Learn from Others' Mistakes

[fishbone]

Why?

In my opinion your advices are too extreme (see the posts that I am about to list in my next message, for a sample of experiences of people who had actually followed your advices, and you will see why I think that they are too extreme).

Yes, but the difference between you and I is that I have a life and live a life. I don't let tinnitus, put fear into my life, the way you have done it and are preaching in this thread....My lifestyle lately also has not increased my tinnitus either nor have i got spikes from it....You copy n paste random samples without even knowing their full story and try to make a point that is not even 100% valid and convincing....

You are simply brainwashing poor people that are suffering. This thread as I have stated before just spreads fear and paranoia....

 

[Bill Bauer]

he suggests that everyone follow the same protocol.

I don't.

But I agree - if everyday loud noises had never given you any spikes, then it is possible that you are one of the lucky people who don't need to worry too much about this. For people like you, if the cost (in terms of effort and missed experiences) is low, it still makes sense to try to avoid loud noises, though.

This is not a proof, it is information that people are free to use or to ignore. Of course, each post alone is not very useful, but when they are all placed in one thread, it makes it easier for one to assess what to make of them all.

The only message I am trying to make is

people should listen to their bodies

It is also important to be aware of the fact that just because something sounds harmless (e.g., music at the mall, being at a movie theater while wearing hearing protection) does not mean that it is actually harmless. So if you begin experiencing symptoms such as ear fullness, you should not tell yourself "it is impossible for this to actually do me any harm", you should be aware that it is certainly possible for it to be dangerous.

Television volume is extremely unpredictable, it can easily spike peak beyond the hundred decibel mark

There are posts on this forum describing how one can adjust one's computer/TV settings to ensure that the sounds generated by the device do not exceed a certain threshold.

What he doesn't understand is that most people are social individuals, it makes a huge impact on their lives to abstain from human interaction.

I wrote

if the cost (in terms of effort and missed experiences) is low, it still makes sense to try to avoid loud noises, though.

So if your cost is high and exceeds your expected benefit - you know what to do.

 

[Bill Bauer]

Yes, but the difference between you and I is that I have a life and live a life.

Proving to a person that my life is better than his or her life sounds ridiculous to me. Winning such a contest would not make me feel good. But trust me that many people would rate my life to be more exciting than your life.

You copy n paste random samples without even knowing their full story

Surprisingly, none of the people I quoted who posted in this thread thought that I quoted them out of context.

 

[Bill Bauer]

A bunch of people who had posted in this thread had pointed out that many of us are sensitive to the stress in our lives, in the sense that stress can cause T to get louder (see the quotes below). Note that a healthy person can experience the same level of stress and not get any problems (as far as T is concerned).

I would like to thank @Greg Sacramento for pointing me to the link below
http://www.businessinsider.com/noise-pollution-effects-human-hearing-health-quality-of-life-2018-1

The human ear can tolerate noise up to 85 decibels without damage. Anything louder poses a risk of permanent hearing loss. Yet, studies show that anything at or above 65 decibels can trigger an increase in blood pressure, heart rate, and stress hormones in the blood. Over time, we can get used to these sounds but that doesn't make them any less dangerous.

The above implies that moderate noises can cause stress, which could then cause T to spike...

=====

You say that people go to concerts and their tinnitus is worst? Let me ask you this, how much stress/anxiety did they have towards that concert?

I don't know if this person has stress/anxiety or not.

You have to understand that tinnitus is directly associated with the emotional processing centres of the brain and nervous system, so any kind of fear response that is linked with the tinnitus signal, can and will, cause a spike. The stress relationship is well documented.

In addition to noise, there may be other reasons for a spike: Diet, meals, sodium, sugar, hydration, caffeine, alcohol, tobacco, weather, barometric pressure, medications, supplements, exercise, sleep, quality of sleep, sleeping position, stress...

 

[Bill Bauer]

I'll tell you... One mindset involves secluding yourself from others, avoiding social events, and being in a constant state of fear. The other allows you to live a mostly normal lifestyle.

I am not sure why one couldn't avoid noises and also socialize.

Also, I am not in a state of fear (and the others, who are protecting their ears and who had posted in this thread, don't seem to be in a state of fear either). I have nothing to be afraid of - I stay away from loud places, or I wear sufficient protection to not worry about the noise.

It is T spikes that cause the stress and fear. If one's T is not spiking and one tries not to be reckless, one's stress levels will be low.

If one is not aware of the danger, exposes oneself to noise and gets a spike, THEN one becomes fearful and stressed out.

 

[flobo]

Since i'm quoted here, i'm going to expand on my case.

Tinnitus after 25 minutes in a concert last year (first ever concert, i hate loud place/noise, never gone to one in my life before).

I got 3 sounds on my right ear : constant static, pulsative sound & reactive tinnitus (whistle that come when i'm exposed to constant sound like a fan, disappear after a few hours in silence).

Metallic sounds were weird and felt like they hurt a bit.

Since ENT told me not to protect, i didn't, and two weeks later (after hearing things like the house ringing bell, dishes clinging) i got to the point even the tic toc of my bedroom's clock hurt.

I started wearing custom earplugs with sometime Peltor X5A outside, the whole pain thing disappeared within 3 months (no pain whatsoever ever since).

Pulsative tinnitus faded as well, and my tinnitus started to react less & less (still does when i'm near a fan of a long time but now it no longer react to water running or wind, which is already much more livable).

Once, late last year, i was outside and made the mistake of only protecting my right ear, since the left was T-free. There was a huge noise in the street which made my left ear start to ring. It stopped after a day.

2 months ago, at home, i had the "skype call" incident that is quoted in this topic.
A new sound appeared in my right ear which thankfully faded more or less after 3 weeks.

Last month, i was with a friend at a (probably too loud) shopping center near London for less than an hour (wearing earplugs + Peltor X4A on top). I was slighly lifting the Peltor X4A from my left ear here and then to be able to hear what my friend was saying to me (leaving only the earplug to protect me for those few seconds).
When i got out, i had full ear just like last year after the trauma.
The next day, tinnitus started in my left ear (much lower than in my right ear still).

Over the next few days, that new tinnitus got worse and is now pretty much the same level as my right ear tinnitus.
It's been there for 5 weeks now so i guess it's here to stay as well.


Of course, that's my experience but what i've learned for me is that
1/ My ear can no longer handle sound levels that were perfectly safe before my first trauma a year ago (i've been to that same place a few times with no ear protection before my first trauma).
2/ Ear protection do not fully protect, trauma can still happen.

But we are all different. My tinnitus isn't your tinnitus. Basically, i'd advice people to go slow, see how it goes and protect accordingly but better safe than sorry.
Your ears WILL let you know if they don't like what you are doing to them.

 

[fishbone]

Proving to a person that my life is better than his or her life sounds ridiculous to me. Winning such a contest would not make me feel good. But trust me that many people would rate my life to be more exciting than your life.

Surprisingly, none of the people I quoted who posted in this thread thought that I quoted them out of context.

Your life is exciting? Please share how exciting it is to be YOU? You live a hermit life full of constant fear/paranoia and preach fear to these people 24-7, let's not spew BS Bill.

 

[Bill Bauer]

Your life is exciting? Please share how exciting it is to be YOU? You live a hermit life full of constant fear/paranoia and preach fear to these people 24-7, let's not spew BS Bill.

In addition to not enjoying boasting, I also don't want to jinx it (nor do I want to get people envious). Let's just say that the 11 years of education that I have had after I graduated from high school had paid off.

And I had already explained that I am not experiencing any fear. You wouldn't say that the people who don't drive over the speed limit are living in fear, right? Those people have a (good) habit, and are not giving it a second thought.

 

[kelpiemsp]

In addition to not enjoying boasting, I also don't want to jinx it (nor do I want to get people envious). Let's just say that the 11 years of education that I have had after I graduated from high school had paid off.

And I had already explained that I am not experiencing any fear. You wouldn't say that the people who don't drive over the speed limit are living in fear, right? Those people have a (good) habit, and are not giving it a second thought.

With all of your education, I assume you are familiar with the Johari Window. Sometimes, it is OK to accept what other people see and acknowledge it. It is truly the first step.

 

[Bill Bauer]

Sometimes, it is OK to accept what other people see and acknowledge it.

The above is not true when the other people have laughably little information about me and my life.

 

[kelpiemsp]

The above is not true when the other people have laughably little information about me and my life.

That would be the facade. I am referring to the window known as the Blind Spot. And no, a person does not need to know all the details of your life, or very much really, to make certain inferences. Any well trained Psych could do it in 5 minutes of browsing through your posts.

 

[Bill Bauer]

And no, a person does not need to know all the details of your life, or very much really, to make certain inferences.

We are not talking about my personality, we are talking about the quality of my life. You can't judge the quality of my life if you don't know much about it.

 

[kelpiemsp]

We are not talking about my personality, we are talking about the quality of my life. You can't judge the quality of my life if you don't know much about it.

I am talking about fear.

It certainly may be possible to live a high quality of life, while living in constant fear. You just are at a different level of necessity in Maslow's Pyramid. Nothing wrong with that.

 

[Bill Bauer]

I am talking about fear.

And I had already explained that I am not experiencing any fear. You wouldn't say that the people who don't drive over the speed limit are living in fear, right? Those people have a (good) habit, and are not giving it a second thought.

 

[kelpiemsp]

They very well may be. In fact from my anecdotal evidence, every person I have met that stays below the speed limit does so out of fear, not because they believe they are doing good. For example, I have done much research on traffic deaths. It is far safer (in reality) to drive faster than the speed limit IF that is the speed of traffic. However, people drive slower out of misplaced fear. Fear of getting pulled over, fear of breaking a law, fear of not being able to handle their vehicle.

Use a different analogy.

 

[Bill Bauer]

Use a different analogy.

Brushing your teeth.

 

[Bill Bauer]

people drive slower out of misplaced fear

It could also have something to do with culture. Most (all?) of the (many) German pedestrians I had a chance to observe, did not cross an empty road and waited for the light to turn green.

 

[Bill Bauer]

However, people drive slower out of misplaced fear. Fear of getting pulled over, fear of breaking a law

When the speeding fine is high enough, the fear of being pulled over is NOT misplaced. After I paid over $1000 in speeding tickets, I learned that whereas speeding might be ok in Canada, it is NOT a good idea to exceed the speed limit when you drive in the United States.

 

[kelpiemsp]

When the speeding fine is high enough, the fear of being pulled over is NOT misplaced. After I paid over $1000 in speeding tickets, I learned that whereas speeding might be ok in Canada, it is NOT a good idea to exceed the speed limit when you drive in the United States.

If you live in the US 5 miles over is safe for under 65 and 9 miles over for over 65 and you won't be pulled over! Unless it's the speed of traffic. And your other analogies don't follow. You have moved the goal posts. Brushing teeth is not analogous at all. And with Germany, that again is very different (although I do believe you are right, it is a cultural thing).

 

[Bill Bauer]

Brushing teeth is not analogous at all.

Why not? I could say that you are brushing your teeth because you live in fear of having bad breath, getting a cavity, etc.

with Germany, that again is very different

Why?

 

[Bill Bauer]

Recall that we are talking about why I do what I do. I explained that I do what I consider to be right for the same reason I brush my teeth and for the same reason the Germans follow the rules. The people who brush their teeth and the Germans would not agree that their behaviour proves that they are living in fear, and neither would I.

 

[kelpiemsp]

Because, both examples fall within what we consider as normative behaviour. Follow normative schemas, does not count as fear. Advising extreme behaviour that is outside of normative behaviour is.

And I know what you will say... "there is normative behaviour that produces negative consequences" such as clubbing without ear plugs. Yes, yes, I agree. However, turning your computer speakers towards the wall because you are afraid of loud blips coming from youtube videos...is extreme.

 

[Bill Bauer]

Because, both examples fall within what we consider as normative behaviour. Follow normative schemas, does not count as fear.

I don't care whether or not a certain behaviour is popular. I use my own judgement and preferences to determine what behaviour should be normal for me.

 

[Tinker Bell]

And I know what you will say... "there is normative behaviour that produces negative consequences" such as clubbing without ear plugs. Yes, yes, I agree. However, turning your computer speakers towards the wall because you are afraid of loud blips coming from youtube videos...is extreme.

Or not eating in restaurants because you do not trust other people to make food you eat . . . Though I am curious what Bill does when he travels.

This is the problem with paranoia and anxiety, we often do not realize how much it controls our actions. It becomes our norm, often through a slow slide.

 

[Bill Bauer]

Or not eating in restaurants because you do not trust other people to make food you eat . . .

It is One of the reasons why I haven't been patronizing restaurants. It is not like I Yearn to eat there, but deny this to myself because I think about the probable lack of hygiene. I don't like it when other people take advantage of me (and that happens at restaurants - compare the meal price to the cost of the ingredients). The value (in dollars) that I assign to the kind of a meal that I would get at a restaurant is much lower than the prices that they charge for their meals.

Another relevant consideration is the value that I assign to the alternative = the food that I consume at home. That value is high - I am happy with what I get to eat.

Finally, I have always struggled with my weight. The tastier the food, the harder it is to stop eating. I learned that the secret to weight loss is to stop trying to eat food that tastes good. Several years ago I was able to get my BMI to 22.5. If I could find foods that I don't enjoy eating, it would make it a lot easier to keep my BMI at that healthy level, but unfortunately for me, I enjoy all food. Assuming the food at restaurants tastes better than what I enjoy eating now (I am not sure about the validity of that assumption), it is the Opposite of what I am looking for in food these days.

Your childhood doesn't end when you learn that Santa Claus is not real. It ends when you find out that ice cream is unhealthy (and that music can cause tinnitus)...

 

[Sven]

Hello, Sven

I remember that you had a serious spike (caused by attending a party) earlier this year. How are you feeling now?

Hi. Thanks for asking. The spike hasn't gone away, but I'm handling it OK and I'm not thinking about it as much anymore. When it's all quiet and when I'm trying to sleep I notice that it's louder than before February.

 

[Bill Bauer]

The spike hasn't gone away, but I'm handling it OK and I'm not thinking about it as much anymore. When it's all quiet and when I'm trying to sleep I notice that it's louder than before February.

I am very sorry to hear that. I honestly thought that it wasn't easy to get a permanent increase in volume, but it looks like I was wrong...

 

[Michael Leigh]

I am very sorry to hear that. I honestly thought that it wasn't easy to get a permanent increase in volume, but it looks like I was wrong...

It is for this reason @Bill Bauer I wrote the post below

Are spikes from loud noise permanent?

Someone recently asked me, whether a spike in tinnitus caused by loud noise would be permanent? I don't think there is a definitive answer, because tinnitus is a complex condition and if hyperacusis is also present it can complicate matters further. Some people habituate to tinnitus but their hyperacusis hasn't fully cured and this can cause tinnitus to spike.

When a person first develops tinnitus and it was caused by loud noise they have to be careful in future. Tinnitus can and does spike for many people and this is not necessarily caused by loud noise or sounds. After a while it usually returns to baseline or into its normal rhythm. Danger can present itself after a person habituates and the tinnitus has reduced to mild or moderate levels for most of the time. If one isn't careful, it can be easy to forget and slip back into the old lifestyle of: listening to music through headphones. Attending clubs, concerts and the cinema where sound levels can be quite high.

I believe a person with tinnitus should attend clubs, concerts and the cinema if they want to, providing they use noise-reducing earplugs to protect themselves. However, one should remember that nothing is one hundred percent safe. My advice is to stay clear of large standing floor speakers and if you're at a concert don't go to near the front stage where the music is likely to be booming out at high sound levels.

In many instances people will get a warning when visiting these places. If the decibel levels are too high their tinnitus might spike. Usually the tinnitus will return to baseline. However, some people do not pay attention to these warnings and continue to subject their ears to loud sounds and think they are perfectly safe because they are wearing earplugs. Under these circumstances the tinnitus might spike again and this time it might become permanent. I am saying might because nothing is for certain. In my opinion a person with tinnitus needs to follow the warnings their auditory system and tinnitus is telling them.

Regarding headphones. Many people have contacted me after they have habituated to tinnitus and returned to using headphones and listened to music through them at low volume. All of them have noticed an increase in their tinnitus. Some of them noticed their tinnitus spiked but carried on listening to music through headphones and then the tinnitus increased to a higher and more permanent level. It must be said that some people with tinnitus use headphones and have no adverse effects and that is perfectly fine. My opinion on this is, anyone that has tinnitus shouldn't listen to any type of audio through headphones even at low level.

It saddens to say, if a person doesn't heed the warning signs their auditory system and tinnitus is telling them, then they will eventually feel because tinnitus is very unforgiving. It is fine when some people are telling others what they want to hear: "listen to music through headphones because life is for living". "Go to the club as often as possible you're safe with earplugs. If your tinnitus increases you will be the one that will be in the suffering.

I have read many posts in tinnitus talk, where people had habituated and the tinnitus is low. They returned to listening to music through headphones and clubbing during the week and weekends. Some are now regretting this because their tinnitus has increased and they are in distress. Just because a person habituates doesn't mean they can forget everything and carry on in some instances recklessly. You can of course do this but my advice is to do things in moderation and not to excess, because the end result is often returning to ENT for help and visiting tinnitus forums because you are unable to cope.

Michael

 

[kelpiemsp]

But so much of what you said is clearly not backed by science. There is nothing, nothing, that says headphone use at low volumes causes tinnitus. You cannot in one instance say tinnitus is so complex we just don't know, and yet in the following paragraph say that headphones can cause a spike. Just because a person started using headphones again, and experienced a spike does not in any way, shape or form, mean that the headphones have caused it. We can't even accurately measure the loudness of a spike, let alone the perception, or measure its intrusiveness. Some of us are old hats when it comes to Tinnitus (I believe you have had it for a number of years yourself). As I enter my 31st year with T, I can't help but think that I would have been cheated out of so much of my life had I followed this advice.

Headphones saved me. They saved my career, they saved my marriage, they saved my life. Listening to masking music through headphones has allowed me to continue doing my work, reduce my stress, give my brain a break, and did I say relax?

Of course, this is all just my opinion.

 

[Michael Leigh]

But so much of what you said is clearly not backed by science. There is nothing, nothing, that says headphone use at low volumes causes tinnitus.

My dear friend @kelpiemsp

I have addressed you in this way not to be condescending. You are new to tinnitus. In time you will learn that science has nothing to do with living and understanding tinnitus. If you want to know about this condition, then visit forums like this one and correspond with people that are: New to it, seasoned to it and veterans to it. This is the only way that you will learn how to cope and manage with tinnitus, in addition to your own personal experience.

Michael