I Will Not Live with My Tinnitus

[threefirefour]

??? Those studies were published in peer reviewed journals. My very first post in that Stats thread links to a dissertation that cites a bunch of those studies. Are you saying you are more qualified to judge scientific research than the academic advisor and the external reviewers of the author of that dissertation?


We don't have to use words like "many" - we have actual statistics about this in the Stats thread. According to the most pessimistic study done with older adults, at least a quarter fully recover. The study about victims of a terrorist attack (many of whom had ruptured eardrums) and about young soldiers indicate that over 70% recover. So there is that.

Sorry he took it out on you. He's just triggered that you don't follow his model of thought.

Of course he thinks he's more competent than these silly scientists. He read a WHOLE book!

 

[Tinker Bell]

I am curious about these recovery stats. I would very much expect tinnitus to resolve for individuals if their ruptured eardrum healed. Did individuals in these studies have hearing loss? Again, tinnitus can resolve if hearing loss resolves.

I am wondering if there are any studies of tinnitus improving for individuals with no hearing loss.

 

[Chris Holland]

Those studies were published in peer reviewed journals.

Ok.

My very first post in that Stats thread links to a dissertation that cites a bunch of those studies

I'm not arguing this research is true not able to confirm it neither nor do I know the variables involved.

Are you saying you are more qualified to judge scientific research than the academic advisor and the external reviewers of the author of that dissertation?

No, never did.

We don't have to use words like "many" - we have actual statistics about this in the Stats thread. According to the most pessimistic study done with older adults, at least a quarter fully recover. The study about victims of a terrorist attack (many of whom had ruptured eardrums) and about young soldiers indicate that over 70% recover. So there is that.

That would be wonderful, let's hope it's true.
And if by chance it does not work like that at least there is habituation.

Not to stomp on your parade but don't you find it odd that the only studies on this are studies conducted on terrorist attack victims and soldiers? You would think with something as prevalent as tinnitus there would be more out there yet there is not. Also who can tell whether these people actually recovered or habituated, on top of that who is to say noise induced the tinnitus and not stress or a combination of factors?

Papers are nice and this one I understand it's appeal but there is just so many variables to consider here that by no means could this be considered as waterproof evidence nor is this valid for all causes of tinnitus (this is my opinion) yet you present it at every possible occasion, maybe you're trying to convince yourself here but this ''research'' and corresponding conclusions of yours I label as pseudo scientific, not the actual paper you are quoting.

 

[threefirefour]

Ok.



I'm not arguing this research is true not able to confirm it neither nor do I know the variables involved.



No, never did.



That would be wonderful, let's hope it's true.
And if by chance it does not work like that at least there is habituation.

Not to stomp on your parade but don't you find it odd that the only studies on this are studies conducted on terrorist attack victims and soldiers? You would think with something as prevalent as tinnitus there would be more out there yet there is not. Also who can tell whether these people actually recovered or habituated, on top of that who is to say noise induced the tinnitus and not stress or a combination of factors.

Papers are nice and this one I understand it's appeal but there is just so many variables to consider here that by no means could this be considered as waterproof evidence in my opinion yet you present it at every possible occasion, maybe your trying to convince yourself here but this ''research'' of yours I label as pseudo scientific.

The only explanation is that you don't understand the definition is pseudo science. That's science that seeks to prove its own hypothesis. His research is perfectly valid, even if it has some missing variables. So you know what to do then? You research those variables. If you actually, oh I don't know, read the paper, you would have read that the volume actually reduced. It asks the question of sudden noise onset tinnitus, and answers it.

 

[threefirefour]

I am curious about these recovery stats. I would very much expect tinnitus to resolve for individuals if their ruptured eardrum healed. Did individuals in these studies have hearing loss? Again, tinnitus can resolve if hearing loss resolves.

I am wondering if there are any studies of tinnitus improving for individuals with no hearing loss.

Good question that's what I would like to know. Would be extremely helpful for me

In my experience, no unless the cause itself is being fixed.

 

[Tinker Bell]

The only explanation is that you don't understand the definition is pseudo science. That's science that seeks to prove its own hypothesis. His research is perfectly valid, even if it has some missing variables. So you know what to do then? You research those variables. If you actually, oh I don't know, read the paper, you would have read that the volume actually reduced. It asks the question of sudden noise onset tinnitus, and answers it.

I read the paper a long time ago and do not remember, did the individuals have any hearing loss? If they did, then the study and its evidence of recovery is likely only applicable to those with hearing loss.

You're right, too. If there is an actual cause that can be fixed, then the odds of recovery are higher.

 

[GregCA]

And if by chance it does not work like that at least there is habituation.

Not always. Scientific papers/studies often state, when analyzing success rates for a given therapy, that a certain percentage of patients are unable to habituate (they explain that it's one of the reasons they are investigating a particular therapy). You'll find them on pubmed.

It is not particularly surprising, as logic would dictate that some stimuli are easier to habituate than others. When I got married my wedding ring bothered me at first. Now I don't think about it anymore. If that ring was glowing hot and burning my finger 24/7, I would probably not have habituated still.

We also know from testimonies of T veterans who come in here that it's quite possible to not be habituated after decades of T.

Downplaying the opportunities to habituate is as misleading as pretending that habituation always exists as a fallback plan.

 

[threefirefour]

I read the paper a long time ago and do not remember, did the individuals have any hearing loss? If they did, then the study and its evidence of recovery is likely only applicable to those with hearing loss.

You're right, too. If there is an actual cause that can be fixed, then the odds of recovery are higher.

Good question. I assume that because the tinnitus was caused by an explosion, that there was some hearing loss involved. If you mean before that moment, then there's no saying but considering a lot were in the military, it's likely (but we can't tell if they're part of that 70% or not)

 

[GregCA]

You're right, too. If there is an actual cause that can be fixed, then the odds of recovery are higher.

Absolutely. A few studies analyze the changes in T after a stapedotomy is performed on patients suffering from otosclerosis. The % of patients whose T disappears is about 50%.
I was in the unlucky set, unfortunately... but it's not super surprising to me since I had mixed losses going in, so my chances were probably much lower than 50/50.

 

[Chris Holland]

Not always. Scientific papers/studies often state, when analyzing success rates for a given therapy, that a certain percentage of patients are unable to habituate (they explain that it's one of the reasons they are investigating a particular therapy).

Those studies (on TRT or similar I assume) state that the specific treatment did not work, this does not mean these people will not habituate eventually in some shape or form.

It is not particularly surprising, as logic would dictate that some stimuli are easier to habituate than others. When I got married my wedding ring bothered me at first. Now I don't think about it anymore. If that ring was glowing hot and burning my finger 24/7, I would probably not have habituated still.

Yes, I agree certain stimuli are easier to habituate to.

We also know from testimonies of T veterans who come in here that it's quite possible to not be habituated after decades of T.

There are also plenty of testimonies of people habituating after 20 years, this is kind of a glass half empty or half full analogy ...

Downplaying the opportunities to habituate is as misleading as pretending that habituation always exists as a fallback plan.

Habituation is not a fallback plan, as it seems of yet it is the only plan if tinnitus is here to stay.
Also considering some of the stories of habituation here from people with extremely loud tinnitus apparently habituation can also occur for the most severe of cases.

 

[threefirefour]

Habituation is not a fallback plan, as it seems of yet it is the only plan unfortunately.

If you look up about 8 miles, you could see his point whizzing over your head. He's saying that when people get tinnitus, they try to reduce it, and if they can't they rely on habituation as a fallback plan. He's saying we can't pretend it's always the fallback plan.

 

[Carlyi]

But your ringing has not gone away?

Not yet, but my ringing is slowly getting lower, it takes a while to heal because the nerves and muscles around my ears have been compressed for so long. I'm patient and have trust it wil go. What exactly is wrong with your jaw? if it's just the popping noises i'm sure it can be healed.

 

[GregCA]

Those studies (on TRT or similar I assume) state that the specific treatment did not work, this does not mean these people will not habituate eventually in some shape or form.

No, your assumption is incorrect. It's studies about all kinds of therapies (TRT, but also tDCS, rTMS, etc...) - they explain (generally in their introduction chapter) that because some people can't habituate, we need to find a cure.

There are also plenty of testimonies of people habituating after 20 years, this is kind of a glass half empty or half full analogy ...

It has nothing to do with half empty, half full. The existence of people who habituated (even with loud T) is not questioned. The fact that these people exist does not preclude the existence of the other kind of people who haven't (and perhaps won't) habituate.

Habituation is not a fallback plan, as it seems of yet it is the only plan if tinnitus is here to stay.

A plan is something you can execute on. As mentioned above, and described by many studies/researchers, it is not always possible.

Also considering some of the stories of habituation here from people with extremely loud tinnitus apparently habituation can also occur for the most severe of cases.

Nobody ever argued about that. You seem to be confusing "Some people never habituate" to "Nobody ever habituated". These are 2 different logical statements.

 

[Chris Holland]

@GregCA

Let me ask you something, are you afraid that you will not be able to habituate?

Because I get what you are saying as to some people not being able to but it seems more like a mindset than anything which determines the persons succeeding or failing, of course history of depression can play a role too.
I kind of get the feeling all this resistance here is due to people being afraid they are not able to habituate rather than actually opposing the idea ...

 

[threefirefour]

@GregCA

Let me ask you something, are you afraid that you will not be able to habituate?

Because I get what you are saying as to some people not being able to but it seems more like a mindset than anything which determines the persons succeeding or failing, of course history of depression can play a role too.
I kind of get the feeling all this resistance here is due to people being afraid they are not able to habituate rather than actually opposing the idea ...

Well then you clearly haven't been around the forum, or many at all for that matter. Our head mod Markku is extremely pro-habituation but claims not to be able to. He's not the only one either. A mod at TSMB used to ban and censor anyone who attacked the idea, and recently came out saying that he hasn't habituated after decades and is struggling hard. Nice try though.

 

[GregCA]

@GregCA

Let me ask you something, are you afraid that you will not be able to habituate?

No, I'm not afraid.

Because I get what you are saying as to some people not being able to but it seems more like a mindset than anything which determines the persons succeeding or failing, of course history of depression can play a role too.

I have no history of depression.
It's not a mindset, it's a fact reported by many studies.

I kind of get the feeling all this resistance here is due to people being afraid they are not able to habituate rather than actually opposing the idea ...

It's not an idea, it's a fact, reported by many studies. We don't "think" that people aren't habituating after decades, we "witness it" (in this very forum, if you do bother to look). It has nothing to do with what we think.

 

[brownbear]

Would people concede that dwelling on the fact that some people won't habituate may adversely affect your ability to habituate?

 

[Chris Holland]

I have no history of depression.

I was not suggesting that you have.

It's not a mindset, it's a fact reported by many studies.

There are many things being mentioned in studies, does not make it all facts, researchers barely understand the mechanisms of tinnitus as it is so I tend not to dwell on these studies.

We don't "think" that people aren't habituating after decades, we "witness it" (in this very forum, if you do bother to look).

Because they have not habituated does not mean that they can't it only means they have not ...
I hope they will find some relief eventually as well, be it the form of a cure or habituation.

 

[Chris Holland]

Would people concede that dwelling on the fact that some people won't habituate may adversely affect your ability to habituate?

Thank you

 

[threefirefour]

Would people concede that dwelling on the fact that some people won't habituate may adversely affect your ability to habituate?

Yeah that makes sense, but it doesn't make the fact that some people won't any less of a fact.

 

[Luman]

No, what you need is professional help.
This forum is really a cesspool of negativity and truly lost souls.

I feel for the people that are suffering I really do but this forum just seems to perpetuate anxiety, pseudo scientific bullshit remedies, horror stories and complete despair. This girl is talking about suicide and you feel the need to again spew your aversion to habituation and any other notion other than some miracle cure that just is not coming.
It's become clear to me that you and a few other members here are hellbent on suffering together and anyone with any positive experience is attacked and questioned. This forum is poisonous, there are millions and millions of people in the world with tinnitus and yet almost none of them are on forums like this.

Habituation is not giving up or simply accepting tinnitus, in many cases it means you are not even consciously aware of your tinnitus 95% of the time. Now I don't know your personal situation or that of others filled with negativity nor do I know what the sound or volume of your t is, only thing I am certain of is that in the real world there are many people who have tinnitus and that have habituated to the extent as I mentioned above. From my personal experience I have spoken to almost a dozen people with this experience, real people and not desperate anecdotal posts online. Anyone can write something online and usually people with positive experiences do not.

All this nonsense about certain drugs causing tinnitus, TMJ causing tinnitus, ear infections, hearing loss and the list goes on and on and on. The main thing everyone here seems to have in common is extreme anxiety and in many cases history of depression, guess what this is all closely interlinked with tinnitus from recent research maybe, just maybe the tinnitus is a symptom of chronic stress and anxiety and the above is just the straw that broke the camels back. Maybe your negativity is not even your own free choice but the effect your tinnitus has on your limbic and autonomic nervous system and you are stuck in a loop blocking you from habituation ... Just a wild guess.

I really tried with this forum and I hoped to find some relief or sensible information but it seems like all there is here is negativity and the unwillingness to look at the problem in a different light. The few that actually try to help like Michael, Fishbone and Glynis being the exceptions. Just one look at the success stories shows the problem, every one sharing success through habituation gets questioned and shitted on. Any suggestion to medication which can help with the anxiety gets shot down due to being ototoxic (guess what pretty much everything is ototoxic).

Don't feel the need to reply to me, I am done with this forum and the negativity it perpetuates.
I wish everyone the best on their road to recovery, I truly hope everyone here can find the strength.

Please don't leave the forums, it is important that those of us who believe that habituation is currently the best viable option for tinnitus relief have a place to discuss, give advice, ask opinions, offer support, etc.

It is a shame that more research isn't being done, due to lack of funding, and that is a different and very important matter, but we can have relief through habituation, and support scientific research as well.

 

[brownbear]

@threefirefour . Of course it doesn't change that fact but why would you want to increase your chances of non habituation?

 

[threefirefour]

Please don't leave the forums

That's kind of the ultimate goal. People leave when their tinnitus goes away or they habituate. Hopefully when one or the other happens this guy can fu- er... I mean Leave.

@threefirefour . Of course it doesn't change that fact but why would you want to increase your chances of non habituation?

I didn't say we want to. I'm just saying it's a fact. Just because people wouldn't want to decrease their chance of habituation doesn't mean they should ignore the facts. With tinnitus you want to be as educated as possible.

 

[GregCA]

There are many things being mentioned in studies, does not make it all facts, researchers barely understand the mechanisms of tinnitus as it is so I tend not to dwell on these studies.

These facts are reported as observations, not as hypotheses.
If you don't trust medical/clinical/scientific studies, then I don't really see much of a point in discussing any further, as we have very different sources for information we trust.

Because they have not habituated does not mean that they can't it only means they have not ...

This is true logic wise, yet completely useless: you could also claim that someone who lost both his legs could still regrow them. Every day before he dies he still has a chance of it happening. It's a true statement too, but just as useless.
This argumentation is getting ridiculous, so I'll happily bow out of it.

 

[brownbear]

So like I said, some people seem to dwell on this fact more than others. Nothing to do with how much you know about tinnitus

 

[GregCA]

Would people concede that dwelling on the fact that some people won't habituate may adversely affect your ability to habituate?

Absolutely.

 

[Contrast]

habituation doesn't mean they should ignore the facts. .

 

[glynis]

I think the level we can habituate to is also apart of habituating mentally too!

We could cope emotionally but find the sound tough going.

We could cope with the sound at certain times of the day but emotionally worn out by sound and emotion with lack of sleep or coping with Jobs,parenting etc .

All round habituation with the use of hearing aids ,white noise generators and sound therapy.

Habituation in mind ,sound ,coping with life and enjoying life.
Love glynis x

 

[Chris Holland]

These facts are reported as observations, not as hypotheses.
If you don't trust medical/clinical/scientific studies, then I don't really see much of a point in discussing any further, as we have very different sources for information we trust.

Observations of a subjective phenomenon and I trust scientific studies to an extent, not as the absolute truth.
Not too long ago tinnitus was labeled as auditory hallucinations, that turned out to be wrong as well.
Science changes on a day to day basis, I do not take something for fact solely based on (small) studies.

This is true logic wise, yet completely useless: you could also claim that someone who lost both his legs could still regrow them. Every day before he dies he still has a chance of it happening. It's a true statement too, but just as useless.

Yeah ... not quite sure about the legs regrowing having anything to do with logic or tinnitus habituation but sure ...
And ''natural'' habituation does not happen to everyone so ''waiting' for it just might be the issue here and this is why I say mindset (I believe) plays a large role, in some cases ''mindset'' is influenced by psychological disorder and yes in these cases habituation might be near impossible, in any other case it seems not.

Then again, who knows, neither I nor you have all or any of the answers.

 

[GregCA]

@threefirefour . Of course it doesn't change that fact but why would you want to increase your chances of non habituation?

Stating this fact isn't meant to increase chances of non habituation, it's to promote attention (and funding) towards a path that can lead to a cure.
Hiding this fact takes away attention/funding for a real cure, and as such, is a disservice to the community. That's where the problem is, beyond what each individual's sensitivity to placebo/nocebo effects is.

The truth is inconvenient and sucks of course, but putting our heads in the sand is a sure way to prevent actual progress.
Like anything, if you don't admit that there is a problem, you won't be getting it fixed.