Low-Level Laser Therapy (LLLT) for Tinnitus — Experiences (Dr. Wilden, etc.)

[FERNANDO GIL]

So that could possible be the same, if thats what u mean by flat.
I know Hansi also talked about this. I just wasent sure what it ment

Hi @Nick J.

Not exactly steady, just now had a spike , nice.....

Is hard to explain.
I had the same question when I read Hansi blog, but the truth is that word FLAT makes sense to me now, when you get to the high frequencies.

Sheers

 

[FERNANDO GIL]

Its in january before i go on vacation. So its perfect to see if there is any progress. But i dont have to much hope. I keep telling myself im still only i the beginning stage and cant expect much.
So it is what it is, nomatter what the test says.

Relember, you may get good news like I did.

 

[Nick J.]

Tonight i went visiting my father and noticed that i dont get the same extra loud T from driving in the car, like before Norway.
My T reacts to sound and gets higher in noice like when in a car.
So normally this makes me put in earplugs because i notice this every time.
But today i forgot about earplugs in my way over and dident even think about the T, because it dident get louder like normally i guees.
But on my way home i realysed what have happened and i then put in earplugs just for good measure.

Now before bedtime, i have a very fast pulsating T and also small spikes of other sounds comming and going.
So no doubt im getting the after effect now
The pulsating sound have only happened one time before and that was maybe a week or so after Wildens treatment.

 

[dboy]

I have been trying this for a few weeks using a MLS laser (Dr Wilden's in ear model) that I got second hand. I try to do 2 sessions of 45 mins a day with occasional breaks. I have not noticed any improvements yet so cannot particularly recommend this protocol as one that has worked for me - although maybe one day. I gather you have to be willing to be in it for the long haul to get big benefits. If you have got benefit in the short term then that sounds very positive.

As you will read in the LLLT thread, some folks measure their benefit by improvements in their hearing profile measured by audiograms before and during treatment. It might be worth trying to get one done.

You can find links to a more reasonably priced chinese laser 'lucky laser' towards the end of the other thread.

I hope you keep us updated with your further treatment - we need more feedback about this treatment from people who have actually used it. There is a lot of negative opinion from people who haven't but who shout quite loud and it would be good to put that in perspective with some real experiences.

 

[tomm]

A list of available units, where they be purchased from, prices and reviews would be good.

Plus maybe a thread for lending/group-buying.

 

[felinefine]

A list of available units, where they be purchased from, prices and reviews would be good.

Plus maybe a thread for lending/group-buying.

Really good idea! I think I will start a list (with the reviews/edits based on what I have read from all of you here on this board, and outside of it) and then pull more opinions that way.

 

[felinefine]

https://www.tinnitustalk.com/thread...for-tinnitus-dr-wilden.295/page-14#post-70076


https://www.tinnitustalk.com/thread...for-tinnitus-dr-wilden.295/page-22#post-84612

Thank you @attheedgeofscience !

@FERNANDO GIL (I'm sorry I think I called you Fernando girl in the past (( Anyway, I know you said you purchased yours from China, however I know purchasing directly from China is not very reliable from my experience, and I also read this in some of your posts. So what made you select this laser? Do you feel differently about this product, even though it is a China-based?

 

[felinefine]

I have been trying this for a few weeks using a MLS laser (Dr Wilden's in ear model) that I got second hand. I try to do 2 sessions of 45 mins a day with occasional breaks. I have not noticed any improvements yet so cannot particularly recommend this protocol as one that has worked for me - although maybe one day. I gather you have to be willing to be in it for the long haul to get big benefits. If you have got benefit in the short term then that sounds very positive.

As you will read in the LLLT thread, some folks measure their benefit by improvements in their hearing profile measured by audiograms before and during treatment. It might be worth trying to get one done.

You can find links to a more reasonably priced chinese laser 'lucky laser' towards the end of the other thread.

I hope you keep us updated with your further treatment - we need more feedback about this treatment from people who have actually used it. There is a lot of negative opinion from people who haven't but who shout quite loud and it would be good to put that in perspective with some real experiences.

Thanks yes I need to ask my doctor about what laser he used (what do I ask-frequency and wavelength, yes? I will look back at the forums to see).

How long have you been using your laser? Also, what symptoms do you have? Do you also suffer from fullness and did you acquire your tinnitus/ear symptoms from acoustic trauma?

 

[felinefine]

@attheedgeofscience @dboy @tomm

I am tagging you all, because you all have some interest and/or experience in these lasers, and I don't know if when I post if you also see my response on your alerts.

Anyway, I will ask my doctor about this laser in particular, but what is interesting is that he does not use this laser for hearing loss. He has only used it in one other person who had hearing problems. He did one session and the man's hearing was helped-this improvement was also seen on an audiogram. But he didn't charge me for the laser session, and just included it in my doctor visit out of curiosity, to see if it would help me. It seemed to help my fullness somewhat, though this may have been out of hopefulness, especially since the session was only about 15 minutes long. I am rambling...

What is important, is that the laser he used in his office was mainly used for other things-such as one of his patients with severe neuropathy in his legs. After several treatments the man no longer needed to use his walker, and could walk without pain-absolutely incredible.

Another woman had a chronic, painful cyst. I watched the dated videos on his iPhone (he was thrilled to show me and had gotten permission from his patient), as the cyst slowly vanished with each treatment. After the 3rd treatment the cyst was completely gone-no trace of it whatsoever. This was a video, not some picture that was edited. She even pushed on it and you could see a huge ball moving around, it actually looked painful. Vanished.

Clearly lasers are healing. if they can help with my hearing problems, I am all in.

 

[dboy]

Frequency and wavelength are essentially the same parameter - the values have an inverse relationship. Wavelength is usually quoted in nanometres (nm). You need to know wavelength and power. The power is usually quoted in mW. The MLS/Lux Spa laser is 30mW which is quite weak, but I think the idea is that 'cos it fits into the ear more of the beam reaches the relevant area and less is wasted.

I have been treating myself only a few weeks. I have T from both acoustic trauma and ototoxic ear drops. I only have T now. I had mild hyperacusis and ear fullness for a couple of months following my most recent T increase but they either faded naturally or were helped by the HBO that I did.

@Nick J. has suggested taking coenzyme Q10 alongside LLLT. I'm using a low dose, thinking about getting a higher dose.

Thanks yes I need to ask my doctor about what laser he used (what do I ask-frequency and wavelength, yes? I will look back at the forums to see).

How long have you been using your laser? Also, what symptoms do you have? Do you also suffer from fullness and did you acquire your tinnitus/ear symptoms from acoustic trauma?

 

[felinefine]

@dboy thank you for your edits! I have added them above.

Did you feel that the fullness was from "hearing loss" or from swelling? I still am not sure what this fullness is.

Also, did you do a hard chamber HBOT, the one that is a "solid" chamber, or did you mHBOT -mild/soft chamber aka one that inflates and has lower atmospheric pressure? Did you have the fullness in both ears?

 

[dboy]

@felinefine the fullness feeling came with hearing loss I think. It wasn't massive, just a sensation that went away as the damage settled into the chronic phase. I did HBO in a hard multi-person chamber - lots of MS centres have them in the UK. I did not do high pressures though as I was concerned about barotrauma. I did about 26 sessions over three weeks, sometimes 2 a day, started 2.5 weeks after damage.

 

[felinefine]

@dboy also, would it be a good idea you think, to get a different laser (one that is stronger than the MLS laser), and just get an ear piece that allows it to reach closer to the cochlea?

I would like the idea of investing in a laser that is a bit stronger, so that down the line if there are any other health issues that pop up, the laser might also be able to treat these more efficiently.

 

[felinefine]

@dboy do you know what pressure you did in the chamber?

I also think it's amazing there are so many centers in the UK. The states is very behind in recognizing how wonderful chambers are for all sorts of health problems.

Finally (sorry for all the questions) do you know of others that have had this fullness feeling for awhile before it left? I am worried as mine has been going on for about 6 months now.

 

[dboy]

@dboy also, would it be a good idea you think, to get a different laser (one that is stronger than the MLS laser), and just get an ear piece that allows it to reach closer to the cochlea?

I would like the idea of investing in a laser that is a bit stronger, so that down the line if there are any other health issues that pop up, the laser might also be able to treat these more efficiently.

Sure, that sounds a smart idea if you can find/make a suitable earpiece.

I think most of my dives were to 16 foot. I did try 33 foot a couple of times. It was partly about fitting into the dive schedule at the MS centre.

 

[dboy]

My only thought is do not go too strong with the laser - it will be pointed at your brain as well as your inner ear. Stay in the range of tried LLLT for tinnitus treatments.

 

[felinefine]

Thanks @dboy! Do you know what that was in psi or atmospheric pressures?

 

[felinefine]

My only thought is do not go too strong with the laser - it will be pointed at your brain as well as your inner ear. Stay in the range of tried LLLT for tinnitus treatments.

That's smart, yes I realize it would be possible to overdo it. What is the range? Did I read that Dr. Wilden goes up to 200mW?! Is this high/ only suitable for short-term?

 

[dboy]

According to online calculator 16ft = 6.94 psi.

That's smart, yes I realize it would be possible to overdo it. What is the range? Did I read that Dr. Wilden goes up to 200mW?! Is this high/ only suitable for short-term?

Yes, I think that is for short term. Also I believe that power is shone from a foot or so away from the ear so the beam is diffused over an area rather than into the ear. There are pictures in the LLLT thread. The guys that have been for treatment with Dr. W or Anne Harilla could comment better than me.

 

[felinefine]

@dboy ah, ok got it.

So is it better to do treatment in the office then? Are the "at home" lasers kind of a joke if you don't at least do a few treatments in the clinic? I guess most of this may be speculation...

 

[dboy]

What can I say... I hope the at home lasers are not a joke or I have wasted a lot of money. But I have got the impression that the clinic treatment can help to kickstart the process. If you have already felt some benefit then find out what power that was with (as you plan to do) and decide from there.

 

[FERNANDO GIL]

Hi @filinefine

You no the right track, if decideing to start the LLLt.
What I can say is the folowing:

LLLT is ben workimg for me, as I know is working for some other people, on this fórum.
If your main ear problem is on the low frequencies, your response is faster, if it is on the high frequencies will take longer. The reason of so still a lyyle mistery , but for sure is cause high frequencies are more "damage" during our aging process, so they will take longer to eal.

For a faster efect you should start with a power session, or at Dr Wilden or at Anne Harila in Norway, but as @dboy says, if you already felt some benefit then maybe you should pass it for now.

The treatments are diferent, Dr wilden only uses one wavelenght and tretament last one hour, and at Anne Arilla you will get up to 4/5 hours of tretament a day and with diferente wavelenghts.

Concerning buying a laser. I did buy the 650nm/80 Mw from Dr Wilden, (is a pen) and now sold it and did buy one from Lucky laser in China. The Lucky laser made in china is used by Anne Harila, so if one the bigest specialist in the world with laser trearment use it, it should be good. Actualy the laser was ordered by herself.

I think you have now some info. Hope everything works for you.

Fernando

 

[felinefine]

@FERNANDO GIL wow thank you for your detailed post! That is so helpful!

I did not know Anne uses this laser. She also purchased it from this site? Did she say anything about Dr. Wilden's laser, or how her laser compares to others? More importantly, do you see a big effect from this laser and have you had audiograms recently (I think I just saw your audiograms from before you started this treatment in a past post)?

I am 24 so I know I have some hearing damage, but mainly suffer from this fullness/dullness in my right ear after being exposed to a loud flare gun in that ear. So frustrating.

Also, with this lucky laser, I see that the wavelength is much higher than the MLS. Does that mean you need to hold it further away from your ear/do it less frequently? It seems like it may be even a better/stronger laser than the ones that are at 30mW?


I have also edited my post above, thank you!

 

[Nick J.]

I have been trying this for a few weeks using a MLS laser (Dr Wilden's in ear model) that I got second hand. I try to do 2 sessions of 45 mins a day with occasional breaks. I have not noticed any improvements yet so cannot particularly recommend this protocol as one that has worked for me

Hmmm...seems like longer to me, since u bought the MLS. (Time fly's u know) hehe
But anyway, its a bit of a mystery to me, as to why u dont get any responds.
After i got back from Anne in Norway the 21.dec, i have been on a break from LLLT and since then my dad has been useing it with what seems like great succes.
He called me the day after and told me about higher T in both ears.
That was after 50min. The night before and 50min. Again in the morning.
He is only surppose to use it for one week and the goal was to see if he responded at all, which he did.
Now yesterday he told me he was doing laundry and his washingmachine was slinging the clothes really fast and normally he wouldent notice this noise as unpleacent, but that day it was and he had to leave the room.
This is because the cells are now already healing in the frequency and the then tell him the dont like the sound.
So he already got much more then he could have hoped for and are now hooked on LLLT.
He had similar reduced hearing like me 3 years ago and got hearingaid and in those 3 years with hearingaid, his hearing went from bad to insane bad!!
Now he talks like deaf people do, with that stange flat tone. Not quite as bad, but its getting there. So he needs to turn things around and FAST obv.

Again im sorry to hear u dont respond. I really have no clue as to why.
But it really doesn't make sense to me, unless u have better hearing then expressed in here.
Cuz with "normal" hearing, i could imagine u wont notice anything.

Some more info that a user requested to add (thank you!) to the laser thread. He said this was from aaron beck (I am summarizing). He suggested finding the mW and wavelength that works best, for finding someone to build a cheaper laser.

I talked to Anne and she once tried to build lasers herself and stopped it after building a few.
To much trouble she said ad got to expensive. Its not just about getting some good diodes and a battery and of u go. The machine that controls the diodes needs strong parts inside to deliver and support the power through the diodes. She told me about people she had known through a lifetime doing lasertreatment and these people where building lasers and where scientists and super bright. Making a really good laser from scrats was almost like doing brainsurgery from what i could understand. So im now thinking the idea is nice, but a bit naive.
Its something u can do if u have alot of money, skill and time to burn!
But if u need the treatment, u just cant waste time on something like this.
Then lets say u finally come up with a laser after 6month, which is a short timeframe i think....
Then u need to test it for minimum 3-6month to know if it is "Tinnitool bad" if its just ok or maybe seems good.
If its within the first two, are u then willing to use it for 1-3 years and only getting somewhat "ok" treatment, when u could be pretty sure u would get optimal treatment if u had just bought a tested expensive laser or done clinic treatment??
If u dont make a great laser right out of the gate, then u need to go back to the drawingboard and start over and with more time wasted.
And in this hole process, i cant imagine u have nasty T every day and then have the patience to do this with no garanties of succes.

And who is this "some one" suppose to be, that is gonna put time and money into this and then sell it off like it was just candy?

But this is ofcourse just my new take on it.

Anyway, I know you said you purchased yours from China, however I know purchasing directly from China is not very reliable from my experience, and I also read this in some of your posts. So what made you select this laser? Do you feel differently about this product, even though it is a China-based?

The luckylaser is not made by small yellow ricechewing people trying to scam u.
The woman behind the laser is very skilled and so is her husband and he was from Europe and was either scientist or something like that from what i remember Anne told me in Norwegian hehe. I might have missed some during translation.
Anyway, Anne have also done business with Lucy for more then 20years now within the field of lasers and are still doing so.
So forget about normal chinese scam in this case imo.
Im getting a laser from her like the one Fernando has in a few month from now!

Another woman had a chronic, painful cyst. I watched the dated videos on his iPhone (he was thrilled to show me and had gotten permission from his patient), as the cyst slowly vanished with each treatment. After the 3rd treatment the cyst was completely gone-no trace of it whatsoever. This was a video, not some picture that was edited. She even pushed on it and you could see a huge ball moving around, it actually looked painful. Vanished.

Where was this cyst located in the body??
Cuz this kind of healing is totally new to me!
Was this also done with the same laser he used on u??
Cuz then im really interested in knowing the wavelength and power output on his laser!

 

[FERNANDO GIL]

did not know Anne uses this laser. She also purchased it from this site?

I think @Nick J. already asked you, they known for over 20 years.

Also, with this lucky laser, I see that the wavelength is much higher than the MLS. Does that mean you need to hold it further away from your ear/do it less frequently? It seems like it may be even a better/stronger laser than the ones that are at 30mW?

With this laser you have more power and two different wavelenght. 650 nm /(up to) 120 Mw and 808 nm/ (up to) 900 Mw. The use method is the same as Dr Wilden inside the ear.

Sheers

The woman behind the laser is very skilled and so is her husband and he was from Europe

Her name is Lucy, and she is from Bulgary, used to make lasers for Sovit Union in the 60´s /70´s. I think this is correct.

Again im sorry to hear u dont respond. I really have no clue as to why.
But it really doesn't make sense to me, unless u have better hearing then expressed in here.
Cuz with "normal" hearing, i could imagine u wont notice anything.

@dboy
The only explanation I see is that the laser are not working correctly, and since you buy then in second hand, maybe something is wrong with the lasers. I sold mine to a lady she is 65 years old, and she already noticed something, maybe placebo, I can not promise. But she is happy from this last 20 days. She will make a audiogram in 8th January and I will check if really something happen.

 

[felinefine]

@Nick J. ha! I am having a terrible time trying to quote on posts it seems. I am just going to write you in response to your latest post above. Can you please tell me how to quote individual quotes within your page (or can someone else)? That way in the future it will be easier for you to follow what I am saying! I only know how to "quote" the entire post. I tried segmenting it and ended up just writing WITHIN the post-misquoting someone. Oops! I ended up counting it as failure and just deleted it

Anyway, thank you for the description of your dad as well! Is he using the MLS laser right now? This is the one you are using right now, before you get the lucky laser from @FERNANDO GIL ? That's wonderful that this laser is legitimate, I am getting more sold on this one, due to it being more powerful, and still less expensive than the others. Is there a reason you are not purchasing it directly online? @FERNANDO GIL would I be ok with purchasing it directly from the link you provided?

@Nick J. how long have you been using the MLS again, and how long did it take you to see effects? I am also going to add this to my ongoing laser post.This information would be great to keep track of for all of us to follow you! Same with you @FERNANDO GIL !

And @Nick J. I know isn't that amazing about her cyst! What was even more amazing is the man walking! These were both done by the same laser that was done on me, yes. However, the cyst is easier to believe because you can actually see it disappearing, the man walking, unless you knew the guy, you would kind of have to just believe it was healing him. Unfortunately science isn't able to "prove" it. When things like this happen, sometimes they can be seen as "too good to be true," and it is a shame but people with automatically dismiss treatments like this-relatively cheap extremely effective treatments that can change people's lives!! Extremely sad. Again, I don't know if this laser is great for ears and hearing, but it certainly has been amazing for other things. I will be able to figure out exactly what the laser is on the 30th. I'll be sure to post the details on this thread.

 

[felinefine]

Thank you for your post @FERNANDO GIL !

In your opinion, do you believe the lucky laser to be the best for home treatments then? I know this is the one you went with, so I am imagining the answer is yes, but just confirming

Also, it looks like the protocol would depend on the person's audiograms/symptoms. For instance, I mainly have problems with my right ear. Do you know how I could figure out what the protocol should be for me if I got the lucky laser? Or, would I just get one and do a longer treatment on my "bad ear," or just treat my bad ear (I think I read somewhere that it is necessary to treat both ears, even though one would be treated longer than the other in this case)?

 

[Nick J.]

Can you please tell me how to quote individual quotes within your page (or can someone else)?

No worrys! I had this problem myself in the beginning!
U just press a text u wonna quote, just like when u wonna copy/paste a text! From there the next step should be a nobrainer.
U can keep doing this in the same post! Just make some space for it. Looks better.

Anyway, thank you for the description of your dad as well! Is he using the MLS laser right now? This is the one you are using right now, before you get the lucky laser from @FERNANDO GIL?

Yes i bought the MLS from Wilden 3 month ago and it works, but its to expensive compared to how effective it is.
The Luckylaser is much bette valued, since u can buy two for the same price as the MLS and still have MUCH more power behind u.
So its a easy choice imo.
And im not gonna buy anything from Fernando.
I will be buying the same laser, but have Anne doing it for me i think, since she is very helpfull and kind towards patients and both me and Fernando is going back to get more treatment from her.

Are u Aaron beck?
Cuz your profile comes out of nowhere and that seems a bit odd.

how long have you been using the MLS again, and how long did it take you to see effects?

Reads from page 15 and until present day.
Alot u can learn i think. Fernando, me and others have been dokumenting alot!
https://www.tinnitustalk.com/thread...us-—-general-discussion-dr-wilden.295/page-15

I know isn't that amazing about her cyst! What was even more amazing is the man walking!

To my the cyst seems more amazing, since i can some what understand the things going on to make the man walk. But im more puzzled how laser can make bad cells like a cyst go away. Cuz that makes me think about cancer also.
But yaa...plz ask about wavelength and power! Or just what the name of the laser is, so we can look it up!

In your opinion, do you believe the lucky laser to be the best for home treatments then?

To answer this myself, i would say yes!
If u are a really old person or a confused teenager or basicly a person the is not good at seeking knowledge, then i wouldent recommend it. Cuz its a strong laser and u could possibly overtreat.
Thats where the MLS is good. Eventhe biggest fool can use it safely.
But for people who has some knowledge in LLLT and have seen how the do in clinics like in Norway (not wonnabe clinics) then the luckylaser is most likely choice number uno!
Pretty sure Fernando agrees. But he can add more if he thinks different.

 

[felinefine]

@Nick J. Thank you for your nice reply!

Ok I am trying to respond again with your directions on how to quote a person. Do I push the quote at the bottom of your posting first, and then copy whatever I want to paste? I tried just copying part of your page, and then posting it in a new comment, but that didn't work

 

[felinefine]

hahah ok I am laughing, @Nick J., why would you think I am aaron beck? I do not even know who that is. Yes I just started the board like anyone else. Is it odd because I write so much you mean? I am trying to get this thing figured out so I can start on my road to recovery like you and @FERNANDO GIL , yeah!