Learn from Others' Mistakes

[Bill Bauer]

in NEWER on-sets the ear is more sensitive to this and we should take more pre-caution.

This is consistent with my experiences. Several weeks ago I got exposed to noises that in the past would have surely caused a spike. One of those times, an asshole driving an expensive sports car had floored his gas pedal when he was close to where I was walking. I just came out of a quiet museum and I forgot to insert my earplug. The noise that he made was unbelievably loud, but it didn't cause any spikes. It seems to be the case that one might get more resilient with time. Having said this, I will never willingly expose myself to noise again.

 

[Bill Bauer]

dont be afraid to live your life...i am proof that you definitively can

The above will be true only if you are able to "live your life" as if you have never had T, until the end of your life. As I wrote many times before, it is actually not easy (and can take a long time) to get a permanent spike. The way I see it, you have been busy working on getting one. I hope that you won't "succeed", but you know how those things can be...

as long as you have proper protection (CUSTOM FITTED MUSICIAN EARPLUGS) you will have no issues

You are posting this in a thread that provides evidence that the above is not always going to be the case (see post #1).

 

[AZeurotuner]

Sorry.

You want to set the volume to be as high as possible, while still allowing you to watch TV for several hours and not get a spike.

If your tinnitus increases when you don't use hearing protection, and your hyperacusis gets worse when you use hearing protection, then you choose the action that results in the least distress for you...

This is consistent with my experiences. Several weeks ago I got exposed to noises that in the past would have surely caused a spike. One of those times, an asshole driving an expensive sports car had floored his gas pedal when he was close to where I was walking. I just came out of a quiet museum and I forgot to insert my earplug. The noise that he made was unbelievably loud, but it didn't cause any spikes. It seems to be the case that one might get more resilient with time. Having said this, I will never willingly expose myself to noise again.

I tried to stay out of this one but there's only so long that I can bite my tongue. So let me get this one correct.... Overprotecting and avoiding loud places, even with earplugs/muffs, is good. Reasonably protecting your ears is bad.

So your advice is to overprotect but listen to the TV loudly for two hours. Keeping in mind that television shows and commercials can have some pretty loud peaks, peaks that come out of nowhere, peaks that you weren't expecting. Sound familiar (hint- just like real life)?

You mentioned that your H has gotten much better, even resisting a spike from a loud vehicle. So tell me Mr. Bauer; what is the difference between what @Michael Leigh and @Ed209 are recommending?

I'll tell you... One mindset involves secluding yourself from others, avoiding social events, and being in a constant state of fear. The other allows you to live a mostly normal lifestyle. You have defeated yourself on this one Mr. Bauer....

 

[Sven]

I can't see anything negative with this post. What it all boils down to is simply to not expose yourself to unnecessary risks and be careful even when you're using ear protection. I agree with Bill. It sure can give you a false sense of security.

Then again, we don't now for sure whether our ears are more sensitive to further damage or not, but I'm leaning towards "yes".

 

[Tinker Bell]

I tried to stay out of this one but there's only so long that I can bite my tongue. So let me get this one correct.... Overprotecting and avoiding loud places, even with earplugs/muffs, is good. Reasonably protecting your ears is bad.

So your advice is to overprotect but listen to the TV loudly for two hours. Keeping in mind that television shows and commercials can have some pretty loud peaks, peaks that come out of nowhere, peaks that you weren't expecting. Sound familiar (hint- just like real life)?

You mentioned that your H has gotten much better, even resisting a spike from a loud vehicle. So tell me Mr. Bauer; what is the difference between what @Michael Leigh and @Ed209 are recommending?

I'll tell you... One mindset involves secluding yourself from others, avoiding social events, and being in a constant state of fear. The other allows you to live a mostly normal lifestyle. You have defeated yourself on this one Mr. Bauer....

This is exactly why Bill addressing my questions would be helpful. How many of the quoted individuals had hyperacusis? We cannot overlook the role hyperacusis plays nor its influence on tinnitus. Hyperacusis is a significant complication to tinnitus.

And I sincerely do not understand the TV for several hours recommendation. Why not recommend listening to a sound machine? Why TV? Frankly I do not have time nor any interest in spending two or three hours a day watching TV. With my hearing loss, TV watching is not easy. When I initially had hyperacusis it was awful, sound through the TV was too unnatural and distorted. My tinnitus would spike to even the TV on low volume, as if the gain increased due to me straining to hear and understand the dialogue — even when I used closed captioning.

 

[Tinker Bell]

I can't see anything negative with this post. What it all boils down to is simply to not expose yourself to unnecessary risks and be careful even when you're using ear protection. I agree with Bill. It sure can give you a false sense of security.

Then again, we don't now for sure whether our ears are more sensitive to further damage or not, but I'm leaning towards "yes".

I think the discrepancy lies in the author's view of what is an unnecessary risk. All social situations are an unnecessary risk. Restaurants, movie theaters, walking down the street without earmuffs, driving in a vehicle with working airbags, having working smoke detectors, the location of your profile picture . . . those are all things the author has deemed unnecessary risks. At one point he considered showering an unnecessary risk.

By all means, make an effort to avoid true unnecessary risks and keep ear protection on hand. But we need to not let paranoia and anxiety warp our ability to gauge risk levels.

We also need to not ignore the difference between tinnitus and tinnitus with hyperacusis. There is a significant difference between the two.

 

[Michael Leigh]

You mentioned that your H has gotten much better, even resisting a spike from a loud vehicle. So tell me Mr. Bauer; what

@Bill Bauer tinnitus and hyperacusis may indeed have gotten better. This usually happens over a period of time and can take up to two years or longer to reach full habituation to the tinnitus and for the hyperacusis to be significantly reduced or completely cured. This can happen naturally or using self help as Bill is doing or following the recommendations in my post: Hyperacusis, As I see it. https://www.tinnitustalk.com/threads/hyperacusis-as-i-see-it.19174/ Hyperacusis like tinnitus comes in different levels of severity and often brought on by "noise trauma" but not in every case. When it is severe it can make tinnitus very difficult to habituate to and one will be prone to experiencing spikes on a regular basis. In less severe forms of hyperacusis, it can be possible to habituate to tinnitus but spikes can still remain a problem.

Although hyperacusis can reduce significantly or cured by natural means over time. In severe cases specialist treatment will be required to fully desensitise the auditory system. It requires the wearing of white noise generators that need to be worn for up to 10hrs a day and a sound machine used by the bedside at night for sound enrichment. Because a person's emotional wellbeing is often affected with tinnitus and hyperaucusis, when undergoing this treatment counselling with a Hearing Therapist or Audiologist will be needed. Counselling with a therapist trained in the treatment and management of tinnitus and hypercusis, helps to takeaway and demystify the negative thinking that is often associated with these conditions. If one attempts to wear white noise generators alone for self treatment and not have tinnitus counselling, the treatment may not be effective.

I understand that TRT and CBT can be very expensive but in severe cases of tinnitus and hyperacusis these treatments may be required. They are not a complete cure but can be effective in helping a person to manage these conditions and have a better quality of life.

Michael

 

[AZeurotuner]

This is exactly why Bill addressing my questions would be helpful. How many of the quoted individuals had hyperacusis? We cannot overlook the role hyperacusis plays nor its influence on tinnitus. Hyperacusis is a significant complication to tinnitus.

And I sincerely do not understand the TV for several hours recommendation. Why not recommend listening to a sound machine? Why TV? Frankly I do not have time nor any interest in spending two or three hours a day watching TV. With my hearing loss, TV watching is not easy. When I initially had hyperacusis it was awful, sound through the TV was too unnatural and distorted. My tinnitus would spike to even the TV on low volume, as if the gain increased due to me straining to hear and understand the dialogue — even when I used closed captioning.

I agree, listening to the TV for hours loudly just doesn't make sense to me. Television volume is extremely unpredictable, it can easily spike peak beyond the hundred decibel mark and a lot of times it's unexpected so you can't even cover your ears. Bill has decided that for whatever reason, attending a loud social event with plugs (which would be comparable to a loud television, provided plugs are high quality and worn properly) is harmful and foolish, and anybody who says otherwise is simply ignorant.

Now I personally wouldn't ever recommend concerts or nightclubs for T sufferers, Bill and I agree on that much. However, I believe there's plenty of places and events that we can still go to, provided we take the necessary precautions. T shouldn't be a social death sentence.

Based on what I've read from Bill, he isn't really the social type. So for him, it's not a big deal at all to avoid social gatherings because he didn't real engage in such activities even before the onset of his T. What he doesn't understand is that most people are social individuals, it makes a huge impact on their lives to abstain from human interaction. His advice is quite flawed because it only takes into himself, not the general T population.

So in inclusion, not only are Bill's recommendations on avoiding noise fallacious due to the reasons mentioned in my first paragraph, they are also flawed because of the fact that he doesn't take into consideration the social nature of most T suffers. He of course will never concede though, because he is an extremely stubborn and antisocial person.

 

[eldudebro]

I don't think it's a a massive secret to those with noise induced tinnitus that continued exposure to loud situations may exacerbate the condition.

I can only speak of my own experience of having noise induced T, then exacerbated it with loud noise exposure a couple years after onset. I still attend loud venues, I still attend the cinema, I still do (mostly) everything I did before the tinnitus arrived. I protect my ears now when I find myself somewhere really loud is the only main difference, that and I no longer use headphones.

I've weighed up the risks of possible worsening and have decided actually enjoying and living my life is more important. Locking myself away from the things I love doing would depress me just as much as the tinnitus did when it first arrived in my life.

Severe cases of T and H are very rare. I think people lose sight of that on here. I joined this forum way back in 2014 and just about all the regular posters I can remember from that time have gone and are now no doubt going about their lives as normal. These are the sorts of messages we should be getting out to newbies to the condition and not the doom and gloom of threads like these, although I do appreciate the underlying message of weighing up and minimizing the risks of future noise exposure.

 

[Bill Bauer]

And I sincerely do not understand the TV for several hours recommendation. Why not recommend listening to a sound machine? Why TV?

It was just one example of something that could be done. You are right, a sound machine will work too. The point is that it is very easy to avoid getting hyperacusis.

Restaurants, movie theaters, walking down the street without earmuffs, driving in a vehicle with working airbags, having working smoke detectors, the location of your profile picture . . . those are all things the author has deemed unnecessary risks.

I agree with all of the above (except for the "location of your profile picture" one). You can wear earplugs to walk along a busy street.

I think it is self evident that movie theaters, loud restaurants, air bags, and fire alarms are unsafe.

 

[John_415]

All of this is so confusing for me.
I drove yesterday to a support meeting.
It was an hour away on busy Chicago area streets
I didn't wear ear protection.
I drive a 2016 Ford Fusion sedan.
The meeting was a bit loud for me. People taking with loud voices. A heavy door opening and closing. It bothered me.
Then I drove home without protection.
My tinnitus is louder today and was last night.

I just don't know what to do.
Should I wear ear protection driving?
At the grocery store?
If, so what kind? Foam blues, musicians filtered plugs? Muffs?

Also, my hyperacusis seems to be worsening. I'm more sensitive to everyday sounds than I was before. Toilet flushing, doors closing ect.

I need to go out into the world.
I don't go to places with loud music or anything.

This debate just makes me so confused on what to do.

Hey, that sucks happening while going to a support meeting non the less.

I listenened to a video about state of the art smart hearing protection for the US military after which I got a small spike. The start of the video is silent... but then they shoot off a gun to show you what could happen to a soldier not wearing protection. They play it looud, to get accross the point-_-.
Anyway the article is interessting (watch out with the video ok):
https://techcrunch.com/2016/06/05/tcaps-hearing-aids/?guccounter=1
Its about smart hearing protection for soldiers. It costs 2000,-. After this I thought well, if they can wear smart hearing protection I can do that to. So I bhought this one:
https://www.etymotic.com/consumer/hearing-protection/mp915.html
Its only 300,-. But its no hassle wearing it, protects well, is inconspicuous, you can understand normal conversations just fine, but if some jack-ass hits a metal hamer on a metal plate somewhere, it will instantaneously kick in and protect you.
I have been wearing it a couple days now and it blocks all sounds above 80Db fairly well. I tried it.

Haha I plug an ear when flushing now, my hyperacausis has increased a lot lately. Im betting on these plugs now and perhaps will wear them all day. Im on prednison now to ward of a spike and really don't feel like either overprotecting with passive hearing protection (and feel like im walking around with my head in a bucket) or playing the Russian roulete game of potential higher and higher spikes.
Be safe!

 

[SugarMagnolia]

The author is trying to prove that tinnitus sufferers are more susceptible to renewed noise than healthy hearers.
This may be the case for tinnitus sufferers with auditory trauma.
However, at most 40% of those affected by tinnitus are certain that they have tinnitus as a result of noise.

I'm in that 40%. That's why I'm interested in the answer to this question.

 

[Bill Bauer]

plug an ear when flushing now

Make sure to close the lid.

Im on prednison now to ward of a spike

What was the sound that convinced you to begin taking prednisone. If you don't get a spike after a day or two, you might consider stopping taking prednisone. You want to do what you can to minimize the number of pills of prednisone that you end up taking.

 

[John_415]

I hope that in this thread people will post the descriptions of incidents that all of us could learn from.

My tinnitus had improved greatly over the first three months (and changed to a hiss). After I accidentally pressed a loud landline phone (its volume stuck at Max) to my bad ear and the person on the other end raised her voice to greet me (I moved my hand away right away, but it was too late), my T changed back to a high pitched noise and got a lot louder. That spike took more than three months to fade, but it had certainly interfered with my recovery. It was a major setback. So you might want to T-proof your home . If you know that something is loud - get rid of it.

Below are more testimonies. Some of them seem to imply that our ears have been compromised and that the sounds that the healthy people won't even notice can have a devastating consequences for people like us. Other testimonies seem to imply that earplugs and ear muffs can provide only a false sense of security.

Of course many people take those risks and are ok. It doesn't mean that they will always be ok. If you begin hitting a wall with a hammer, it takes some time before you get to see the objects on the other side of the wall. Also they will never know whether their tinnitus would have faded, had they not taken those risks.

To me tinnitus is so horrific that I would be willing to pay a high price to reduce/eliminate even a small chance that tinnitus will get worse (or get a small chance that it will fade). The testimonies below seem to prove that a small (or is it not so small?!) risk does exist, and can be eliminated if we go out of our way to protect our ears (and do not willingly expose ourselves to noise).

Having said the above, my own experiences seem to suggest that what can cause big problems during the first 6-12 months, can often be tolerated during your second year. My advice is for you to be extra careful during your first year, and then you will want to "play it by ear."

Unfortunately there had not been any studies about what can cause permanent and temporary spikes. http://hyperacusisfocus.org/research/earplug-use-2/
"While there are over 2200 posts on hyperacusis setbacks in the patient forum on chat-hyperacusis.net, no academic papers could be found using a pubmed search."

The fact that there have been no published studies regarding what causes permanent and temporary T spikes, means there is no scientific reason behind doctor advice to only protect your ears against noises that are known to damage the inner ear. They are basing this advice on studies that talk about what can damage healthy ears, whereas what can hurt us hasn't been studied (and the overwhelming number of testimonies on this site imply that sounds that can hurt us are Way quieter than the sounds that can damage healthy ears).

Click on the "up arrow" to see the messages below in context.






























































Hopefully this thread will help to raise awareness.

Thanks for this thread Bill! Your like the Joda of this forum, and I am merely a humble jedi.
But all kidding asside, I have light T now. Had 2 spikes lately and was looking over this site top to bottom looking for the correct road to take with either overprotection or underprotection.
I guess this T thing is a bit of a Russian roulette game after all, and you input your own stakes.
I made a tread about the chances of T increasing or decreasing as time goes on for people on this forum:
https://www.tinnitustalk.com/thread...ter-noise-induced-tinnitus.29191/#post-340070
Its pointing convincingly toward the increasing issues trend. My ENT doctor had similar warnings about further exposure. Of course you could argue that all the healed people are not on this forum and thus could not vote.. but lets stay real here.

 

[John_415]

Make sure to close the lid.

What was the sound that convinced you to begin taking prednisone. If you don't get a spike after a day or two, you might consider stopping taking prednisone. You want to do what you can to minimize the number of pills of prednisone that you end up taking.

Close lid, check.

Unplugging and plugging back in my speaker cable, I virtually never do that. The speakers where 60W, they produce quite the crackle. Now I have 10W speakers and am selling the old ones.
The spike lasted for about 1 week, it started subsiding and 1 week later the next one upped it again. Started pred for 10 days 60mg at day 10 after the spike (altough I did take 2x 60mg I had around at day 2 hoping that would be enough).
Had 2 very quiet days yesterday and the day before (did some meditation then also, very fitting).
Im using prednison for 5 days now, the spike was gone, now just today it returned slightly. Thinking of doing the last 3 days to finallize this. And at this moment im doing experiments with wearing the Smart Etymotic Music Pro earplugs (which I now always have with me) thinking about wearing them all day to protect me from any new above 80db experiences.

 

[Bill Bauer]

Its pointing convincingly toward the increasing issues trend.

It would be interesting to learn whether or not those whose T has increased, have been protecting their ears...

 

[Bill Bauer]

Started pred for 10 days 60mg at day 10 after the spike (altough I did take 2x 60mg I had around at day 2 hoping that would be enough).

Look for the information about prednisone on this forum. Whether or not the treatment following an acoustic trauma requires taking prednisone is not an easy question to answer.

 

[Bill Bauer]

I made a tread about the chances of T increasing or decreasing as time goes on for people on this forum:
https://www.tinnitustalk.com/thread...ter-noise-induced-tinnitus.29191/#post-340070

When I first saw the poll above, I didn't notice that the first two options were

It has increased a lot because of further noise exposure 9 vote(s) 32.1%
It has increased a bit because of further noise exposure 8 vote(s) 28.6%

I think that your poll complements this thread very nicely. It is sad that 17 people had experienced louder T as a result of further noise exposure...

 

[John_415]

Look for the information about prednisone on this forum. Whether or not the treatment following an acoustic trauma requires taking prednisone is not an easy question to answer.

Yeah I did a lot of researching on prednisone. Taking it early does the most good but then again its also a risky endeavor, plus no fun. Like I get a lot of appitite for weard things.
I laughed really hard when looking at this picture while Googling that aspect of prednison.

 

[Alue]

Thus far two people whom I quoted in my original post had posted in this thread. Neither one appears to believe that they had been quoted out of context. I am glad that that's the case. The last thing I want to do, is to take someone's heartfelt post and to quote it out of context.

Well I do agree that context matters. I believe the quote I made was in response to Ed saying someone's spike was likely due to their phobia of sound and not the additional noise adding insult to injury.

I have had a lot of unexpected loud noise exposures that have not affected me or only caused temporary spikes lasting a few days or less. Only once has it caused a lasting worsening, and that was an odd situation with a delayed response (the new tone that developed wasn't immediate, but it happened days later).

The reason I did respond to this thread was Fishbone's response saying: "I can go through all your copy n pasted material and DEBUNK them all." which I do take issue with.

I think most people with tinnitus that do not have hyperacusis can get on with their lives just fine while only protecting from very loud noise exposure. There is a small percentage of people that have hyperacusis / reactive tinnitus, etc. that this does not hold true for. What bothers me is when people in the former category assume that what works for them should work for everyone else.

This is exactly why Bill addressing my questions would be helpful. How many of the quoted individuals had hyperacusis? We cannot overlook the role hyperacusis plays nor its influence on tinnitus. Hyperacusis is a significant complication to tinnitus.

I would guess the majority do have some form of hyperacusis or another. From the names that I recognize on that list they do. I started to fill out the questionnaire you had posted in this thread, but I think it would be better if it was a survey that was anonymized. Or possibly something to be included in the site wide surveys that occasionally go out.

 

[New Guy]

I think most people with tinnitus that do not have hyperacusis can get on with their lives just fine while only protecting from very loud noise exposure. There is a small percentage of people that have hyperacusis / reactive tinnitus, etc. that this does not hold true for. What bothers me is when people in the former category assume that what works for them should work for everyone else.

I agree @Alue . As I already mentioned I think people new to t are more sensitive to sound than those with t for years. I hope that's the case....

 

[AZeurotuner]

I think most people with tinnitus that do not have hyperacusis can get on with their lives just fine while only protecting from very loud noise exposure. There is a small percentage of people that have hyperacusis / reactive tinnitus, etc. that this does not hold true for. What bothers me is when people in the former category assume that what works for them should work for everyone else.

I have profound hearing loss in higher frequencies and have have been through severe hyperacusis and reactivity to certain sounds, in other words my ears are massively damaged. Read my previous post, Bill's "techniques" don't even make sense, and surprisingly, he had no response to my post. Quite telling considering he always replies back to me, even though I'm supposedly on his ban list.

 

[Lane]

Just ran across this thread today, and am astonished by some of the fairly hostile rhetoric on the part of Bill's detractors, which quite honestly, I have a hard time understanding. It seems so obvious to me that despite all of us dealing with various forms and combinations of t and/or h, we all have UNIQUELY individual circumstances. And we must all adjust accordingly.

Since running water from a faucet, or taking a shower, or even peeing in the toilet sets of a EEEEEeeeeeeeee for me, I adjust accordingly (I pee like a girl now). Because of my extreme vulnerability to all sounds at this time, I think Bill's giving information that we have varying degrees of vulnerability to even modest noises in the first 6-12 following onset seems quite sensible. And for my part well taken, and very much appreciated.

I do NOT believe Bill is a fear monger (ludicrous accusation if ever I've seen one!). He strikes me as a person who is dealing with his own very difficult situation in a way I truly admire--to do whatever he can to save another person from a similar horrid fate. I don't see what's wrong with that kind of genuine caring for one's fellow human beings. And finally, in my book, passionately caring for others is NOT obsessive, as I've seen suggested on this thread.

Best to All...

 

[Tinker Bell]

Well I do agree that context matters. I believe the quote I made was in response to Ed saying someone's spike was likely due to their phobia of sound and not the additional noise adding insult to injury.

I have had a lot of unexpected loud noise exposures that have not affected me or only caused temporary spikes lasting a few days or less. Only once has it caused a lasting worsening, and that was an odd situation with a delayed response (the new tone that developed wasn't immediate, but it happened days later).

The reason I did respond to this thread was Fishbone's response saying: "I can go through all your copy n pasted material and DEBUNK them all." which I do take issue with.

I think most people with tinnitus that do not have hyperacusis can get on with their lives just fine while only protecting from very loud noise exposure. There is a small percentage of people that have hyperacusis / reactive tinnitus, etc. that this does not hold true for. What bothers me is when people in the former category assume that what works for them should work for everyone else.



I would guess the majority do have some form of hyperacusis or another. From the names that I recognize on that list they do. I started to fill out the questionnaire you had posted in this thread, but I think it would be better if it was a survey that was anonymized. Or possibly something to be included in the site wide surveys that occasionally go out.

I agree. Hyperacusis adds a layer of complexity that should not be overlooked.

 

[AZeurotuner]

we all have UNIQUELY individual circumstances. And we must all adjust accordingly.

And there lies one of the biggest fallacies of Bill's "advice", he suggests that everyone follow the same protocol. He's telling folks to do what works for him, a "one size fits all" approach, exactly what he and his supporters accuse the other side of doing. Read my previous post (the long one)... What would be your retort to that?

 

[fishbone]

And there lies one of the biggest fallacies of Bill's "advice", he suggests that everyone follow the same protocol. He's telling folks to do what works for him, a "one size fits all" approach, exactly what he and his supporters accuse the other side of doing. Read my previous post (the long one)... What would be your retort to that?

Bill's advices are too extreme, hope folks reading his posts and copy n pastes with a grain of salt...

 

[Bill Bauer]

Then again, we don't now for sure whether our ears are more sensitive to further damage or not, but I'm leaning towards "yes".

Hello, Sven

I remember that you had a serious spike (caused by attending a party) earlier this year. How are you feeling now?

 

[Bill Bauer]

Bill's advices are too extreme

Why?

In my opinion your advices are too extreme (see the posts that I am about to list in my next message, for a sample of experiences of people who had actually followed your advices, and you will see why I think that they are too extreme).

 

[Greg Sacramento]

All relates to those with tinnitus and hearing loss.

The amount of things that can cause a spike are many. Some may be certain medications, certain hearing exams when one has ASD, high pressure wax removal that is still performed in clinics in the USA, stuff that we eat and dental bone conduction.

Bone conduction and promised cervical arteries conditions are affected by loud vibration noise. Vibration noise can travel thru the mouth, up the spinal cord either by noise reflecting off a hard surface or from holding on to something that vibrates. Those that also have heart conditions, high blood pressure, artery conditions and muscle weakness need to be careful around loud noise.

Head phones don't protect against vibration noise. Over protection can affect the auditory system. Under protection around loud noise can harm some. Tinnitus has many catch 22 situations and what may affect one may not always affect someone else. So why can't we agree not to disagree. I think that we can all agree that there should be more public service and enforcement per loud noise.

 

[Bill Bauer]

What has this thread really achieved?

The first post in this thread had 6 people rating it as"informative", 2 people assigning it a "helpful" rating, and 4 people "liking" it. Give it time - I expect those numbers to grow.

4 pages of debates

You are one of the people who *** into this thread, making it difficult for the people who want to learn from others' mistakes to find the posts that they wanted to read in this thread.

Thus far the following are the posts that will allow you to Learn From Others' Mistakes:
posts #1, #17, #32 (@New Guy 's post), #34 (@Autumnly 's post), #39 (@Mellow7 's post), #48 (@lena_ 's post), #50 (@TracyJS 's post), and post #62(@dpdx 's post).