Low-Level Laser Therapy (LLLT) for Tinnitus — Experiences (Dr. Wilden, etc.)

[nogood]

Without lens its out of control. Need some way to control the spread of beam.

Lol that makes two of us.

I think your words apply to nogood, but sadly not to myself. I am a dabbler with just enough knowledge to be dangerous.

I bought this laser module to play with last November.

http://odicforce.com/epages/05c54fb...6-7778-4d36-adc0-0098b2af7c4e/Products/OFL211

That produces a naturally diffused beam if you take the lens off. I have been assuming that the beam from a laser diode is sufficiently diffused unless it is focussed by having a lens applied for that specific purpose. That said, here is a photo of the earpiece of my MLS laser. It does look like a lens is applied there.

View attachment 4672

 

[bwspot]

Tinnitol is a total waste of money.
You huld consider the one I bought in China.

http://www.lucky-laser.com/productview.php?id=LK-COMBI

It´s 650nm /120 Mw and a 808 nm/900 Mw one probe only of each frequency. With this yo will have a good laser for a better price.

The owner is lady called Lulu.
Here is her mail luckylaser@vip.163.com

The cost is 1500$ + 158$ shipping costs.
Just to tell you that they don't have laser in stock,, they buil it according to the orders. So you will have to wait a few days to get it.

Fernando

yes this is much cheaper, but the only problem i see is that i would not know what protocols to use?
What if i do something wrong? To much power or exposing myself for too long?
Could I do more damage then good?
It would be really nice to have some guidance.
I tried to contact Anne Harila to get some advice but she either is busy or does not reply to questions posted on the web.

 

[rainman]

After being in Regensburg Dr.Wildens old clinic, last autumn, hyperacusis has not returned. And i have 1,5 year old "electric" daughter at home+ dog. I dont wear ear protection at home but always when im driving or generally going outside of my home. Quite paranoid about that. But i don't feel that my ears are strong enough to go to concert, even with earplugs, though. I have not used the pen for a few months beacuse of "the big moving" to a new home. Prior to that i used few times a week. Most change i noticed after the 3 days in the clinic. My 0,02 cent user experience.

 

[FERNANDO GIL]

yes this is much cheaper, but the only problem i see is that i would not know what protocols to use?
What if i do something wrong? To much power or exposing myself for too long?
Could I do more damage then good?
It would be really nice to have some guidance.
I tried to contact Anne Harila to get some advice but she either is busy or does not reply to questions posted on the web.

I offer to help. In anything I can.

 

[bwspot]

I offer to help. In anything I can.

I contacted Dr. Anne and she replied so I am awaiting for her further response.
In USA there is this guy that I might try. His website has tons of resources and he claims to understand laser.
http://www.healinglightseminars.com/Laser-Therapy/Laser-Research-Library/
http://www.healinglightseminars.com...y/ear-hearing-loss-tinnitus-menieres-disease/

 

[briano]

Having trouble ordering my laser from Dr. Wilden. The site wants me to transfer funds from my bank account. I prefer using a credit card. Not exactly sure if I feel safe with a bank transfer. Any advice?

 

[bwspot]

Having trouble ordering my laser from Dr. Wilden. The site wants me to transfer funds from my bank account. I prefer using a credit card. Not exactly sure if I feel safe with a bank transfer. Any advice?

He does not accept anything else but the transfer. He claims that this is for security reasons which i don't understand as papal or CC would be much more secure. That is the worse part of the deal. Dump 2500 euro to some account. Sucks.

 

[Nick J.]

Having trouble ordering my laser from Dr. Wilden. The site wants me to transfer funds from my bank account. I prefer using a credit card. Not exactly sure if I feel safe with a bank transfer. Any advice?

I would advise to buy the laser Fernando is mentioning!
Im ordering it myself atm.
Much better deal/value and better treatment imo.

 

[bwspot]

I am thinking about the same.
Half the price.

 

[Dr. Nagler]

I am thinking about the same.
Half the price.

So here's how I would make that decision, @bwspot.

I think it's fair to say that if the LLLT device you purchase does not have the desired result, then you are always going to wonder whether on not Dr. Wilden's device would have been a better choice for you. And if you are bound and determined to give LLLT a try (as seems to be the case), then if the cheaper device does not work, eventually you are going to shell out the additional money to try Dr. Wilden's device if not actually visit him in his clinic. Not saying that Dr. Wilden's device is necessarily going to do the trick for you; just saying that if Dr. Wilden's device doesn't, I assume you'll totally rule out LLLT in your search for relief.

So the real question comes down to how likely is it that you will get the desired result from the cheaper device. If you think it's 90%, then I'd go with the cheaper device. But if it's, say, 75% or less, then you might want to forgo buying the cheaper one and go directly to the "state of the art" unit. That's how I'd look at it, anyway.

Please note again that the above reasoning assumes that you have already decided to do LLLT.

Hope this helps.

Dr. Stephen Nagler

 

[Steve]

He does not accept anything else but the transfer. He claims that this is for security reasons which i don't understand as papal or CC would be much more secure. That is the worse part of the deal. Dump 2500 euro to some account. Sucks.

That is very strange. The one thing that paying by CC or Paypal does for the consumer is offer a level of protection and confidence. Why on earth would he want to erode that?

 

[Dr. Nagler]

That is very strange.

It makes perfect sense to me.

The one thing that paying by CC or Paypal does for the consumer is offer a level of protection and confidence. Why on earth would he want to erode that?

Stringplayer's Second Law:

The degree to which a person will apply common sense and logic in search of relief from a malady is inversely proportional to the square of that person's misery and desperation.

Why in the world should Wilden care about consumer protection and confidence? In the Land of Scam consumer protection and confidence do not enter into the equation. Misery and desperation trump everything. And in that regard, Wilden has a captive audience.

stephen nagler

 

[RaZaH]

When you recieve money via Paypal you pay a percentage .
And with 2500 Euro that will be a considerable amount.

 

[Dr. Nagler]

When you recieve money via Paypal you pay a percentage .
And with 2500 Euro that will be a considerable amount.

Precisely. Why should Wilden sacrifice 25 Euro in the interest consumer protection and confidence when they do not enter into the equation at all!

stephen nagler

 

[RaZaH]

Actually it is much more then 25 euro.

 

[Dr. Nagler]

Actually it is much more then 25 euro.

You are right. My mistake. It would be 75 Euro.

Same principle applies.

stephen nagler

 

[attheedgeofscience]

Precisely. Why should Wilden sacrifice 25 Euro in the interest consumer protection and confidence when they do not enter into the equation at all!

stephen nagler

Dr. Nagler, when I went to see Prof. Jeanmonod, the transaction was also done by bank transfer:

https://www.tinnitustalk.com/thread...used-ultrasound-surgery.276/page-7#post-73183

We use PayPal in my own clinic when I do follow-up counseling long distance. The cost is 0.97%. So in the case of 2500 Euro, that would actually come to a bit less than 25 Euro.

According to this calculator, the transaction fee of $2,908 (= 2500 euros) would be $84.63:

http://thefeecalculator.com/

I suggest this thread is steered back onto the topic of LLLT (and not hypothetical claims as to whether Dr. Wilden can be trusted or not in relation to money transfers - unless there is concrete evidence of this being the case).

attheedgeofscience
16/JAN/2015.

 

[Dr. Nagler]

I suggest this thread is steered back onto the topic of LLLT (and not hypothetical claims as to whether Dr. Wilden can be trusted or not in relation to money transfer - unless there is concrete evidence of this being the case).

I entered the thread only to help @bwspot in his decision regarding which laser device to purchase. (See my Post #494 above.) Seemed like pretty good advice to me, and very much on topic.

I believe it was one of the Managers of this board who wondered why Wilden wouldn't take PayPal and who raised the issue of consumer protection and confidence.

stephen nagler

 

[Steve]

I believe it was one of the Managers of this board who wondered why Wilden wouldn't take PayPal and who raised the issue of consumer protection and confidence.

Guilty as charged. More of a musing on the business sense really. When you have a product that is the subject of some debate as to its efficacy I would expect that you would try and give consumer confidence where possible. But it is veering off-topic.

 

[attheedgeofscience]

I believe it was one of the Managers of this board who wondered why Wilden wouldn't take PayPal and who raised the issue of consumer protection and confidence.

Dr. Nagler, @Steve raised a question or a consideration - which you then turned into an insinuation.

That's the difference.

 

[Dr. Nagler]

Res ipsa loquitur.

 

[briano]

So here's how I would make that decision, @bwspot.

I think it's fair to say that if the LLLT device you purchase does not have the desired result, then you are always going to wonder whether on not Dr. Wilden's device would have been a better choice for you. And if you are bound and determined to give LLLT a try (as seems to be the case), then if the cheaper device does not work, eventually you are going to shell out the additional money to try Dr. Wilden's device if not actually visit him in his clinic. Not saying that Dr. Wilden's device is necessarily going to do the trick for you; just saying that if Dr. Wilden's device doesn't, I assume you'll totally rule out LLLT in your search for relief.

So the real question comes down to how likely is it that you will get the desired result from the cheaper device. If you think it's 90%, then I'd go with the cheaper device. But if it's, say, 75% or less, then you might want to forgo buying the cheaper one and go directly to the "state of the art" unit. That's how I'd look at it, anyway.

Please note again that the above reasoning assumes that you have already decided to do LLLT.

Hope this helps.

Dr. Stephen Nagler

Dr. Nagler hit the nail on the head for me. In my opinion, if Wilden's laser does not work for me than no laser will. With that in mind, I really want to go directly to the main guy. He's even offered to correspond with me, look at my audiograms, and discuss the treatment along the way. All of this is great! Honestly, I'm just afraid to do a bank transfer. If I were buying something from Ikea, I'd be afraid to do a bank transfer. I've had my credit cards and banking info hacked before.

 

[bwspot]

So here's how I would make that decision, @bwspot.

I think it's fair to say that if the LLLT device you purchase does not have the desired result, then you are always going to wonder whether on not Dr. Wilden's device would have been a better choice for you. And if you are bound and determined to give LLLT a try (as seems to be the case), then if the cheaper device does not work, eventually you are going to shell out the additional money to try Dr. Wilden's device if not actually visit him in his clinic. Not saying that Dr. Wilden's device is necessarily going to do the trick for you; just saying that if Dr. Wilden's device doesn't, I assume you'll totally rule out LLLT in your search for relief.

So the real question comes down to how likely is it that you will get the desired result from the cheaper device. If you think it's 90%, then I'd go with the cheaper device. But if it's, say, 75% or less, then you might want to forgo buying the cheaper one and go directly to the "state of the art" unit. That's how I'd look at it, anyway.

Please note again that the above reasoning assumes that you have already decided to do LLLT.

Hope this helps.

Dr. Stephen Nagler

Not bad thinking but I got another idea. Go to Oslo and see dr Anne and do 5 days session. During that time enjoy Oslo and take pictures which I do as my hobby. Check if there are any results and if none I still got pictures and travel experience.

 

[briano]

Not bad thinking but I got another idea. Go to Oslo and see dr Anne and do 5 days session. During that time enjoy Oslo and take pictures which I do as my hobby. Check if there are any results and if none I still got pictures and travel experience.

I've considered doing something like that. What kind of results can you get from a five day session?

 

[FERNANDO GIL]

When you recieve money via Paypal you pay a percentage .
And with 2500 Euro that will be a considerable amount.

Completely right.
And must be bigger, cause is business is small.

Not bad thinking but I got another idea. Go to Oslo and see dr Anne and do 5 days session. During that time enjoy Oslo and take pictures which I do as my hobby. Check if there are any results and if none I still got pictures and travel experience.

I've considered doing something like that. What kind of results can you get from a five day session?

For the two:
Anne does not sell lasers, she will advise you to buy the same laser I bought, from LUCKY LASER.
Good part:
1- She uses them on the tretaments and at her clinics, so quality wise is more than aproved.
2- You can ask her to make the order direct, so Lucky laser owner will know that Anne is checking quality after you received the laser.
3- When you receive the laser, you can chat with Anne and ask for advice how your treatment is working and getting some wise advices if need it. You can even see how it works during your stay at Anne, even do, the one is more friendly user, than the one she as at the clinic.
4- The laser has two probes, 650nm/120Mw and 808 /900 Mw ( DO NOT USE 808 nm above 400 MW on your ears, just to strong. you can regulate the power out), you can use 808nm above 400Mw only for pain relief and joints. NOT IN THE EAR.
So compared with Dr widen, YOU WILL GET MORE FOR LESS.- but she told me that more power means less quality time for the probe, so she advice only use it for other treatments ( where you will need more power to be efective) only when you finished with the T treatment.
6- You don´t need to place the order right after finishing the treatment. You can wait a 2/3 weeks, see the results from the treatment and ask Anne to help you placing the order to the factory, after.

Bad part:
1-You will need to wire the money to the factory , as you will do to Dr Wilden, no diference there.
2-Factory does not have lasers in stock, they produce them as they get the order/payment. And take around a week time at least to make it.
3- She is not in Oslo but in Sandvika, if need I will give you all details to get here. Sandvika is 15 km from Oslo.

Besides this I think I can not do much more.
I´m here in Norway, if you have other questions, let me know, I will ask her tomorrow and post here.

This morning when I wake up it took around a few minutes till I noticed the T. My felling is that you will order the laser right after you came here.

All the best
Sheers

 

[briano]

What is the consensus on doing a bank transfer to Wilden? Do we trust bank transfers?

 

[dboy]

@briano I think that the transfer itself should be safe. But you will not get the consumer protection that credit cards or Paypal offer should there be a dispute (eg. the laser you receive is faulty and responsibility is denied, etc.)

I am no expert on this so anyone please correct me.

 

[bwspot]

Completely right.
And must be bigger, cause is business is small.



For the two:
Anne does not sell lasers, she will advise you to buy the same laser I bought, from LUCKY LASER.
Good part:
1- She uses them on the tretaments and at her clinics, so quality wise is more than aproved.
2- You can ask her to make the order direct, so Lucky laser owner will know that Anne is checking quality after you received the laser.
3- When you receive the laser, you can chat with Anne and ask for advice how your treatment is working and getting some wise advices if need it. You can even see how it works during your stay at Anne, even do, the one is more friendly user, than the one she as at the clinic.
4- The laser has two probes, 650nm/120Mw and 808 /900 Mw ( DO NOT USE 808 nm above 400 MW on your ears, just to strong. you can regulate the power out), you can use 808nm above 400Mw only for pain relief and joints. NOT IN THE EAR.
So compared with Dr widen, YOU WILL GET MORE FOR LESS.- but she told me that more power means less quality time for the probe, so she advice only use it for other treatments ( where you will need more power to be efective) only when you finished with the T treatment.
6- You don´t need to place the order right after finishing the treatment. You can wait a 2/3 weeks, see the results from the treatment and ask Anne to help you placing the order to the factory, after.

Bad part:
1-You will need to wire the money to the factory , as you will do to Dr Wilden, no diference there.
2-Factory does not have lasers in stock, they produce them as they get the order/payment. And take around a week time at least to make it.
3- She is not in Oslo but in Sandvika, if need I will give you all details to get here. Sandvika is 15 km from Oslo.

Besides this I think I can not do much more.
I´m here in Norway, if you have other questions, let me know, I will ask her tomorrow and post here.

This morning when I wake up it took around a few minutes till I noticed the T. My felling is that you will order the laser right after you came here.

All the best
Sheers

nice summary
how long are the sessions?
Is it better to stay in Oslo and travel to Sandvika everyday or be closer to the clinic?
I though about combining both treatment and some sight seeing.
I got a reply from her but, nothing today yet, she must be busy I guess?

 

[FERNANDO GIL]

nice summary
how long are the sessions?
Is it better to stay in Oslo and travel to Sandvika everyday or be closer to the clinic?
I though about combining both treatment and some sight seeing.
I got a reply from her but, nothing today yet, she must be busy I guess?

Hi
The price is 1000 Nok a day, you will get up to 4 hours a day of treatment.
The best is to stay in Sandvika, Anne will pick you up and drop you as well.
She usually say to clients to stay at a Guest house.
I stayed there the first time, but this time, since we were two, we decided to rent a house.
Go to www.airbnb.com, for sure you will find a nice place to stay here in Sandvika. If you don´t mind to stay in someone else house. Hotels are just way to expensive.

If you want to go to Oslo you get the train, is just 300 meters from Anne Clinic.
I think at week days there is train every 10 minutes.
http://www.flytoget.no/eng/

After all there was something to say.
Sheers

 

[FERNANDO GIL]

What is the consensus on doing a bank transfer to Wilden? Do we trust bank transfers?

The transfer can be proved by your own bank. Your bank can check if money arrived Dr Wilden account or not.