Lenire — Bimodal Stimulation Treatment by Neuromod

[Krolo]

My tinnitus has still been elevated, but this could also be due to my clogged ear wax buildup that occurred quite suddenly three days ago. I got it out today, but my ears still feel irritated from the whole ordeal.

I want to say it calmed down a little from stopping the use of Lenire, but the very high pitch tone it caused is still present as I write this.

Hey Pinks. Sorry to hear that you are struggling with the unit. Do try to maybe lower the stimulus intensity or the sound depending on what feels better. Try using it once per day or doing both sessions one after another. I have been through the same things with the unit and do also have some high pitch tinnitus but it´s so much better than what I had before.

 

[Phat Tuna]

People who have hyperacusis respond best to Lenire.

Has there been any explanation for this to date? This always made no sense to me.

Or even a theory?

 

[AfroSnowman]

Has there been any explanation for this to date? This always made no sense to me.

Or even a theory?

I don't know that I heard/read a specific explanation, but the CEO Dr. Ross O'Neill does talk about the need to stimulate the acoustic nerves. Perhaps those with hyperacusis are receiving greater stimulation.

 

[valeri]

This Lenire thing is becoming more and more complicated, more and more hit and miss... it's just too expensive for all that!

Worsening in some cases being most concerning, very risky!

I'm afraid this is not the Holy Grail we all hoped for...

 

[PeterPan]

People who have hyperacusis respond best to Lenire.

Yes, we hope to get evidence of this (or otherwise) in the Lenire User Experience Survey...

 

[PeteJ]

It´s sad to hear about your loud tinnitus. Mine is similar, as you know, I am losing my "moderate" days, so I am really desperate for real relief. Everything changed in the last 2 weeks. I was nearly well some days.

Now I read this thread 50 times per day, hoping to read a post like "I can´t believe it, I can´t hear my tinnitus anymore when I am outside".

For anecdotes and personal experiences to be significant, context is needed. What size of sample and how did they describe their tinnitus? Was it perceived as extremely loud and severe? Etc. Lots of severe sufferers would have to be reporting major reductions and improvements for it to be significant.

I read here that mild and moderate tinnitus sufferers are trying Lenire so whether they are used to it or not, they are probably coping better and treatments might be more helpful - depending on how it works, the treatment might be more effective if tinnitus intrusiveness and volume is "lower" or perceived as mild or moderate. Mild tinnitus is usually a nuisance for most but people with it welcome further improvement.

However, I think success or effectiveness should be measured based on whether it helps severe or loud tinnitus and the more numbers it helps, then the more universal a treatment it can be considered as.

If it's not doing this, then I don't think it can be considered as progress.

 

[BBakkers]

@valeri

I agree with you. When I read the latest reviews, it doesn't make me positive at all. Not sure anymore if I will do the treatment.

 

[El BUZZ]

This Lenire thing is becoming more and more complicated, more and more hit and miss... it's just too expensive for all that!

Worsening in some cases being most concerning, very risky!

I'm afraid this is not the Holy Grail we all hoped for...

Then get a seat and relax because that 100% success "magic pill" you all are waiting for is going to take a looong time to show up. Not even a painkiller guarantees total relief from a headache these days.

You sure something as complex and f#%ked up as tinnitus is going to be fully solved anytime soon? You better accept this is the first "hit or miss" option of the many to come because that's what therapies are all about with more or less percentage of success.

And please, don't even come with the old "whoever finds the cure is going to get rich" speech. Big pharma already is RICH as f#%k selling chemo, painkillers and ibuprofen, not to mention all those drugs changing name every year despite being the same s#%t. Why bother spending big cash in research for a cure for something as complicated as tinnitus when they can keep topping Forbes lists and buying bigger yachts just on selling Xanax?

We are in the hands of university researchers or small labs findings and trust me both those are in the Paleolithic regarding tinnitus tricks.

So you better invest your money or learn to live with the doubt if you could be in the "saved by Lenire" club.

 

[Sironketchup]

@Krolo thanks for your review!

You say Lenire has helped you immensely, but somehow you still have loud tinnitus.
Your report is, as all the agnostics say, very wishy-washy.
Has is helped to lower you tinnitus? Is is less intrusive? Are you less aware of it?

I do now, as of writing this, have one very very high pitch but yet thin sound in my left ear and a smaller version of it in my right ear.

Is that all what is left?
Do you think Lenire will give you even more improvement in the next few weeks? Is silence possible?

Sorry for being so insistent but all that counts is hard facts.

Thank you so much!

 

[pinklights98]

Hello! Is the very high pitch tone caused by Lenire or your ear wax?

The very high pitch tone was caused by Lenire.

 

[Krolo]

For anecdotes and personal experiences to be significant, context is needed. What size of sample and how did they describe their tinnitus? Was it perceived as extremely loud and severe? Etc. Lots of severe sufferers would have to be reporting major reductions and improvements for it to be significant.

I read here that mild and moderate tinnitus sufferers are trying Lenire so whether they are used to it or not, they are probably coping better and treatments might be more helpful - depending on how it works, the treatment might be more effective if tinnitus intrusiveness and volume is "lower" or perceived as mild or moderate. Mild tinnitus is usually a nuisance for most but people with it welcome further improvement.

However, I think success or effectiveness should be measured based on whether it helps severe or loud tinnitus and the more numbers it helps, then the more universal a treatment it can be considered as.

If it's not doing this, then I don't think it can be considered as progress.

I think there are in general more components to this and it's not as easy. I would say my tinnitus was at its worst stage 10 on a scale of 1 to 10. I had a 5 month stint with 30+ tinnitus sounds where most of those were at a perceived level of about a loud concert. 24/7. My emotional reaction caused a bit of this amplification. I did take antidepressants for this and after going through a month long reintroduction to sounds my hyperacusis faded a bit and so did my tinnitus. At the start of my Lenire experience I would rate my tinnitus to have been at 7 out of 10 and I also I had multiple tinnitus sounds that I heard over any external sounds I could tolerate (which was 60dB).

When I wrote my report today I would rate my tinnitus 4 out of 10.

So yes. So far it hasn't cured my tinnitus and it is probably not a fix for all people. But I still do consider it worth it. Is there a risk involved, possibly. But read my forum posts from last year and then read my latest post in the Lenire User Experiences & Reviews thread.

 

[Heinrich_S7]

@valeri

I agree with you. When I read the latest reviews, it doesn't make me positive at all. Not sure anymore if I will do the treatment.

I'm waiting on the Dr. Susan Shore or Minnesota device.

Like some previous posters have mentioned, Lenire seems to be the weakest iteration of bimodal stimulation. Likely because it's the first one to be released.

Minnesota is likely going to be a couple years, but hopefully Dr. Susan Shore releases hers this year.

 

[GlennS]

And please, don't even come with the old "whoever finds the cure is going to get rich" speech.

If your cynicism about the medical industrial complex were true and universal than a company like Frequency Therapeutics would never have been "allowed" by "them" to become a public company given that curing deafness would be seen as too threatening to an industry that has more to gain by merely treating rather than curing the sick.

 

[GlennS]

So yes. So far it hasn't cured my tinnitus and it is probably not a fix for all people. But I still do consider it worth it. Is there a risk involved, possibly. But read my forum posts from last year and then read my latest post in the Lenire User Experiences & Reviews thread.

What does the sensation of the pulse through the brain actually feel like? Do you only feel it on the tongue or can you actually sense it deep in your head? Does it help your mood at all ala deep-brain-stimulation?

The very high pitch tone was caused by Lenire.

How much faith do you have in Neuromod's reassurances that any possible disimprovement will only be temporary?

 

[Krolo]

@Krolo thanks for your review!

You say Lenire has helped you immensely, but somehow you still have loud tinnitus.
Your report is, as all the agnostics say, very wishy-washy.
Has is helped to lower you tinnitus? Is is less intrusive? Are you less aware of it?

Is that all what is left?
Do you think Lenire will give you even more improvement in the next few weeks? Is silence possible?

Sorry for being so insistent but all that counts is hard facts.

Thank you so much!

I do still have loud tinnitus when I wake up. It is not as loud as before but still loud when I wake up compared to the high pitched tone that it becomes as soon as I start doing things during the day. And yes it is less intrusive.

I see my progress as a stock on the stock market. It goes up and down but as I wrote, the trend is positive.

In regards to your question about improvement.

I found that the easiest way to cope with the treatment is to try and be emotionally detached to the whole situation.
Would it be nice to see even more improvement? Yes it would.
Do I go around thinking this? I try not to.

In regards to your question about if I think silence is possible.

I think that this is part of the problem; the expectations put on Lenire by Tinnitus Talk members.
It has never been sold as a cure and I never expected that it would give me silence.
My reasons for trying Lenire was that it was a possibility to get an improvement.
I was also totally set on the possibility of having no improvement and in the worst case scenario even a worsening.

Hope I don´t sound too negative in regards to your questions. Not my intention

 

[Krolo]

What does the sensation of the pulse through the brain actually feel like? Do you only feel it on the tongue or can you actually sense it deep in your head? Does it help your mood at all ala deep-brain-stimulation?

There is no sensation in the brain, but when I ramped up the stimulation to max it felt like my cricket tinnitus got aggravated. I do find it logical that the strength of the stimulus has to have some kind of important effect that I feel Neuromod might be disregarding.
When I dabbled with different tDCS stimulation regimens, there was quite a bit difference in having a lower setting and higher one.

 

[pinklights98]

How much faith do you have in Neuromod's reassurances that any possible disimprovement will only be temporary?

I ended up using Lenire last night and the high pitch tone went crazy, even in my left ear which is typically my good ear and normally doesn't bother me too much.

It finally calmed down a bit in the morning, but it stayed extremely elevated for the entire night.

It's very hard for me to use Lenire, to say the least. I don't expect the disimprovement to be permanent, however.

 

[Jazzer]

Then get a seat and relax because that 100% success "magic pill" you all are waiting for is going to take a looong time to show up. Not even a painkiller guarantees total relief from a headache these days.

You sure something as complex and f#%ked up as tinnitus is going to be fully solved anytime soon? You better accept this is the first "hit or miss" option of the many to come because that's what therapies are all about with more or less percentage of success.

And please, don't even come with the old "whoever finds the cure is going to get rich" speech. Big pharma already is RICH as f#%k selling chemo, painkillers and ibuprofen, not to mention all those drugs changing name every year despite being the same s#%t. Why bother spending big cash in research for a cure for something as complicated as tinnitus when they can keep topping Forbes lists and buying bigger yachts just on selling Xanax?

We are in the hands of university researchers or small labs findings and trust me both those are in the Paleolithic regarding tinnitus tricks.

So you better invest your money or learn to live with the doubt if you could be in the "saved by Lenire" club.

"Snake Oil?"

'When 'Noise' was the culprit,
why would you expect additional 'Noise' to be the remedy?

My credentials are exemplary.
I have a degree in 'uncommon sense!'

 

[Bartoli]

'When 'Noise' was the culprit,
why would you expect additional 'Noise' to be the remedy?

Do you know "hair of the dog"?

 

[Jazzer]

Do you know "hair of the dog"?

Yes I do.
I'm not a drinker - and that's most unusual for a jazz musician - but I don't believe a 'morning after drink' would cure a hangover either.

 

[valeri]

Then get a seat and relax because that 100% success "magic pill" you all are waiting for is going to take a looong time to show up. Not even a painkiller guarantees total relief from a headache these days.

You sure something as complex and f#%ked up as tinnitus is going to be fully solved anytime soon? You better accept this is the first "hit or miss" option of the many to come because that's what therapies are all about with more or less percentage of success.

And please, don't even come with the old "whoever finds the cure is going to get rich" speech. Big pharma already is RICH as f#%k selling chemo, painkillers and ibuprofen, not to mention all those drugs changing name every year despite being the same s#%t. Why bother spending big cash in research for a cure for something as complicated as tinnitus when they can keep topping Forbes lists and buying bigger yachts just on selling Xanax?

We are in the hands of university researchers or small labs findings and trust me both those are in the Paleolithic regarding tinnitus tricks.

So you better invest your money or learn to live with the doubt if you could be in the "saved by Lenire" club.

I don't think anyone here was/is that naive to think Lenire was 100% success magic pill.

Treatment... Yes! After all the glowing reviews from Neuromod, hundreds of test subjects, new "improved" device, top dogs in tinnitus research being involved... Can you blame people for being hopeful?

Overall: too much thunder and no rain!

 

[valeri]

"Snake Oil?"

'When 'Noise' was the culprit,
why would you expect additional 'Noise' to be the remedy?

My credentials are exemplary.
I have a degree in 'uncommon sense!'

I always wondered the same! It's logical!

I warned Allan of Lenire sound possibly causing tinnitus aggravation.
This I know from personal experience with reactive tinnitus.

But with all the hype about brain plasticity and neuromodulation... it leaves one feeling stupid!
So I tell my logic to shut up because I'm not smart enough for all that! I just know what I live with but that doesn't make me a brain expert!

 

[El BUZZ]

I'm drunk and I love you all!

 

[Bartoli]

Yes I do.
I'm not a drinker - and that's most unusual for a jazz musician - but I don't believe a 'morning after drink' would cure a hangover either.

I know for a fact it doesn't help hangovers but maybe it could apply to tinnitus?

Just because we got "bitten" by too much noise doesn't mean auditory stimulation coupled with electrical impulses won't prove an effective treatment at some point.

We can't discard anything as too crazy or far fetched until proven it doesn't work. An open mindset works best. Doesn't mean we don't have to live with it to the best of our abilities in the meantime, although I sometimes feel hoping for a cure and habituation don't play well together.

Cheers.

 

[Jazzer]

with all the hype about brain plasticity and neuromodulation

'Hype' is about right.
I never fell for that one either.

I'm drunk and I love you all!

'Love you too bro - platonically of course.
I don't want a kiss or anything.
(I get nervous!')

I know for a fact it doesn't help hangovers but maybe it could apply to tinnitus?

Just because we got "bitten" by too much noise doesn't mean auditory stimulation coupled with electrical impulses won't prove an effective treatment at some point.

We can't discard anything as too crazy or far fetched until proven it doesn't work. An open mindset works best. Doesn't mean we don't have to live with it to the best of our abilities in the meantime, although I sometimes feel hoping for a cure and habituation don't play well together.

Cheers.

Add more noise - no bloody fear - not me!
Just remember - no activity can ever be undone!

 

[F-u-T]

We do actually know this. It's definitely in the leaked slides and possibly even in some of their papers.

From memory I believe that they found synchronised timings to be more effective, with delays being slightly more effective initially though ultimately not leading to long term effects.

I found the timing info for TENT-A1 in the leaked slides. The diagram shows the three settings used for Arms 1,2,3.

Arm 1 was synchronized shock and sound stimulation. Going by Dr. Shore's research it's hard to say if this setting would have a positive or negative impact on tinnitus.

Arm 2 looks to be shock before sound. (If I am reading the figure correctly.) According to Dr. Shore's research that would make tinnitus worse.

Arm 3 looks to be shock before sound with a very large delay. The delays found beneficial by Dr. Shore were only 5-10 ms so this setting doesn't make sense either.

None of the settings from the TENT-A1 trial look similar to Dr. Shore's results for improvement. Doesn't mean they are wrong but also doesn't mean they are right either.

I believe Dr. Shore's research has applied for and been granted patents. I wonder if Neuromod is unable to use similar timings to Dr. Shore's because of those patents.

 

[Bartoli]

Add more noise - no bloody fear - not me!
Just remember - no activity can ever be undone!

I don't think that it can do harm at the decibel levels they program the device to. When using sound enrichment we also use sound to our benefit. Isn't this somewhat the same?

Plasticity is a thing, whether you believe in it or not.
It stands to reason that if maladaptive neuroplasticity is the cause of our tinnitus then neuroplasticity might be the answer. Maybe ultimately not in the form of bimodal stimulation, but if we manage to grow ourselves some new hair cells via FX-322 and this resolves the tinnitus, it would also be thanks to neuroplasticity.

 

[UKBloke]

I believe Dr. Shore's research has applied for and been granted patents. I wonder if Neuromod is unable to use similar timings to Dr. Shore's because of those patents.

I've been wondering that for a while too.

If I'm not mistaken patents can apply to things like compression and encoding algorithms in software applications. If that's the case then surely a patent can be applied for something like timing data in a bimodal stimulation device?

 

[Sironketchup]

I don't think it's possible to patent the timings.

Even if Dr. Shore had patented, let's say 5 ms timing, it should be possible to use a timing of 5,0001 ms.

I'm more interested in what Hubert Lim brought from his studies to Neuromod.
Are they using the same timings and technique as in the studies @kelpiemsp was in? Are they using the 15 ms timing?
Or are they using totally different timings?
And do they target the dorsal cochlear nucleus and / or the inferior colliculus?

Many questions, maybe someone can ask at their appointment, I will try for sure.

Cheers!

 

[uae96]

I'm starting Lenire in the next few days.

I will be off here until I've completed the 12 weeks. Adios.