Low-Level Laser Therapy (LLLT) for Tinnitus — Experiences (Dr. Wilden, etc.)

[bill 112]

What's the most affordable good laser does anyone know?Willing to give this a try with corresponding audiograms to see if there's any improvement?Anyone help me out?

 

[Bobby B]

if you have no hearing loss under 8khz and can hear fine up to 17khz what are you trying to improve ? It doesn't get better than that

You need to have some hearing damage first to repair the damage - laser isn't going to give you superhuman hearing abilities

 

[FERNANDO GIL]

Thanks lymebite, I suspected that but wondered if the ear drum was particularly sensitive. BTW a minimum treatment time seems necessary for at least some LLLT treatments, along with energy dose (and frequency).

That is answer we all trying to find. It will depend from person to person. Tintinool is a scam.

 

[bill 112]

if you have no hearing loss under 8khz and can hear fine up to 17khz what are you trying to improve ? It doesn't get better than that

You need to have some hearing damage first to repair the damage - laser isn't going to give you superhuman hearing abilities

I have severe Hyperacusis and distortion so there has to be damage to some degree,what exactly I don't know but I was told that LLLT maybe beneficial?A friend of mine is an audiologist and he done a custom hearing test for me today,from 100hz increasing by 100hz all the way to 10,000hz.I could hear clearly every tone he played.He then played 11,12,13,14,15,16 and 17 hz tones and I could also hear these but my ears and T went crazy from these frequencies.He suspects there's damage to some degree but what exactly he doesn't knowMy T and H are noise induced.

 

[FERNANDO GIL]

I have severe Hyperacusis and distortion so there has to be damage to some degree,what exactly I don't know but I was told that LLLT maybe beneficial?A friend of mine is an audiologist and he done a custom hearing test for me today,from 100hz increasing by 100hz all the way to 10,000hz.I could hear clearly every tone he played.He then played 11,12,13,14,15,16 and 17 hz tones and I could also hear these but my ears and T went crazy from these frequencies.He suspects there's damage to some degree but what exactly he doesn't knowMy T and H are noise induced.

You need to make an audiogram all the way to the 17 Hz. Is the only way to know if your problem is on the Low or on the high frequencies. H is the first symptom LLLT "cure" if we could say that. If you have a chance try it.

 

[Bobby B]

Maybe contact Zazzio in Sweden - he has a good protocol wiht powerful lasers targeted at H and he is a real ear doc so he can give you a more targeted Treatment

 

[Ecip]

I'm considering purchasing this:
http://www.tinnitool.com/en/therapie_moeglichkeiten/

Any thoughts?

 

[lymebite]

I'm considering purchasing this:
http://www.tinnitool.com/en/therapie_moeglichkeiten/

Any thoughts?

If you do a word search on "TinniTool" in this thread, you will see it has come up many times and been discussed quite a bit. The consensus seems to be that it is too low powered to be effective.

 

[Ecip]

If you do a word search on "TinniTool" in this thread, you will see it has come up many times and been discussed quite a bit. The consensus seems to be that it is too low powered to be effective.

Crap.

 

[lymebite]

@Ecip

Don't give up hope - there are higher powered lasers available that some people have reported to be effective. The Combi-Laser (or "Lucky Laser") seems to be regarded in this thread as the best choice ($1,600 for the 2 probe model and $2,100 for the 4 probe model, both plus shipping). There are lower cost options such as the Konftec, which is about the same price as the TinniTool but much more powerful. This comparison chart shows the different options:

http://www.konftec.com/html/EN/Auricular_Laser_Comparison.htm

However, the chart leaves out the Combi-Laser / Lucky Laser which arguably is the best option of all. There is a lot of discussion in this thread about that laser.

 

[FERNANDO GIL]

Crap.

yes

 

[Res]

Following up on my previous post I tried a red LED flashlight, tinnitus is improving since I started. My tinnitus is probably salicylate induced and expected to improve anyway (it was not however). I've posted the information on my blog, including energy tests (mW/cm2), but not including the wavelength unfortunately. It is visible red and probably 600-660.
http://www.resonantfm.com/can-a-red-led-flashlight-have-beneficial-health-effects/

 

[jdjd09]

So, I have had this issue for about 4-5 months now. Is it too late to get laser treatment at this point for hearing loss gains or T gains at all?

 

[FERNANDO GIL]

So, I have had this issue for about 4-5 months now. Is it too late to get laser treatment at this point for hearing loss gains or T gains at all?

No, if you have a chance try it.

 

[jdjd09]

https://www.researchgate.net/public...g_loss_NIHL_with_low_level_laser_therapy_LLLT

Seems like it can work, but it's a waste after it's too late....sigh.

 

[jeanoroid]

I recently inherited my father-in-law's laser. It's a cumbersome machine with an assortment of attachments, including the piece similar to the one shown here.
I'd like to give it a shot - and am looking for some input on where to fire this thing (ear location). Intensity and duration?
My FiL is a veterinarian and swears by this machine - but the book that comes with it is very vague on T..

Any help would be greatly appreciated..

 

[Bobby B]

If your looking for some input then let us know what the wave lenght (nm) and power (mw) and beam size - those are essential informations

Also, it would be great to ask your FIL why exactly he swears by this machine, what kind results he got etc.. I assume he treats horses for injury ?

There isn't much data on tinnitus and the consensus is that it does not really cure T but rather helps with H and improved hearing ranges. It certainly did not cure my T but perhaps made it softer and more pleasant in pitch - but I am not done yet so we will see.

I only hear my T in very quiet places now - and of course while wearing ear protection but before I heard it everywhere so that's an improvement in my book.
But I am wearing ear protection pretty much all the time so its hard to judge the "everywhere" part - the noisiest place must be my office at 45-50db anything above that and in goes my ear muffs or ears plugs. I don't hear my T in the office anymore unless I really try hard to look for it or have a spike, stress, no sleep etc..

There are ups and downs on light therapy thats for sure.

Make sure you protect your ears for a few months at least

I had very loud T to begin but others may get different results

 

[jdjd09]

If your looking for some input then let us know what the wave lenght (nm) and power (mw) and beam size - those are essential informations

Also, it would be great to ask your FIL why exactly he swears by this machine, what kind results he got etc.. I assume he treats horses for injury ?

There isn't much data on tinnitus and the consensus is that it does not really cure T but rather helps with H and improved hearing ranges. It certainly did not cure my T but perhaps made it softer and more pleasant in pitch - but I am not done yet so we will see.

I only hear my T in very quiet places now - and of course while wearing ear protection but before I heard it everywhere so that's an improvement in my book.
But I am wearing ear protection pretty much all the time so its hard to judge the "everywhere" part - the noisiest place must be my office at 45-50db anything above that and in goes my ear muffs or ears plugs. I don't hear my T in the office anymore unless I really try hard to look for it or have a spike, stress, no sleep etc..

There are ups and downs on light therapy thats for sure.

Make sure you protect your ears for a few months at least

I had very loud T to begin but others may get different results

@Bobby B , I'm about to buy the Lucky Laser. Can I ask if its too late to regain hearing after hearing loss occurred about 5 months ago?
Just curious if I am wasting money at this point. Or if I can do this for a year and regain some hearing.

Also, I assume you have the lucky laser. What is the best way to use it in my case? I have hearing loss in one ear (other ear is fine). And it is 8khz 40db, 6khz 30db, and 4khz 30db. Rest are 20db and up. Other ear is 10db and up.

I'm 28 years old btw. Thanks for any information.

 

[lymebite]

Can I ask if its too late to regain hearing after hearing loss occurred about 5 months ago?

In the Dr. Wilden study on audiometry improvements, the average duration of inner ear disease prior to LLLT treatment was 5.9 years.

The link below is not a direct link - you will need to page down the screen almost halfway until you reach the Dr. Wilden study entitled "On the Effectiveness of Low Level Laser Light (LLLL) in the Inner Ear."

http://www.healinglightseminars.com...y/ear-hearing-loss-tinnitus-menieres-disease/

My personal opinion - nothing about this is guaranteed but you can't win if you don't play.

 

[Bobby B]

You won't know if it helped until you do it for a full year while protecting your ears from sounds above 60db.

No one can answer that - the acute stage can last a few months later perhaps but the sooner the better.

But more importantly, this device can be used as prevention from future noise damage and acute phase hair cell protection for future noise exposure since you are young - who knows what can happen
All you need to have is one explosion, air bag, sirene when you didn't wear plugs etc.. to instantly get more inner ear damage and that's where this device will "shine" so to speak.
Also make sure to stock some prednisone at home just in case as well

 

[bell]

It's been 18 days since you went for first audiogram after starting treatment. Any improvement?

Hi @Zechariah you are very nice to ask.
Yes, I made an audiogram that day as I felt my hearing was improving very much.
The audiogram was made but the ENT of the hearing aid center where I bought my hearing aids (as making audiograms there is free of charge for me).
Althougt I felt my hearing was improving very much the audiograms concluded that it only improved 10db in some frecuencies and nothing in other frecuencies , and I felt a Little disappointed as that results were somethig that did`t match with my "improving feeling", and I decided not to share the audiogram it that time, because if I showed it somebody could tell that 10 dbs are not conclusive results..... or that therapy is not workinf for me....or something like that , so I do prefer to wait to show you more audiogram that show any progression and more conclusive improvements.

By now I am making home audiograms every week with my hearing aids and a computer program of the hearing aid brand, and then I write the results in my notebook , and by now the results are that I have a 10 db and 15 db recover in some frecuencies and even 20 db gaining in just one frecuency, and I find it really incredible!

So my conclusions are that at least for me LLLT is working and improving my hearing loss little by little.
This summer I will go to Ibiza for a high dosage treatment I hope it will help in my recovery.....

On the other side after 3,5 months of LLLT my 10-years-old tinnitus is still there, the sound of my tinnitus has changed and it is maybe a little soft, though I dont remenber very well the volumen of it at the beggining of the treatment,but the main difference is that it sounds in a higher frecuency, but it is still there.

Maybe in one or 2months I will go again to the ENT of the hearing aid center to make a new "oficial" audiogram and of course I will share my improvements wiht you.

 

[Bobby B]

@bell
So you had acoustic trauma 10 years ago and doing LLLT recently still improvec the hearing range ? That is quite a result

Can you please remind us of your irradiation protocol, how many minutes, how often and what frequency and power in mw and how is it done - inside ear canal and what device do you use
Thanks

 

[Reinier]

and by now the results are that I have a 10 db and 15 db recover in some frecuencies and even 20 db gaining in just one frecuency, and I find it really incredible!

I am not disputing anything. I accept that this is what you experience. I only want to understand.
I looked at you're audiogram. I am not a doctor, but it doesn't look like a typical NIHL (damage in inner ear). Perhaps this is why you experience an improvement even after 10 years, with LLLT.

10 dB already is a big improvement. Let alone 15 or 20! Naturally depending on which frequencies the improvement has taken place. If It is on lower frequencies it is not so apparent. If it is on 4kHz it is much more noticeable.

Unfortunately my audiogram shows typical NIHL and therefore damage in the inner ear. So I am afraid for me this will not work.
I will keep reading your posts with interest.

 

[Bobby B]

Hi guys - good news my T went to almost unnoticeable levels since this morning. And stays that way so far.

First time It ever happened in 6 months to this day (November 5 - 2015 rifle & machine gun shooting ) !

I did crank up the power again on the laser 3 days ago, I did 20 minutes 120mw on the 650 nm then 10 minutes 450mw on the 808 pulsed 1hz inside ear, then 2 minutes 600mw at 3cm ...then a few hours later later 6 minutes on the much more powerful polarized light device "super lizer" - this is about 600mw ,wide range polarized beam not laser , with peak at 1000nm so it goes deep into tissues past bones and the beam diameter is wide so it covers a larger zone inside.

This last session gave me a slight deep, on- and -off ear pain on my bad ear, which lasted 1 day so though for myself :

Shit I overdid it !

I must have hurt something inside because in addition to the slight pain which stayed a full day I got a loud T spike for 1 day..

My good ear, "control ear" underwent the same treatment but resulted in no pain at all.
Proves that the "wound" has not yet healed on the bad ear.

But it must have done something good after all, because as I walked to the gym, outside in my quiet residential area at night, 2 days later, no cars, no one outside as it was late, just a bit of wind and rustling leaves..I noticed that for the first time in 6 months I could not hear T ..just silence and the light wind on the leaves..sounded like a dream..I almost could not believe it.

No pain No gain !

So i did some weight lifting at the gym, and of course I am wearing huge ear muffs because of the gym music and guys dropping weights which is loud - so yes I heard my T back again that's a given ...no way around that if you wear big ear muffs or plugs you will hear your T so I tried to concentrate on the exercise instead, but the next day - today... Its down to 0.5/10 in my quiet living room .

So low is my T that a lot of times my mind is able to shut it totally out, without effort , as soon as I am a little busy doing something... doing anything besides trying to judge or think about T !

Pretty cool I am quite excited here guys, I didn't expect that much from LLLT and its been a long, exhausting 6 months with this constant loud air leak/tea kettle sound in my head 24/7 and with high pitched powerful T sounds mixed in it...the famous "zings" metallic wheel sound.

The T sound is still there if I plug my ears in my quiet room, and there are small mini spikes from time to time if I am stressed but those are only very weak, and thin.

With ears plugged its like 1/10 of what it was at first. Much easier to habituate just like Doc. Wilden was saying to Hansi Cross as written on his blog.

The sound level required to mask it is also lower, and I don't hear it over music anymore - on low volume of course...no more damage !!

I'll keep doing the treatment for the next 6 months at least, and maybe even for life as a prevention measure, and keep on wearing ear muffs outside mostly, or ear plugs , in noisy streets etc.. whenever sound over 60db is going to hit me..

If this is what it takes to have near total silence at home then I will gladly do it for the rest of my life.

 

[Foncky]

That's really great Bobby. Are you sure that LLLT helped you this much ? We have to consider natural improvement too, right ? As you protect your ears a lot.

Can I PM you about the laser you bought and the way you use it ? That's the most serious thing I can try I guess.

Enjoy the silence.

 

[Bobby B]

I have been doing LLLT for 5 months
Each time I got a T spike after the session, but followed by some sound improvements
I had ear pain twice due to LLLT and after that the best ever sound improvement I ever got so I don't think its "natural" as the timing has been always after after those power sessions.

Dont' PM me put questions here we need to share info

A lot has been already discussed here so maybe take some time to read this thread first

 

[bill 112]

I've just purchased mineI've had T since 2012(mild)and H since 2014 any hope of improvement?Any advice?

 

[Bobby B]

not protecting ears while doing LLLT is kind of like avoiding proteins after doing weightlifting - you need both. You don't want those hair cells and nerves wasting energy dealing with noise, they should heal and light helps heal better but yes its all natural..no chemical stuff or side effects besides a bit of ear pain at times but like I said, no pain no gain just like at the gym..

 

[Reinier]

Each time I got a T spike after the session, but followed by some sound improvements

This is something I do not understand. Some people assume it is a good sign if they experience a spike after LLLT.
Why is that a good sign? Because something is happening inside the middle or even inner ear? We can only speculate and assume it is a good sign because it suits us better? Do we progress more if the spikes are more pronounced?
Perhaps a spike is a sign that we overdid the LLLT.
No pain no gain?

@Bobby B you mention very high powers regarding LLLT. Usually I see 30mW. You mention ten times or more this power. This is not inside your ear surely?

 

[Bobby B]

Inside the ears yes

In this thread there is the protocol done by Anne in Norway

https://www.tinnitustalk.com/threads/low-level-laser-therapy-lllt-for-tinnitus-—-experiences-dr-wilden-etc.295/page-36#post-158425

So you can see that even though its "high power" compared to 30mw which is nothing, its actually much less than what Anne has been doing and she has been doing it for decades without problems so yes its safe at 500mw even for an hour and I only do 10 min.

Not sure why T spikes - most people who had improvement on LLLT mentioned spikes. Maybe new connections are made and the brain struggles with new signals not sure...
Many people on AM-101 reported the same story - T goes up for days or even weeks before going further down.

As I type this, my T has gone up again this evening and quite loudly in fact, but the sound is different, higher in pitch and very unstable, sort of left/right fluctuating ups and down as opposed to the constant hiss I had before so we'll see tomorrow after a nigh of sleep how it goes.

I don't expect this to be a smooth ride in terms of T but as long as there are changes, it means that something good is happening.

The best and most important part to judge is how does sound quality change and H - if H gets worse I would be worried but its getting better so does hearing range - I check the same music everyday and the generalfuzz slide and the small gaps seem to be filling in.