How Long Before Habituation of Perception Kicks In?

[tinnitussufferer]

Probably three months ago. I posted about it at the time.


Well, it sure sounds a lot louder. But you are right - it's really hard to tell. So a week or so after it happened I went back to my audiologist and had a repeat pitch and loudness match performed ... because as loud as my tinnitus had been before, I couldn't imagine how it could possibly have gotten any louder. And it turns out that I was right about that. The loudness had not changed at all. It was the pitch that had changed so dramatically - my brain was just interpreting it as a change in loudness. Go figure.

did/does your tinnitus fluctuate?

theres still a chance it could change again, one way or the other.

and are you sure there were no factors involved like noise exposure, earwax removal or buildup, dental visits etc?

 

[Dr. Nagler]

I turned you offer down politely because at the time I felt that just talking about my T over lunch, will not help me overcome my tinnitus. Simple.

You weren't polite about it at all. You were rude as hell. When you posted about it later, you made a huge point about saying how polite you were - just like you are saying now.

But all that's beside the point. I offered to do whatever I could to help you in your time of need - and you turned down that offer. If somebody had made the same offer to me in my time of need, I'd have jumped at the chance. And if it didn't help, I'd have thanked the guy for caring enough to give it a shot. The last thing I'd have done is turn my back on even the most remote possibility that I could benefit from the experience. Made me wonder at that time whether you might be faking the whole thing to qualify for disability, which is why I apologized.

 

[dboy]

This is me writing in another forum several years ago: ... Anyway, perhaps reading what I have written will encourage a few people not to lose hope. That is all I am aiming for.

Thank you for your wonderful, timely, and uplifting post.

Just a quick observation, and rather an obvious one. What made this post seem wonderful and uplifting was that it displayed humility and sensitivity. It did not carry any covert implication of blame or inadequacy . It was a story of triumph over suffering that did not contain elements of preening or self-congratulation or argumentativeness. It felt like it was genuinely trying to help. Thanks Sleaford Mod.

 

[Dr. Nagler]

did/does your tinnitus fluctuate?

No, not really. It does seem to get a good bit louder after I eat Thai food, but that always settles back down by noon the following day. Other than that, my tinnitus had been relatively constant for some twenty years until the exacerbation three months ago.

theres still a chance it could change again, one way or the other.

Sure, there's always a chance. There's a chance it could get better. There's a chance it could get worse. But since there's not a damned thing I can do about it either way, I've decided to not worry about it. Now back in 1994-5 before I did TRT, I worried about it all the time. I was sick with worry back then.

and are you sure there were no factors involved like noise exposure, earwax removal or buildup, dental visits etc?

I sure as hell thought about it a lot - but I couldn't come up with anything.

 

[dan]

You weren't polite about it at all. You were rude as hell. When you posted about it later, you made a huge point about saying how polite you were - just like you are saying now.

Oh suddenly your memory is coming back....ok.
I was never rude, I simply said no thanks....but Im really not in the mood right now for shit tossing with you doctor- lol.

 

[Dr. Nagler]

Oh suddenly your memory is coming back....ok.
I was never rude, I simply said no thanks....

Right. You couldn't possibly be rude. Rude is not part of who you are. My mistake.

 

[dan]

Yeah thats right, you are finally being honest for a change.

 

[amandine]

Oh suddenly your memory is coming back....ok.
I was never rude, I simply said no thanks....but Im really not in the mood right now for shit tossing with you doctor- lol.

Dan I am sorry to say this BUT if someone who had experience and was knowledgeable about T and who maybe had a way to help me - offered to fly to me and help me without as well any financial cost to myself - well I am sorry Dan but I would jump as high as I could to grab that offer and would have said a profound YES PLEASE AND THANK YOU straight away. If it worked then I would have shouted that out to the heavens and if it didn't work then at least I would have tried it and could say honestly that it didn't work.
If you rejected the offer without trying it then you really have no right to say that it doesn't work or that Dr. Nagler's therapy doesn't work because you have no idea apart from your own pre-conceived opinion.
Sorry Dan I really am and I really don't want to argue with you - that is the last thing that I want to do so please accept this post with my friendship but I just felt compelled to reply to it.
If this is really the case, that Dr. Nagler offered to fly out to you at his own expense and using his time up, and you rejected that offer, then Dan I am at a loss as to why you would reject such an offer.
Maybe you could tell us why you rejected that offer.
Please Dan don't get angry with me for saying this, I am just confused why you would reject an offer of help. You can't know that something won't work before you have tried it unless it was an intrusive operation type thing where maybe you would be afraid of the consequences physically. However this was nothing of the sort as I don't see how Dr. Nagler's therapy could have made you worse so I don't understand why you would reject help like that. You said you rejected it as you could not see how having lunch with Dr. Nagler would help you. Was it only an offer to have lunch with you? Did Dr. Nagler offer to pay to fly to you just to have lunch with you? Don't understand....surely he offered to fly out to you in order to help you further than that? I mean surely he has better things to do. Don't you think that perhaps you could have accepted his offer to see what happened next? So confusing........as for me, well as I said, I would jump on that opportunity.........how many people have had such an offer? and how many would reject it? confusing........
Whether you were rude or not is hardly important here. What is important here is that you had an offer of help from him which you said is true........why did you reject that offer of help? please help me to understand that as such an offer seems to me to be very generous and not attacking you. I am utterly confused by this and why you would reject this offer........please........

 

[dan]

Dan I am sorry to say this BUT if someone who had experience and was knowledgeable about T and who maybe had a way to help me - offered to fly to me and help me without as well any financial cost to myself - well I am sorry Dan but I would jump as high as I could to grab that offer and would have said a profound YES PLEASE AND THANK YOU straight away. If it worked then I would have shouted that out to the heavens and if it didn't work then at least I would have tried it and could say honestly that it didn't work.
If you rejected the offer without trying it then you really have no right to say that it doesn't work or that Dr. Nagler's therapy doesn't work because you have no idea apart from your own pre-conceived opinion.
Sorry Dan I really am and I really don't want to argue with you - that is the last thing that I want to do so please accept this post with my friendship but I just felt compelled to reply to it.
If this is really the case, that Dr. Nagler offered to fly out to you at his own expense and using his time up, and you rejected that offer, then Dan I am at a loss as to why you would reject such an offer.
Maybe you could tell us why you rejected that offer.
Please Dan don't get angry with me for saying this, I am just confused why you would reject an offer of help. You can't know that something won't work before you have tried it unless it was an intrusive operation type thing where maybe you would be afraid of the consequences physically. However this was nothing of the sort as I don't see how Dr. Nagler's therapy could have made you worse so I don't understand why you would reject help like that. You said you rejected it as you could not see how having lunch with Dr. Nagler would help you. Was it only an offer to have lunch with you? Did Dr. Nagler offer to pay to fly to you just to have lunch with you? Don't understand....surely he offered to fly out to you in order to help you further than that? I mean surely he has better things to do. Don't you think that perhaps you could have accepted his offer to see what happened next? So confusing........as for me, well as I said, I would jump on that opportunity.........how many people have had such an offer? and how many would reject it? confusing........

@amandine , his offer wasnt free TRT, it was just to sit down in a restaurant and talk about tinnitus. If it was free TRT, believe me, at the time, I would jump on it.

 

[Dr. Nagler]

@amandine , his offer wasnt free TRT, it was just to sit down in a restaurant and talk about tinnitus. If it was free TRT, believe me, at the time, I would jump on it.

Just so we're all on the same page here ...

My offer was to meet with you for an hour or two over lunch at a hotel in Toronto to talk with you about your tinnitus and to see how I might be of assistance.. To be very honest here, at the time I thought you were the biggest bullshitter I had ever encountered since I first came to the tinnitus boards. I thought you were magnifying the entire thing in order to qualify for disability. And so did a number of other people. Anyway, there is no way in the world I was going to offer you free TRT without first getting to know you face-to-face. Had the encounter over lunch been a positive one, the offer for free TRT would have shortly followed, But you never me that chance.

 

[dan]

Just so we're all on the same page here ...

My offer was to meet with you for an hour or two over lunch to help you in any way I could. To be very honest here, at the time I thought you were the biggest bullshitter I had ever encountered since I first came to the tinnitus boards. I thought you were magnifying the entire thing in order to qualify for disability. And so did a number of other people. Anyway, there is no way in the world I was going to offer you free TRT without first getting to know you face-to-face. Had the encounter over lunch been a positive one, the offer for free TRT would have shortly followed, But you never me that chance.

Oh so what you wanted to see was if I was bullshitting my way about my severe tinnitus! Gee thanks!
So that was your real pretense...Im sure glad I made the right choice, since FREE TRT was not even mentioned at the time and I had no way of reading your twisted mind.

 

[Dr. Nagler]

did/does your tinnitus fluctuate?
theres still a chance it could change again, one way or the other.
and are you sure there were no factors involved like noise exposure, earwax removal or buildup, dental visits etc?

I found the link where I wrote about my experience. Here it is ...

https://www.tinnitustalk.com/threads/follow-up-on-techniques-protocol-you-used-to-re-habituate.8724/

 

[Dr. Nagler]

Oh so what you wanted to see was if I was bullshitting my way about my severe tinnitus! Gee thank!
So that was your real pretense...Im sure glad I made the right choice, since FREE TRT was not even mentioned at the time and I had no way of reading your twisted mind.

I have always treated 18% of my patients at no charge. "18" is the gematria equivalent of life - and TRT gave my life back to me. You were acting like a jerk back then - just like you are acting like a jerk right now. And I was not going to offer you free TRT until I had satisfied myself that you were sincere. Moreover I was willing to foot the bill for a trip to meet you in Toronto for lunch to find out.

The only reason anybody knows even now that I treat 18% of my patients at no charge is that I got sick and tired of being accused by some of our resident Tinnitus Talk "gentlemen" of being in it for the money. So I explained that I wanted to see enough paying patients to meet my expenses, treat 18% of my patients for free, and have some left over to donate to tinnitus research. I even went so far as to give a full financial disclosure.

 

[dan]

See you never told me that! You did not say - look I want to see you personally and determine if you are sincere and then offer you free TRT. All you said was - I will fly to Toronto we will do lunch.
To that I answered, I really dont think simply talking will do me any good so just save your airfare money. If you thought that was rude of me for saying that then Im sorry.
That is Gods honest truth, I swear on my life.
I have nothing further to say really on this subject.

 

[Dr. Nagler]

See you never told me that!

Of course not! Like I said, you were acting like a jerk, and I thought you were a bullshitter. The last thing I was going to do was tell you what I had in mind before we met eye-to-eye and spoke for a while. I might be generous. But I'm not stooooopid!

 

[dan]

Of course not! Like I said, you were acting like a jerk, and I thought you were a bullshitter. The last thing I was going to do was tell you what I had in mind before we met eye-to-eye and spoke for a while. I might be generous. But I'm not stooooopid!

I never acted like a jerk! If you got proof, do show it, its all in the archives and our private messages.
dont appreciate you lying about me.
So badically to answer Amandine's concern - Dr.Nagler never offered me actual therapy, it was just a test to see if I was a bullshitter. Gosh flying 2000 miles to see if somebody was a bullshitter....would of been easier to invite me to your office and do a double loudness match on me to see i was genuine.

 

[tinnitussufferer]

I never acted like a jerk! If you got proof, do show it, its all in the archives and our private messages.
dont appreciate you lying about me.
So badically to answer Amandine's concern - Dr.Nagler never offered me actual therapy, it was just a test to see if I was a bullshitter. Gosh flying 2000 miles to see if somebody was a bullshitter....would of been easier to invite me to your office and do a double loudness match on me to see i was genuine.

he did offer you therapy, he just said so. But only if you were genuine. Do you expect him to offer it even if youre not?

 

[Dr. Nagler]

So badically to answer Amandine's concern - Dr.Nagler never offered me actual therapy, it was just a test to see if I was a bullshitter. Gosh flying 2000 miles to see if somebody was a bullshitter....would of been easier to invite me to your office and do a double loudness match on me to see i was genuine.

I would not have offered to fly 2000 miles at my own expense to see if you were a bullshitter if I were not prepared to offer you free TRT should I happily discover that you weren't.

 

[dan]

he did offer you therapy, he just said so. But only if you were genuine. Do you expect him to offer it even if youre not?

No he did NOT offer me free tinnitus retraining therapy - read the post. He said IF he were satisfied that I was not a bullshitter....

and I am just wondering if you ever met a person on a tinnitus board that pretended to suffer from tinnitus???? I mean really for fks sakes man, get real.

 

[dan]

I would not have offered to fly 2000 miles at my own expense to see if you were a bullshitter if I were not prepared to offer you free TRT should I happily discover that you weren't.

Well sorry for not reading yout mind there...I just got tinnitus and prety much in shock and I am supposed to know there is a dr.negler offering 18% free trt? get real.

 

[MattK]

Of course the old magic TRT huh, well we all know were this conversation is headed!

Well believe it or not, Rich, this is a thread specifically about habituation which makes TRT a relevant topic.

What I don't get is why people who claim to be so sick and of hearing about habituation can't seem to stay out of topics that are specifically about it. I mean, would it make sense if I said, "Man I'm so sick and tired of being around drunks... anyway, I'm heading to the pub"?

 

[Dr. Nagler]

Well sorry for not reading yout mind there...I just got tinnitus and prety much in shock and I am supposed to know there is a dr.negler offering 18% free trt? get real.

All you had to know was that there was a Dr. Nagler who was willing to fly to Toronto at his own expense to meet you and see if he could be of help to you in some way. And the fact that you couldn't be bothered pretty much says it all.

 

[MattK]

All you had to know was that there was a Dr. Nagler who was willing to fly to Toronto at his own expense to meet you and see if he could be of help to you in some way. And the fact that you couldn't be bothered pretty much says it all.

I couldn't agree more. At my onset, I would've loved an offer like that. Even if I thought there was only a 1% chance you could help I would've taken that offer especially if it was at no cost to me.

 

[dan]

I couldn't agree more. At my onset, I would've loved an offer like that. Even if I thought there was only a 1% chance you could help I would've taken that offer especially if it was at no cost to me.

Well you would of loved. I did not! Is that a crime now?

How can you judge anybody? Do you know what I was going thru at the time?
Maybe I was so low that I could not even look anybody in the eye?
I dont think you really know what severe tinnitus can do to a person.
Like I said, I was not in any condition to have lunch with anybody and I did not want to break down
and friggin cry my soul out in a public place. I was just released from the psych ward too...
If Dr.Nagler invited me for therapy in Atlanta- I would most likely have gone....but thst wasnt the case- it was lunch.

So why dont you think before making judgement. Can we put this subject to bed now?

 

[RichL]

My tinnitus has not changed since it spiked. The spike was not temporary at all. What happened is that I habituated to the new tinnitus. You are wrong when you say you cannot habituate in 1.5 months. If you originally habituated doing TRT, you can habituate to a new tinnitus sound (in this case, a permanent spike) using TRT in relatively short order.

We have an advertising campaign for a very popular beer, (Tui) which has turned very iconic here in NZ, they are littered all around the country on the side of our highways and country roads.



It sort of fits in with this comment @Dr Nagler

Habituate in two weeks........Yeah Right.

 

[Dr. Nagler]

If Dr.Nagler invited me for therapy in Atlanta- I would most likely have gone....but thst wasnt the case- it was lunch.

I did better than offer you therapy in Atlanta. I offered to come to you in Toronto. Moreover, I have a very good friend in Newmarket who could have done all the necessary testing the very next day. And I could have done your TRT counseling and instrument fitting the day after that. All in Toronto! All at no charge to you whatsoever. The only thing left would have been your follow-up TRT counseling (again at no charge to you), which I would have done over the phone or by Skype - just like I do the follow-up counseling for all of my patients who live outside the metro-Atlanta area. But if you couldn't bring yourself to meet me over lunch to talk about your tinnitus, then why in the world would I be interested in devoting the time and effort to making all that happen for you? It makes no sense! Which is why you never got an offer from me for TRT at all.

Can we put this subject to bed now?

You bet!

 

[Christian78]

I don't think it's Uru!

I do not know what resulted in my spike. And it was indeed scary; it was scary as hell because my tinnitus had been stable for twenty years, and I was worried sick that it wouldn't settle back down.

But here's the thing. It didn't settle back down. What happened is that I habituated to the spike. And now I'm just fine. My tinnitus has changed markedly - but I am just fine.

i think there was no permanent spike... again i might be wrong...but you were so scared to try trobalt and now it is like nothing happen, so i think spike is gone because you were in agony and now it is forgotten

 

[Christian78]

why would he poke fun? he is a distinguished doctor who posts under his real name and shows his identity. He has nothing to hide and much to lose.

Oh you know he is distinguished, how do you know, have you checked all his diplomas and been to see what he has done.... how many publication he has published?

distinguished doctor is Daniel Jeanmonod!

 

[RichL]

Well believe it or not, Rich, this is a thread specifically about habituation which makes TRT a relevant topic.

What I don't get is why people who claim to be so sick and of hearing about habituation can't seem to stay out of topics that are specifically about it. I mean, would it make sense if I said, "Man I'm so sick and tired of being around drunks... anyway, I'm heading to the pub"?

Oh I'm not sick of hearing about habituation at all, in fact, I agree, habituation is a real thing, I habituated to my mild T 20 odd years ago, even though it took probably two years to do it!

I will let you figure out the rest!

 

[Dr. Nagler]

Habituate in two weeks........Yeah Right.

No, wrong. Nobody habituates in two weeks.

But re-habituate using TRT in two weeks after having successfully habituated over eight to twelve months using TRT the first time around? Absolutely. Like re-learning to ride a bike.