Inner Ear Hair Cell Regeneration — Maybe We Can Know More

[Reinier]

If hair cells really capture all that is needed with ones actual ability to hear sound, then hearing aids should completely solve the problem?

Why do you conclude that? If there is hair cell loss, a hearing aid also will not fill the gaps enough to restore hearing. It still will be a poor substitute.
I am not sure if hair cell loss is not so common in people with hearing loss.
Also depends on levels of acoustic trauma. I would be surprise if not a lot of hair cells in my inner ear have been destroyed with this one extremely loud explosion. I can only speculate.
But I agree with you that this Prof. Charles Liberman is doing very important research and discoveries. I am also exited about the research he and his team does. A lot of hearing problems could be related to nerve damage.

 

[Nick Pyzik]

Why do you conclude that? If there is hair cell loss, a hearing aid also will not fill the gaps enough to restore hearing. It still will be a poor substitute.
I am not sure if hair cell loss is not so common in people with hearing loss.
Also depends on levels of acoustic trauma. I would be surprise if not a lot of hair cells in my inner ear have been destroyed with this one extremely loud explosion. I can only speculate.
But I agree with you that this Prof. Charles Liberman is doing very important research and discoveries. I am also exited about the research he and his team does. A lot of hearing problems could be related to nerve damage.

I'm not going to agree or disagree with what you have to say Reinier. My opinion is my opinion.

Can you explain to me how you are experiencing your hearing issues as of right now?

 

[jdjd09]

because this is all very, very new technology and you really don't want to mess with genetic tech in humans until you're very sure how it works and what it's going to do.

I'll be excited about hearing regeneration and novel tinnitus treatments once they have been proven to work in a large number of humans. Until then, I am only excited about them from the perspective of the interesting things that the work is teaching us about ourselves.

You probably already said this, but you don't have hearing loss do you? In any case, one can never FULLY understand medicine. Most medicines out there have some unknown risks, but they were studies so much that the chances are small for unknowns.

If they would push harder to do animal model research, then they could hopefully get some human trials going. I just get very tired of researchers just pumping out research papers, but then the research goes apsoultely no where.

 

[Reinier]

I'm not going to agree or disagree with what you have to say Reinier.

For me it is not so much as agree or disagree. I do not have any medical background.
I just would like to learn and think about the different points of view. Gain knowledge and understanding.
I can understand both hair cell loss and "hidden hearing loss". The latter makes a lot of sense to me. Especially the part of diminished hearing in noisy environments.

Can you explain to me how you are experiencing your hearing issues as of right now?

Emotionally I still am struggling.
No emotional attachment with music at all any more. Now I use music to mask the tinnitus. Elevator music!
Music I used to appreciate, just evoke memories what it used to be like before the incident. Sometimes I get angry and want to kick myself that I still can not accept something that is not going to change. By not accepting I make my life (and life of my family) hell. It is so illogical.
I try to use this "anger energy" to focus on understanding biology/research documents, etc..

Physically: Many of the trade marks of hidden hearing loss apply to my situation.
Also because of my hyperacusis I am still not able to "be around people". People still talk to loud for me and it is exhausting. Talking to one person can often be to much. I don't like to talk myself, because my own voice hinders me. I still do not want to leave home. Even after more than one year after the acoustic trauma. This does not bode well for my future.

This situation is so unimaginable that I stopped explaining it to people that have not had similar experiences. I accept that people can not understand. (And sometimes do not believe this can be an existing condition! "This can't be true.... This is just too weird..... They can't do anything for you?" Etc.... ).
I know many people on this forum do understand.
Sorry for ranting.

 

[bill 112]

I'm in the same boat as you @Reinier

I will never accept this,there's no way a human being is expected to accept a condition as life destroying as this,it's impossible!

So I just crawl through everyday waiting on a big breakthrough,it's the only hope I have left.Liberman will be instrumental in finding answers to these problems as what Nick is saying is most likely correct.Im sure haircells have a role to play but they are nowhere near as important as people make out that they are,synapses and auditory fibres ultimately will be the culprit.

 

[jdjd09]

I'm in the same boat as you @Reinier

I will never accept this,there's no way a human being is expected to accept a condition as life destroying as this,it's impossible!

So I just crawl through everyday waiting on a big breakthrough,it's the only hope I have left.Liberman will be instrumental in finding answers to these problems as what Nick is saying is most likely correct.Im sure haircells have a role to play but they are nowhere near as important as people make out that they are,synapses and auditory fibres ultimately will be the culprit.

@bill 112 , are you still going to do the stem cell thing soon? Remember you said you going to go for it in a post I saw somewhere on here.

 

[Reinier]

Im sure haircells have a role to play but they are nowhere near as important as people make out that they are,synapses and auditory fibres ultimately will be the culprit.

When I look at a depiction of our hearing "system" I keep thinking that it could be less problematic to change/regenerate nerves/synapses compared to regenerate hair cells. Ignorance can be bliss .
Perhaps a more knowledgeable person will tell me this is simply not the case. Than I like to know why. But I do think in any case the fibres/synapses are more accessible than hair cells that reside inside the cochlea.
Most of all, what research into hidden hearing loss discovers makes so much sense to me and the effects are so recognisable.
Thank you all for the support!

 

[bill 112]

@bill 112 , are you still going to do the stem cell thing soon? Remember you said you going to go for it in a post I saw somewhere on here.

I'm still looking into it Jd but it won't be at Stemcells21 that much I can tell you.I found the owners Facebook and done a lot of digging,if there ever was a crook he is most certainly one!Nice little clues in the comments of his posts

 

[Nick Pyzik]

@bill 112 , are you still going to do the stem cell thing soon? Remember you said you going to go for it in a post I saw somewhere on here.

None of the stem cell clinics available to the public will correct the damage you have. I'm sorry but there is just no way the stem cells they use and the methods they use will allow that. The studies put on at Japan's Kyoto University displayed that the differentiated stem cells need to be transplanted onto the damaged areas (glial scars) and even by doing so did not fully heal what auditory functions were damaged between the inner ear and the brain. There is no way stem cells from these non-FDA approved clinics will allow any sort of repair by injecting these cells through an iv and into your blood stream. I'm sure it could work for other situations, but there's just no way even if they do pass the blood-brain barrier.

How have things been going for you lately Jd?

 

[Beste]

None of the stem cell clinics available to the public will correct the damage you have. I'm sorry but there is just no way the stem cells they use and the methods they use will allow that. The studies put on at Japan's Kyoto University displayed that the differentiated stem cells need to be transplanted onto the damaged areas (glial scars) and even by doing so did not fully heal what auditory functions were damaged between the inner ear and the brain. There is no way stem cells from these non-FDA approved clinics will allow any sort of repair by injecting these cells through an iv and into your blood stream. I'm sure it could work for other situations, but there's just no way even if they do pass the blood-brain barrier.

How have things been going for you lately Jd?

But how is it possible for them to see the damaged areas? I think there is no way to determine the areas which may possible cause the T. Am I wrong?

 

[Nick Pyzik]

But how is it possible for them to see the damaged areas? I think there is no way to determine the areas which may possible cause the T. Am I wrong?

Well for one, these studies were done on rats. The tests were to see if it was possible to transplant stem cells differentiated into "nerve cells" into the nervous system and repair damage in such locations. The location they chose to work with was the auditory nerve's of rats. After I believe compressing their auditory nerves without putting forth any change to the sensory cells (hair cells) inside each cochlea, the spiral ganglion neurons degenerated. The rats were then given specifically differentiated stem cells transplanted carefully onto the glial scars that formed over a period of time in the location between the inner and their brain. It was spoken about in the universities documents about how such a procedure would be obtained in a human and the spot could be reached by surgically remove the hard bone behind the patients ear to reach the middle space between the inner ear and the brain.

Mainly, this study was to see if neural regeneration of the central nervous system was possible and it proved that regeneration can be obtained with the correct procedure with the glial scars....I don't recall reading anything about Tinnitus/ringing being captured through the rat's brains during the study. The focus was more on regeneration than any sort of "Tinnitus" subject.

The areas in which the ringing you hear have been located in one study in 2015 of a man who had Epileptic seizures: http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-32414876

Here's a pdf of the Kyoto study if you want to get into more detail about it: http://www.pnas.org/content/112/26/E3431.full.pdf

 

[Anonymous2929]

Yep, I agree with Nick. These "stem cell clinic" are just money diggers. If what they promise works, then how come there is still research being carried on stem cells. I recall reading some lady went to portugal and received stem cells from an unregulated clinic for her paralyses. Her back pain got worse and x rays showed she had nasal tissue growing!

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn25859-stem-cell-treatment-causes-nasal-growth-in-womans-back/

Yeah Jd, I asked how bad is your hearing before? Are you worse off than me? Profound in right ear and severe in left ear? I use a high powered cic in my left ear and have no problems hearing everything apart from I cannot understand speech without lip reading. I don't believe there will be a all-out cure for many years to come

 

[RB2014]

https://hearinglosscure.stanford.edu/2016/06/june-2016-update-from-the-heller-lab/

Just an update from the heller lab. Highlights below. Probably not the best news about what they found on not being able to control early human ear development but they do mention stem cells and how they could help. The paper will get published hopefully soon.
Briefly, the paper is showing an in-depth analysis of how difficult it is to control early human inner ear development in a cell culture dish. It revealed limitations more than it provided workable solutions but this is not a flaw – rather a revelation, and we were quite upfront and honest about this. This said, it also points the direction for future attempts to generate human inner ear replacement parts from stem cells.

Jd posted some info on his hearing loss. Nowhere near you or I.

 

[Anonymous2929]

RB2014 good find! It shows the limitations and the barriers which these researchers have to overcome. And the billions of £££$$$ they need to accomplish

My hearing aid is really good. But it has its share of problems. This current model has a 70db microphone. My old aid was fitted with a 40db microphone. A huge world of difference. Even right now, I am using say about 25% power and it is awesome. When my audi, took it to 50% power output and raised the high frequencies, just to see how I get on. And my! I was walking past people, and understanding their conversations without lip-reading. But when I got home, the rooms are smaller and walled. I found it very painful. It was far too much. Plus it makes the background nosies too high. Audi told me there is a program to limit background noise using a remote control. She turned it down but then I lost the ability to understand speech without lip-reading. We can't find a way to raise the high frequencies without hurting my ear or making it too loud. My hearing is too bad after all. I said it before, I be happy for an fully internal cochlear implant. Cochlear ltd is working on one right now. I would only need another surgery to remove my current implant in my right ear (i stopped using it 2 years ago)

 

[RB2014]

RB2014 good find! It shows the limitations and the barriers which these researchers have to overcome. And the billions of £££$$$ they need to accomplish

My hearing aid is really good. But it has its share of problems. This current model has a 70db microphone. My old aid was fitted with a 40db microphone. A huge world of difference. Even right now, I am using say about 25% power and it is awesome. When my audi, took it to 50% power output and raised the high frequencies, just to see how I get on. And my! I was walking past people, and understanding their conversations without lip-reading. But when I got home, the rooms are smaller and walled. I found it very painful. It was far too much. Plus it makes the background nosies too high. Audi told me there is a program to limit background noise using a remote control. She turned it down but then I lost the ability to understand speech without lip-reading. We can't find a way to raise the high frequencies without hurting my ear or making it too loud. My hearing is too bad after all. I said it before, I be happy for an fully internal cochlear implant. Cochlear ltd is working on one right now. I would only need another surgery to remove my current implant in my right ear (i stopped using it 2 years ago)

It is amazing though, that they only have such a small group of people working on this. Imagine if they could staff one hundred researchers instead of the six or eight they have now. I know they have other teams at Stanford, and they coordinate with other universities across the country, but I wish they could get better funding for their research.

Can't you keep two programs ? Use one for when you are outside and then push a button for when you are in small rooms? I have to up the volume when I talk with girls vs guys. I have noticed as your hearing gets worst the different programs really help. I used to be able to keep a single program and it would work in all cases, but no longer the case. I will be going in tomorrow to talk with my audiologist about setting up some new programs.

 

[Anonymous2929]

It is amazing though, that they only have such a small group of people working on this. Imagine if they could staff one hundred researchers instead of the six or eight they have now. I know they have other teams at Stanford, and they coordinate with other universities across the country, but I wish they could get better funding for their research.

Can't you keep two programs ? Use one for when you are outside and then push a button for when you are in small rooms? I have to up the volume when I talk with girls vs guys. I have noticed as your hearing gets worst the different programs really help. I used to be able to keep a single program and it would work in all cases, but no longer the case. I will be going in tomorrow to talk with my audiologist about setting up some new programs.

I have one "everyday" mode. Usually I am always using this one. I don't have any buttons on my cic due to its small size. My cic has wireless features. I use the remote control to increase volume. So first program which is normal, second program more louder and third program even louder. I hardly use the third program as its too much. If I go out and be in a large group then I use the second program. My hearing aid picks up too much background noise, i work in a supermarket and i can hear the fridges/freezers humming far too much. When driving say on the national speed limit (70 mph) it picks up too much engine noise, wind nose etc and the speech reduces.

I need an advanced remote control which will enable me to have more settings. The program i am after is to reduce background noise etc when at work or driving but still have that clarity to understand speech

I had the same problem with my CI but it sounded more electronic

 

[Anonymous2929]

I have noticed the higher the volume, the better I sound to myself when I talk. I think speech and hearing is linked. The more you hear, the better you will speak

 

[whiskeykonteq]

Looks like that Australian stem cells company filled patent application Compositions and methods for the treatment of tinnitus https://www.google.com/patents/WO2014179834A1?cl=en

I googled for inventor's names Wayne Thomas, Ralph BRIGHT and found this company behind it: http://www.macquariestemcells.com/about-stem-cell-therapy/

This should be what @FERNANDO GIL had at stemcells21.

Very encouraging extract from application:

Example 11 - Administration of a stromal vascular fraction from adipose tissue to patients with history of tinnitus

Patient 1

The patient reported tinnitus in both ears for a period of 29 years.

The patient was treated with autologous SVF by injecting 1,226,500,000 cells into a 500 ml of bag of normal saline and administering the SVF to the patient intravenously over a period of 20 minutes. The patient received a second treatment 20 months later - frozen autologous SVF was thawed, 200,000,000 viable cells were injected into a 500 ml bag of normal saline and administered to the patient intravenously over a period of 20 minutes.

Tinnitus in the right ear significantly improved following the first SVF administration and completely resolved after the second SVF administration.

Tinnitus in the left ear improved with each SVF administration but did not completely resolve.

Patient 2

The patient reported tinnitus in both ears for a period of 5 years. The patient was treated with autologous SVF by injecting 125,000,000 cells into a 500 ml of bag of normal saline and administering the SVF to the patient intravenously over a period of 20 minutes.

Tinnitus in the right ear resolved completely by the next day after the treatment. Tinnitus in the left ear did not improve.

 

[The Red Viper]

All of the research is too fragmented. This is why I support Henry Markram and his Human Brain Project. It is a one billion dollar venture by the EU to try to simulate the human brain in a supercomputer. What they are basically doing is modeling every single neuron, neural connection, and neural network. Once a fully functioning brain simulation is made, thousands of experiments can be done digitally to sift out treatments that don't work. That way the real focus of human trials can be treatments that have been validated in the models.

 

[Aaron123]

Interesting. I'm not a lawyer, but they may well have a hard time enforcing a patent for what is basically a generic process that was in use prior to the patent application.

They have also applied for a patent to treat headaches: https://www.google.com/patents/US20150174172?dq=ininventor:"Ralph+BRIGHT"&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwif8vWDyLrNAhXI1B4KHUtdDKwQ6AEITzAH

Anyone considering this clinic might want to read this: https://au.news.yahoo.com/nsw/a/31832555/nsw-coroner-probes-liposuction-death/#page1 The issue seems to be the quality of the medical care rather than the stem cells, but it still pays to be informed.

 

[Nick Pyzik]

I have one "everyday" mode. Usually I am always using this one. I don't have any buttons on my cic due to its small size. My cic has wireless features. I use the remote control to increase volume. So first program which is normal, second program more louder and third program even louder. I hardly use the third program as its too much. If I go out and be in a large group then I use the second program. My hearing aid picks up too much background noise, i work in a supermarket and i can hear the fridges/freezers humming far too much. When driving say on the national speed limit (70 mph) it picks up too much engine noise, wind nose etc and the speech reduces.

I need an advanced remote control which will enable me to have more settings. The program i am after is to reduce background noise etc when at work or driving but still have that clarity to understand speech

I had the same problem with my CI but it sounded more electronic

That's so interesting you say that Anonymous2929. So interesting. It's crazy how I'm experiencing exactly how you describe what you are picking up through the use hearing aids since they are made to amplify sound/frequencies into your inner ear. What exactly were you diagnosed with by audiologists when you were younger? I see you put down sensorineural hearing loss. It just makes me insanely curious about how your auditory properties are working as one who was born with a hearing loss. You already have trouble hearing to begin with, then when you amplify noise into your inner ear through your hearing aids, it seems like you can't process noise when louder noises are introduced. Wind noise in the car or loud refrigerators at work. It's just so fascinating that I'm experiencing exactly those sort of examples. A fan running in the kitchen blocks my ability to process noises I focus on or the water from a sink running does the same. Wind blowing in my car as I drive down the road trying to hear the radio blocks my ability to process what's being said or played in a song. Processing. Processing. Processing. I wasn't diagnosed with any sort of decibel loss with my audiograms yet now I'm experiencing actually what you described as someone born with what I presume was hearing loss due to lack of hair cell function? Am I right Anonymous2929?

 

[The Red Viper]

Interesting. I'm not a lawyer, but they may well have a hard time enforcing a patent for what is basically a generic process that was in use prior to the patent application.

They have also applied for a patent to treat headaches: https://www.google.com/patents/US20150174172?dq=ininventor:"Ralph+BRIGHT"&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwif8vWDyLrNAhXI1B4KHUtdDKwQ6AEITzAH

Anyone considering this clinic might want to read this: https://au.news.yahoo.com/nsw/a/31832555/nsw-coroner-probes-liposuction-death/#page1 The issue seems to be the quality of the medical care rather than the stem cells, but it still pays to be informed.

The courts in the US right now are super anti-patent. They are following the Supreme Court's lead in cases such as Mayo v. Prometheus, Bilski v. Kappos, Myriad, Alice Bank, etc. So yeah, if there are already clinics around the world that have been doing what they claim in their application (which is NOT a granted patent because it still lists as an "application") then the PTO will reject those claims. Seeing as they filed after the America Invents Act went into effect (March 16, 2013), the claims will likely be rejected as prior art or at the very least anticipated prior art under 35 USC 102. Even if they are novel, they won't surpass the non-obviousness requirement under 35 USC 103. Finally, they probably won't even get past 35 USC 101, because claims "methods to treat xyz" can't be directed towards non-patentable subject matter such as natural phenomena, laws of nature, or abstract ideas.

TL;DR I wouldn't take patents seriously. They are purposefully written to be vague and as broad as possible and there is absolutely no requirement that the inventor show "how" the invention works, only that it is useful, novel, non-obvious, and a few other legal technicalities.

 

[The Red Viper]

Let me just add that it is a good thing that patents are being more heavily scrutinized for dubiousness. They stifle innovation in the sciences and useful arts. Remember, when Windows first came out, Xerox had the "patent" on graphical user interfaces (GUIs). Imagine if MS or Apple were actually encumbered by such nonsense. Real innovation is basically people seeing what others have done and improving upon it by copying bits of it.

 

[whiskeykonteq]

I got reply from them today

Hi xyz,

We have treated patients in the past whom have also suffered from tinnitus.
The response was rather good, to a point where the last patients tinnitus stopped completely. We also have another patient with a similar situation who noticed about a 75% improvement in his tinnitus.

So it's safe to say it is a condition which can respond to this treatment and improve quite significantly but we don't know how much this improvement will vary from patient to patient since we haven't treated 100's of them.

Kindest regards,
Bora Sagman
Stem Cell Consultant

Regarding patient that died - she was 75 years old and it got complicated. It happens when you undergo surgery I also went to one concert 5 months ago and it got complicated (I got tinnitus). Everything in life comes with a risk. Also what happened can also be beneficial now. I remember when AirFrance flight 447 crashed in Atlantic ocean near Recife in 2009. It happened that I was flying 2 weeks after that event from Düsseldorf to Havana via Paris with the same company. When we arrived in Paris, it turned out that our aircraft was struck by light on it's way from Havana, so AirFrance was extra careful about checking that everything was fine - to the extent that flight was delayed till tomorrow. What I'm saying is that most probably Macquarie Stem Cells will now be extra careful that this not happens again ...

Cheers

 

[Ears Hurt]

This was the response I received from Novastem

"Thank you for contacting us. We want you to know that we carefully look at each case and that we are committed to providing you with assistance in any way we can.
I am sorry to hear about your condition. We do not have a clinical study for tinnitus. Be sure to know that if we start a new study that meets your inclusion criteria, you will be the first to be contacted.
If you have any questions or if I can be of further assistance, do not hesitate to contact me anytime.
Sincerely,
Marisol Silva
Patient Coordinator"

 

[Beste]

Do you guys think that we should also send mails to the clinics you got a response from just to raise awareness? Like we all send messages questions about T like we do not know the answers.

 

[Ears Hurt]

In my opinion, I think it would be beneficial to have more people inquire about services about tinnitus. Why? Because it creates awareness that there is a market for us! They would be more inclined to do research to treat us if they had tons of inquires. I could be wrong, but it certainly raises awareness if nothing else.

 

[Beste]

In my opinion, I think it would be beneficial to have more people inquire about services about tinnitus. Why? Because it creates awareness that there is a market for us! They would be more inclined to do research to treat us if they had tons of inquires. I could be wrong, but it certainly raises awareness if nothing else.

Good : ) Then which one should I start with?

 

[whiskeykonteq]

Do you guys think that we should also send mails to the clinics you got a response from just to raise awareness? Like we all send messages questions about T like we do not know the answers.

Yes, especially if you ask them questions that others forgot to ask and share answers here

 

[Alue]

In my opinion, I think it would be beneficial to have more people inquire about services about tinnitus. Why? Because it creates awareness that there is a market for us! They would be more inclined to do research to treat us if they had tons of inquires. I could be wrong, but it certainly raises awareness if nothing else.

The problem is raising awareness to the right people. If you just get a receptionist that is just doing their job and doesn't really give a shit (probably will 90% of the time cold calling) then it's not going to go anywhere.