Lenire — Bimodal Stimulation Treatment by Neuromod

[AfroSnowman]

I just read @dfl's update and have been reading @Redknight and everyone else who have posted their experiences, good and bad. I just really want to express my gratitude that you have taken the time to share with us.

It really does make a difference to me as I wait my turn, both in helping me make an informed decision on whether to spend the time and money on this and more importantly to give me some hope that there really is a potentially effective treatment.

So thank you all.

 

[EDDTEKK]

(heck, we don't even know if Lenire's signal timing is as important as many of us on the forum believe)

I was also asking myself how much influence the sounds of Lenire treatment actually have. I still can't imagine that some white noise combined with piano sounds triggers any neuroplasticity or changes in the DCN. Somebody has any idea?

In Desyncra the sound stimulus and timing was crucial. In Lenire it sounds like it's not.

 

[Ruse]

I was also asking myself how much influence the sounds of Lenire treatment actually have. I still can't imagine that some white noise combined with piano sounds triggers any neuroplasticity or changes in the DCN. Somebody has any idea?

In Desyncra the sound stimulus and timing was crucial. In Lenire it sounds like it's not.

You are correct. The sounds themselves have very little influence, as Dr. O'Neill has stated it is about getting enough stimulation into the auditory system.

The timings of the electronic pulses in relation to the pseudo-random pure tones however is very important.

I'm not even sure the timings of Desyncra really were that important. I'm convinced this whole technology is just based around residual inhibition (in that playing frequencies where you have hearing loss & tinnitus will temporarily reduce symptoms) and you can get the same result just loading up a tone generator online.

 

[TheDanishGirl]

I'm sorry if I offended anyone. That wasn't my intention. I just wish people would put a disclaimer up if they have had tinnitus for less then 1-1½ years, that their improvement could be due to natural healing.

But I applaud anybody who has chosen to share their experience with this treatment. And I would hope that every one of you gets a reduction in tinnitus. I am happy for all of you who have success with this.

 

[Redknight]

Dear Tinnitus Talk forum members,

I am currently halfway through my treatment with the Lenire. I must say I had a very stressful and busy month with moving, travel, and work on a new television series, but my time with the Neuromod device has helped a lot. It's hard to quantify — sometimes I feel as if it's just given me that 20 percent boost that makes it seem possible to overcome it and find some joy in life.

I'm certainly working and functioning at a high rate.

Three days ago, I went grocery shopping and beforehand sat down in a restaurant to grab a burger and watch the ND football game. The place wasn't noisy, but I couldn't hear the tinnitus, for an hour, the first time since it started that June years ago.

Please forgive me for not checking in more. I want to give proper time. Bless you and @Markku and everyone.

@dfl

It's great that Lenire has helped you too, I know exactly how you feel about it giving you some of your concentration back and letting you get back on your feet.

You mentioned that you are half way through, did Neuromod adjust your device yet? It gave me a little worsening of my tinnitus for a day or two after they did it at 6 weeks, but back to normal now.

Did they change the music for you? A few others have had their music changed to tonal beeps, with no music.

Thanks.

A

 

[hans799]

Regarding the Bluetooth controversy:
I checked and Ross O'Neill has an Electronic and Electrical Engineering degree with first class honors, AND he was a Senior Software Engineer for two years.

I think he knows what Bluetooth is and knows what a codec is and knows the differences between wired and wireless signal transmission.

Also, he probably spotted that the project he spent over a decade of his life on is using a Bluetooth headset.

So I think we're going to be just fine.

 

[JohnAdams]

Regarding the Bluetooth controversy:
I checked and Ross O'Neill has an Electronic and Electrical Engineering degree with first class honors, AND he was a Senior Software Engineer for two years.

I think he knows what Bluetooth is and knows what a codec is and knows the differences between wired and wireless signal transmission.

Also, he probably spotted that the project he spent over a decade of his life on is using a Bluetooth headset.

So I think we're going to be just fine.

"Hey, how did they overcome the lag issue with Bluetooth radios?"
"Don't worry about it, they have PhD's."

 

[GlennS]

In Desyncra the sound stimulus and timing was crucial. In Lenire it sounds like it's not.

It is, though. The video interview talked about how timing mattered a lot (and was a key improvement vs. MuteButton). And Lim's audio talked about how mixing up the timing half-way through the treatment also mattered.

 

[GlennS]

"Hey, how did they overcome the lag issue with Bluetooth radios?"
"Don't worry about it, they have PhD's."

Something engineers have trouble taking to heart:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KISS_principle

 

[Ivkopivko]

I do understand why @GlennS and @JohnAdams are still fluffing around, not just with this Bluetooth timing/lag thing, but in overall.

It's partly Neuromod's fault caused by the lack of communication and with some of the questions not clearly answered, they left us boiling in our own uncertainty and speculations.

If I was Hubert or Ross, I would create an account here and address all these speculations for good. Invite those guys for a few shots of Irish whiskey altered by a few pints of Guinness to maybe discuss the matter of the treatment and Bluetooth... only if not.

 

[TibuJenkins]

Regarding the Bluetooth controversy:
I checked and Ross O'Neill has an Electronic and Electrical Engineering degree with first class honors, AND he was a Senior Software Engineer for two years.

I think he knows what Bluetooth is and knows what a codec is and knows the differences between wired and wireless signal transmission.

Also, he probably spotted that the project he spent over a decade of his life on is using a Bluetooth headset.

So I think we're going to be just fine.

Are you sure? I think it would be best to replace all of the engineers and PhDs of Neuromod with the collective commentators of this thread. That is clearly the only way we will be able to fix and refine the device so it truly works. I am emailing their corporate board as we speak.

 

[hans799]

View attachment 32060

Something engineers have trouble taking to heart:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KISS_principle

I am so glad that the internet's top doctors and engineers are here to help Neuromod out. Obviously, a few less-than-stellar subjective experiences (from users who haven't even finished the treatment yet) invalidate the 500-person clinical trial they did, or a suggestion that they used the wrong type of headphone invalidates the 8+ years of engineering work they did. The investors who just sank 8 million euros into the company on September 26 obviously didn't do any due diligence beforehand, either.

Neuromod finally unmasked as the band of incompetents and scammers they are! We can close the thread now.

 

[GlennS]

I am so glad that the internet's top doctors and engineers...

All we're saying is if they just put a damn wire between the headphones and Lenire then we would have one fewer variable to worry about. There's nothing unreasonable to suggest that and it doesn't warrant the sarcasm. It's not like they can make the tongue-tip wireless, so what's really the benefit? Reliability trumps convenience with a medical device.

I may not be a doctor but I code for a living and know first-hand what over-complexity does as far as trying to insure reliability and chasing down anomalies. You're dealing with a condition that is elusive as it is. Don't add a point of failure if you don't have to.

 

[JohnAdams]

Are you sure? I think it would be best to replace all of the engineers and PhDs of Neuromod with the collective commentators of this thread. That is clearly the only way we will be able to fix and refine the device so it truly works. I am emailing their corporate board as we speak.

"How did they overcome the lag issues with the Bluetooth radios?"
"I don't know and I don't care but the people that are simply asking these questions are wrong for doing so. How dare they question the Neuromod engineers."

 

[Gabriel]

I just read @dfl's update and have been reading @Redknight and everyone else who have posted their experiences, good and bad. I just really want to express my gratitude that you have taken the time to share with us.

It really does make a difference to me as I wait my turn, both in helping me make an informed decision on whether to spend the time and money on this and more importantly to give me some hope that there really is a potentially effective treatment.

So thank you all.

Even though I think Neuromod will never help me because of the nature of my tinnitus, I am also grateful for people taking the time to answer there, and also am so happy for those of you that are better. And guess what, your therapy is not finished yet!

Wish you the best and that you will continue to improve and why not kill those f@ck@ng sounds in your head

 

[Bartoli]

Even though I think Neuromod will never help me because of the nature of my tinnitus

Why do you think that Gabriel? What makes your tinnitus different?

 

[Markku]

If you let me interrupt for a brief moment in the midst of all this non-stop sleuthing and arm-chair critiquing, I'm happy to say that we have a second interview with Neuromod in the works.

We scoured this thread and consulted a few people - we now have numerous good questions to ask.

You can expect the interview to be published later this month, as part of our Tinnitus Talk Podcast. Which by the way is no simple feat to do properly. @Hazel calculated that we spend anywhere between 60 and 70 hours per each podcast episode. And as usual, there will be a transcription available.

 

[hans799]

All we're saying is if they just put a damn wire between the headphones and Lenire then we would have one fewer variable to worry about. There's nothing unreasonable to suggest that and it doesn't warrant the sarcasm.

It is perfectly sensible to suggest that a wire would have been simpler. I have been frustrated over the thread's negativity and wrote an unnecessarily harsh reply. I sincerely apologize, Glenn.

 

[Heinrich_S7]

I do understand why @GlennS and @JohnAdams are still fluffing around, not just with this Bluetooth timing/lag thing, but in overall.

It's partly Neuromod's fault caused by the lack of communication and with some of the questions not clearly answered, they left us boiling in our own uncertainty and speculations.

If I was Hubert or Ross, I would create an account here and address all these speculations for good. Invite those guys for a few shots of Irish whiskey altered by a few pints of Guinness to maybe discuss the matter of the treatment and Bluetooth... only if not.

This is what I've been trying to say for almost a year now. Neuromod really falls short when it comes to their lack of communication.

They need to have one person answering inquiries, and clearing up speculation and give us facts on the device. But they just don't seem interested. It's part of their business model that puts me off.

 

[Heinrich_S7]

If you let me interrupt for a brief moment in the midst of all this non-stop sleuthing and arm-chair critiquing, I'm happy to say that we have a second interview with Neuromod in the works.

We scoured this thread and consulted a few people - we now have numerous good questions to ask.

You can expect the interview to be published later this month, as part of our Tinnitus Talk Podcast. Which by the way is no simple feat to do properly. @Hazel calculated that we spend anywhere between 60 and 70 hours per each podcast episode. And as usual, there will be a transcription available.

That sounds great! You guys should ask them if Nootropics that promote faster neuroplastic changes in the brain would potentiate the effects of the device.

 

[JohnAdams]

It is perfectly sensible to suggest that a wire would have been simpler. I have been frustrated over the thread's negativity and wrote an unnecessarily harsh reply. I sincerely apologize, Glenn.

Simpler, more reliable, and not prone to timing issues other than the rate of electrical conduction which is near light speed and constant.

As a holder of a Master's Degree in Engineering Technology and a former adjunct instructor in college level electronics engineering with years of experience, I can say beyond a shadow of a doubt, that the use of Bluetooth over a wired headset, when it has been established that milliseconds count, and the tongue tip being wired is MAJORLY IDIOTIC and UNNECESSARY and ADDS COST.

Remember, the principal investigator for their TENT-A trial, Berthold Langguth, is also on their scientific advisory board. (conflict?)

AND

There was no actual placebo group. (not scientific)

 

[GlennS]

It is perfectly sensible to suggest that a wire would have been simpler. I have been frustrated over the thread's negativity and wrote an unnecessarily harsh reply. I sincerely apologize, Glenn.

Understood. I pushed the envelope on the Raiders meme and wouldn't go so far as to out and out name-call the way @JohnAdams just did, but (and this is a BIG but) if it turns out down the road that erratic Bluetooth timing winds up interfering with the treatment's efficacy, it will be a real foolish blunder on their part. It's just that audio devices in general are trending towards elimination of headphone jacks so from a marketing perspective it seems more "hip" and "modern" to go wireless. I think it's a case of marketing winning out over prudence. Hopefully it will be a non-issue.

 

[Krolo]

Simpler, more reliable, and not prone to timing issues other than the rate of electrical conduction which is near light speed and constant.

As a holder of a Master's Degree in Engineering Technology and a former adjunct instructor in college level electronics engineering with years of experience, I can say beyond a shadow of a doubt, that the use of Bluetooth over a wired headset, when it has been established that milliseconds count, and the tongue tip being wired is MAJORLY IDIOTIC and UNNECESSARY and ADDS COST.

Remember, the principal investigator for their TENT-A trial, Berthold Langguth, is also on their scientific advisory board. (conflict?)

AND

There was no actual placebo group. (not scientific)

Hey John,

I totally agree with you about the idiotic choice of Bluetooth over wired and I think that in the end it might have just been a selling point decision in the end. Hopefully it does not interfere enough with timing issues etc.

Regarding the placebo group I have an extremely small trust in placebo groups as a scientific measurement of success of a treatment. There is so much bashing about antidepressants for example that in their studies they barely work better than placebo.

But did they actually subgroup the findings? No they didn't, and since tinnitus is a brain issue, how would a placebo group work. Will you have subgroups of placebo patients? Since they literally have no clue how the brain works placebo itself is misguiding in this respect.

I would say that just looking at the user reports it is by far the best damn news since Trobalt. Is it a cure? Of course not. Should they have used wired headphones? Probably. And yet we have positive results that kind of correspond to their claims.

Will there be better solutions in the future? Of course. Question is if it is worth your dollar to try Lenire now or wait for something better.

For me, that is a super easy equation...

 

[Agrajag364]

Neuromod have just published a new paper (got a PubMed alert). It seems to be the protocol for the TENT-A2 trial. Got excited for a minute as thought it was TENT-A1 results. But it's still worth reading.

https://www.researchprotocols.org/2019/9/e13176/pdf - full text

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/31573942- - abstract

 

[Ruse]

Simpler, more reliable, and not prone to timing issues other than the rate of electrical conduction which is near light speed and constant.

As a holder of a Master's Degree in Engineering Technology and a former adjunct instructor in college level electronics engineering with years of experience, I can say beyond a shadow of a doubt, that the use of Bluetooth over a wired headset, when it has been established that milliseconds count, and the tongue tip being wired is MAJORLY IDIOTIC and UNNECESSARY and ADDS COST.

Remember, the principal investigator for their TENT-A trial, Berthold Langguth, is also on their scientific advisory board. (conflict?)

AND

There was no actual placebo group. (not scientific)

I think the Bluetooth headphones are a case of "hey look what we can do". I am not sure they add much value but apparently everyone wants wireless technology these days.

Important to note that there will always be latency (even when using wired headphones) if you consider that the sounds are generated digitally and not from analog components.

This may only be as little as a few ms though I think this is an important design consideration with or without Bluetooth headphones IF the timings have to be accurate to the nearest ms.

 

[JohnAdams]

I think the Bluetooth headphones are a case of "hey look what we can do". I am not sure they add much value but apparently everyone wants wireless technology these days.

Important to note that there will always be latency (even when using wired headphones) if you consider that the sounds are generated digitally and not from analog components.

This may only be as little as a few ms though I think this is an important design consideration with or without Bluetooth headphones IF the timings have to be accurate to the nearest ms.

I bet it was some goofy design team that didn't want two wires coming off of the device which constrained the engineering team. The thing about the lag from the digital sounds is that it can be compensated for because it will always be constant. The Bluetooth radios just add even more latency. Maybe they are using a codec that has a lag that is always the same. I don't know. If it had been me, I would have gone with wired.

 

[GregCA]

I think the Bluetooth headphones are a case of "hey look what we can do". I am not sure they add much value but apparently everyone wants wireless technology these days.

Important to note that there will always be latency (even when using wired headphones) if you consider that the sounds are generated digitally and not from analog components.

This may only be as little as a few ms though I think this is an important design consideration with or without Bluetooth headphones IF the timings have to be accurate to the nearest ms.

It's not the latency that is a problem: it's its variability. With a constant latency, you can delay the other signal by whatever amount you need to get the offset you want.

 

[Ruse]

It's not the latency that is a problem: it's its variability. With a constant latency, you can delay the other signal by whatever amount you need to get the offset you want.

I bet it was some goofy design team that didn't want two wires coming off of the device which constrained the engineering team. The thing about the lag from the digital sounds is that it can be compensated for because it will always be constant. The Bluetooth radios just add even more latency. Maybe they are using a codec that has a lag that is always the same. I don't know. If it had been me, I would have gone with wired.

Yes of course! I'm not suggesting the potential variability does not add an extra layer of complexity.

However one would hope that if they were smart enough to understand the digital latency from the "mp3 player" they would also be smart enough to at least be aware of the above Bluetooth considerations.

Edit: In the unlikely scenario they haven't factored this in, look on the positive side - what a great update that would be to improve the device significantly.

 

[Heinrich_S7]

Has anyone seen this? Apparently the FDA review of the TENT-A2 was estimated to be completed in September.

https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT03530306

Possible US launch soon?

 

[GregCA]

However one would hope that if they were smart enough to understand the digital latency from the "mp3 player" they would also be smart enough to at least be aware of the above Bluetooth considerations.

Yes I doubt they haven't looked into this indeed. I'm just curious about their solution to address Bluetooth latency.