It's Not Your Hair Cells! It's the Stereocicilia and Resulting Ion Balance!

[Samir]

Oh really? So why there are two hair cell rows missing on the left? yeah the damage should depend on the pressure, some of them look broken, some of them look just tangled.

Really!

The missing rows have probably been missing for a long time when the picture was taken. I'm talking about the ones that are still there but are bent and entangled. I don't think they just snap off at the rootlet in an instant. The damage is likely progressive. The missing rows are most likely beyond repair. The underlying hair cells will die off eventually. All we can hope in is being able to artificially manipulate the remaining progenitor cells into generating new cells.

And as for increased neural activity theory it is the most convincing to me, because damage hair cells should not transmit sound.

Right! And I think there are different levels of "damaged". Dead? Yes! Dead cells should not talk, just like dead people don't talk. But damaged cell, like 50% damaged? Hmm...

I just still don't understand which part of the brain is mostly responsible for generating the sound. Whether it is parts like CN/DCN or just neural pathway.

Right! You are not alone! I don't think scientists understand that either. I just listened to Dr. Will Sedley yesterday saying; "Where is tinnitus? Is it in the ears? Is it in the brain?" A man who has spent nearly 10 years now doing researching into tinnitus. They are as lost as we are!

I think it was Dr. Susan Shore who first started investigating CN/DCN in tinnitus patients. I know she has done some very important work in tinnitus research, and I am also drawn towards believing in some of these ideas. You are naturally drawn to one idea or the other. But just because you like one idea more than the other doesn't prove anything. They still haven't cracked it yet!

More work obviously needs to be done. I think it's important that multiple scientists work on different leads. Perhaps, there is more to tinnitus than what meets the ear! To be able to do just that, more money is needed, and tinnitus needs to be brought higher up on the agenda.

I know this is a little ekstrem but what if you kill all you hair cell and then regenarate them all back with stem cells would that work ? then all the half broken ones would be gone but again that is maybe a little to riski

The only risk of killing them all off is not being able to bring them all back again.

Welcome to year 2127! The age of Robocop!


It's like with a house that has been put through a fire. Do you try to repair what can be repaired, or is there no point doing that where it's much easier to wipe everything clean and start all over again using the blueprints?

I would also prefer to do a reboot and rebuild. But unlike with a house, the biological structures such as those found in the human cochlea are much more difficult to rebuild. Mainly because we still know very little about our own biology, and the biology of the ear, and our tools are still inadequate for what we are trying to do. But we are making progress though! We do that every day, and we have been doing it for several decades, and even centuries and millennia. Just think about where we come from.

 

[Samir]

Let me just add that what Ian Mac seems to be suggesting here is that tinnitus is caused by ionic imbalance of the endolymph. He suggests that it is the ion imbalance that induces endolymphatic hydrops, which he correlates to bad diet and dehydration. Endolymphatic hydrop is effusion of endolymph and perilymph caused by a lesion in the wall of the membranous labyrinth. This lesion is a result of increased pressure in the membranous labyrinth.

The cause of endolymphatic hydrops are not well understood. Primary endolymphatic hydrops are known as Meniere's disease and they are idiopathic. However, secondary endolymphatic hydrops are thought to be caused by head trauma, allergy, systemic disorders such as diabetes or autoimmune disorders, or inner ear degeneration. Besides hearing loss and tinnitus, these patients have symptoms of fullness in the ear and vertigo. During an attack the most severe of these patients have to sit or lay down and wait out till it passes which can take an hour or more. But not all who have endolymphatic hydrops have Meniere's disease.

Sources:
http://www.californiaearinstitute.com/ear-disorders-endolymphatic-hydrops-ear-institute-bay-area.php
http://www.menieres.org.uk/information-and-support/symptoms-and-conditions/endolymphatic-hydrops
https://vestibular.ong/secondary-endolymphatic-hydrops-seh
http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/menieres-disease/basics/definition/con-20028251

Primary treatment of Meniere's disease (primary endolymphatic hydrops) or secondary endolymphatic hydrops revolves around change of diet and change of lifestyle. There is even a special name for it: hydrops diet regimen (HDR). They have to reduce salt, sugar and caffeine intake and drink more water.

While these conditions are interesting from the perspective of tinnitus research, telling everyone here that tinnitus is caused by ion imbalance is over-generalizing. Whilst at the same time not providing any links to research results, not even prevalence studies of tinnitus in this group of patients. There is really no research material or results in this. Frankly, I don't even understand what this is doing in the "research news" forum. Anyway... I'm done. I invite Ian to post some research results in here if we are to discuss it further or move the thread to a more suitable forum, like "alternative treatments" forum.

 

[JRchief]

While these conditions are interesting from the perspective of tinnitus research, telling everyone here that tinnitus is caused by ion imbalance is over-generalizing.

Totally agree. Ions, Smions. The HDR does not seem to apply to me. I wonder why this thead is here as it seems misplaced. I mainly drink water, very low sugar intake, and salt and caffeine are moderate. I enjoy my cup of coffee each day. I cut it out for a week and noticed no change. In general, I eat and drink very healthy.

Now if I simply cup my hands over my ears or put on some protective ear muffs (like I'm doing yardwork), my T goes from a 10 to a 0 or 1. Pretty sure my T is related to the hearing loss I have at 8k hertz and above. I have excellent hearing below 8k. I will be watching the Frequency Therapeutics thread on further updates. I would love to see an update on the startlet sea anemone project as well.

 

[Ian Mac]

Simple and guessed theory might be that too much sound pressure can change the default placement and position of the stereocilia which makes them bend when not stimulated and therefore transmit signal to the hair cell generate tinnitus

Ahh you are so close! it's not the the hairs are bent from a loud noise producing tinnitus, they are bent because of the increased pressure from endolymph fluid and resulting ion imbalance, the higher the pressure (due to non-homeostatic pressure and ion balance) causes the hair cells to bend like a tree in a river and you hear shit.

 

[Ian Mac]

View attachment 12242
Just look at what a loud noise can do to your hair cells. I don't think that the damaged cells will generate any sound soon:/

Are you sure that loud noises did that? No you can't be, consider perhaps that the hairs cells are damaged due to toxic endolymph fluid degenerating the hair cells :0 rather than loud noises.

damage to your ear from music is the lamest kind of tinnitus, i'm sorry but hurting your ears in the way the meant to be used - listening to things - but it was too loud - it could be so much worse!!!! there are fungus and virus and bacteria and autoimmune disorders that will have you know a new type of tinnitus suffering you never thought possible.

tonal tinnitus and birds chirping and keys jingling and squeaks oh how I would love to go back to just normal static high pitched constant tinnitus.

 

[Ian Mac]

Hell yeah! I imagine it would be something like tuning a radio! Some static is okay, as long as you can hear most of the signal.

Maybe if we push them all down, then lick them all back up? That ought to work! Just like we normally do when we comb our hair on top of our heads.

Seriously though, assuming the tinnitus is caused by bent stereocilia, this might work to some extent. But I wouldn't know how to do all that bending and straightening with a microscopic comb.

The fact that they are bent though, I suspect, indicates that they might have lost some structural integrity. It may not be like bending and straightening back up a paper clip!

Oh your so close again! Imagine this image - THE TREE IS NOT BROKEN FROM LOUD NOISES. THE TREE IS BENDING BECAUSE ITS STUCK IN A RIVER. Consider this - your hair cells are not broken but are bending under the force of endolymph fluid which is slightly increased due to non-homeostatic dynamic (poor diet, lack of sleep, resulting hormone imbalance, resulting ion imbalance) causing increased pressure called HYDROPS, NO NOT MENIERS just simple hydrops increased pressure in your ear causing your hair cells to bend as well as a resulting ion imbalance from the overproduction of fluid - AKA A TREE BENDING IN THE RIVER. If your hydrops would get way way worse with resulting poor ion imbalance your inner ear membranes rupture causing a mix of perilymph and endolymph fluid causing SPINNING VERTIGO and DISABLING "TINNITUS" congratulations you would now have given yourself MENIERES.

 

[Ian Mac]

Where are you picking this up from? Source? Have you done this study yourself or what?

Do you have Meniere's disease?

Can you please post a link to published research results?

Source? I think it's interesting, but he doesn't present any evidence or research publications.



I did, and it does. Have a look everyone:

View attachment 12274

It's just that when I look at "damaged" hair cells, they often look more like this:

View attachment 12275
These don't look like broken at the rootlet. We may need to define the words "damaged" and "broken". Just like with breaking a leg, there are different kinds of "broken" legs and to different degree. I see no reason why it would not be like that with hair cells as well. Maybe some are broken as in broken off at the rootlet, some are just bent at the rootlet, while still others are bent at the middle.



Treating the symptom rather than the cause, i.e. "managing" a disease. I am too familiar with this. This is how western medicine works when the cause of a disease is unknown. At least in my mind, the right course of action is investigating and finding the root cause, fully understanding the problem, then devising a way or ways (if multiple) to treat it.

What makes you so sure it's the increased neural activity in the brain that causes tinnitus?

YOU SEE WHAT IMPROPER BALANCE OF ENDOLYMPH FLUID CAN DO?? DEGENERATE YOUR EARS, THE HAIR CELLS ARE NOT BENT FROM LOUD NOISES THEY ARE DEGERATING FROM THE TOXIC FLUID THEY ARE BATHING IN AND THE INCREASED PRESSURE BEING PLACED ON THEM. 1.) Correct the imbalance, 2.) regenerate the hair cells 3.) restore the hair cells function! EUREKA

 

[Ian Mac]

Let me just add that what Ian Mac seems to be suggesting here is that tinnitus is caused by ionic imbalance of the endolymph. He suggests that it is the ion imbalance that induces endolymphatic hydrops, which he correlates to bad diet and dehydration. Endolymphatic hydrop is effusion of endolymph and perilymph caused by a lesion in the wall of the membranous labyrinth. This lesion is a result of increased pressure in the membranous labyrinth.

The cause of endolymphatic hydrops are not well understood. Primary endolymphatic hydrops are known as Meniere's disease and they are idiopathic. However, secondary endolymphatic hydrops are thought to be caused by head trauma, allergy, systemic disorders such as diabetes or autoimmune disorders, or inner ear degeneration. Besides hearing loss and tinnitus, these patients have symptoms of fullness in the ear and vertigo. During an attack the most severe of these patients have to sit or lay down and wait out till it passes which can take an hour or more. But not all who have endolymphatic hydrops have Meniere's disease.

Sources:
http://www.californiaearinstitute.com/ear-disorders-endolymphatic-hydrops-ear-institute-bay-area.php
http://www.menieres.org.uk/information-and-support/symptoms-and-conditions/endolymphatic-hydrops
https://vestibular.ong/secondary-endolymphatic-hydrops-seh
http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/menieres-disease/basics/definition/con-20028251

Primary treatment of Meniere's disease (primary endolymphatic hydrops) or secondary endolymphatic hydrops revolves around change of diet and change of lifestyle. There is even a special name for it: hydrops diet regimen (HDR). They have to reduce salt, sugar and caffeine intake and drink more water.

While these conditions are interesting from the perspective of tinnitus research, telling everyone here that tinnitus is caused by ion imbalance is over-generalizing. Whilst at the same time not providing any links to research results, not even prevalence studies of tinnitus in this group of patients. There is really no research material or results in this. Frankly, I don't even understand what this is doing in the "research news" forum. Anyway... I'm done. I invite Ian to post some research results in here if we are to discuss it further or move the thread to a more suitable forum, like "alternative treatments" forum.

Yes that's sums it up pretty well, however everyone experiences hydrops (not menieres), but if you would like MENIERES I can tell you how! First become very unhealthy in diet, malnourished and underfed, then add the stress of backbreaking physical labor, toss in black mold daily nightly inhalation, along with constant paint fumes in your bedroom from the paint you store for work, add a cat you are allergic too, some carbon monoxide from the water heater, some asbestos, antifreeze, and lead based paint from your home, throw in some more mcdonalds 20 piece nuggets w/ranch for $2.99, grow your own weed but forget to flush the chemicals when you smoke it, and constantly have a sinus infection. I'm pretty sure you'll get menier's in 6 months if your too stupid to ignore the tinnitus from the HYDROPS increasing in your ear, like I was. It will increase and increase until your ear ruptures resulting in a mix of endolymph and perilymph causing disabling tinnitus and disabling vertigo, as explained above. The more unhealthy in every way you become, your ears follow. If you have even one of the above stressors you will experience a slight slight hydrops, add more and hey you'll get menieres.

As far as research I posted the link in the first post, to wikipedia, yep don't need a research article here from PUBMED, there's nothing new being discovered here. There are hair cells at one end its called sterocillia and it bathes in the endolymph. The endolymph is known to undergo pressure changes when the body is unhealthy (see above paragraph to understand unhealthy). If the endolymph it moving to fast it bends the hair cell, if the endolymph is toxic it degenerates the hair cell. Just by looking at a damaged hair cell you still don't know that loud noises did that, it's likely a combination of a lot of things, including non-homeostatic endolymph. Also people experience a brief hydrops following loud music which corrects itself after 24 hours, but if you listen day after day then you will be experiencing a hydrops that may not resolve as easily.

See when you damage your ears through any means, the body loses it's control over the delicate fluid balance needed for ears to function. Normally the body maintains fluid ion balance on its own regardless of the body's fluid balance, however when infection and damage occurs (yes even from loud music) the ears loses it's independent control over endolymph balance resulting in hydrops, no you don't have menieres yet, but yeah you've got hydrops, as the body continues producing extra fluid at abnormal rates it changes the ion balance, and your hair cells start to wither away and degenerate and potentially die. Correcting the imbalance will stop the degeneration process.

Y'all: So how do we correct an ION imbalance?

Me: I'm working on it! Let me know if you figure it out!!!! But it's clear we need to focus on an overall healthy approach, the main variables under your control are diet and stress and sleep.

 

[Ian Mac]

Totally agree. Ions, Smions. The HDR does not seem to apply to me. I wonder why this thead is here as it seems misplaced. I mainly drink water, very low sugar intake, and salt and caffeine are moderate. I enjoy my cup of coffee each day. I cut it out for a week and noticed no change. In general, I eat and drink very healthy.

Now if I simply cup my hands over my ears or put on some protective ear muffs (like I'm doing yardwork), my T goes from a 10 to a 0 or 1. Pretty sure my T is related to the hearing loss I have at 8k hertz and above. I have excellent hearing below 8k. I will be watching the Frequency Therapeutics thread on further updates. I would love to see an update on the startlet sea anemone project as well.

Oh you got it! you said that earplugs change your T. If your T was from damaged hair cells, your T would go up with earplugs. No doubt about it right? your T should go up. AHAH MOMENT but what if it's not a permanently damaged hair cell what if the increased pressure from endolymph fluid and resulting Ion imbalance is causing a distortion in your ears ability to hear sound correctly, when hearing environmental noise your ears also create a tinnitus sound which disappears when your plug your ears and stop the sound from traveling through your ear as fast, causing less audible endolymph distortion and giving you some peace.. Correct the imbalance, regenerate the ear, and stop the tinnitus.

 

[Samir]

1.) Correct the imbalance, 2.) regenerate the hair cells 3.) restore the hair cells function!

How do you correct the imbalance? Why do you need to regenerate hair cells if they are only bent and not broken?

As far as research I posted the link in the first post, to wikipedia, yep don't need a research article here from PUBMED, there's nothing new being discovered here.

Nothing new discovered? Are you serious?

The endolymph is known to undergo pressure changes when the body is unhealthy (see above paragraph to understand unhealthy).

Known by who? Where is the reference? Are you suggesting that everyone who ever got tinnitus got it from unhealthy living?

If the endolymph it moving to fast it bends the hair cell, if the endolymph is toxic it degenerates the hair cell.

What would cause endolymph to become toxic?

You do realize that stereocilias don't just move in one direction back and forth along with the endolymph?

Just by looking at a damaged hair cell you still don't know that loud noises did that, it's likely a combination of a lot of things, including non-homeostatic endolymph.

Are you saying that newborn mice naturally have non-homeostatic endolymph?

Also people experience a brief hydrops following loud music which corrects itself after 24 hours

What do you think it means to experience a brief hydrop? What are the symptoms?

See when you damage your ears through any means, the body loses it's control over the delicate fluid balance needed for ears to function. Normally the body maintains fluid ion balance on its own regardless of the body's fluid balance, however when infection and damage occurs (yes even from loud music) the ears loses it's independent control over endolymph balance resulting in hydrops

You make it sound like the body is working against itself. Not sure what to make of this, there are too many contradictions.

But it's clear we need to focus on an overall healthy approach, the main variables under your control are diet and stress and sleep.

Agreed, these are all important aspects of healthy living, with or without tinnitus.

Correct the imbalance, regenerate the ear, and stop the tinnitus.

How would you describe your hypothesis/postulate in exact words? Please try to be direct and concise, also describe the processes and mechanics, don't just say "it's ion imbalance". What causes ion imbalance, what causes increase in pressure? What membrane is raptured, if any, and where exactly? I will have it run by some scientists and let you know what they think of it.

 

[Samir]

I would love to see an update on the startlet sea anemone project as well.

What project is this?

 

[stargazer]

@JRchief
Interesting, I have the opposite experience. Plugs and earmuffs make mine go through the roof, but at least it will go back down once they are off. If I don't use them I can expect a spike for days.

 

[JRchief]

What project is this?

http://jeb.biologists.org/content/219/15/2229.2

http://www.healthyhearing.com/repor...a-anemone-proteins-could-help-restore-hearing

It was a published study which came out last summer in experimental science.

 

[JRchief]

Oh you got it! you said that earplugs change your T. If your T was from damaged hair cells, your T would go up with earplugs. No doubt about it right? your T should go up. AHAH MOMENT but what if it's not a permanently damaged hair cell what if the increased pressure from endolymph fluid and resulting Ion imbalance is causing a distortion in your ears ability to hear sound correctly, when hearing environmental noise your ears also create a tinnitus sound which disappears when your plug your ears and stop the sound from traveling through your ear as fast, causing less audible endolymph distortion and giving you some peace.. Correct the imbalance, regenerate the ear, and stop the tinnitus.

According to my ENT, it's most likely related to hearing loss at 8k hertz and above. I lead a healthy lifestyle based on my diet and exercise so I would say your opinions its about ion imbalance is a bunch of malarkey. I'll trust the two ENT's I've seen over some random person on an internet discussion forum.

 

[Ian Mac]

According to my ENT, it's most likely related to hearing loss at 8k hertz and above. I lead a healthy lifestyle based on my diet and exercise so I would say your opinions its about ion imbalance is a bunch of malarkey. I'll trust the two ENT's I've seen over some random person on an internet discussion forum.

Um excuse me? Trusting your ENT? You just lost half your credibility! You should trust your Otologist but I'm sure you don't know what an otologist is! If you'd like to have testing to actually KNOW WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOUR EARS, well ignorance is bliss, right? perhaps you'd like to have your ears tested, or perhaps your tinnitus isn't that bad?

The otologist cares, the ENT likes to regurgitate book knowledge from textbooks from school which are written by pharmaceutical companies, pharma will never solve hearing loss, your ENT cares not about your tinnitus my friend, they care not.

 

[Ian Mac]

How do you correct the imbalance? Why do you need to regenerate hair cells if they are only bent and not broken?


Nothing new discovered? Are you serious?


Known by who? Where is the reference? Are you suggesting that everyone who ever got tinnitus got it from unhealthy living?


What would cause endolymph to become toxic?

You do realize that stereocilias don't just move in one direction back and forth along with the endolymph?


Are you saying that newborn mice naturally have non-homeostatic endolymph?


What do you think it means to experience a brief hydrop? What are the symptoms?


You make it sound like the body is working against itself. Not sure what to make of this, there are too many contradictions.


Agreed, these are all important aspects of healthy living, with or without tinnitus.


How would you describe your hypothesis/postulate in exact words? Please try to be direct and concise, also describe the processes and mechanics, don't just say "it's ion imbalance". What causes ion imbalance, what causes increase in pressure? What membrane is raptured, if any, and where exactly? I will have it run by some scientists and let you know what they think of it.

Your asking me to solve the HOLY GRAIL of hearing loss and TINNTUS, it's so much more complicated than you can imagine! I'm still learning here! IF I HAD THE ANSWERS I WOULDN'T BE HERE ID BE GETTING MONEY SITTING ON THE BEACH BANGING MY GIRL.

If I had the answers I'd be charging you buddy

 

[JRchief]

Um excuse me? Trusting your ENT? You just lost half your credibility! You should trust your Otologist but I'm sure you don't know what an otologist is! If you'd like to have testing to actually KNOW WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOUR EARS, well ignorance is bliss, right? perhaps you'd like to have your ears tested, or perhaps your tinnitus isn't that bad?

The otologist cares, the ENT likes to regurgitate book knowledge from textbooks from school which are written by pharmaceutical companies, pharma will never solve hearing loss, your ENT cares not about your tinnitus my friend, they care not.

Are you an Otologist? Have you seen my charts? Of course I'd like to know and better yet, have it fixed. If I am being told by someone who doesn't know me or my health history my T is due to having an ion imbalance from living an unhealthy lifestyle, I would tell them they don't know jack squat. Maybe it impacts some people but I am confident its not related to me. I trust my ENT about as far as I can throw them as they didn't shed any light on the problem, they only reaffirmed what I already believed. They did confirm my hearing is excellent through 7k hertz which was good to know. I wouldn't say its terrible but I certainly do not enjoy it either. I am more than willing to stuff anemone proteins and chord blood down my ears desperate for a solution.

 

[Mricha37]

Not gonna lie, the ion imbalance theory is a little far fetched. My T is due to me being an idiot and listening to music too loud, lost some hearing and bam, there it is. Pretty simple concept actually

 

[Ian Mac]

Not gonna lie, the ion imbalance theory is a little far fetched. My T is due to me being an idiot and listening to music too loud, lost some hearing and bam, there it is. Pretty simple concept actually

Yeah and you also have mild hydrops from the damage with resulting ion imbalance. But your T isn't too bad so why are you on here?

 

[Ian Mac]

Are you an Otologist? Have you seen my charts? Of course I'd like to know and better yet, have it fixed. If I am being told by someone who doesn't know me or my health history my T is due to having an ion imbalance from living an unhealthy lifestyle, I would tell them they don't know jack squat. Maybe it impacts some people but I am confident its not related to me. I trust my ENT about as far as I can throw them as they didn't shed any light on the problem, they only reaffirmed what I already believed. They did confirm my hearing is excellent through 7k hertz which was good to know. I wouldn't say its terrible but I certainly do not enjoy it either. I am more than willing to stuff anemone proteins and chord blood down my ears desperate for a solution.

That's fine, ignorance is bliss, trust your ENT that they know more than you about T. You need a referral to see the otologist, that is the one thing your ENT is good for, but you have to have catastrophic T so you probably don't qualify since your T isn't so bad.

 

[Mricha37]

Yeah and you also have mild hydrops from the damage with resulting ion imbalance. But your T isn't too bad so why are you on here?

I didn't know T caused dementia...cause you surely have it.

 

[TinnitusSicko]

Treating the symptom rather than the cause, i.e. "managing" a disease. I am too familiar with this. This is how western medicine works when the cause of a disease is unknown. At least in my mind, the right course of action is investigating and finding the root cause, fully understanding the problem, then devising a way or ways (if multiple) to treat it.

I agree with Samir. If oxygen sensor of my car engine does not function properly but still working it does not mean it is oxygen sensor a cause. Most of the reason of the malfunction is a black sooth covering a sensor which is due to poor engine/gasoline performance or lack of tuning, or bad driving habit etc. Human sensory parts are very complicated and connected with everything. It is very challenging to trace a cause. Flaw of modern medicine is that it is mechanistic and chemistic. There are electrical, magnetic and other things happening that we are not even aware of yet. Modern medicine foundation is a dollar. Have you seen a doctor making a living on healthy patients? Do you really think doctor's incentive is to keep you away from him/her? Have you seen a doctor coming home saying 'Honey, I am home. I had zero patients today and make money too'. eh?
Hundred of thousand years ago we were cannibals and we though it was a right and healthy thing to do. Do you really think that because we have iphones and other gadgets, it makes us 'smart' and civilized? We are still savage and barbarians committing genocide unaware of it every day.
Usually the tinnitus problem start with a visit to 'otolaryngologist' or ear neck throat or (ENT) specialist. However I think its not enough. Someone should be environmentalist, toxicologist, audiologist, dentist, neurologist and ENT specialist with non-intrusive tools for diagnosis. A holistic and thorough investigation with a full commitment from a patient. Most patients think of 'magic' pill for a 'quick' fix. Nature does not work like this. Unfortunately, specialties for a type of doctor or treatment I listed will not happen because we live in a world heavily dependent on industries that make money and support societies. Therefore environmentalist and toxicologist is very bad for business.

 

[JurgenG]

I agree with Samir. If oxygen sensor of my car engine does not function properly but still working it does not mean it is oxygen sensor a cause. Most of the reason of the malfunction is a black sooth covering a sensor which is due to poor engine/gasoline performance or lack of tuning, or bad driving habit etc. Human sensory parts are very complicated and connected with everything. It is very challenging to trace a cause. Flaw of modern medicine is that it is mechanistic and chemistic. There are electrical, magnetic and other things happening that we are not even aware of yet. Modern medicine foundation is a dollar. Have you seen a doctor making a living on healthy patients? Do you really think doctor's incentive is to keep you away from him/her? Have you seen a doctor coming home saying 'Honey, I am home. I had zero patients today and make money too'. eh?
Hundred of thousand years ago we were cannibals and we though it was a right and healthy thing to do. Do you really think that because we have iphones and other gadgets, it makes us 'smart' and civilized? We are still savage and barbarians committing genocide unaware of it every day.
Usually the tinnitus problem start with a visit to 'otolaryngologist' or ear neck throat or (ENT) specialist. However I think its not enough. Someone should be environmentalist, toxicologist, audiologist, dentist, neurologist and ENT specialist with non-intrusive tools for diagnosis. A holistic and thorough investigation with a full commitment from a patient. Most patients think of 'magic' pill for a 'quick' fix. Nature does not work like this. Unfortunately, specialties for a type of doctor or treatment I listed will not happen because we live in a world heavily dependent on industries that make money and support societies. Therefore environmentalist and toxicologist is very bad for business.

I agree partly with you. Especially about how medicine still works. We need something more advanced.
But argueing that this industry doesn't want to solve poblems, there is something I don't agree with. Companies that have the winning cure, win. As simple as that. May it be in one treatment or many. Otherwise they wouldn't invest in vaccines.

 

[Samir]

If oxygen sensor of my car engine does not function properly but still working it does not mean it is oxygen sensor a cause. Most of the reason of the malfunction is a black sooth covering a sensor which is due to poor engine/gasoline performance or lack of tuning, or bad driving habit etc.

Yeah, human error is obviously the ultimate cause! Not taking proper care for one's ears. Or driving a car like an idiot. But with that said, there is no need to reinvent the sensor if you can clean it up and have it working properly again.

Human sensory parts are very complicated and connected with everything. It is very challenging to trace a cause.

As noted above, the cause is about 40 cm from the screen!

Flaw of modern medicine is that it is mechanistic and chemistic.

Not to mention philosophical!

There are electrical, magnetic and other things happening that we are not even aware of yet.

Yeah! I just read an article in Nature, scientists discovered this new organ they call "brain".

Have you seen a doctor making a living on healthy patients? Do you really think doctor's incentive is to keep you away from him/her? Have you seen a doctor coming home saying 'Honey, I am home. I had zero patients today and make money too'. eh?

Yes, I have. In Sweden! Yes, I do. In Sweden, doctors make a living regardless if they see many patients or not. Of course, it's much easier not seeing any patients at all and still making the same money.

Hundred of thousand years ago we were cannibals and we though it was a right and healthy thing to do. Do you really think that because we have iphones and other gadgets, it makes us 'smart' and civilized? We are still savage and barbarians committing genocide unaware of it every day.

No, iPhones don't make us smart. Cannibalism does!

Usually the tinnitus problem start with a visit to 'otolaryngologist' or ear neck throat or (ENT) specialist.

No it doesn't! In Sweden, as in many other countries, it starts with a visit to the local GP doctor. You then visit an audiologist, and if you are lucky you get remittance to see an "ENT specialist".

In reality, ENT specialists are more like GP doctors of the ENT field. What you want is an Otologist for the ear, Rhinologist for the nose, and Laryngologist for the throat. Those are the truly specialized doctors for each of the three body parts. It's like a sub-specialization in the ENT field.

However I think its not enough. Someone should be environmentalist, toxicologist, audiologist, dentist, neurologist and ENT specialist with non-intrusive tools for diagnosis.

Wow, what a dream team! Environmentalist for sound safety control? Toxicologist for diagnosing ototoxicity? Audiologist for hearing diagnosis? Dentist for diagnosing TMD? Neurologist for diagnosing tinnitus? ENT/Otologist for diagnosing... cell damage?

A holistic and thorough investigation with a full commitment from a patient.

You mean "from" or "for"? The problem with the "holistic" approach is not due to lack of commitment from patients. It's due to lack of commitment from the medical professions, and the healthcare systems.

Most patients think of 'magic' pill for a 'quick' fix.

I don't! Maybe I am not "most" patients. I would be commit myself to undergoing all the necessary investigation. It's just that doctors don't share my view. They are the ones that give me a "quick fix" and send me off home. In case of hearing loss and tinnitus they can't even give me that much.

All they can do is tell me stories about ear anatomy and physiology. As if I did not have enough free time to read up on that on my own while waiting six months to get to one of these magical creatures called "ENT specialist". I may not know as much as they do about ear anatomy and physiology, but I certainly know more about the ear than the local GP now.

However, what I really want and need from the ENT/Otologist is a remedy, treatment, or a cure... whatever you want to call it, good things go under many names. I do not need them to educate me about how screwed I am! I already knew that before I came to them.

I would be happy to let them do a case study on me. The only risk is that they will learn something new! I have those disorders they call "rare", such as Red Ear Syndrome. (At doctors: Of course they are "rare" you morons, when you don't ask patients the right questions, and you don't give them enough time to talk to you, and you don't have interest in doing case studies.)

Nature does not work like this.

Nature is not fair! So for that reason nature can kiss my...

Unfortunately, specialties for a type of doctor or treatment I listed will not happen because we live in a world heavily dependent on industries that make money and support societies.

What will not happen? All those professions already exist. What would you want them to do? You mean like having them all involved in investigating a tinnitus patient? That may not happen because of high costs and political agenda. Not because we don't have those specialists.

What's wrong with making money and supporting your community? Money is what makes the Earth spin around its own axis. It's not gravity! Besides, I think you will find that the biggest industry is gas and oil industry.

Therefore environmentalist and toxicologist is very bad for business.

Maybe if you are Donald Trump! Thankfully, not every businessman shares such narrow view of business, the world, people and employees. Why have rules and regulations at all? Why have laws? Let's all switch to anarchy mode!

 

[Samir]

I agree partly with you. Especially about how medicine still works. We need something more advanced.

What do you mean? How is it that medicine still works? We may need something more advanced. But we have to first define the problem.

But argueing that this industry doesn't want to solve poblems, there is something I don't agree with. Companies that have the winning cure, win. As simple as that. May it be in one treatment or many. Otherwise they wouldn't invest in vaccines.

It seems to me like you are both confusing pharmaceutical industry with healthcare systems. Healthcare system doesn't have any treatment for hearing loss or for tinnitus. Pharmaceutical companies are seeking medical treatments to meet this need, and of course make money on it. But where is the conflict of interest? I don't see any.