Low-Level Laser Therapy (LLLT) for Tinnitus — Experiences (Dr. Wilden, etc.)

[FERNANDO GIL]

Hi Gil,

thanks for the update and cool that you experience good progress.
I also do LLLT (Konftec) but without any change.
What is your Konftec Devise, the LaserSpa from Dr. Wilden?
If so, what can be the difference?

Greets
Tom

Hi Tom
Had a talk about Knoftec laser with Anne.

She said, of corse quality is not top, they work good during 1 year to 1 year and half after that there quality diods is not good.
Now two points:
-She knows that many comes with defect, and what you should do is complain about it, and usually send you a new one.
- Some times, just starting with a home laser is just not enouph, you need a really strong kick start, and go from there.
( sorry in the past for putting Konftec in question as hard as I did, but working chinese people for 15 years put me in that position).

Hope you feel better.
Fernando

 

[Nick J.]

@FERNANDO GIL

I have been thinking about the time after regeneration of the hearing and the time after the T has got lowered or hopefully even gone.
Do u think its possible that the haircells, nerves and everything that is being restored by the LLLT, will not be as strong and robust as before our injury??
So maybe u could get a sudden 40-50db drop in hearing after just one night out with loud music and no earplugs??

Cuz what happened to Hansi in the end got me thinking about this.
He got VERY good results. But just from taking some medicin and being stressed, gave him a huge drop in hearing plus new T and set him back 6 month or something.

I know u are not surpose to be careless about noise like when we were young, when we at one time stop useing our lasers. But still its kind of scary to think about.
What about going to the cinemas?? Always crazy loud and u never use earplugs during a movie.
Or what about the crazy noise from traffic and trucks useing there horns... I mean... If the cells are gonna be weaker, then u could be fooled after having used 3 years on regenerating and then going back to normal life, though still with some protection when noise is really bad.
But after maybe 4-5 years, u could potentialy be back to where we are now by a slow, but yet faster decrease in hearing then the first time.

Have u been giving this any thought??

 

[Nick J.]

Thanks for the extra little bits of info. Hope things improve for you!

Oh man - don't remind me, haha. I was beyond devastated yesterday. He was looking so good before that knee to the head too, damn it!

My pleasure buddy! Thanks and likewise.

I was pretty sure Werdum would win by some kind of submission, since his so good at it.
But i was really hoping Mark would surprice me and after seeing first round, i actually changed my mind and felt pretty sure he could pull it off.
Damn shame!
On the bright side, he was not surpose to have this fight yet and in the fight, he was just unlucky imo.
So he can still get a chance againt Cain if he wins over Werdum next time.

 

[FERNANDO GIL]

@FERNANDO GIL

I have been thinking about the time after regeneration of the hearing and the time after the T has got lowered or hopefully even gone.
Do u think its possible that the haircells, nerves and everything that is being restored by the LLLT, will not be as strong and robust as before our injury??
So maybe u could get a sudden 40-50db drop in hearing after just one night out with loud music and no earplugs??

Cuz what happened to Hansi in the end got me thinking about this.
He got VERY good results. But just from taking some medicin and being stressed, gave him a huge drop in hearing plus new T and set him back 6 month or something.

I know u are not surpose to be careless about noise like when we were young, when we at one time stop useing our lasers. But still its kind of scary to think about.
What about going to the cinemas?? Always crazy loud and u never use earplugs during a movie.
Or what about the crazy noise from traffic and trucks useing there horns... I mean... If the cells are gonna be weaker, then u could be fooled after having used 3 years on regenerating and then going back to normal life, though still with some protection when noise is really bad.
But after maybe 4-5 years, u could potentialy be back to where we are now by a slow, but yet faster decrease in hearing then the first time.

Have u been giving this any thought??

O YES......
I wear ear plugs almost all day now, for sure will dificult to see me in another concert, or even going to a cinema.
I have a friend of mine that had T for a few months, not loud but some. Ear problems, after a medicine he took the T disapeard, i´m fine now. He went to help a friend on construction of his house. After a few but strong hammer beatting, he got T again. Now is reducing again.

Anne told me that many clients come back a few years after the treatment, but a few power sessions and most of them stop having T again. She told about a lady from nothern Norway, that fall from a horse ride and T come back, She advise her to buy a Konfetc laser, and after a wille she was good again.

in resume:

ONE LLLT A DAY KEEPS THE EN(T) AWAY..... Anne did not say it like that, but in the future if you do 5/10 minutes in the morning for sure you will have good chances of not having T again.
She mention a lot about life style of the presons she treats, she can not comite to a final resulte cause she can not control people life style. If you keep going to discos and concerts for sure T will get back.


But note that Hansi second drop was on the lower frequencies, and the first one mostly on the higher. That is why he recovered most of it only in 6 months. I presume.


Are yu felling better?
Sheers

 

[Nick J.]

O YES......
I wear ear plugs almost all day now, for sure will dificult to see me in another concert, or even going to a cinema.
I have a friend of mine that had T for a few months, not loud but some. Ear problems, after a medicine he took the T disapeard, i´m fine now. He went to help a friend on construction of his house. After a few but strong hammer beatting, he got T again. Now is reducing again.

Anne told me that many clients come back a few years after the treatment, but a few power sessions and most of them stop having T again. She told about a lady from nothern Norway, that fall from a horse ride and T come back, She advise her to buy a Konfetc laser, and after a wille she was good again.

in resume:

ONE LLLT A DAY KEEPS THE EN(T) AWAY..... Anne did not say it like that, but in the future if you do 5/10 minutes in the morning for sure you will have good chances of not having T again.
She mention a lot about life style of the presons she treats, she can not comite to a final resulte cause she can not control people life style. If you keep going to discos and concerts for sure T will get back.


But note that Hansi second drop was on the lower frequencies, and the first one mostly on the higher. That is why he recovered most of it only in 6 months. I presume.


Are yu felling better?
Sheers

Yaa im also wearing earplugs everyday i leave the house.
But i love going to cinemas and if u go clubbing with earplugs, u cant really talk with any one.

But i guees u are right!
A healthy lifestyle and some common sense when in loud places, is gonna take u a long way.
And i think u are right about doing a small dose of LLLT a few times a week maybe...just like u wouldent stop taking vitamins, just because u started feeling better. Vitamins are every day all life.

Its hard to tell if im getting better, since im still taking betaserc.
But a few days ago, i had my best moment so far. For several hours, it was like my T was totally gone.
Atleast this new T i have felt gone and the only noise i could hear, was this really old T i have, which feels like its more inside my head and not in my ears.
Its some kind of white noise, like the sound u had on old TV's when there were "Snow" on the screen (no picture)
So that was really awsome and i think this is a sign of what it might be like, if i keep treating myself.
The good days will increase.
Also iv had 3-4 days lately, where my T is so thin and high pitch, that its almost like it hurts my ears! Really strange feeling actually.
But i hope this might be a sign of the healing moving up in tones. (Fingers crossed)

I ordered some pills made on natural stuff, back when i was desperate and just got the bad T.
The were sent to my home in Denmark and should possibly lower the T like betaserc.
So when i get back home, ill stop a few days taking betaserc and start up on those pills and see if there is a change.


What about u after u got back home?
I think u need minimum a week, before u really can tell if there is a difference before and after Norway!

 

[FERNANDO GIL]

I notice mostly it went up on the frequency.
That is for sure.

It´s more thin, and "Ssshhhh" sound looks lower.

Anne told about 15 days to see final results. As I said Going to china on December, but considering a lot going back to Norway for more 3 days. And learn how to work with the new laser. need good info cause is way more powerful than the MLS from dr Wilden.

 

[Nick J.]

I notice mostly it went up on the frequency.
That is for sure.

It´s more thin, and "Ssshhhh" sound looks lower.

Anne told about 15 days to see final results. As I said Going to china on December, but considering a lot going back to Norway for more 3 days. And learn how to work with the new laser. need good info cause is way more powerful than the MLS from dr Wilden.

Okay, so thats pretty much what u could hope for i think.
I hope for u it minimum stays like this or maybe even gets better, which i think it normally does with those high dose treatments.
But if u have the time for it, i cant see no reason not to drop by Anna one more time on your way home.

So if Anna has the same laser u are gonna get in china, how did she get it??
Im sorry if u already explained this in the inbox mail, with David. But why couldent u just order it from a website??

 

[FERNANDO GIL]

HI
The thruth is that was Anne that contaxt her by mail and pass to me.
On the mails was never a website.Only now I google it.
and here it is.
Sorry.
http://www.lucky-laser.com/index.php

Sheers

Remember I´m buying only one probe of each wavelenght. So it´s cheaper

 

[Nick J.]

HI
The thruth is that was Anne that contaxt her by mail and pass to me.
On the mails was never a website.Only now I google it.
and here it is.
Sorry.
http://www.lucky-laser.com/index.php

Sheers

Remember I´m buying only one probe of each wavelenght. So it´s cheaper

ahh okay thanks!
Wow 900mW... Thats alot of power in just one probe.
But why dident u ask her about how to use it, while u were there?
I can see u wrote that u got treated by her with a 808nm/650mW for 50min. into the ear.
So if u did just 30min. u should be good right?

What was the price for a laser with one of each probes?

 

[FERNANDO GIL]

I wanna go there again for more power laser in other frequencies, 904, 830 and 820.

900 mW is a lot, I really want some professional advise and make a plan with her for tretament
with this one.

This one we made the two at the same time, 808 in the ear I think at 500 mW and 650 at 120 mW behind the ear.
During 50 minutos (two ears at the same time)

Price :1500 USD

 

[Nick J.]

I wanna go there again for more power laser in other frequencies, 904, 830 and 820.

900 mW is a lot, I really want some professional advise and make a plan with her for tretament
with this one.

This one we made the two at the same time, 808 in the ear I think at 500 mW and 650 at 120 mW behind the ear.
During 50 minutos (two ears at the same time)

Price :1500 USD
View attachment 3714

Yes u should definitly go for that, now that u will be getting your own laser soon.

U could also think about maybe buy a expensive laser like irradia with minimum 2 different wavelength and high power and if u could find 3 other people with same problem, then u could share the cost and then each person could use it for 1 week and get a constant high dose over a year and much cheaper then going 10-15 times to a clinic for 3-5 days of treatment each time!
And after 1-2 years, its still gonna be worth something, if u all deside to sell it.

 

[Nick J.]

Just found this danish site and the sell handheld lasers with 808 and 660nm, but with less power then the one u are getting.
But if u only want the 808, u could do it for 655$$

http://www.acupunctureshop.com/produkt.php?id=106006&gruppe=behandlerudstyr_laser


I also saw the sell earplugs with 780nm/80mW... But then u also have to buy a devise on top of that.
Some of (if not all) seems to be konftec.

***************†***************†*******************

I also found this chinese site and yes i know u dont like them
But check it out!
It look like a copy of the Luminex

http://medicalmachine.en.china.cn/s...r-Medical-LED-Diode-Laser-Systems-Device.html

Laser Handpieces

Wavelength:808nm 650nm 532nm 904nm 980nm

laser power: 500mW 200mW 30mW 500mW 200mW

 

[FERNANDO GIL]

Just to clarify a few points for a previous post from Nick

This one to Nick.
You asked if starting with higher doses he high frequencies would start to heel as well. Today I remember I had talk with Anne where she said that the ealing process is slow and that is the "good" cells that promote and help the regeneration of the nearby cells. Since naturaly our high frequencies cells are more damaged than the low frequencies, I presume that is the low frequencies that regenerat first, and then , "side by side" they start to help the high frequencies.

if you see, most of the audigrams from people doing LLLT is like some frequencies start to push the next one, or up to high frequencies or even the lower, see Sam audigrams.

But for sure high power treatments will help to regeneraste the low faster, and then of corse those ones will help the others. I think this makes sense and explain why high frequencies take longer.

Sheers

 

[Nick J.]

Just to clarify a few points for a previous post from Nick

This one to Nick.
You asked if starting with higher doses he high frequencies would start to heel as well. Today I remember I had talk with Anne where she said that the ealing process is slow and that is the "good" cells that promote and help the regeneration of the nearby cells. Since naturaly our high frequencies cells are more damaged than the low frequencies, I presume that is the low frequencies that regenerat first, and then , "side by side" they start to help the high frequencies.

if you see, most of the audigrams from people doing LLLT is like some frequencies start to push the next one, or up to high frequencies or even the lower, see Sam audigrams.

But for sure high power treatments will help to regeneraste the low faster, and then of corse those ones will help the others. I think this makes sense and explain why high frequencies take longer.

Sheers

I just got a audiogram done today the same place as where i got the first one done before going to ibiza and having LLLT for the first time.
I think u might be right in how u descibed the healing progsess Fernando. About the cells healing the ones next to them before moving on.
Cuz this is pretty much what this picture tells me.
All low tones are now up in "normal zone" at -10db and i have a +20db gain on the right ear at 2khz, but above this, nothing havent really happened yet and some parts are even down a bit.
But this ofcourse could be errors, since its +-5db.
Also the ENT was some what incompetent and explained me the same stupid things the all do.
Anyway, i also realized when i got home, he dident measure the same frequencies as the first one! Zzzz.

But im home in Denmark next week and have already made arrangement with two clinics, about getting audiograms.
But still only up to 8KHz.
Couldent find anyone on the net that went higher.
Will talk to my doctor when i get home.

 

[dboy]

Interesting results @Nick J., thanks for posting.

I was offered a second hand MLS laser which I purchased and started using a few days ago. I have requested a copy of my last audiogram from hospital (taken about 2 months ago) so will see whether I manage any improvement over the next few months. Thanks for all the useful info Nick J, Fernando, ATEOS, etc., especially useful to me as I do not have any access to the professional LLLT practitioners at this stage and no instructions with the device I purchased.

 

[Nick J.]

@dboy My pleasure!
Remember to post your own audiogram when u get it, since we are gonna be curious about your progress aswell.
But lucky u to just optain a device just like that.
So for how long do u use it each time and could u hear/feel any change on the second day??

Is your MLS with the earplugs or the pen?

 

[dboy]

Well @Nick J., so far I can honestly say I have experienced no noticeable effects whatsoever. But since my T and all associated increases are now chronic rather than acute I do not really expect anything to happen in the short term. So far I started doing 2 x 35mins a day, but upped it to 2 x 45 mins yesterday. Not sure if this is too much, but 30mW seems quite low power considering I have not had any high dose professional treatments to kickstart things. Feel free to advise me if you have an opinion.

Here's a picture of the unit I bought. Seems like the ones on Dr Wilden's website, but in an older style casing and branded 'Novatech' which I think is the company that manufactures for him. I may still try to rig up a diy unit myself, but after faffing about a bit I wanted to experience the approved unit so I had a comparison.



P.S. The unit was offered for sale earlier in this thread. I made contact but someone else was interested and I could not be bothered with a bidding war so I let it go. Then a few weeks later the other buyer had apparently changed her mind so it was offered to me. Seems to function OK, and has recent servicing documentation.

 

[Nick J.]

@dboy yes its the same i have. Just a newer one i guees. Mine is like the one from his website.
I can see u dont have any soft rubber on the earplugs?
U can buy those used on normal earplugs/headsets for mobile/ipods and make it a little more confortable.

About the way u used it, is about the way i did it myself the first month.
I obv. cant say if that is better then only 35min. a day for 5 days a week and then two days break.
But it also seamed way to little in my eyes.
Although i might drop down and go easy for one month and see how that turns out.
Cuz im not 100% sure... But in some way it feels like my T has got worse since ibiza and the audiogram also showed this, even if it could still just be errors in the higher tones.
But i still have to remind myself that i have only used the MLS for about a month now and cant expect much already.

Try do one session 35min. A day behind the ear where u can feel the skull ends...just behind the fluffy part of the ear tip. To do this, u have to lay on the side and do one ear at a time and make sure the laser touch the skull.
I normally get instant respond with "ziings and biibs" when i do this... Like within one minute.

When u do it normally inside the ear, its best to lay on the back and when the rubber earplugs gets warm, u can more easily adjust the plugs so the point backwards and a bit down to hit the cochlear.
But u have so lay still. If u move just a bit, the will slide right back and point forward...atleast on me.

 

[FERNANDO GIL]

Hi @dboy
If you have a chance go to Anne Arilla in Norway.
She told me that some times starting with " small doses" is not enouph to start the ealing process.consider.

Yesterday was the first time I did behind the ear( with my MLS) and gmy T went up right away, today I fell better, and the zingres did show up as well.

On my tretament with Anne I used the 650 behind the ear at the same as the 808 inside during 50 minutos in each ear. So do not fell afraid of using the 650 for 35 minuts or more time even. I have the 650 from Dr Wilden but at 80 Mw and since the beginning I used for 40/45 minutos everyday. Not even stoping on the weekends.

But once again, if you have the monetary chance and time please consider going to Anne, she told me that she treated people with even 70 years old and chronic T.

all the best

 

[FERNANDO GIL]

Hi All
Just to let you know that since one month ago I start to participante in a Portuguese forum.
Tomorow I will have a lady with 65 year old in my house to try my MLS laser.
I will post as well her audigrams, and I will try as much as possible to follow her trenament.
She does not speak English, so all progress will be reported by me. Mostly to put her audigrams here in the fórum.
She have free airfare tickets, so she invited me to go with her to Norway in January, since she can not speak at all any English. Hope to put as much info as pssible,specialy about people with older ages. And see how they react to LLLT.


Sheers.

 

[dboy]

@Nick J. & @FERNANDO GIL thanks for all that great help and advice.

I will have a try at doing behind my ear with the MLS. Getting an instant effect on the T as you both describe (zings etc.) is interesting. I remember when my nastiest increase was still acute and I did some HBO I was hearing all sorts of snap, crackle & pops at night.

I figured out lying on my back works best for inside the ear - helps the earpieces stay in place. I think I have different shaped ear canals though. I usually find the earpiece stays in much better in my left ear than in my right. And yes, it does tend to want to point forward rather than back. Just gotta fiddle around and find a way I guess.

Unfortunately at this point I do not think I will go to Norway for a kickstarter dose. Maybe if I get some results with home treatment and want to speed things up, but at the moment I have read enough reports of folks not benefitting to not want to put all my funds into this, as money is a little tight to say the least. Of course I realise that might be a 'Catch 22' situation - no big dose so no benefit; no benefit so no big dose. Maybe later is my feeling, though. Hope you guys understand.

 

[dboy]

Cuz im not 100% sure... But in some way it feels like my T has got worse since ibiza and the audiogram also showed this, even if it could still just be errors in the higher tones.

I saw ENT & audiologist 8 days after noise exposure that caused my worst increase and again about 6 months later. They were concerned because they thought my hearing had deteriorated over that time. I wonder whether the mild hyperacusis I had immediately after the damage was somehow making my ears more sensitive and then that subsequently faded? Maybe there is some other mechanism at work, but what you said about this rang a bell with me.

 

[Nick J.]

I saw ENT & audiologist 8 days after noise exposure that caused my worst increase and again about 6 months later. They were concerned because they thought my hearing had deteriorated over that time. I wonder whether the mild hyperacusis I had immediately after the damage was somehow making my ears more sensitive and then that subsequently faded? Maybe there is some other mechanism at work, but what you said about this rang a bell with me.

I read in a scientific study, that haircells in some cases could continue dieing of after exposure, since some of them will be drained of energy and on the tippingpoint of dieing i guees and if u just keep living normal with the same loud noises during the day, the cant overcome the damage and will collaps soon thereafter and make a much bigger drop in hearing/T.

This im sure happened to me!
After the conzert that caused my really bad T, i had "normal" hearing 10 days after.
Only 10 days after, the T appeared out of nowhere and took me by surprice.
So that kind of confirm what this study showed.
U need some treatment RIGTH after the damage, to stop further death of cells.
Problem is, i dident know there was a damage until it was to late 10 days after when the T came!

After my treatment in ibiza, i had hyperacusis also.
But that has now gone...maybe it moved up in the tones. Not sure.
But i know there were tones that would give me pain in the ears.
LLLT is surpose to cure this though.

 

[Nick J.]

Unfortunately at this point I do not think I will go to Norway for a kickstarter dose. Maybe if I get some results with home treatment and want to speed things up, but at the moment I have read enough reports of folks not benefitting to not want to put all my funds into this, as money is a little tight to say the least. Of course I realise that might be a 'Catch 22' situation - no big dose so no benefit; no benefit so no big dose. Maybe later is my feeling, though. Hope you guys understand.

U are right about the Catch 22!!
Only way u can get around this in my oppinion, is to really put an effort into this and promiss yourself to keep up the treatment for minimum 4-5 month and then go get a audiogram!
Cuz then u will most likely see results in your hearing in the low tones like me, but most likely not in the high and thereby no reduced T still.
But then u will get the proof u need to go get the high dose and fast reduction in your T and then your ears will also be more ready for the high dose.
Thats how i look a it atleast. Im pretty sure u will get some kind of positive result, if u can just hang in there.

 

[dboy]

@Nick J. That is pretty much my plan. I am hopeful, but I know there is a chance I might be one of the people who do not benefit. I aim to be persistant and not expect miracles. The advantage of home treatment is you can just keep going with it and it does not cost any more.

 

[Nick J.]

but I know there is a chance I might be one of the people who do not benefit

I think that is all BS!
I have heard this elsewhere and i dont believe it to be true.
To me, those not benefitting, are people that are quitting to soon, or dont wear earplugs in noisy areas, so the healing of the laser is beeing neutralized or use devises that dont work (cheap ones or dead diodes) ect.
There are many factores in this game!
We all have the same kind of cells in the body and the all react to light!
Its not as simple as of "some benefit, some dont"
There are serveral things in the ear that are being stimulated when treated with lasers, not just hearingcells.
So u are doomed to benefit in one way or the other nomatter what some people think. Yes the T might not go away... But 50% better hearing is still improvement i think??
Its a matter of, are u the "cup half full or half empty" kind of guy i guees.
But obviously the holy grail is making the T go away and FAR away!


But again, this is just my conclusion from all the reading iv been doing so far.

 

[dboy]

Well @Nick J., I don't wanna argue with you about that 'cos I hope you are right. I'm just careful about getting my hopes up too soon.

 

[Nick J.]

Well @Nick J., I don't wanna argue with you about that 'cos I hope you are right. I'm just careful about getting my hopes up too soon.

I hear ya buddy
Gonna be exiting following u and your progress in here.
I believe its a bit easier to keep up, when others are doing the same and can post positive results once in a while.

 

[Nick J.]

@dboy how goes??
U feel any swing in the T after trying behind the ears??

 

[dboy]

@dboy how goes??
U feel any swing in the T after trying behind the ears??

Sorry for delay, must have missed the alert about this post. No, not noticed any difference yet. Not sure I've got the technique/positioning right for behind the ears. I tried it a couple of times, but needing to hold the lasers in position gets hard 'cos I got joint problems in my elbows at the moment. Didn't get the instant sound changes that you and Fernando reported.

So I've just been doing 2 lots of 45 mins a day in the ear. Sometimes 3 lots. I've started using a headband to adjust the position of the earpieces (pointing back and down), which is causing a bit of minor soreness, but bearable. Did you mention a while ago that you had a method for adjusting the angle of the earpieces?