Low-Level Laser Therapy (LLLT) for Tinnitus — Experiences (Dr. Wilden, etc.)

[Reinier]

I use it now and notice gradual improvements in sound quality

Interesting. Do you have distorted hearing? My hearing is distorted. I used to train my ears to hear distortion and now after my NIHL my ears themselves make the distortion.

 

[From the north]

Hi all,
I am new to this forum and I would like to share my recent experience with LLLT and Dr Wilden.

First a little about my condition:
I am a male 27 years old. In november 2014 I started having some spikes of high-pitch tinnitus that quickly fade away in my left ear. The frequency of these spikes increased day by day, from once a day to several times a day for about 2 month.
In January 2015 I woke up one day with a strong hyperacusis in my right ear. Any high-pitch noise like the switching of a light sitwch or touch of a plastic bag made it really painful for my right ear. The hyperacusis lasted for 1-2 days and disappeared. Then it came back one week later. Same thing it disappeared after a couple of days.
Then at the end of January 2015 I woke up one morning feeling that I had clearly lost some hearing on the right ear. I performed an audiogram with my handphone and I saw I lost around 30dB on the low frequencies on the right ear (125-250 Hz). I went to the hospital, they prescribed me with oral corticosteroids (60mg) and I felt totally normal after about 15 hours. But unfortunately the same hearing loss occured 2 weeks later one morning, just like first time.
I took corticosteroids again and problem resolved... This cycle repeated itself for 3 month and the frequency of hearing losses became more and more frequent. Because I knew corticosteroids were not good for me I tried not taking them. But by not taking then the hearing loss actually became deeper and deeper and after 10 days I woke up one night at 4 am with violent vertigo and vomiting etc. I knew at that moment that it was Meniere's disease (tumor had been ruled about with MRI). That time was very very stressful because I saw that I was going to lose control of my life, lose my job etc.

I tried many alternatives like low sodiun diet, The John of Ohio Meniere's Regimen, sleeping with a higher position at night, Chinese medicine and acupuncture, etc. None of them changed anything, my crises kept getting more and more frequent and violent.

That's when I discovered LLLT and Dr. Wilden by widening my searches on the Internet. I contacted Dr Wilden sending him my latest audiogram and he replied to me 1 or 2 days later saying that I was a very good candidate for his Home Therapy as I had relatively mild hearing loss on the low frequencies, was still young, and relatively early in the disease. His diagnosis was "inner ear exhaustion". He told me I should be healed within 3 months. So I bought his home lux spa device for 2600 euros.

As soon as I received the device I started using it, both ears twice 40 min each day. After first treatment I saw I already had clearly improved my hearing on low frequencies, but I still had a dip on my right ear. After 2 days of treatment I had a very strong tinnitus on my right ear, very unsettling... and I started witnessing my hearing on my right ear coming back slowly.. hearing better every minute. My ear felt very very sensitive for a few days but my hearing was fully back to normal. I was still expecting my hearing to drop one night when I wake up but 7 months after recovery it still hasn't dropped. No vertigo attack, no hyperacusis. I still have tinnitus on my right ear at stressful times or after exposing myself to noise. I get the impression that the tinnitus frequency has shifted to higher and higher frequencies.
Now I continue the therapy with his laser but I am only using it about twice a week for 30 min.
Dr Wilden has been very helpful throughout my therapy reassuring me when changes occured and letting me know how I should adapt my therapy. He has been by far the most helpful health professional I have consulted for this ear issue. I had consulted 4 ENTs before him, including a very recognized one, but none of them were of any help (they were all telling me there was nothing I could do and that if it kept worsening I may need surgery or destruction of my ear...)

I hope this will help.

Hi.
What instructions were you given by Dr Wilden? Did he give you new instructions over time?

 

[jdjd09]

@attheedgeofscience

Could you please let us know what you believe LASERS exactly do to the cochlea - do their fix bent/broken hair cells, or help nerve regeneration ? We know they help with ATP and cell regeneration but how does that translate to hair cells in our case - acoustic trauma damage

I use it now and notice gradual improvements in sound quality but keep on wondering what they exactly do - we do have some info on rats and such but maybe Doc. Wilden told you a few other things too

Thanks

Can I ask what laser you are using? Is the improvement significant?

 

[Bobby B]

I use the lucky laser - the most powerful one amongst these units , which also has two wavelengths and use both 650 and 808 mm
The improvement is very gradual , it takes time but it's getting better
For LLLT the steps are happening in months And you need enough power to pass the bone and flesh before the Cochlea and since everyone is built differently I would not waste time and money on a low power unit which may not work as well
I will write a more detailed update in A month

 

[jdjd09]

I use the lucky laser - the most powerful one amongst these units , which also has two wavelengths and use both 650 and 808 mm
The improvement is very gradual , it takes time but it's getting better
For LLLT the steps are happening in months And you need enough power to pass the bone and flesh before the Cochlea and since everyone is built differently I would not waste time and money on a low power unit which may not work as well
I will write a more detailed update in A month

Can I ask how you got the unit, how much it cost, and how long it took to get?

 

[Bobby B]

They have two types - double ear or one ear at a time - took about 3 weeks as its built on order , and then shipping time.
iTs a professional unit well built used in clincs too
As for prices you may check wiht them in December it was 1600 for the one ear and 2100 for the dual ear which I go
I posted some pics in this thread too

Consider this a one year long treatment so the monthly cost is about usd 140 which is about what medications or so would set you back on a ongoing basis - quite reasonable

 

[From the north]

I see! You don't have any comments on the drastically different approach to dosage / time-frame of treatment that Zazzio have compared to Anne? When I talked about it with him he said that it's very important to not overdose it because the cells quickly gets "immunized" (Or whatever it's called, I know there's a medical term for this, but I can't remember it) and stops reacting to the treatment. This is also why he, like others, advices to do long brakes between each treatment. He said he developed this course over the 17 years he's been treating people with LLLT.

I'm not taking anyone's side here, I just would like to have a discussion about what the best way to dosage these things would be!

@attheedgeofscience , do you have any thoughts on this?

thanks!

Hej.
Jag såg precis ditt inlägg även om det är gammalt. Jag vet inte om du gått vidare och behandlat dig med laser men jag har en varning du ska ta till dig. Jag köpte Dr Wildens hemlaser och han gav mig instruktioner att behandla mycket intensivt under lång tid. Efter en tid fick jag biverkningar och informerade Dr Wilden om dom, han sa att allt var en del i örats "uppvaknande". Med tiden blev det inga positiva förbättringar alls och jag har nu avbrutit behandlingen. När jag pratade med Zazzio sa han att Dr Wilden inte får några bra resultat med sitt intensiva behandlande utan att det är viktigt att lägga upp behandlingen med många och ofta långa pauser. Jag har varit hos Zazzio på undersökning och han tror jag har stora chanser till förbättring, även med Dr Wildens hem-laser, om jag efter en tids vila behandlar enl hans upplägg. Var försiktig, särskilt om du får biverkningar. Dr Wilden har inte koll, och är rätt dålig på engelska både i hur han uttrycker sig och hur han förstår vad man skriver/säger till honom. Lycka till

 

[Bobby B]

Sorry but this theory of cells immunized seems Bs to me - pls show us any kind of studies that backup this statement.

I am not saying that laser should be used for hours on at high power everyday becuase you run into cell survival issues , there are papers on this.

These doctors obviousely want everyone to believe that their own method is right and the others are wrong but if this would be the case then no one would have had results at dr Wilden which isn't what happened.
Read Hansi Cross blog , here is a real user who went into details about his experience and results

 

[Reinier]

Hej.
Jag såg precis ditt inlägg även om det är gammalt. Jag vet inte om du gått vidare och behandlat dig med laser men jag har en varning du ska ta till dig. Jag köpte Dr Wildens hemlaser och han gav mig instruktioner att behandla mycket intensivt under lång tid. Efter en tid fick jag biverkningar och informerade Dr Wilden om dom, han sa att allt var en del i örats "uppvaknande". Med tiden blev det inga positiva förbättringar alls och jag har nu avbrutit behandlingen. När jag pratade med Zazzio sa han att Dr Wilden inte får några bra resultat med sitt intensiva behandlande utan att det är viktigt att lägga upp behandlingen med många och ofta långa pauser. Jag har varit hos Zazzio på undersökning och han tror jag har stora chanser till förbättring, även med Dr Wildens hem-laser, om jag efter en tids vila behandlar enl hans upplägg. Var försiktig, särskilt om du får biverkningar. Dr Wilden har inte koll, och är rätt dålig på engelska både i hur han uttrycker sig och hur han förstår vad man skriver/säger till honom. Lycka till

This post of mine is off topic, but I realise that with effort I am able to read/understand a lot what was written here.
Is this Danisch? Norwegian perhaps?

 

[lapidus]

This post of mine is off topic, but I realise that with effort I am able to read/understand a lot what was written here.
Is this Danisch? Norwegian perhaps?

Swedish.

 

[Reinier]

Swedish.

Thank you.
I am pleasantly surprised that I am able to understand quite a lot what was written. I would have expected Norwegian or Danish to be closer to the Dutch language, but I could be wrong. I have been in Sweden a long time ago but was there too short to notice this.

 

[Mithrandir]

Soooooooo how to know for the dosage ? What strategy I have to adopt ? Must be different for each person ? I'm lost know... the 5 days on 30 minutes/2 days off is good/not good ?
It's difficult to understand something now.

 

[Bobby B]

Maybe you can ask doc Wilden - and let us know what he says
I think that there is a certain pace to this healing process wiht lasers, it will take time and we need to tune in the best cruising power for this long process and since everyone's case is different the dosage also varies

 

[Bobby B]

When I started lasers I did ask dr Wilden some questions on dosage/time and all I got is a standard reply a week later suggesting I need to go to his clinic for a treatment
At least Anne was kind enough to give me some real - but brief replies but she said that everyone is different what works for one may not work for all etc..

 

[Mithrandir]

Hum, Dr Wilden was very different with me, He responds in 2 days, I sent my audiograms, he told me, I needn't to go in Ibiza now but I have to buy his device and do it at home, it will be enough. He said I have to be protected by earplug and make audiogram to see how I improve with time.

 

[Bobby B]

Well I told him I already bought the device myself - that's why .
I wouldn't mind going to his clinic too but it's just too far away for me anyway... Especially since I can do it at home
so he told you 40min per day ?

 

[Mithrandir]

I have to ask him exactly what is the best for me

 

[lymebite]

While this is not new information, it might be of interest to some. This link contains a detailed summary of the Dr. Wilden study of the effect of LLLT on audiometry changes. As has already been discussed in this thread, the results are quite remarkable and encouraging to anyone with a hearing loss considering phototherapy as a treatment.

The link is not a direct link - you will need to page down the screen almost halfway until you reach the Dr. Wilden study entitled "On the Effectiveness of Low Level Laser Light (LLLL) in the Inner Ear."

http://www.healinglightseminars.com...y/ear-hearing-loss-tinnitus-menieres-disease/

 

[attheedgeofscience]

Could you please let us know what you believe LASERS exactly do to the cochlea - do their fix bent/broken hair cells, or help nerve regeneration ? We know they help with ATP and cell regeneration but how does that translate to hair cells in our case - acoustic trauma damage

See this:

The chart illustrates how recovery of inner ear hair cells (using LLLT) takes place to a certain degree after introduction of an ototoxic agent (Gemcitabine, GM).

 

[linearb]

The chart illustrates how recovery of inner ear hair cells (using LLLT) takes place to a certain degree after introduction of an ototoxic agent (Gemcitabine, GM).

Do you think there's a time limit on when this is effective? My understanding about this study (correct me if I'm wrong) is that the laser was used fairly rapidly after the damage was created. Is there any reason to think it would (or would not) still be effective months or years later?

 

[lymebite]

Do you think there's a time limit on when this is effective? My understanding about this study (correct me if I'm wrong) is that the laser was used fairly rapidly after the damage was created. Is there any reason to think it would (or would not) still be effective months or years later?

In the Dr. Wilden study on audiometry improvements, the average duration of inner ear disease prior to LLLT treatment was 5.9 years.

In the Michael Zazzio study on hyperacusis, the condition of all the patients prior to LLLT treatment was considered to be chronic - with durations ranging from a minimum of six months up to 20 years.

 

[Bobby B]

Yes amazing - I hope that's happening inside my ears too.
I think those mouse studies were done in a short time frame obviousely the longer you wait the harder it going to be but for humans who knows.
Something must be happening because the sound quality has been improving a lot for me recently - tinnitus hasn't disappeared yet but sound is better that's an improvement after 3 months of LLLT

 

[lymebite]

My new laser system by Irradia of Sweden. Fitted with two 904 nm 240 mW multi-probes. Not for inner ear phototherapy (wrong type of tips and shuts off after 5 minutes), but thanks to this thread I have learned a lot about lasers in general and will use this one for running injuries (the type of tips and the 5 minute timer are well-suited to help with running marathons for many years). The build quality of this system is impressive - seems to be built like a tank. Much thanks to @FERNANDO GIL, @attheedgeofscience, @Bobby B, @Philip83, and many others for all the information posted.

 

[Valeriya]

Hello guys, selling my Luminex laser with

• Complete Luminex 867 and 670 System, Probe tip, Carry Case for $
• 6500. New one is $7,399.00

 

[Bobby B]

just get the lucky laser - well built and very reasonably priced given the power, two wave lenghts and good design for inner ear application
The issue with the longer wavelengths like 904nm is that you get closer to boiling water and the watery liquid inside the cochlea will start to heat up and you will get vertigo real fast when hitting the cochlea - sure if the angle is wrong then nothing bad happens but no healing either.

So the power setting will have to be very low and therefore the light healing power stays low as you are limited by the heat issue.

650 nm does not generate heat

The cells react to light not to the heat generated, heat which can be harmful if too much power is on.
I think Doc Wilden high power laser at his office is visible light that must be around 650nm as well

The several LLLT mouse studies were done on 810nm

 

[jdjd09]

Who do I email to buy a lucky laser? How long does it take to ship to the USA? How do you pay for it (western union, bitcoins, etc.)? Thanks for any information.

 

[Reinier]

This is a long shot, but I am asking anyway:
I remember reading in a document that infra-red tensions the oval or round window and perhaps the eardrum? I can't find the document any more.
Anyone else remember ever reading this?
It can be an explanation why LLLT could bring relief for some hyperacusis sufferers.

 

[tomytl]

Did someone read the full Harvard Study?

http://www.lux-spa-ibiza.com/index.php/en/publications

http://www.readcube.com/articles/10...chase_site_license=LICENSE_DENIED_NO_CUSTOMER

 

[Mithrandir]

Dr Wilden doesn't stop to talk to me about the Harvard study. He's very proud to work with LLLT.

I hope LLLT will function with me !

 

[lymebite]

Lucky Laser!