Inner Ear Hair Cell Regeneration — Maybe We Can Know More

[DoNotGoGentle]

I just want to say that I've brought up cochlear hair cell regeneration to a lot of people. Real life, Reddit, emails, etc. I was surprised to find out even Biology PhDs studying the inner ear had no clue about cochlear hair cell regeneration. Most had not even heard of these companies like GenVec, Frequency, Decibel, Audion, Acousia, etc. They couldn't even fathom that companies were in and or planning to enter clinical trials.

The point is... We've had a lot of pessimists and naysayers. Including those with PhDs in neuroscience. After talking with Inner Ear Biology PhDs who had no clue hair cell regeneration was a thing I can safely say that we should not be dissuaded by naysayers. Especially ones that aren't researching the seemingly niche and advanced topic which is inner ear hair cell regeneration.

I used to get really down when people (including doctors, researchers, educated) would down play regenerating inner ear haircells. But now... If their name isn't on the masthead of Frequency, Decibel, GenVec, Acousia, Audion then I'm dismissing their opinion. Because I've talked to and had discussions with guys in Frequency and they have the utmost confidence that this could really happen. Will McClean has been saying this for years. I'm taking the word of Ivy League top class researchers that are in this field (and topic) rather than someone studying some other field like neuroscience.

Tl;DR don't be delusional but don't let the naysayers and people saying "inner ear hair cell regeneration isn't possible" get you down. What do they know that Frequency doesn't?

Yeah it is amazing went to tinnitus clinic told them about hearing restore they said only in mice don't hold your breath. Talked to an audiologist they had no idea about these companies. They work for hearing aid companies. As long as we have breath we have a chance everyday is a battle!

 

[NatureHiker]

I meant that the cause of tinnitus, as opposed to NIHL, is not well defined. With tinnitus, what are you going to fix?!

Turning down the CNS gain mechanism would be a starting point beyond the fixing hearing (conductive, sensorineural, etc)

 

[NatureHiker]

Yeah it is amazing went to tinnitus clinic told them about hearing restore they said only in mice don't hold your breath. Talked to an audiologist they had no idea about these companies. They work for hearing aid companies. As long as we have breath we have a chance everyday is a battle!

Exactly. I've learned that this is an extremely niche topic. You wouldn't know much about this unless you actively kept up with research in the field. Which most ENTs, Audiologists, and doctors in general do not.

I was flabbergasted that the many inner ear biology PhD candidates i talked to had not even heard of this research.

All I'm saying is our naysayers don't have much credence unless their name is Dr. Salvi, Dr. Liberman, Dr. Tzounpolis, etc.

 

[Reinier]

Exactly. I've learned that this is an extremely niche topic. You wouldn't know much about this unless you actively kept up with research in the field. Which most ENTs, Audiologists, and doctors in general do not.

I only had the opportunity to talk briefly with audiologists, and ENTs during consultancy visits.
I will never forget this one ENT that told me it could be within my lifetime NIHL is curable. So he heard ,read or even participated in research. I was to flabbergasted to ask him more about this at the time. Also unfortunately a visit to an ENT is very limited time-wise.
Al other health professionals I talked to about this did not know about research or indicated it would not happen within decades, if ever. The fact some of them did not know, I still can not understand.

Is this scepticism or realism? There must be so much research that has been going on for decades and still does not get any application for patients.

Can the lay person comprehend the complexity of this regeneration process?
Even after reading many documents like some of us do?

 

[Foncky]

I think surgeons can inspect/image during an autopsy. Just need to compare people with equal audiograms, perform a treatment on one set and leave a control group untreated. Then do a follow up audiogram along with a post mortem dissection and imaging of the cochlea of both the control and treated group. Sure you'd have to wait until people died but with enough treatments and time we'd eventually know.

That's basically what Frequency has started to do. They tried their treatment on the human inner ear (from a dead body) already.

 

[Fabrikat]

Talked to an audiologist they had no idea about these companies. They work for hearing aid companies

As for hearing aid companies, there's not a lot of sounds of concern coming from these firms as far as I can tell. You would think they'd be starting to squawk about their rivers of gold potentially drying up. My audiologist knows nothing about hearing regeneration trials either.

Which makes me think that perhaps no one is really taking any of this stuff seriously. If these trials show any kind of efficacy, these industries are in line for some serious disruption.

 

[RonnieCarzatto]

@Fabrikat Well most audiologists still consider the 8khz hearing test as sacrosanct... despite it being out of date and only being useful to sell hearing aids How can those audiologists and hearing aid salespeople still be taken seriously...

 

[walkthroughwalls]

As for hearing aid companies, there's not a lot of sounds of concern coming from these firms as far as I can tell. You would think they'd be starting to squawk about their rivers of gold potentially drying up. My audiologist knows nothing about hearing regeneration trials either.

Which makes me think that perhaps no one is really taking any of this stuff seriously. If these trials show any kind of efficacy, these industries are in line for some serious disruption.

It'll be like a new technology taking over. If you're in the horse-and-buggy business, there's just not much you can do even if you can predict the rise of the car. Another example is film photography and digital photography. The research and engineering are coming from an entirely different place, so getting involved with the new technology would essentially mean rebuilding the old company from the ground up.
It could be done, if a hearing aid company had realized that they're in the business of making people hear better and used their profits to get a foot in the curing hearing loss business. But that's a pretty rare move for any established company.

Once a cure for hearing loss arrives, the hearing aid companies probably aren't that cynical that they'll start complaining about their profits. They'll quietly fade away. Like our tinnitus.

 

[Flamingo1]

Is this scepticism or realism? There must be so much research that has been going on for decades and still does not get any application for patients

The breakthroughs are relatively recent so I do think the tide is turning and that help is on its way. As others have stated, a medical cure for hearing loss is against the best interests of audiologists who will face a shrinking market for their $3000 hearing aids. When I brought up the recent research to one audiologist, he tried to scare me by saying the treatment to regenerate hair cells would cost a patient $50,000 [sic]!! Yeah... right....

 

[Reinier]

he tried to scare me by saying the treatment to regenerate hair cells would cost a patient $50,000 [sic]!! Yeah... right....

Where can I apply for treatment
It is not that I am wealthy, but if there ever was a reason to get the money this is it.
Work day and night and see what I can sell .

But I agree. Although there is not yet prove that hair cell regeneration can happen in humans and improves hearing, I am optimistic.
How can you not be after all that is happening in 2017 alone.

 

[Samir]

Biology PhDs studying the inner ear had no clue about cochlear hair cell regeneration

God help us all!

don't be delusional but don't let the naysayers and people saying "inner ear hair cell regeneration isn't possible" get you down

What's possible has already been done. It's the impossible that's interesting.

Even before I got tinnitus I was interested in the seemingly impossible things. I used to read pop-sci magazines as well as sci-fi comics. The fine line between science fiction and science fact is ever so small. I say strive for the impossible! Don't let the naysayers have the last laugh.

 

[Paulmanlike]

@Samir I will test my ears later to get back to you whether I can hear up to 16khz (t in left ear)

 

[Coleoptere]

Once a cure for hearing loss arrives, the hearing aid companies probably aren't that cynical that they'll start complaining about their profits. They'll quietly fade away. Like our tinnitus.

They are aware of the developments. I read somewhere that they expect that the hearing aid market will disappear between 10-20 years. Hearing Health foundation - also doing hearing cure research - is sponsored by several hearing aid companies. Modern companies understand that the markets will change and might dry out one day sooner or later.

 

[Paulmanlike]

From the journals I have read, inner hair cell regneration may only work on regeneration SOME hearing loss and only in the case of acute hearing loss??

 

[NatureHiker]

They are aware of the developments. I read somewhere that they expect that the hearing aid market will disappear between 10-20 years. Hearing Health foundation - also doing hearing cure research - is sponsored by several hearing aid companies. Modern companies understand that the markets will change and might dry out one day sooner or later.

Hearing aids as an industry are going to drop drastically in value. There's a bill in Congress that both Democrats and Republicans support for making hearing aids OTC. Less market entry barriers = more competitors = cheaper hearing aids.

I don't think there's an industry that can or would get in the way of a treatment that cures sensorineural hearing loss.

 

[layzell]

Is Coleoptere saying that causes of deafness such as hair follicle damage of the inner ear are the only cause of tinnitus?

 

[jeff W]

 

[Samir]

With tinnitus, what are you going to fix?!

The ringing! The ringing!

I meant that the cause of tinnitus, as opposed to NIHL, is not well defined.

Oh? So noise induced hearing loss is well defined? They still don't know all the details, like what part of the ear gets most damaged. For example, this new thing they call hidden hearing loss! The current studies seem to suggest that nerve synapses are even more prone to damage than the hair cells. The technical term for "hidden hearing loss" is cochlear synaptopathy or cochlear neuropathy. They intentionally picked this name because it offers them more slack, while they work out the kinks in the theory.

I could say something like: "The TV is broken!" This is very different from saying: "The TV is broken, because the 4700 µF capacitor is borked on the daughter board." This is very descriptive and specific.

Scientists never really have a definitive answer to a given question. It's all based on current understanding, on working knowledge. It's a constantly evolving body of knowledge.

The thing about ears and hearing is that we have gained a lot of new insights in the past 20 to 30 years, and it's the ambition of a select few to try to translate these findings into practical applications. Ultimately, that's what science is for! It's meant to help us understand nature and improve our living condition. But scientists are never in a hurry to translate the findings into practical applications. That's not really their job either. That's where money and business comes in.

 

[Paulmanlike]

@Samir plz answer my above question

 

[Samir]

It could be done, if a hearing aid company had realized that they're in the business of making people hear better and used their profits to get a foot in the curing hearing loss business. But that's a pretty rare move for any established company.

Med-El has made an investment in Audio Cure.

 

[Samir]

Hearing Health foundation - also doing hearing cure research - is sponsored by several hearing aid companies.

As I said before, Med-El has made an investment in Audio Cure. Just as an example.

Modern companies understand that the markets will change and might dry out one day sooner or later.

Not necessarily modern, but smart companies do.

 

[Samir]

There's a bill in Congress that both Democrats and Republicans support for making hearing aids OTC.

Even something like that would mean a lot for a lot of people.

This reminds me of "MD Hearing Aid".
https://www.mdhearingaid.com/

When one cannot afford the $3-4K price of the major brands I have found the MDHearingAid I bought about 15 months ago deliver adequate hearing support under most conditions.

https://www.consumeraffairs.com/health/hearing/md-hearing-aid.html

Cheap Hearing Aids & Devices: Helpful or Harmful?
http://www.healthyhearing.com/report/47436-Cheap-hearing-aids

I can't wait for these stories to become the thing of the past.

 

[NatureHiker]

Even something like that would mean a lot for a lot of people.

This reminds me of "MD Hearing Aid".
https://www.mdhearingaid.com/


https://www.consumeraffairs.com/health/hearing/md-hearing-aid.html

Cheap Hearing Aids & Devices: Helpful or Harmful?
http://www.healthyhearing.com/report/47436-Cheap-hearing-aids

I can't wait for these stories to become the thing of the past.

It seems the main opposition to OTC hearing aids are Audiologists and other hearing specialists. They say people don't have the ability to properly check their own ears for problems and to fit and utilize hearing aids.

For people without hearing problems this seems reasonable, but to us who do we all know about the hearing aid racket and how useless Audiologists and ENTs are.

But I wouldn't worry. Republicans and Democrats both support this bill. It'll pass. Then you can get hearing aids at best buy or Walmart.

 

[Samir]

They say people don't have the ability to properly check their own ears for problems and to fit and utilize hearing aids.

Maybe it's just me, but I get the impression that they are not so eager to go out of their way to help people avoid hearing loss in the first place.

Then you can get hearing aids at best buy or Walmart.

Well here in Sweden you can get them for free basically if an audiologist has checked your hearing and he or she thinks you need hearing aids. We have public healthcare insurance that covers the cost, up to certain price point or you select from a catalog of models.

We have audiologists working at public hospitals and commercial/private audiologist clinics. There was a big scandal here recently, where a certain multinational audiologist chain was found guilty of pushing their customers to buy other brands and more expensive models than the ones they otherwise would have gotten for free. They convinced them how those models were inferior. Plus, the audiologists selling the more expensive models were getting bonuses for doing so. It made it to national news. People who got their hearing checked at public hospitals instead didn't get this sales pitch.

What's wrong with getting hearing aids for free? They can't be that bad? They are not these cheap "personal sound amplification" devices that are sold in the US. They are proper hearing aids. The only problem may be that they are worth $1500 instead of $3000 and that the poor audiologist is not getting the bonus.

 

[Flamingo1]

So noise induced hearing loss is well defined? They still don't know all the details, like what part of the ear gets most damaged. For example, this new thing they call hidden hearing loss! The current studies seem to suggest that nerve synapses are even more prone to damage than the hair cells.

There are at least two well-defined targets for reversing NIHL that can be studied, cilia and synapses. Repair those and observe the effect on hearing. What are the well defined targets for curing tinnitus? In other words, what is the etiology of T? If you can't locate the aberration, how do you fix it? With tinnitus, I think we're still in Phase 1, ie locating the problem.

 

[Samir]

There are at least two well-defined targets for NIHL, cilia and synapses. Repair those and observe the effect on hearing. What are the well defined targets for curing tinnitus?

They are one and the same? At least that's what the good old doctors will have us believe. That's why I can't wait to see this hypothesis either confirmed or busted once and for all.

But yeah, I get it. Tinnitus is more elusive.

Even if it doesn't do anything for tinnitus, restoring hearing by biological means is a big step forward.

 

[Jim51042]

Well here in Sweden you can get them for free basically if an audiologist has checked your hearing and he or she thinks you need hearing aids.

Lol. Well here in the states our Congress is trying to remove pregnancy as a mandatory benefit on insurance plans while giving tax cuts to the 1%.

 

[grate_biff]

I just need to regenerate my cochlea HC and the GABA-receptors in my brain. Then I'll be happy!!

 

[Samir]

Interesting read about current research and near term future:
http://cen.acs.org/articles/94/i11/Drugmakers-tackle-hearing-loss.html

Thanks for posting! I just found this article today. I found this part very exciting:

To that end, the firm is trying to convince specialists to use more complex tests that could provide critical information about the anatomical drivers of hearing disorders. Right now, a patient who walks into a specialist's office is given a "threshold" test, which uses pitch and volume to measure the degree of loss. The test doesn't tell the doctor, for example, whether hearing is impaired because of damaged hair cells or because of a problem in how sound signals are processed in the brain.

One component of Decibel's strategy is to build a registry of people tested with auditory brainstem response, which uses an electrode-containing earbud to more precisely pinpoint the source of the hearing loss.

That information could lead to better diagnoses, more sophisticated trials and, ultimately, better drugs.

From the looks of it, Decibel is doing rudimentary research to get a better grip on the problem that they need to solve. I hope they have this registry by now and that it contains a significant amount of data already.

They have now sided with Google to do the number crunching with. I am looking forward to hear more about Decibel and what they are up to.

How to submit data to Decibel's database? I wish I knew. And those of you that visit an ENT clinic, please inform them about the Tinnitus Database. See the link below.

https://www.tinnitus-database.de/

 

[Samir]

I just need to regenerate my cochlea HC and the GABA-receptors in my brain. Then I'll be happy!!

If we could only come up with a way to do it at home...