those who are afflicted (i.e., in a position where they are absolutely convinced they have no choice but to suffer) are not going to change the opinions that put them in those positions in the first place. Carm, Matt, and I are not posting with the intent of changing their opinions, opinions that are written in stone. Nor are we posting with the intent of badgering them. What good does that do? None as far as I can tell. No, we are posting with the intent of possibly making a real difference in the lives who are not as "dug in" as they are.

(Carm and Matt, if I have misstated your positions on this matter, please correct me.)

 

[linearb]

But they basically also have the mindset of, "well I could never habituate to this. So people who have are either lying or they have mild tinnitus or they are super human." It might seem funny, but it's actually a very arrogant view. It's like saying, "I'm pretty much the toughest guy in the world. So if I can't handle this, then no one else can!"

It's arrogant, unpleasant, and makes such people very hard to deal with. I have had two different people tell me that my suffering wasn't real and that I didn't actually suffer with this despite having spent weeks of insomnia threatening suicide through tears.

When someone says something like that, it is very hard for me to react more civilly than "fuck you, you arrogant piece of shit". I think my actual responses were somewhat more diplomatic, because I understand that intense suffering erodes civility.

 

[dboy]

Could I just point out one little possibility here. Only a possibility.

Could it be that while most here have intrusive or very severe T, there are also some among us that have a T that is even louder - or perhaps more variable/reactive - and that is hence harder to habituate. Perhaps much, much harder. An order of magnitude harder. I don't know whether this is the case, but I definitely think it is a possibility since I do not have a window into anyone else's head and since people write things about their own experience that strongly suggest this.

If that possibility were true then I would expect such people to be extremely offended by assertions like those I am seeing here. Maybe they are not 'dug in' but are trying their best against something that those around them do not understand.

Sound familiar? I am sure many of us here know the frustration of encountering an ENT or other person who does not relate to our suffering. "Oh tinnitus. Nothing to be done. Just get on with life. I have it myself. Only hear it in a quiet room. No problem." But for us with intrusive tinnitus, we know it can be real bad. Yet here on a tinnitus forum - in the support section no less - we have individuals (including a doctor) pulling what pretty much amounts to the same move on folks who may possibly have it much worse than they are able to understand.

Is this fair? Is this support?

MattK mentions arrogance... makes an accusation of arrogance. To me, arrogance is claiming to know what goes on in someone else's head when this runs counter to what they tell you.

 

[Vincent R]

The habituation state is sometimes portraited as some kind of Nirvana of Tinnitus, and I'm not sure that promotes understanding. (Admittedly, I'm not habituated myself, I merely survive one day at the time and don't expect this to change.) It lies in humans nature to adopt. So people get on with their lives if at all possible. They develop strategies, find positive things to focus on, accomplish goals and if all goes well, T will eventually not be the factor that rule their lives. They're like birds who has found a way to fly even though T functions as a weight that is trying to drag them down. I don't have any problem to accept the possibility of such a development.

I do have a problem to believe in a state of bliss you either enter or don't, and that there would be shortcuts to get there.

If habituation hasn't work out, then that must be because there's obstacles, since the process in itself should be completly natural. Claiming that a T-sufferer has an attitude problem doesn't seem like a trustworthy obstacle to point at, to put it mildly, and what the reaction will be is very predictable so I don't know why people even bother. A more obvious reason would be that T is loud as hell and is wearing the sufferers mental and physical health down relentlessly. In order to break such a vicious cycle, it will take more than what's easily available today, so much seems to have been made clear.

 

[MattK]

I have had two different people tell me that my suffering wasn't real and that I didn't actually suffer with this despite having spent weeks of insomnia threatening suicide through tears.

And yet, there are people here who insist that people like me are suffering because we still have tinnitus. They claim that I just simply don't know I'm suffering. Funny how these people think they know our emotional state better than we do.

Could it be that while most here have intrusive or very severe T, there are also some among us that have a T that is even louder - or perhaps more variable/reactive - and that is hence harder to habituate.

Yes, absolutely. I'm not in the camp that believes volume doesn't matter. I think it does matter, perhaps more than anything else.

MattK mentions arrogance... makes an accusation of arrogance. To me, arrogance is claiming to know what goes on in someone else's head when this runs counter to what they tell you.

Oh really? Such as telling linearb that he never suffered? Or telling me I must have mild tinnitus since I habituated (and remember, no one can hear my tinnitus but me, so who but me can say it's mild?) Or how about those who insist that people like me are self-delusional because we think we're not suffering though apparently we are?

 

[linearb]

Oh really? Such as telling linearb that he never suffered? Or telling me I must have mild tinnitus since I habituated (and remember, no one can hear my tinnitus but me, so who but me can say it's mild?) Or how about those who insist that people like me are self-delusional because we think we're not suffering though apparently we are?

I have found that I am unable to provide any useful or helpful communication to some people, and just started getting pretty aggressive about putting people on ignore when it was headed in that direction. I don't feel great about that.

 

[attheedgeofscience]

Or how about those who insist that people like me are self-delusional because we think we're not suffering though apparently we are?

Well, this statement from yourself confirms you are doing just fine and your presence here on TinnitusTalk is for "other reasons":

www.tinnitustalk.com/threads/if-your-tinnitus-vanished-how-would-your-life-change.8997/page-3#post-105293

So at least we have that bit cleared up.

 

[MattK]

I have found that I am unable to provide any useful or helpful communication to some people, and just started getting pretty aggressive about putting people on ignore when it was headed in that direction. I don't feel great about that.

It's crossed my mind to put certain people on ignore. But I also figure everyone is allowed their opinions whether it agrees with mine or not.

 

[linearb]

It's crossed my mind to put certain people on ignore. But I also figure everyone is allowed their opinions whether it agrees with mine or not.

Well, I think you're better than I am at not butting heads with people. For me, it feels more respectful to allow people to express those opinions without having to endure 800 word responses from me every time they do

 

[attheedgeofscience]

Could it be that while most here have intrusive or very severe T, there are also some among us that have a T that is even louder - or perhaps more variable/reactive - and that is hence harder to habituate. Perhaps much, much harder. An order of magnitude harder. I don't know whether this is the case, but I definitely think it is a possibility since I do not have a window into anyone else's head and since people write things about their own experience that strongly suggest this.

Agreed. This is a difficult subject. "Difficult" because there is some amount of subjectivity involved. I did compile statistics for the forum (based on a poll) earlier on:

www.tinnitustalk.com/threads/tinnitus-talk-mini-survey-results.7904/

Pie chart #3 provides a clue as to the severity of tinnitus amongst sufferers who visited TinnitusTalk (i.e. not just members). N = 802, and as can be seen, the most severe category (= "5") is smaller than the two big ones (= "3" and "4").

I have no doubt that members such as @dan @Viking @Telis @SteveToHeal @Christian78 and several others are suffering more than the average person afflicted with tinnitus. They are definitely in category #5 (or possibly even #6 in the above survey...).

attheedgeofscience
07/MAY/2015.

 

[dboy]

Oh really? Such as telling linearb that he never suffered? Or telling me I must have mild tinnitus since I habituated (and remember, no one can hear my tinnitus but me, so who but me can say it's mild?) Or how about those who insist that people like me are self-delusional because we think we're not suffering though apparently we are?

I have not said such things. My post was intended as a defence of those who might have been offended by the inference that what works for one should be good for all. I do think it is worth recognising that if you conduct yourself in an insensitive way to others then you may hear things you do not like in return - just the nature of human beings unfortunately.

I am often insensitive myself so I mean no offense when I point out how you could be causing offense to others. We all have much to learn in this regard, and hence I strongly believe in listening to what others say about their experience and respecting this. That was my point.

 

[MattK]

I have not said such things.

Sorry, I wasn't trying to imply I was talking about you. I was trying to speak in general terms without calling specific individuals out. Apparently I didn't do too good of a job at that.

I understand there might not be a one size fits all treatment. But here's the thing, since a cure doesn't exist and if habituation isn't an option then what's left for the time being?

 

[Vincent R]

Here's a quote from @erik that I think was good, written in the thread False Security:

Early on with T every day is bad. Then as time passes, you mix in a good day here and there. But the bad days do return for the most part. Then as more time passes, more good days mix in with the bad days and so on. You will get to a point where you might even have more good days than bad days and some times you regress.

However, one day you won't care as much. I know what is hard to believe at this point but it's true and regardless of if you are having a good (low T day) or bad (high T day), you won't really care that much either way. Sure you prefer the low T day but you will reach a point when even the bad days don't bother you that much and not even close to as much as it did during the early days.​

This sounds like realistic talk to me. If you're able to stay on track, a gradual improvement may start to kick in so that's what you will have to aim for.

Now, what if the volume of T is twice as bad, or three or four times as bad? What if tensions starts to build up in the body, and sleep goes out through the window and the happy pills from the ENT simply doesn't do the trick no more? Some people seemed to have find a way to live with very loud T, and they still find existence worthwhile. So I guess it's possible. But I also believe that T simply can be so fucking loud putting up with it becomes flat out impossible.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but confident statements that it's possible to habituate to any T with the right mindset won't be of any use for people who barely are able to keep themselves together. Empathy and respect perhaps won't help either, but should be the lesser of two evils in such a situaion. I tend to recommend people to look into meditation practice, since I know from experience it's a potent survival tool. I know it's in most cases pointless, because people don't do that kind of stuff unless they're into it, but it's the least of a mockery I can think of.

 

[dboy]

Sorry, I wasn't trying to imply I was talking about you. I was trying to speak in general terms without calling specific individuals out. Apparently I didn't do too good of a job at that.

Sure, I kind of did that too and you probably felt unfairly attacked because it was your name that did get mentioned in my post.

I understand there might not be a one size fits all treatment. But here's the thing, since a cure doesn't exist and if habituation isn't an option then what's left for the time being?

That may be true, but if it isn't working out for somebody then it does not mean that their attitude or their mind set or whatever is the problem.

I tried to write something else but Vincent R said it so much better (as usual!). I wish everyone would listen to him as much as they do to Dr Nagler. (Sorry, had a beer. )

 

[Vincent R]

I tried to write something else but Vincent R said it so much better (as usual!). I wish everyone would listen to him as much as they do to Dr Nagler. (Sorry, had a beer. )

Thanks. If I had something more substantial to offer, I'd consider start selling expensive courses If those neuromonics dudes can charge 500 USD for their strangle little beeping devices, I should be able to get away with 250 at least. (And I wan't to stress that this wasn't a dig at some other TT-member, hidden or openly.) If I change my name into Sanskrit and start to waffle about how westerns that has lost contact with their inner self, I should be able to push 300.

 

[erik]

My T is low right now. This evening I am going to ride my ebike 25mph for 5 miles on the trail in the loud wind to my game. Then I will play a soccer game in the heat and after go have a beer or two at a bar with my teammates. My low T, will long before then be loud T. But I will not care. I am doing what I want and having an enjoyable time. This is habituation to me (everyone is different).

Lather, Rinse and Repeat!

 

[dboy]

If I change my name into Sanskrit and start to waffle about how westerns that has lost contact with their inner self, I should be able to push 300

Ha!

I'd say stick with your current approach of an empathetic, nuanced and good humoured appraisal of the situation, although there probably ain't much money in that. You would perhaps remain appreciated by a few scattered eccentrics like myself, and maybe 50 years after your demise will be rediscovered by a historian of early tinnitus internet forums (a respected discipline in years to come) whose book on your writings will sell modestly well and establish a reputation for her. In time you would thereby come to be acknowledged as the visionary that you are.

 

[svintegrity]

@Vincent R I totally agree with your approach. Vincentasana has a nice ring to it! Those Neuromonics dudes actually charge the audiologists $2540 USD and the audiologist then tacks on about as much for his/her profit, for a grand total of $5000 - $6000 USD charged to the poor tinnitus sufferer. Then if the person with tinnitus does not improve, or gets worse, it is the clients fault, and definitely not the fault of the little Neuromonics iPod thingy. My unit is in perfectly good shape (but collecting dust) if anyone would like to buy it for a really good deal! Unfortunately, no audiologist will program it for you, because he/she will lose out on the profit. I found that out when I tried to change audiologists.

As for meditation and the like, I have been a Yoga teacher for 30 years -- got my start studying with a Swami in Kathmandu. I have also been practicing Vipassana meditation for as long. I can definitely use a Vipassana meditation approach for hyperacusis, but I find it much more difficult to meditate with tinnitus. I know you have been meditating through your tinnitus, and am wondering how you do it?!?! Perhaps I need to change my perception of what meditation is now? I am just not highly evolved enough to reach Samadhi by any means, but as a survival tool, it makes sense. You are a visionary as @dboy says, and definitely a Boddhisatva, so maybe that's the answer. Now how best to market that for habituation at a huge profit, I am not sure, but count me in.

 

[Vincent R]

@Vincent R I totally agree with your approach. Vincentasana has a nice ring to it!

Market of spiritual enlightenment retreats, here I come

Those Neuromonics dudes actually charge the audiologists $2540 USD and the audiologist then tacks on about as much for his/her profit, for a grand total of $5000 - $6000 USD charged to the poor tinnitus sufferer. Then if the person with tinnitus does not improve, or gets worse, it is the clients fault, and definitely not the fault of the little Neuromonics iPod thingy. I was actually told by someone who used to be close to the company that Neuromonics is indeed a scam. My unit is in perfectly good shape (but collecting dust) if anyone would like to buy it for a really good deal! Unfortunately, no audiologist will program it for you, because he/she will lose out on the profit. I found that out when I tried to change audiologists.

When it comes to finding possible treatments, my opinion is that @attheedgeofscience has the right ideas with his non-bullshit approach. He seems to stick to the stuff that's heavily scientific and make sure to understand it properly. Any other methodology will most likely just lead to one dead end after the other.

As for meditation and the like, I have been a Yoga teacher for 30 years -- got my start studying with a Swami in Kathmandu. I have also been practicing Vipassana meditation for as long. I can definitely use a Vipassana meditation approach for hyperacusis, but I find it much more difficult to meditate with tinnitus. I know you have been meditating through your tinnitus, and am wondering how you do it?!?!

Well, first of all I've never had the insane T you suffered from before your surgery. Honestly, I've no idea how you lived that shit down. I'm not sure I'd be able to.

Perhaps I need to change my perception of what meditation is now?

I can't say but if you wonder about the training menu I stick to, it's easy to outline. Since having T gets in the way of meditation, I try to use techniques that are as simple and essential as possible, reasoning that this offer best chances to powerful sessions. I don't bother with methods that aims for subtle states of mind, such as guided meditation, focus on the area called "The Third Eye" within Hinduism and other complicated things. I've never trained Vipassana, which I understand to be Siddharta Guatamas stuff, so I can't shed any light on that.

Simple meditation with focused awareness that includes the whole body, and then I just keep focusing no matter how it feels. My core principle is that meditation is to direct the flickering light of the consciousness, so as long as you can do that, you can meditate, T-sound or no T-sound.

That's how I do it.

The specific techniques I use are very simplistic movements or stances from Qi Gong and Tai Chi, as well as a plain, dumb excercise where I lie flat on my back and focus on sensing my body with the breathing integrated. I've tried to explain the excercise in this thread. It seems to work both in silence and with Tibetan bowls as a low background music, offering an option to the T in my sound universe.

Later on, I plan to try sitting meditation with focus on the breathing or the Om-mantra, which I consider to be more subtle techniques, to see if they works if I'm stubborn enough about it.

If I would manage to repeatedly reach a deep level of meditative trance, I'd like to use that as a preparation to selfhypnosis. Since T makes it hard to do deep hypnosis on the spot, I figure the meditative state which is more realisticly accessible perhaps could work as a backdoor. I will find out once I start to meditate more ambitiously and not just enough to get by. That will probably have to wait until I've finished other projects, though. I'm also unsure what the specific aim of the selfhypnosis should be. Sometimes, having a good idea about what part of the structure you should try to nudge can be of great importence.

I am just not highly evolved enough to reach Samadhi by any means, but as a survival tool, it makes sense.

I've no idea what will happen if the meditative trance gets deeper.

You are a visionary as @dboy says, and definitely a Boddhisatva, so maybe that's the answer.

To my understanding, Boddhisatvas are reborn in order to help others to be enlightened, and helping others has never been my main motivation. I don't even have any notion of what enlightenment may be, if it now would happen to exist for real.

Now how best to market that for habituation at a huge profit, I am not sure, but count me in.

It's not beyond question that we would be able to figure something out. If desperate T-sufferers are to put money in others pockets anyway, it could just as well be ours

 

[Dr. Nagler]

If those neuromonics dudes can charge 500 USD for their strangle little beeping devices, I should be able to get away with 250 at least.

I am no fan of Neuromonics, Vincent, but to the best of my knowledge their devices do not beep. They play music. And they don't cost 500 USD. You are off by a factor of 10 there. FWIW.

 

[Vincent R]

I am no fan of Neuromonics, Vincent, but to the best of my knowledge their devices do not beep. They play music. And they don't cost 500 USD. You are off by a factor of 10 there. FWIW.

I stand corrected, then. Indeed, it seems to be 5,000 USD. Good business, I must say. I could swear they're supposed to play four tunes pitched after a persons T, but maybe I confuse it with other sound therapies on the market.

 

[Dr. Nagler]

I stand corrected, then. Indeed, it seems to be 5,000 USD. Good business, I must say. I could swear they're supposed to play four tunes pitched after a persons T, but maybe I confuse it with other sound therapies on the market.

Well, 500 USD or 5000 USD, I personally wouldn't spend a dime on Neuromonics - but some folks say it's effective. So to each his or her own, I guess.

 

[attheedgeofscience]

I stand corrected, then.

They have different models, I do believe: Sanctuary, Haven, and Oasis. Price range is something like $1500 to $5000.

So you are not completely off...