Isn't It OK to Use Headphones Even at Low Volume?

@glynis,
Yes, and that's also true. You can't properly deliver any kind of acoustic stimulation such as NMT or ACRN without the use of headphones. They are also excellent for masking. Not to mention that you cannot do pure tone audiometry without a good pair of headphones. It's a double-edged sword. Meaning: use it wisely.

It's not the headphones that are damaging, it's the noise level.
 
@Jazzer Here is the Illinois study. My discussion post #65 is referenced on pages well into the study. Use arrows to turn pages. Some pages will turn slow.

https://www.ncrar.research.va.gov/Conference/Documents/PPT/Husain.pdf

Thanks for this @Greg Sacramento.
I understand the precuneus aspect, with the dorsal (concentration) network prevalent, and the default (resting) network compromised.
This explains why sleep is less than satisfactory.
However, not being a scientist, I can get little from the rest of it of course.
Thanks again Greg,
Jazzer
 
On their own, headphones may not damage your hearing under normal conditions, if the volume is kept in check. But you may be at greater risk of damage should something go bad with the headphones or the device you have them connected to, especially if you use the in-ear models.

This is what in-ear models look like.
in-ear.jpg

This is what normal "earphones" look like.
ear-phones.jpg

These terms are often used interchangeably.

There are even "airpods" now.

airpods.png

As well as "earins".

earins.png

There are so many pods, ins and outs now that it's becoming difficult to keep track of it all. These personal listening devices are now even fusing with hearing aids. There are now consumer grade headphones with amplifying features that can rival the professional hearing aids. There are some really innovative ones I have seen. But that's for another post.

Some will say that the in-ear models and noise canceling headphones allow you to keep the volume low, because you don't have to crank up the volume to block out the external noise, and that for this reason they are safer than other models. That perhaps is true... if you do keep the volume down low.

This is what noise canceling headphones often look like.
noise-canceling.jpg

There may be smaller ones available with noise canceling feature, but more often than not, it is fitted in the large headphones like these ones.

Maybe it's just me then... but I have used a lot of headphones in my life, and a lot of different portable, personal listening devices. I never cared 2 cents about the external noise! I was young and I was dumb! When I would crank up the volume I would do it for pure pleasure, because, lets face it, it is much more energizing! Many of us anyway... and we don't think of the consequences until after the fact.

It's like upgrading from a car without air bags to a car with air bags! If you are "safe" in a car without air bags, traveling at a speed of 50 Kmph, then theoretically...

car-safe.jpg

You should be even "safe-er" in a car with air bags installed, traveling at the same speed. But what do people do?

car-safer.png

They punch the pedal to the metal and go 70 Kmph because they have a "safe" car now, a safer car relative to the old model.

That's just how we people are, and we constantly keep pushing the limit, the limit of our cars, and our selves. It's the same with these supposedly superior headphones. The headphones are only going to be as safe as you are wise in using them.

I would rather see safety measures be put in place to protect ourselves from ourselves. Instead of trusting the judgement of the user. But it's not easy.

So in cars, I want to see limiters installed that disable the car from reaching insanely high speeds. You will find that all modern cars have these installed already. But what do the users do? They go angry and complain to each other how their cars won't go over 200 Kmph and they advise each other on how to disable the limiter that's been built in by the manufacturer. They want to be able to wroom past the "competition" on Autobahn at 250 Kmph. For no good reason.

And with headphones, you will find that everything from early 2000 model of iPod to the latest "smart" phones have a volume limit. On some devices you hear a beep warning you that you are past the safe listening level. On those that have a display you will see a warning message similar to the one you see below.

warning.jpg

You can often freely choose to ignore the warning. On some devices, you are not able to disable this feature. Then users get angry and ask each other for advice on how to hack it so they can disable this safety measure.

On some devices, this can be adjusted or circumvented by design.

volume-limit.jpg

On this model you can obviously set your own maximum level. But of course!... you know what's safe for you...
 
@Samir,
Thank you for the information :);).
Im lucky that im not effected by listening to music through earphones but with having hearing loss I chose to be protective and only now play white noise and amplification through my aids.
My phone does have a sound protective setting but gave my earphones away.
Love glynis
 
@Samir,
Thank you for the information :);).
Im lucky that im not effected by listening to music through earphones but with having hearing loss I chose to be protective and only now play white noise and amplification through my aids.
My phone does have a sound protective setting but gave my earphones away.
Love glynis
I don't want to pass on judgment on people that use or those that don't use headphones. As I said, it's a double-edged sword really. They have their benefit and drawbacks. People need to be informed, and then make up their own mind about it.

The risks I brought up regarding headphone use are real. Some headphone designs may be more risky than others. But these risks often stem from other factors, not the headphones themselves. Things such as user's listening habit, and safety of the device they are being connected to, as well as use cases. Someone working professionally with audio in a studio may be at a greater risk of hearing damage than someone who listens to the Beatles once or twice in a week. There are a lot of factors to consider.

As I said I have used headphones on more than one occasion since my tinnitus started, and it was caused most definitely by that intense noise I was blasted with. It has not increased the severity of it, or caused a permanent spike. But the outcome may very well be different for other people. I can only talk about my own experience.
 
This is a very important thread for me, I have been avoiding headphones since my second T onset, but I have to admit, I would like to be little bit more "normal" and not to be afraid of normal everyday situations (which is also using headphones once in while on low volume). @Michael Leigh , can you please comment the physical difference of a sound generated by the speakers and the headphones? Why would be the in-ear headphone should be so dangerous (listening to a super low volume=to easily hear people talking etc.)???
 
I have some excellent headphones, which I no longer use because I think my T might have been caused by noise, possibly even headphone and/or earbud use. I was thinking of selling them, but there is hope for cures in the future, and if a cure worked for me, I'll be sorry that I let them go. Just a random thought, lol.
 
Here is a little something to consider regarding the in-ear headphones.

mechanics of the stapedius (or "acoustic") reflex, a built-in defense mechanism that tenses the muscles supporting the middle ear, dampening the energy reaching the cochlea by as much as 50 dB.

With the sealed canal, sound pressure behaves - more or less - like a piston in an engine cylinder, transferring the motion of the earphone's driver mechanism directly to the eardrum, which responds with overexcursions - movements up to 1,000 times greater than the tiny motions observed during normal listening

An insertion gain effect can boost sound pressure levels in the resulting sealed chamber some 20 dB, so even with relatively quiet input, levels can get high enough (the precise figure varies from person to person, but it's in the neighborhood of 90 dB) to trigger the stapedius reflex repeatedly - this oscillatory pressure and resultant strain may be what's responsible for hearing fatigue.

Another reason to crank up the volume! Or not to, if you want to play it safe and you can stand the bad sound quality.

Stephen discovered that when the ear canal is sealed by an earbud, the speaker vibrations create acoustic pressure. In the confined space of the closed ear canal, these become harmful amplified pneumatic pressures and cause the eardrum to move with an amplitude thousands of times greater than normal. Tiny muscles around the eardrum then tighten to protect the ear by dampening the sound. To overcome this dampening you must turn up the volume. The more the volume increases, the more the eardrum tightens. And so on. And so on.

This is all coming from the horse's mouth, Stephen Ambrose, the inventor of the in-ear monitors which all in-ear headphones are based on. Especially those that make a very good seal of the ear canal I would say.

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/through-diaphonic-lens
https://asiustechnologies.com/pages/technology
 
Here is a video where Stephen Ambrose talks about his latest invention.

"How loud is too loud?"

Check it out!

 
Am I the only 1 who is thinking, how can an ENT be THE medical authority on the ear and not know jack about tinnitus?! Or an audiologist who's only purpose to push hearing aids and scam TRT in your face, otherwise a useless and made up profession. We're f**ked! Like serious can ENTs only clean wax and test your hearing and that is it?!? They can't even tell you, "hey this is why your tinnitus is happening, you have bad hearing" or "hey this is why your tinnitus is happening, you might have TMJ" or "hey this is why your tinnitus is happening, you took ototoxic pills".

Seriously we are F***ED!!!!

So true !

And they get well paid for this ! LOL

I also "like" their favourites sentences : "You just gonna have to learn to live with it !"

Funny thing, every time someone told me that, they didn't have any Tinnitus at all !
 
This is a very important thread for me, I have been avoiding headphones since my second T onset, but I have to admit, I would like to be little bit more "normal" and not to be afraid of normal everyday situations (which is also using headphones once in while on low volume). @Michael Leigh , can you please comment the physical difference of a sound generated by the speakers and the headphones? Why would be the in-ear headphone should be so dangerous (listening to a super low volume=to easily hear people talking etc.)???

Hi @w-drak

I have written many times in this forum my opinions on Headphone use and for people affected by tinnitus caused by "noise trauma" that want to use them. Please look back in this thread and read my posts. Please also read my article: Tinnitus, A Personal View. You can access it by going to my "started threads" In this article you will find a document titled: Headphones and Tinnitus. I hope that you find it helpful.

I will end by saying: I note on your Avatar that your tinnitus was caused by going to a concert? Therefore, I will assume your tinnitus was caused by "loud noise exposure". If you feel listening to music through headphones, is going to get you back to a "normal" way of life then use them. If you are asking for my advice on this, then I don't think it is a good idea for you to pursue this route, as there's a risk your tinnitus will get worse. My tinnitus was caused by headphones, and I haven't used them in 21 years and live my life quite happily without them.

I wish you well.
Michael
 
It was caused by some kind of technical problem with the audio device.
not fair man, that's terrible. did that ever get you down? not the tinnitus but that such a random bad thing could happen to you for no reason? I've been struggling with that feeling a lot lately. This kind of stuff is no good
 
I think you should discontinue them. I never preferred laptops but can you get some speakers for them? Does the stress and anxiety from risking headphones really make a more enjoyable listening experience than speakers?
well the laptop is only when i'm making music. i don't mind listening to music off of it's speakers just to listen. i'll try not using headphones if i don't have to though, i got plenty to think about instead(including music lol)
 
not fair man, that's terrible. did that ever get you down? not the tinnitus but that such a random bad thing could happen to you for no reason? I've been struggling with that feeling a lot lately. This kind of stuff is no good
I had a lot of regret initially, but I am over it now. When I looked around on the web I found at least 2 case reports from users that used the same audio device and had the same problem. Plus, I found one musical instrument manufacturer that had similar technical issues where one user reported on their forum that he had acquired hearing loss because of it. I am sure if you stick to it and spend some time on it, you will dig up many more such cases. I wouldn't be surprised if these guys have tinnitus today. If they don't, they might get it soon. All it takes is a couple more such incidents and ear abuse by noise.

Noise is the primary killer of hair cells and nerve cells. It's also the primary tinnitus trigger. Be it from long term overexposure, or occupational or non-occupational accidents like mine. Given the intricate complexity, and speed of production, I would even argue that it's more likely to get faulty audio equipment today than it was many years ago in the analog age.
 
Just want to say that the fact that people are arguing about this makes me sad. People don't have facts here, just views (aka opinion). It's glaring proof that T and H are very under-researched, which means a cure isn't going to happen within our lifetimes.
 
There is a good reason why the BBC has had special limiters designed and installed on all their headphones for a very long time. So if you do audio production, and you want to use headphones, make sure you invest in a limiter to protect your ears. It's a cheap investment for something that can prevent hearing damage and tinnitus. This wouldn't be a bad idea even for regular folks out there.

sennheiser.jpg

These are retrofitted Sennheiser HD480 headphones. These are not the regular model you buy in a retail store. These are noise limited to 88 dB SPL. Note the "CANFORD" marking on them. That's the name of the company that customizes them, and they have a contract with the BBC. But anyone can buy these from them. They have a range of professional headphones that they customize. These Sennheiser cost about 150 GBP or 200 USD. They have one Beyerdynamic that's cheaper, and then the prices go up for the more expensive models.

Could this be something for you @Rick Austin?

They are the only company I know of that does this. You can check out their website here:

Canford - Level Limited Headphones And Headsets

They may be able to retrofit your own headphones with a limiter, but you need to contact them for that and you may need to pay an investigation fee if your model has never been customized by them.
 
Just want to say that the fact that people are arguing about this makes me sad. People don't have facts here, just views (aka opinion). It's glaring proof that T and H are very under-researched, which means a cure isn't going to happen within our lifetimes.
i'm not so sure about that. we have made so many advancements in the last century. maybe with the right circumstances, or luck, it could happen sooner than you think. but it could also not.
 
i'm not so sure about that. we have made so many advancements in the last century. maybe with the right circumstances, or luck, it could happen sooner than you think. but it could also not.

I'm banking on an accidental discovery, like a cure for hearing loss turns out to also be a cure for T, or a new brain control technology can manipulate T into silence. But that falls under luck, and it's hard to bet on luck. Of course I hope I'm wrong but if we're just going to rely on dedicated research for this condition, I really don't see a cure happening in 10-15 years at the very least.
 
There is a good reason why the BBC has had special limiters designed and installed on all their headphones for a very long time. So if you do audio production, and you want to use headphones, make sure you invest in a limiter to protect your ears. It's a cheap investment for something that can prevent hearing damage and tinnitus. This wouldn't be a bad idea even for regular folks out there.

View attachment 14012

These are retrofitted Sennheiser HD480 headphones. These are not the regular model you buy in a retail store. These are noise limited to 88 dB SPL. Note the "CANFORD" marking on them. That's the name of the company that customizes them, and they have a contract with the BBC. But anyone can buy these from them. They have a range of professional headphones that they customize. These Sennheiser cost about 150 GBP or 200 USD. They have one Beyerdynamic that's cheaper, and then the prices go up for the more expensive models.

Could this be something for you @Rick Austin?

They are the only company I know of that does this. You can check out their website here:

Canford - Level Limited Headphones And Headsets

They may be able to retrofit your own headphones with a limiter, but you need to contact them for that and you may need to pay an investigation fee if your model has never been customized by them.
I've been looking for this for ages. I also work in television, as you know Samir, and a damn headphone is what gave me my T at first. (together with exposure in the past).
But I need a limiter with a xlr-connection where i can plug in all kind of headphones, have you perhaps found anything like that? No one I know can tell me where I can get the BBC-system..

Edit: just sent a mail to these guys, hopefully they got something!
 
Just want to say that the fact that people are arguing about this makes me sad. People don't have facts here, just views (aka opinion).
You mean in regard to tinnitus and headphone use? Headphones worsening the tinnitus? Well, I can only speak of my own experience. As I said, my tinnitus was caused by sudden, loud noise. It just so happens that the noise came through my headphones. I have since used the headphones a couple of times, just the normal ones, not the ones you put inside your ear canals. I have not had worsening of my tinnitus because of it. If anything, using the headphones, combined with white noise and ACRN seems to have lowered my tinnitus a little bit.

I have said it before and I will say it again. It's not the headphones, it's the noise! But! Using headphones may predispose you to more damage in case of an acoustic shock, such as a loud noise burst being fed through your ears. Especially damaging are the in-ear headphones and monitors. I have quoted the designer of these saying the same thing above.

There is no reason to argue on the technical aspects of the headphones. The main argument seems to be on whether or not the use of headphones by someone who has tinnitus, even at low volumes, can worsen their tinnitus. My experience is that it does not, and in fact when used with some acoustic stimulation, they seem to lower my tinnitus. Not to mention the residual inhibition where tinnitus is completely suppressed for a short period of time, which I have experienced a few times, with the help of headphones.

Headphones per se are not damaging, noise level is. Which is why I posted about headphones with limiters above. So that people may be informed about how to protect themselves from sudden noise bursts. Some of us are using headphones professionally, and some are experimenting with acoustic stimulations using headphones.

It's glaring proof that T and H are very under-researched, which means a cure isn't going to happen within our lifetimes.
That would depend on how old you are or if you are terminally ill. Don't you think we will have a cure or at least an effective treatment within the next 50 years or so? I agree that there needs to be more research on tinnitus and hyperacusis. But not necessarily on its relation to headphones use. I'm afraid that sort of research would be like chasing your own tail. We already know what's causing it. It's primarily noise and ototoxicity.

I'm banking on an accidental discovery, like a cure for hearing loss turns out to also be a cure for T
Same here! Because I know mine is caused by noise.

or a new brain control technology can manipulate T into silence.
Deep brain stimulation seems to be very effective in some patients. There is also the promise of optogenetics. Even acoustic stimulation and neurofeedback seem promising if we can find an effective protocol. For that we need to better understand the mechanisms that lead to tinnitus. This is where the research money should go to, not to see whether or not headphones can worsen the tinnitus.

But that falls under luck, and it's hard to bet on luck.
You would be surprised how often people bet on their luck, every day.

Of course I hope I'm wrong but if we're just going to rely on dedicated research for this condition, I really don't see a cure happening in 10-15 years at the very least.
There was at least 1 case report I saw where the patient had almost complete suppression of tinnitus following deep brain stimulation, and this was in 2015.
 
I've been looking for this for ages. I also work in television, as you know Samir, and a damn headphone is what gave me my T at first. (together with exposure in the past).
But I need a limiter with a xlr-connection where i can plug in all kind of headphones, have you perhaps found anything like that? No one I know can tell me where I can get the BBC-system..
What type of XLR do you need? Canford offers a number of configurations. You need headphones or headset? They have for example Beyerdynamic DT109 with XLR 5-pin connector.

I don't think you will find a general purpose audio limiter where you can plug in any kind of headphones and be effective at protecting your ears. It depends on sensitivity of the drivers, source and load impedance, and so on. So the limiter and headphones need to be matched and tested accordingly. That's why Canford will retrofit your headphones as a custom job. But you can contact them, see what they say.
 
@Samir, regarding cures, really hope I am wrong about not having a cure in my lifetime. I'm only in my 30s, would love to have my life back at some point. I'm hoping hair cell regeneration can address my T and H because like you, my ear problems are noise-induced. :(
 
If anything, using the headphones, combined with white noise and ACRN seems to have lowered my tinnitus a little bit.

@Samir,
This is what I want to find out off professionals so people with tinnitus whom can not afford white noise generators or hearing aids can play white noise on a low setting from headphones or earphones and sleep phones too.
Love glynis
 
Michael Leigh frequently encourages people to see audiologists and not ENTs, so there's no cognitive dissonance in what I see from him here...

The quotes are all specific to ENT doctors. Audiologists aren't mentioned anywhere. There is an obvious dissonance in this specific context.
That doesn't preclude the existence of consistency in other parts of the discourse.

I mean, look at that guy @linearb for example, he talks way too much and changes his mind every six posts

Perhaps it means that that guy isn't impermeable to new data and arguments. I don't see changing one's mind as a negative. Maybe the frequency of "every 6 posts" is a bit excessive though.

Michael has been struggling with T for years and was able to find some doctors who where slightly more knowledgeable than others.

...or he fell for the Confirmation Bias. Thinking that some parties are "more knowledgeable" than others because they agree with you is a typical signature of this type of cognitive bias.

...or one of the assertions was fabricated. Often people will fabricate evidence to support their vision, and the interesting part about this behavior is that it is sometimes done subconsciously: the person actually believes things have happened even if they haven't, simply because it fits the mental model that they are attracted to. This poses challenges because the person isn't really a "deliberate liar" even though s/he isn't telling the truth.

I've watched a few programs related to this in the context of police investigations (where investigators push their story on the suspect so strongly that the suspect starts believing it out of self doubt), and in the context of child molestation (where psychologists can actually subtly feed a child a story that they will believe is true - this was the source of a lot of bogus claims back in the 80s I think).

not fair man, that's terrible. did that ever get you down? not the tinnitus but that such a random bad thing could happen to you for no reason? I've been struggling with that feeling a lot lately. This kind of stuff is no good

My grandfather used to say that accidents are unpredictable and unavoidable. If they were predictable and avoidable, then they wouldn't be called accidents because they wouldn't happen.
You can live your life doing "the best you can" (or a reasonable approximation of it) to protect yourself from accidents, but at the end of the day it's only a probability game where you can influence probabilities a bit, without being able to ever hit zero risk.

My T is from a disease that I have no control over. There aren't any reliable cures for that disease, and it's a degenerative disease which means my hearing is likely to worsen in time, and the T too as a result.

I did dwell on the "why me?" question for a bit, but it's obviously not helpful since there is no "why" to randomness (unless you are religious).
If your own negligence is to blame for your situation, I can see that it could be on your mind for a while though, and psy therapy may be helpful there.

You can't change the past, but you can influence the future, so I think that's where your focus should be.

Good luck!
 
Often people will fabricate evidence to support their vision, and the interesting part about this behavior is that it is sometimes done subconsciously: the person actually believes things have happened even if they haven't, simply because it fits the mental model that they are attracted to. This poses challenges because the person isn't really a "deliberate liar" even though s/he isn't telling the truth.
It's funny that you mention "deliberate liar". That's something I have thought about myself after seeing the "Decoding the Brain" episode of Breakthrough last week. It made me wonder how trustworthy the witnesses are in the court of law.

Here is a short segment on memory from that episode.


Here is the full episode. Skip to 6:38 for the relevant segment.


I've watched a few programs related to this in the context of police investigations (where investigators push their story on the suspect so strongly that the suspect starts believing it out of self doubt), and in the context of child molestation (where psychologists can actually subtly feed a child a story that they will believe is true - this was the source of a lot of bogus claims back in the 80s I think).
There is a famous homicide case in Sweden from the 1990s - called the Kevin case - which has recently crept back from the past. It involves three boys aged 4, 5 and 7. Kevin being the youngest and the victim. The other two boys were brothers and they were pointed out as the primary suspects under "reasonable suspicion".

The point is, that the police was so focused on solving the case (or the chief investigator was so concerned with ending his career with a perfect record), that they pressured the boys so hard that they eventually gave in and confessed. Since some journalists started digging in the material regarding the case, they have uncovered several disturbing errors and protocol violations and the case has been brought up to light again, and since 8 May 2017, the case is wide open again and the true perpetrator is on the loose.

My grandfather used to say that accidents are unpredictable and unavoidable. If they were predictable and avoidable, then they wouldn't be called accidents because they wouldn't happen.
We have a similar saying for this where I come from. We say, if the man knows where he is to fall, he would not go there. It makes sense, of course.

You can't change the past, but you can influence the future, so I think that's where your focus should be.
True!
 
It's such a bummer to see that using headphones with T is so controversial. When I ski I would always put some earphones in so I could listen while I went down the mountain. I guess I won't be able to listen to music during my favorite hobby anymore :(
 
I agree. It's so confusing. I had (occasionally) been using headphones as well, at low volume, thinking it was okay but apparently this makes no difference. I suppose I've maybe been lucky and can no longer take the risk. Just not worth it. I'm not dismissive of anyone's opinion but would prefer it if it was more conclusive!
 

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