Low-Level Laser Therapy (LLLT) for Tinnitus — Experiences (Dr. Wilden, etc.)
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AAM
Member
I have been in touch with Michael Zazzio, Anne Harila and Dr Wilden. They are very helpful and kind. Michael requires 7.5 weeks for treatment (LLLT and rTMS), Anne 10 days and Dr Wilden 2 weeks.
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Christian78
Member
- Dec 17, 2013
- 965
- Tinnitus Since
- (Sep 2013)
- Cause of Tinnitus
- progressive tinnitus, time of expiring in next 3-6 months
Yes, why not in combination with oxygen tank under pressure, did you read about it also makes blood vessels widen and force healing and blood flow 8BUT BE WERE TO KEEP YOUR EARS AWAY FROM STRONG HISSING SOUND)
@Christian78
This is looking senseful but i readed that high oxygen can damage to inner ear.İs this possible?
This is looking senseful but i readed that high oxygen can damage to inner ear.İs this possible?
Member- Nov 25, 2015
- 1,705
- Tinnitus Since
- 11/2015
- Cause of Tinnitus
- Large caliber rifles&machine guns, +30 years of loud clubs
Hi guys - another very interesting , recent 21015 serious German study on why this type of light treatment helps the cells :
http://www.nature.com/articles/srep12029
http://www.nature.com/articles/srep12029
- Nov 25, 2015
- 1,705
- Tinnitus Since
- 11/2015
- Cause of Tinnitus
- Large caliber rifles&machine guns, +30 years of loud clubs
NIR laser light upregulates ATP synthesis
Interestingly, equal levels of red to near-infrared (NIR) light are used routinely in clinical praxis to accelerate the healing of complicated wounds34, to treat pain and inflammatory processes35. Coincidentally, the therapeutic use of NIR light plays an increasingly important role in aeronautic medicine. As the gravitational force increases or decreases, the cell function responds in a linear fashion. This poses significant health risks for astronauts in long-term spaceflight. The use of NASA LEDs (central wavelengths 670 nm) will significantly improve the medical care that is available to astronauts on long-term space missions36. For the majority of biostimulatory effects of NIR light described in the literature37, irradiation parameters were virtually identical to those found to reduce the viscosity of interfacial water layers. Apparently, irradiation with biologically tolerated levels of laser light shows pronounced effects in biological systems which are exposed to oxidative stress. Thus, we feel justified to assume that the irradiation upregulates ATP turnover by reducing the viscosity of the nanoscopic interfacial water layers which seem to control the efficiency of the mitochondrial nanomotor. The insight deduced from our laboratory experiments is expected to allow the improvement of the present theories and hypotheses of light-induced ATP synthesis, and promises to enhance the predictive capability of existing models. Explicitly, realistic models designed to explore the functioning of ATP synthase may have to consider interfacial viscosity gradients, within and around the nanoturbine. This aspect is of considerable biological interest and may lead to a shift in the paradigm of ATP synthesis.
Interestingly, equal levels of red to near-infrared (NIR) light are used routinely in clinical praxis to accelerate the healing of complicated wounds34, to treat pain and inflammatory processes35. Coincidentally, the therapeutic use of NIR light plays an increasingly important role in aeronautic medicine. As the gravitational force increases or decreases, the cell function responds in a linear fashion. This poses significant health risks for astronauts in long-term spaceflight. The use of NASA LEDs (central wavelengths 670 nm) will significantly improve the medical care that is available to astronauts on long-term space missions36. For the majority of biostimulatory effects of NIR light described in the literature37, irradiation parameters were virtually identical to those found to reduce the viscosity of interfacial water layers. Apparently, irradiation with biologically tolerated levels of laser light shows pronounced effects in biological systems which are exposed to oxidative stress. Thus, we feel justified to assume that the irradiation upregulates ATP turnover by reducing the viscosity of the nanoscopic interfacial water layers which seem to control the efficiency of the mitochondrial nanomotor. The insight deduced from our laboratory experiments is expected to allow the improvement of the present theories and hypotheses of light-induced ATP synthesis, and promises to enhance the predictive capability of existing models. Explicitly, realistic models designed to explore the functioning of ATP synthase may have to consider interfacial viscosity gradients, within and around the nanoturbine. This aspect is of considerable biological interest and may lead to a shift in the paradigm of ATP synthesis.
Christian78
Member
- Dec 17, 2013
- 965
- Tinnitus Since
- (Sep 2013)
- Cause of Tinnitus
- progressive tinnitus, time of expiring in next 3-6 months
pressure can demange if you have a cold and running nose, you must be able to at all times breath normally, if not say stop. they star lo lover pressure and then you say you wanna go out. mostly havin a cup of water to drink make pressus inside ear same so it is kind a ok...
It's been 18 days since you went for first audiogram after starting treatment. Any improvement?
I have had some high frequency hearing loss and mild to moderate tinnitus for about 14 years, following exposure to high levels of sound at a cinema watching Lord of the Rings--should have known better! I am now using Vielights to try to improve the Chronic Fatigue Syndrome I have been hit with more recently, and so am now thinking about using LLLT to improve my hearing--I have been trying to use the intranasal Vielights on my ears, but though they may have a small effect, they are not ideal, and are very low powered--7-10mW.
I gather that the best choice these days is the Lucky Laser system, if one can import it--any experience with Canada? I have also read quite a lot on LLLT generally, and am impressed with the evidence for the superiority of pulsed over continuous wave energy; do you know if the Lucky lasers can be pulsed, and if so at what frequency or frequencies? Or are there other lasers or LED systems anyone knows of that are adapted for use on the ears and can be pulsed? Thanks for any experienced advice!
I gather that the best choice these days is the Lucky Laser system, if one can import it--any experience with Canada? I have also read quite a lot on LLLT generally, and am impressed with the evidence for the superiority of pulsed over continuous wave energy; do you know if the Lucky lasers can be pulsed, and if so at what frequency or frequencies? Or are there other lasers or LED systems anyone knows of that are adapted for use on the ears and can be pulsed? Thanks for any experienced advice!
@ChrisH
If you email Lulu at Lucky Laser, she can tell you about pulsed vs. continuous and Canada. I do not think the Lucky Laser has a pulsed option, I think only continuous, but Lulu can say for sure. I think Canada is fine for receiving a shipment, I think the United States is the only tricky country. But again, Lulu should be able to tell you with certainty.
luckylaser@vip.163.com
For what it is worth, to my knowledge, all the studies on LLLT for inner ear therapy use continuous wave energy (Otoclinica, Zazzio, and Wilden). I am hardly an expert but what I have gathered from researching LLLT is that for the inner ear, pulsed accomplishes the same result as continuous, except that it takes more time to deliver the desired amount of joules to the cochlea with pulsed.
If you email Lulu at Lucky Laser, she can tell you about pulsed vs. continuous and Canada. I do not think the Lucky Laser has a pulsed option, I think only continuous, but Lulu can say for sure. I think Canada is fine for receiving a shipment, I think the United States is the only tricky country. But again, Lulu should be able to tell you with certainty.
luckylaser@vip.163.com
For what it is worth, to my knowledge, all the studies on LLLT for inner ear therapy use continuous wave energy (Otoclinica, Zazzio, and Wilden). I am hardly an expert but what I have gathered from researching LLLT is that for the inner ear, pulsed accomplishes the same result as continuous, except that it takes more time to deliver the desired amount of joules to the cochlea with pulsed.
- Nov 25, 2015
- 1,705
- Tinnitus Since
- 11/2015
- Cause of Tinnitus
- Large caliber rifles&machine guns, +30 years of loud clubs
The lucky laser has pulsed settings
You can vary from 1 hz to slower (1 second on one off is the slowest pulsed )
The advantage of pulsed is that you can deliver energy deeper into the tissue without harming the tissues as much as continuously delivering the same energy
Also pulsed is not simply half the effect - see the numbers on the study - it's far more than half
That's why they use pulsed in the Brain
Pulsed is better in my opinion
That what I use now
You can vary from 1 hz to slower (1 second on one off is the slowest pulsed )
The advantage of pulsed is that you can deliver energy deeper into the tissue without harming the tissues as much as continuously delivering the same energy
Also pulsed is not simply half the effect - see the numbers on the study - it's far more than half
That's why they use pulsed in the Brain
Pulsed is better in my opinion
That what I use now
- Nov 25, 2015
- 1,705
- Tinnitus Since
- 11/2015
- Cause of Tinnitus
- Large caliber rifles&machine guns, +30 years of loud clubs
@ChrisH
I cannot believe you got hearing loss from just watching one movie.
I have seen hundreds of movies in cinemas all around the world including some louder iMax ones but still none of them can cause permanent or even temporary hearing loss
Millions have seen lord of the rings in cinemas too...
I assume your T is anxiety caused which it can mask some high frequncy hearing on an audiogram even though your inner ear is in good shape
Definitely don't need lasers
I cannot believe you got hearing loss from just watching one movie.
I have seen hundreds of movies in cinemas all around the world including some louder iMax ones but still none of them can cause permanent or even temporary hearing loss
Millions have seen lord of the rings in cinemas too...
I assume your T is anxiety caused which it can mask some high frequncy hearing on an audiogram even though your inner ear is in good shape
Definitely don't need lasers
- Nov 25, 2015
- 1,705
- Tinnitus Since
- 11/2015
- Cause of Tinnitus
- Large caliber rifles&machine guns, +30 years of loud clubs
I only use pulsed now - with higher power to reach deeper
Pulsed don't give me vertigo on double the power that gives me vertigo on the 808 so its better no doubt
greggaway
Member
- Mar 5, 2016
- 2
- Tinnitus Since
- 26/1/2016
- Cause of Tinnitus
- Cumulative NIHL. (Exacerbated by slap on ear?)
Hi Bobby B,
I have tinnitus, slight sensitivity to sound, earfulness and hearing loss (although the pure tone audiometry results are within normal limits up to 8Khz of course I know I don't hear that well anymore...). The ENTs have no advice for me except to relax, exercise etc...
These is a slight 20DB at 8khz but I suspect I have gaps in the 2-6k ranges which affect my speech discrimination in places with background noise... I think the damage is accumulative NIHL, I am 37 and since moving to Hong Kong all the evening outings in bars have taken their toll. Needless to say that loud places are now a thing of the past for me.
I have been following your progress for the past couple of months and after reading yours and ATEOS, Fernando, I decided to buy the Lucky Laser.
I received it over ten days ago and have been using it at 120mw/650nm for 15 minutes. Just had a 2 day break and I notice slight improvement in hearing. It could be placebo so only time and an audiogram in 6months time will tell.
I am wondering what is your treatment protocol, I don't have the pulsed option on my lucky laser (went for the 2 probe one only) but I would like to use the 808nm - if so what is the recommended power for it? I just don't want to do any damage.
Also, I am will be going to see Dr Wilden in a couple of months as I need to go to Europe anyway. I am hoping to have some success with LLLT. I'll take even a 20% improvement of my current situation.
Thanks for reading!
Gregory
- Nov 25, 2015
- 1,705
- Tinnitus Since
- 11/2015
- Cause of Tinnitus
- Large caliber rifles&machine guns, +30 years of loud clubs
Yeah HK is loud - not just the bars in LKF but the way people speak and they feel compelled to put silly loud music even in regular restaurants
Based on studies the way this works best and also taking into account Zazzio protocol - is to use high power In order to even reach the cochlea though skin flesh and bone but short times like a few minutes to not cause damage and do it only twice a week .
The study on rats ear cochlear cells show that the effect starts 2 weeks after exposure to light radiation so overdoing it may be detrimental in fact . It will take time though.
You need to be sure to hit the right angles too.
I am planning to do a basic CT scan just find out where my cochlea is located becuase if your off a few degrees then it won't work - or make sure to set different angles during your 15 minutes session
Not sure why your device does not have pulsed - it's the round circle wiht the dots on the control panel
Based on studies the way this works best and also taking into account Zazzio protocol - is to use high power In order to even reach the cochlea though skin flesh and bone but short times like a few minutes to not cause damage and do it only twice a week .
The study on rats ear cochlear cells show that the effect starts 2 weeks after exposure to light radiation so overdoing it may be detrimental in fact . It will take time though.
You need to be sure to hit the right angles too.
I am planning to do a basic CT scan just find out where my cochlea is located becuase if your off a few degrees then it won't work - or make sure to set different angles during your 15 minutes session
Not sure why your device does not have pulsed - it's the round circle wiht the dots on the control panel
- Nov 25, 2015
- 1,705
- Tinnitus Since
- 11/2015
- Cause of Tinnitus
- Large caliber rifles&machine guns, +30 years of loud clubs
Another piece of the puzzle in hearing loss : nerves that connect the inner ear and brain get damaged a few days following acoustic trauma to the hair cell
These nerves could be healed to a degree with LLLT based on this study but there is a fine line were too much is detrimental as written here. And also time is crucial,too long a wait and it won't work.
Very interesting study , using the same 808nm wavelentgh that is available on the lucky laser
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0103348
These nerves could be healed to a degree with LLLT based on this study but there is a fine line were too much is detrimental as written here. And also time is crucial,too long a wait and it won't work.
Very interesting study , using the same 808nm wavelentgh that is available on the lucky laser
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0103348
- Nov 25, 2015
- 1,705
- Tinnitus Since
- 11/2015
- Cause of Tinnitus
- Large caliber rifles&machine guns, +30 years of loud clubs
As for how much power and time - tough question but if the session was successful in terms of intensity, time and angle - overall my impressions are that:
1) Sound quality improves fairly quickly after the session, sometimes just minutes, and remains the same (does not get worse again) providing you do over-protect your ears. Very important point !
You definitely need to find ways to monitor sound quality - use apps, good quality music at low volume , frequency sweeps etc.. this will help you guide you if you are in the right direction or not because listening to your Tinnitus isn't going to work - besides driving you nuts
With the high frequency hair cell loss typical of noise trauma, the brain compensates by increasing the gain on the highs so that bass frequencies looses a lot of power and sound weak to the brain even though those are fine on the Audiogram
Look for improved bass sound, even your own voice may start sounding lower if healing really takes place. It did in my case.
2) T perception is that its becoming louder, sometimes more piercing or changing in pitch but overall more overbearing or more tonal, cleaner but clearer sounding.
This starts a few hours later after the session and remains high for hour to days but usually goes back to more or less the same as always - give and take (no guarantees though !)
Again, as there is more sound coming from outside via the ears into the brain, the brain can lower the gain on the high frequencies which in turns makes the "brain T" portion to be perceived more distinct to the brain and this with a bit of stress, it quickly becomes the "threat" loud T which is well described by people with very little inner ear damage but Anxiety T on this forum
3) Reactive T is lowered after a lengthy time - weeks or months.
Very important step to habituation.
Once reactive T is gone the brain can have a real shot at shutting down this sound...LLLT won't cure your T it only helps the brain habituating to it...
4) less H too over time too
I would stick to twice a week maximum, high power short time, 3 or 4 angles during 5 minutes each angle to cover all possibilities of cochlea placement and then re-assess after a month.
1) Sound quality improves fairly quickly after the session, sometimes just minutes, and remains the same (does not get worse again) providing you do over-protect your ears. Very important point !
You definitely need to find ways to monitor sound quality - use apps, good quality music at low volume , frequency sweeps etc.. this will help you guide you if you are in the right direction or not because listening to your Tinnitus isn't going to work - besides driving you nuts
With the high frequency hair cell loss typical of noise trauma, the brain compensates by increasing the gain on the highs so that bass frequencies looses a lot of power and sound weak to the brain even though those are fine on the Audiogram
Look for improved bass sound, even your own voice may start sounding lower if healing really takes place. It did in my case.
2) T perception is that its becoming louder, sometimes more piercing or changing in pitch but overall more overbearing or more tonal, cleaner but clearer sounding.
This starts a few hours later after the session and remains high for hour to days but usually goes back to more or less the same as always - give and take (no guarantees though !)
Again, as there is more sound coming from outside via the ears into the brain, the brain can lower the gain on the high frequencies which in turns makes the "brain T" portion to be perceived more distinct to the brain and this with a bit of stress, it quickly becomes the "threat" loud T which is well described by people with very little inner ear damage but Anxiety T on this forum
3) Reactive T is lowered after a lengthy time - weeks or months.
Very important step to habituation.
Once reactive T is gone the brain can have a real shot at shutting down this sound...LLLT won't cure your T it only helps the brain habituating to it...
4) less H too over time too
I would stick to twice a week maximum, high power short time, 3 or 4 angles during 5 minutes each angle to cover all possibilities of cochlea placement and then re-assess after a month.
- Nov 25, 2015
- 1,705
- Tinnitus Since
- 11/2015
- Cause of Tinnitus
- Large caliber rifles&machine guns, +30 years of loud clubs
This study shows why pulsed is better : you can reach much deeper into the tissue without causing thermal damage
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2933784/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2933784/
@greggaway
If you read through the entire thread (yes, it is very long) you will find much good advice from @FERNANDO GIL on the recommended power for the 808 nm laser (and the 650 nm laser). Key thing to keep in mind is that while the Lucky Laser can go up to 900 mW, the advice is that that is way too high - the maximum level should be more like 300 or 400 mW. Personally I would recommend you start much lower - say 100 mW - and work up gradually. I started at 300 mW and that was a bit much, got a big spike that went away, small spikes apparently are a good sign, but not too much.
One approach to consider is the Otoclinica protocol, which is modeled after the Zazzio protocol (see the "Method and Materials - Other Data" box for details on the laser power and amount of joules):
http://www.researchposters.com/Posters/AAOHNSF/AAO2014/SP327.pdf
And I am sure Dr. Wilden will have good advice when you see him. Please consider posting what you learn, we would all be very interested to hear his thoughts in general, and especially with regard to the best protocol to use with the Lucky Laser.
If you read through the entire thread (yes, it is very long) you will find much good advice from @FERNANDO GIL on the recommended power for the 808 nm laser (and the 650 nm laser). Key thing to keep in mind is that while the Lucky Laser can go up to 900 mW, the advice is that that is way too high - the maximum level should be more like 300 or 400 mW. Personally I would recommend you start much lower - say 100 mW - and work up gradually. I started at 300 mW and that was a bit much, got a big spike that went away, small spikes apparently are a good sign, but not too much.
One approach to consider is the Otoclinica protocol, which is modeled after the Zazzio protocol (see the "Method and Materials - Other Data" box for details on the laser power and amount of joules):
http://www.researchposters.com/Posters/AAOHNSF/AAO2014/SP327.pdf
And I am sure Dr. Wilden will have good advice when you see him. Please consider posting what you learn, we would all be very interested to hear his thoughts in general, and especially with regard to the best protocol to use with the Lucky Laser.
bill 112
Member
I'm pretty useless when it comes to stuff like this but does anyone have a link to the Lucky Laser page,or know where I can purchase one?Thanks.
@bill 112, see this post from earlier in the thread:
https://www.tinnitustalk.com/thread...riences-dr-wilden-etc.295/page-42#post-171126
https://www.tinnitustalk.com/thread...riences-dr-wilden-etc.295/page-42#post-171126
bill 112
Member
Hi folks,
I developed tinnitus about a month ago. I realised it only stayed in one ear, and later realised that I use infrared heat lamps on the other side of my head every day. I've researched LLLT for a few other conditions and had some successes using cheap, non medical devices. I came across "tinnitool" before finding this thread. This uses 650nm at 5mW, so I figured I'd get a cheap 10mW device and line it up with my ear drum using a mic boom stand. I haven't read all the thread but much higher power is mentioned.
Has anyone had success with this power range using visible red? I think you could use a lot more at this wavelength safely without cooking.
I developed tinnitus about a month ago. I realised it only stayed in one ear, and later realised that I use infrared heat lamps on the other side of my head every day. I've researched LLLT for a few other conditions and had some successes using cheap, non medical devices. I came across "tinnitool" before finding this thread. This uses 650nm at 5mW, so I figured I'd get a cheap 10mW device and line it up with my ear drum using a mic boom stand. I haven't read all the thread but much higher power is mentioned.
Has anyone had success with this power range using visible red? I think you could use a lot more at this wavelength safely without cooking.
@Res
If you do a word search in this thread on "Tinnitool" you will see that it has come up a number of times in the past. I am not aware that anyone has reported improvement with it. The key thing about LLLT effectiveness is how many joules you deliver to the desired area with the laser. Joules are a function of time and power. With only 5 mW, it would takes many hours per day to deliver a material amount of joules.
There is good information on LLLT at this website. Especially page down to the chart in the section "How much power is enough?" which shows the relationship between laser power, time, and joules.
http://www.coldlasers.org
If you do a word search in this thread on "Tinnitool" you will see that it has come up a number of times in the past. I am not aware that anyone has reported improvement with it. The key thing about LLLT effectiveness is how many joules you deliver to the desired area with the laser. Joules are a function of time and power. With only 5 mW, it would takes many hours per day to deliver a material amount of joules.
There is good information on LLLT at this website. Especially page down to the chart in the section "How much power is enough?" which shows the relationship between laser power, time, and joules.
http://www.coldlasers.org
Thanks lymebite, I suspected that but wondered if the ear drum was particularly sensitive. BTW a minimum treatment time seems necessary for at least some LLLT treatments, along with energy dose (and frequency).
- Nov 25, 2015
- 1,705
- Tinnitus Since
- 11/2015
- Cause of Tinnitus
- Large caliber rifles&machine guns, +30 years of loud clubs
If power is too low it won't penetrate the cochela and nerves past the skin and flesh
If the beam is too concentrated - like a regular laser beam - it can burn skin and destroy cells due to heat concentrated , and be dangerous
and also if the beam is too narrow coverage will be bad , target cells off and it won't work
the "lasers" we use here have special optics designed to defocus and spread the energy so they can be used safely and cover the target cells
If the beam is too concentrated - like a regular laser beam - it can burn skin and destroy cells due to heat concentrated , and be dangerous
and also if the beam is too narrow coverage will be bad , target cells off and it won't work
the "lasers" we use here have special optics designed to defocus and spread the energy so they can be used safely and cover the target cells
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